Would US government allow true democracy?

[RedMarxist]

Would the US government, if massive protests like in Greece occur, allow true democracy, or would they suppress it?

One thing that bothers me is this: If true democracy seems so great and is working in Greece, why does no one in America DEMAND it from this country as well? why no protests?

[Obs]

If true democracy seems so great and is working in Greece
There's, uh... no true democracy in Greece. True democracy would require the abolition of classes.

And it doesn't matter whether or not the US government would suppress protests. Creating socialism, or true democracy for that matter, is not a matter of asking the ruling class for concessions - it's a matter of utterly destroying the ruling class and overtaking their dominance over society. If they decide not to fight back, well, that just makes them easier to string up. But don't count on that happening.

[RedMarxist]

I meant the protests and those assemblies they created.

I mean, would the ruling classes of any country just give you more democracy, or would you have to overthrow the government yourself?

would peace or violence be more effective in removing the current regime?

[piet11111]

What gain could they have by giving us real democracy when it means they will lose their power wealth and privileges ?

You can bet they would use all the force necessary to put down a revolution killing thousands wont bother them.

[RedMarxist]

OK, so fight fire with fire then?

[Obs]

OK, so fight fire with fire then?
Not sure exactly what you're asking here, but thing is this: we can't win if we idealistically insist on being more "principled" than our enemy, because we simply don't have the means to make that work. If we had trillions of dollars to be able to compete with the bourgeois military, maybe we could avoid having to car bomb people's place of work, taking hostages, whatever we end up doing (and are doing if you count those in the world who've gotten around to taking up arms). But since we're so materially impoverished in comparison to our enemy, we need to use whatever means are necessary. Is taking Rupert Murdoch's grandkids hostage for money a dick move? Absolutely. But wouldn't you do it if it helped the struggle?

The question is not "how can we be better than the bougeoisie?". It's "how can we beat the bourgeoisie most effectively, with the smallest possible harm to the working class?".

[RedMarxist]

fight fire with fire as in "use violence against them as they will use violence no doubt against you."

so your advocating terrorism? so to destroy the Bourgeoisie your actually telling me to use Red Army Faction tactics? WTF?

I think when a revolution comes using terrorist tactics will only serve to make large segments of the population, even the proletariat, hate us very much.

terrorism scares peoples shitless.

Look, I no doubt believe that a struggle must be forced here in America, as it wnt come on its own, but come ON. terrorism?

[bietan jarrai]

There is no way a capitalist regime can be overthrown without violence. It depends on what you define as terrorism. I think terrorism is what NATO is doing in Libya, for example. Don't expect a peaceful revolution, when the time comes the people will be ready to implement socialism by any means.

I don't really get what you mean by true democracy, and why you brought up Greece, I mean if people are unhappy that's certainly no true democracy, right? If true democracy is socialism, then no, no capitalist government would "accept" true democracy, as it is not something to be accepted by the bourgeoisie, but to be imposed by the people.

Back to terrorism, using terrorism to fight imperialism is certainly wrong. But to fight for liberation, as you see in Colombia or in Euskadi, it's an acceptable method, and it works.

[Obs]

fight fire with fire as in "use violence against them as they will use violence no doubt against you."

so your advocating terrorism? so to destroy the Bourgeoisie your actually telling me to use Red Army Faction tactics? WTF?

I think when a revolution comes using terrorist tactics will only serve to make large segments of the population, even the proletariat, hate us very much.

terrorism scares peoples shitless.

Look, I no doubt believe that a struggle must be forced here in America, as it wnt come on its own, but come ON. terrorism?

Not right now, obviously. First, we work on getting people on our side by convincing them of the necessity of a new society. Otherwise, you're right, using violent means will turn people away and generally be a poor choice. That said, I don't think a lot of the workers who get harassed by pigs every day, who work overtime 7 days a week, would be hard to convince that violence is okay when directed at the enemy. That's been my experience with people where I'm from, at least. The objection I hear the most to riots and violence isn't "that's wrong" but rather "I don't want to go to jail and lose a shot at decent, stable employment", which is totally understandable. It's also why we need to recruit first, to make it seem feasible that we can actually win this.

Once that's done, we can start upping the ante and taking the fight to the bourgeoisie, hit 'em where it hurts. If that means robbing their banks, setting fire to their houses or straight up killing them, then that's what we'll do. But whatever we do needs to be with a clear-cut goal of destroying capitalism - obviously, as soon as it devolves into pursuing meaningless vendettas against bourgeois individuals, it harms the struggle and makes it lose momentum. That said, I do personally like the thought of Rex Tillerson or any of those assholes hogtied and cut open like a fish on live TV.

[Commie73]

Would the US government, if massive protests like in Greece occur, allow true democracy, or would they suppress it?

One thing that bothers me is this: If true democracy seems so great and is working in Greece, why does no one in America DEMAND it from this country as well? why no protests?


I would question the rhetoric of "real democracy now" that is coming out of a lot of the movements in spain and greece etc. What we need to be fighting for is not an idealist conception of liberal democracy, but a radically alternative system. I think these movements have the potential to become a genuinly revolutionary movement, but it will require a change in political direction, and to argue for communism against the liberals etc who would move us away from a criticism of capitalism itself. The CWO/ICT have quite a good article on this topic. (http://www.leftcom.org/en/articles/2011-06-30/in-uk-and-elsewhere-global-resistance-has-to-be-based-on-working-class-struggle)

To answer your main question on if a movement for real democracy emerged, would the US government allow it, the answer would be no. I think any movement in the US would be met with similar levels of repression as in greece, unless as in wisconsin, the police joined the protestors, but this sort of movement would be about more than union rights and so i dont think you would get that support.

[minimali]

US allow...will contradict true democracy...

[RedMarxist]

Christ, I'm surrounded on this forum by a bunch of pseudo terrorist nut jobs who most likely don't have the balls to actually carry a revolution out!

Look, I know terrorism can be effective. How do you fight and enemy that can just blow you up without a moment's hesitation? one that disappears into the shadows just as soon as they appeared? but is it really the answer?

I also know that the rich have the real power in America/world. The rich fund the armies fighting against FARC/Naxals/NPA etc. But does it justify killing 'em off one by one, hunting them down like rats?

explain to me, hypothetically, just how you, if you were leader of an ultra left terrorist movement, how the fuck you would wage your "JUST" movement to free the proletariat? if you can't come up with spec. strategies, then its all just talk. you probably are a lazy person sitting at their computer without a job.

[Commie73]

Christ, I'm surrounded on this forum by a bunch of pseudo terrorist nut jobs who most likely don't have the balls to actually carry a revolution out!


I would recommend reading "you cant blow up a social relationship - the anarchist case against terrorism". (http://libcom.org/library/you-cant-blow-up-social-relationship)

Here is what it has to say on the role of revolutionaries:


The job for revolutionaries is not to take up the gun but to engage in the long, hard work of publicising an understanding of this society. We must build a movement which links the many problems and issues people face with the need for revolutionary change, which attacks all the pseudo-solutions - both individual and social - offered within this society, which seeks to demystify those solutions offered by the authoritarian left and instead to place the total emphasis on the need for self-activity and self-organisation on the part of those people willing to take up issues. We need to present ideas about a socialism based on equality and freedom.


If we want to change the world, we have to accept that this is going to be met with violence from the ruling class. Its called being realistic, even peacefull reform movements have in the past been met with battons to the head. We dont need urban guerrillas, but we do need to recognize that a revolution is going to involve some leval of violence.

[Obs]

Christ, I'm surrounded on this forum by a bunch of pseudo terrorist nut jobs who most likely don't have the balls to actually carry a revolution out!
That's a big fucking mouth for a rich kid who only just decided he wanted to be a communist and stick it to his parents. How about you stop acting like you know shit and read what people are writing.


Look, I know terrorism can be effective. How do you fight and enemy that can just blow you up without a moment's hesitation? one that disappears into the shadows just as soon as they appeared? but is it really the answer?
YES. THAT IS EXACTLY, 100% WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING. IT CLEARLY SHOWS THAT YOU HAVE READ AND UNDERSTOOD THE ENTIRETY OF MY POSTS.


I also know that the rich have the real power in America/world. The rich fund the armies fighting against FARC/Naxals/NPA etc. But does it justify killing 'em off one by one, hunting them down like rats?
See, the thing is that it's not a question of justification - it's a question of what works. If killing the bourgeoisie one by one is the only thing that works, that's what we'll do - if simply forcing them into submission works, and is more efficient and less harmful to the working class, that's what we'll do, when the time comes. All I'm saying is that I, as a worker, don't care what happens to my class enemy.


explain to me, hypothetically, just how you, if you were leader of an ultra left terrorist movement, how the fuck you would wage your "JUST" movement to free the proletariat? if you can't come up with spec. strategies, then its all just talk.
What are you on about? Obviously I can't tell you exactly how the class war is going to be won, because that would be a useless attempt at prophecy. The Left in the western world is currently recovering and rebuilding our reputation as a legitimate movement, and doing that could easily take another decade. I can't predict how the class struggle will have unfolded in the rest of the world at that point, so I can't say specifically what the best course of action will be. It's highly likely that peaceful means will be the way to go for quite a while yet - and I hope so, because that means less dead and maimed workers. All I'm saying is, if the ruling class decides to escalate this into an armed struggle, it would be foolish to play by their rules.


you probably are a lazy person sitting at their computer without a job.
Holy shit what a bourgie thing to say. I didn't realise unemployment made you worth less, as a person or as a revolutionary. But if it redeems me in your eyes, I actually do have a job.

[RedMarxist]

look sorry, I just am upset that one would advocate terrorism as a an effective way to force through change.

i admit I'm inexperienced, but I did not want to become a Communist just because I want to stick it to my parents. i read the manifesto and other works and have decided that I want to carry through the struggle for liberation of myself and others. I don't want to be a wage slave working for some capitalist boss who tells me what to do 24/7 for my entire life.

I don't want to be told "the only way tot be successful in life is to go to college, get a REAL job, and make money. Or...you can always work at a soup kitchen(that's what my parents said when I said I want to help the poor, and even when I elaborated on that they still did not understand)"

I want to strive towards socialism here in America and would not be afraid to use violence, but only when absolutely necessary. I don't want to die for the cause only to be labeled a terrorist.

I want to start small. Spread the word about socialism in college, maybe get involved in politics(I want to major in political science and minor in history), then when I'm ready, join my local communist party. I want to study Marxism extensively, but I've only just began 'learning my history'. Sorry if I grew up learning all my life that communism is evil from teachers, parents, friends. only through self realization could i realize the lies I have been told.

In short, I want to be a revolutionary, and in doing so strive to better myself and society. But not to be some grand fighter like Che, but a small part in a larger struggle.

[maskerade]

look sorry, I just am upset that one would advocate terrorism as a an effective way to force through change.

i admit I'm inexperienced, but I did not want to become a Communist just because I want to stick it to my parents. i read the manifesto and other works and have decided that I want to carry through the struggle for liberation of myself and others. I don't want to be a wage slave working for some capitalist boss who tells me what to do 24/7 for my entire life.

I don't want to be told "the only way tot be successful in life is to go to college, get a REAL job, and make money. Or...you can always work at a soup kitchen(that's what my parents said when I said I want to help the poor, and even when I elaborated on that they still did not understand)"

I want to strive towards socialism here in America and would not be afraid to use violence, but only when absolutely necessary. I don't want to die for the cause only to be labeled a terrorist.

I want to start small. Spread the word about socialism in college, maybe get involved in politics(I want to major in political science and minor in history), then when I'm ready, join my local communist party. I want to study Marxism extensively, but I've only just began 'learning my history'. Sorry if I grew up learning all my life that communism is evil from teachers, parents, friends. only through self realization could i realize the lies I have been told.

In short, I want to be a revolutionary, and in doing so strive to better myself and society. But not to be some grand fighter like Che, but a small part in a larger struggle.

I think an important thing for you to consider is that the term 'terrorism' has a political meaning; it is something given to groups who oppose the dominant ideology in society. Wikileaks was called a terrorist organisation - would you say it is terrorist? There is a whole field of literature beyond just Marx that is a necessity for any leftist. I would recommend reading Manufacturing Consent by Chomsky, for example, to help you dismantle the workings of the propaganda system which thrives upon instilling fear of terrorism/communism. Cancer kills more people in the US than terrorism, but how much does the government do to fight cancer?

No one here is a terrorist. There is no such thing as a terrorist; we make our judgements based upon societal and culturally determined criteria that are not universal by any means. We need to destroy the culture of the bourgeois (the dictatorship of the bourgeois) and replace it with an ideological dictatorship of the proletariat.

[RedMarxist]

ya i do agree with you on the term terrorist being corrupted. I got so pissed when the US government tried to ban wiki leaks in America because "it provides sensitive information"

But what about Red Army Faction? were they terrorists?

it seems everyone who uses violence now or who even doesn't is a terrorist-naxals, NPA, FARC, wikileaks, etc. but terrorists, or so called ones, like Louis Posada are "not terrorists" as they bettered the interests of the ruling class here in America.

I'm disillusioned. I look around me and see all this horrible inequality. And I think "when will it end?" and "how can I change it?" Socialism is what I believe is the answer. But I'm sick of waiting. i know revolution is not sudden, but I wish we could achieve socialism in the states-now. I just hope I can help strive towards that goal with the rest of the far left.

[bietan jarrai]

Christ, I'm surrounded on this forum by a bunch of pseudo terrorist nut jobs who most likely don't have the balls to actually carry a revolution out!

Look, I know terrorism can be effective. How do you fight and enemy that can just blow you up without a moment's hesitation? one that disappears into the shadows just as soon as they appeared? but is it really the answer?

I also know that the rich have the real power in America/world. The rich fund the armies fighting against FARC/Naxals/NPA etc. But does it justify killing 'em off one by one, hunting them down like rats?

explain to me, hypothetically, just how you, if you were leader of an ultra left terrorist movement, how the fuck you would wage your "JUST" movement to free the proletariat? if you can't come up with spec. strategies, then its all just talk. you probably are a lazy person sitting at their computer without a job.

Seriously? What have you contributed to the "revolution"? Read a few books? Told your parents and your crush you were a communist and caused shock? Real flashy. And who are you to judge me? You don't know me man. You came here asking for help to join a Marxist-Leninist organization. Couldn't read the party statements and email them to find out what they were about?

And that insecurity? Don't know if I like Trotsky, terrorism this terrorism that? Sounds like me 2 years ago, when I said I was an anarcho-communist and I was an anarcho-communist because I read about it on the internet and I liked drawing hammers and sickles and circled-A's. Besides that I sat at home, played my guitar and hung out with my friends. I don't know who you are but you also don't know who I am so you better calm down because here "revolutionary credentials" don't exist. This is the internet.
Seriously, if you want to get into politics I'd suggest you'd learn a bit more so you don't have to resort to insulting people.

[RedMarxist]

look Im sorry ok. lets both chill. I regret causing that shock-I really do. And no, how can i contribute to revolution when I'm still in HS?

I am a communist OK, i mean it. I consider myself a ML, I really do. This is a conscious decision I did not just make on the fly. Your right too, I don't know you. So lets keep it that way.

[bietan jarrai]

I'm not saying contribute to the revolution, but try to warn people and help them see. Like Lenin said without revolutionary theory there will be no revolutionary movement. I'm in highschool too, I do a lot to help my classmates and friends and people I know understand what I mean and with the difficulties most families are going through these days in my country people seem to get it. Obviously there's always anti-communists that spread lies, but all in all it's going good. Raise awareness, that's the place to start. Once you're in some group you can spread flyers and stickers and stuff. But first, learn and teach others.

[RedMarxist]

that is my plan. Through the group im in, I plan to raise awareness of the struggles worldwide, socialism, etc.

I don't really see a need to form my own group, well not right now.

[grok]

I meant the protests and those assemblies they created.

I mean, would the ruling classes of any country just give you more democracy, or would you have to overthrow the government yourself?

would peace or violence be more effective in removing the current regime?



It's not a question of us being violent -- as too many are confused about: it's always about them being violent -- which is a certainty. Every time. So all we have to do is simply go on strike -- i.e. General Strike -- and violence from the State and the Right is guaranteed. GUARANTEED.

And so violence will always be a part of ushering-in real, socialist workers' democracy. Always. Pacifists go to Hell.

[Obs]

that is my plan. Through the group im in, I plan to raise awareness of the struggles worldwide, socialism, etc.
Holy shit, that's groundbreaking.

Look, you're a good kid, you know something's wrong and you want to change it. What's left for you is to learn how to shut the fuck up and listen.

[The Dark Side of the Moon]

the real reason (i just skimmed everyone else's posts) is because of our amazing propaganda machine. even better than stalins

[RedMarxist]

good point. Our propaganda machine, what with its FOX News and Glen Becks, is top notch. All our lives we've been told Communism is the most evil system on Earth.

Oh, and I shall shut up now. :crying:

[The Dark Side of the Moon]

good point. Our propaganda machine, what with its FOX News and Glen Becks, is top notch. All our lives we've been told Communism is the most evil system on Earth.
When we can all agree its fascism, and at a close second, capitalism

[RedMarxist]

well, FOX is no doubt fascist, as it loves to promote American nationalism as well as capitalism.

[Obs]

well, FOX is [...] fascist
3SX3JnUhTaE

Fascism is a much more specific thing than "nationalism and capitalism". If that was it, every single bourgeois party on earth would be fascist. Would you call the Democrats fascist? The Communist Party of China? Social Democrats in Europe?

[RedMarxist]

ha ha that was a joke

no FOX is certainty not fascist. The Tea Party is.

[Pioneers_Violin]

Would the U.S. Government allow "True" Democracy?

No.
No, they would not.

Any attempt at changing the power structure in the US would be swiftly crushed.

Just look at all the practice the US government has had in the last 10 years crushing populations. Do you think they would hesitate to treat oh, say Seattle or Milwaukee the same as Bagdad?
The same government which NUKED two cities and firebombed many others into total oblivion. The one that has active military bases in 150 countries. The one that locks people up for dancing at public monuments.

RedMarxist:
So you would criticize the people who would put their one and only life on the line to stand up to and try to stop or at least change this terrifying abomination of a government.

Many of us here know what revolution entails. IF it succeeds, many of our comrades will die. If it fails, we ALL shall likely die ingloriously.
Just by posting in this forum, we accept risk.

And then you go on to suggest that a successful revolt against such a powerful, despotic and violent regime could be peaceful? And that people who realize that it probably won't be peaceful and are willing to act accordingly are "balls-free pseudo-terrorist nutjobs"?

You need help. Maybe you can find it here, I don't know. But it seems like you are in the wrong forum.

Please don't fly our sacred red flag of Defiance until you learn what it stands for. Learn what the Hammer and Sickle represent.
Learn, as in take a job that involves using one of these fine implements on a regular basis. Work for some murderous penny-pinching toad of a Bourgie. Learn the meaning of the word "Exploited" the hard way.

Or go ahead and make a fool of yourself. Plaster your car, room or what have you with red flags, Circle A's, address people as "Comrade", whatever.



Just another balls-free pseudo-terrorist nutjob :rolleyes:

[piet11111]

The use of terrorist methods would only result in our isolation and eventual defeat.

The picture you need to imagine is more mass protests in the line of Egypt where the people are armed and shoot back at the police and soldiers that use force against us.

[RedMarxist]

sorry, I was just upset that someone would suggest terrorism as a viable tactic. Look, I really do want to change this regime, but right now I'm still learning about what communism means to me. I'm young and naive yes, but I would be willing to stand in front of a tank, if that meant defying this regime. Really truly.

I look around me and I see horrible injustices. Murder, Starvation, wonton destruction and human misery. Since the revolutions in the Mid East and Europe, I've been filled with hope-hope that a true socialist revolution can change things here. This country is ruled by capitalists-a wealthy few who exploit us.

take all the money and power away from the capitalists and our supposedly "representative" leaders, then what do they have. NOTHING. I want to badly take all of that away from them, to make them pay. Pay for bombing Libya, pay for invading Iraq and Afghanistan, and pay for keeping my fellow man in poverty.

I told you about my "crush", yes? Well I feel so damned ashamed that she lives in poverty, while I don't. I almost wish I could trade places, to see what its like. And I am not rich-stop assuming that. And even if I was, I can't help it. I was born this way and dammit I cant change it. I Want to destroy the capitalist system that keeps a decent, beautiful girl like her poor-this economy has destroyed her, yet it was caused by the rich capitalist class and our government.

Treason? yes. But I'd rather die a martyr then slave away for my life at some mid level business job like my dad. So, I will spread the word of socialism as much as possible, and try to liberate the working class.

=RedMarxist=

[bietan jarrai]

The use of terrorist methods would only result in our isolation and eventual defeat.

The picture you need to imagine is more mass protests in the line of Egypt where the people are armed and shoot back at the police and soldiers that use force against us.

Still waiting to see how that ends. Not that it wasn't a great thing but I doubt it'll end up in a good way.

Still, I don't wanna make this a discussion about Egypt. I'm just wondering how the fuck is "terrorism" a.k.a. class war not a way of fighting back.
The people will resort/are resorting to "terrorism" because something was done before, it's not like, "Hey let's go out and throw some molotovs. Just for fun, nothing serious."

[bietan jarrai]

sorry, I was just upset that someone would suggest terrorism as a viable tactic. Look, I really do want to change this regime, but right now I'm still learning about what communism means to me. I'm young and naive yes, but I would be willing to stand in front of a tank, if that meant defying this regime. Really truly.

I look around me and I see horrible injustices. Murder, Starvation, wonton destruction and human misery. Since the revolutions in the Mid East and Europe, I've been filled with hope-hope that a true socialist revolution can change things here. This country is ruled by capitalists-a wealthy few who exploit us.

take all the money and power away from the capitalists and our supposedly "representative" leaders, then what do they have. NOTHING. I want to badly take all of that away from them, to make them pay. Pay for bombing Libya, pay for invading Iraq and Afghanistan, and pay for keeping my fellow man in poverty.

I told you about my "crush", yes? Well I feel so damned ashamed that she lives in poverty, while I don't. I almost wish I could trade places, to see what its like. And I am not rich-stop assuming that. And even if I was, I can't help it. I was born this way and dammit I cant change it. I Want to destroy the capitalist system that keeps a decent, beautiful girl like her poor-this economy has destroyed her, yet it was caused by the rich capitalist class and our government.

Treason? yes. But I'd rather die a martyr then slave away for my life at some mid level business job like my dad. So, I will spread the word of socialism as much as possible, and try to liberate the working class.

=RedMarxist=


I know what you mean, I was just saying that most "terrorist nut jobs with no balls" have done a hell of a lot more to help than you probably did. So it's better if you know what you're talking about before you say it. And even more if you are planning to join an organization.

[RedMarxist]

it is a form of struggle-a brutal one at that. It upsets me, which is why i reacted the way I did For example:

The Taliban. Many people rightfully HATE them for using brutal terrorist attacks/hit and run tactics etc. + that whole killing women/Strict Islamic law But they've kept the most powerful military on Earth engaged in Afghanistan for 10 YEARS! very effective.

FARC. not necessarily terrorists, but again through hit and run tactics they've remained the oldest insurgent group in Latin America, and are still trading blows with Colombia since their creation.

What does this teach us? It teaches us that guerrilla warfare, a nasty form o warfare, WORKS. If the most powerful military on Earth, with all its hi-tech gear, air support, and seemingly endless supply of new recruits, cannot beat back the Taliban, imagine what a mass guerrilla war in the United States orchestrated by its own people could do.

[bietan jarrai]

Guerrilla right now in the US wouldn't make sense.
I think we should be peaceful when fighting imperialism, because if we aren't we could put the struggle at risk, but we should be violent enough when fighting for socialism, for the same reason.
As there is no chance you're going to start a revolution in the US (let's not mistake starting with working towards) you should be peaceful in your struggles. Colombia I think is another story, such methods do have to be adopted there.

[RedMarxist]

I was being hypothetical of course. Your right, we must be peaceful, at first that is. When things get really bad-Great Depression 2.0 bad, then the time may be right to wage war.

I am not afraid to admit it. I am a Leninist. I believe that their must be a vanguard to lead the march towards revolution-if not then there is chaos and confusion. I think if we work diligently enough we can overcome the "mistakes" of the former USSR, China, etc. and build a democratic, society organized around this vanguard.

[CornetJoyce]

Would the US government, if massive protests like in Greece occur, allow true democracy?


Obviously, no government would allow that.

[Pioneers_Violin]

RedMarxist:

Standing in front of a tank is suicide. You will probably die young. And for nothing.

Are you willing to go to prison for your beliefs? You probably will if you're making as much fuss in public as you do here. Please read the thread on surviving prison. Again.

"Take the money away from the Capitalists and so-called Leaders"? Just how would you propose to do that?
Rob them on a street corner, one-by one?
Hack into their bank accounts online?
Ask them nicely to give it all back?
These people know that without money they are nothing and will do anything to get and keep all they can. And may I remind you, THEY are in a really good position to "do anything" and YOU are not.
They are not about to change their evil ways for anyone, no matter how convincing you believe you are.
Half of them know they're evil already and all of them KNOW that they are better and more deserving than YOU.

The Taliban has indeed been a minor annoyance to Uncle Sam.
But they have a few advantages: 1- It's in THEIR backyard. 2- Many of them have some training from Uncle Sam originally meant to defeat the Soviets in the 80's. 3- Uncle Sam needs a bogeyman and will keep them around until they're no longer useful.

If you want to relate better to working people, why not become one?
Learn a trade, join a Union if you can still find one. Get your fingernails dirty. Learn to wield a hammer (or a sickle) for a living.
The pay is bad, conditions are worse, the hours are awful and you can tear up your body till it hurts or breaks.
But....
You can:
Learn to truly despise the Bourgie scum up close and personal.
Learn to tell the difference between "nice" and "good" people.
Develop relationships with worthwhile people that would be more likely to join our cause than your average over-educated Bourgie idiot.

Plus, working people can usually do something somewhere to survive, especially in a country where hard work is out of fashion.

Added: The sickle has largely been mechanized. Lawnmowers and harvesting equipment are the modern Sickle. Why not try earning a living operating one?

[piet11111]

Still waiting to see how that ends. Not that it wasn't a great thing but I doubt it'll end up in a good way.

Still, I don't wanna make this a discussion about Egypt. I'm just wondering how the fuck is "terrorism" a.k.a. class war not a way of fighting back.
The people will resort/are resorting to "terrorism" because something was done before, it's not like, "Hey let's go out and throw some molotovs. Just for fun, nothing serious."

When the people move in sufficient numbers the state wont be able to fight back in a meaningful way consider Russia where they managed to overthrow the government with a dozen or so deaths.

[Klaatu]

There is actually "true democracy" in some states: voter referendums.

On the other hand, many voters can be misled by the corporate capitalist-owned media.
One can see the similarities here to a typical state-controlled media in totalitarian countries.

[bietan jarrai]

When the people move in sufficient numbers the state wont be able to fight back in a meaningful way consider Russia where they managed to overthrow the government with a dozen or so deaths.
It doesn't have to be that way. I just disagree with the fact that terrorism "would only result in our isolation and eventual defeat". Certainly the revolution will happen in different ways in different places. There will be places where terrorism will be needed.

[RedMarxist]

How would I take their money/power away? Revolution.;)

You probably think I'm going to turn into after college some elitist Marxist Leninist who is completely divorced from the working class and their needs.

I don't think throwing away my education however, if that is what your implying, is the answer

I really don't like the way things are run here, in this country. And if the CIA/FBI monitors this website god help me.

If the Vietcong could kick our ass in 'Nam back in the 70's, then just imagine what guerrilla warfare could do in this country. Led by A Communist Party, we'd be unstoppable.

We'd have the advantage of being in our own backyard. We'd know the terrain.

The rich would have reason to really arm their yachts then.

[piet11111]

It doesn't have to be that way. I just disagree with the fact that terrorism "would only result in our isolation and eventual defeat". Certainly the revolution will happen in different ways in different places. There will be places where terrorism will be needed.

Maybe you could explain what kind of things you are calling acts of "terror" here.

Because i am thinking about ETA and the IRA who got hopelessly isolated.

[bietan jarrai]

Maybe you could explain what kind of things you are calling acts of "terror" here.

Because i am thinking about ETA and the IRA who got hopelessly isolated.
I'm talking about "terror" in a socialist revolution, where terror is needed to accomplish a revolution. I do support the Irish and Basque republican causes, but I think those are specific cases and not exactly what I'm talking about - I was referring to socialism, not independency.

[bietan jarrai]

How would I take their money/power away? Revolution.;)

Yes, but how? revolution means a lot of things and the capitalists aren't just going to hands over the money/power at the sight of a revolution.

[RedMarxist]

How?

seize their property, the banks, etc. If the revolution cannot seize their money though(if they transfer it overseas) then we shall seize everything else.

The rich will be held accountable for crimes against the people and tried and punished accordingly.


I really do want to strive towards revolution here in America. I don't know if It is even possible, I'd love to form my own CP(or join an existing one), and lead a revolution in the mountains of Appalachia or similar strategic location. were not reaching socialism anytime soon in America just by talking about it.

[CornetJoyce]

Ah... "democracy" means a referendum.
In that case, "democracy" is possible whenever the Owners want a little amusement.

[smashcapital]

I think the slogans for the call for true democracy, direct democracy, or inclusive democracy that people have used could be used to gain at least some support from more people. Most people are at least starting to realize that the politicians do not represent their interests, but instead represent the corporations interests for them. Such slogans could be used to try to raise class consciousness. How far these could get us all depends upon how bad the situation in a particular area is though and how fed up the majority of the people are though.

Basically in my opinion it could lead to two possible outcomes. Like in Greece the parliament or congress can just completely ignore the people and do what they're going to do anyway and the larger majority of the people will just accept it and return to their daily lives. Or it could go the way of Egypt or Lybia where the people will refuse to back down until their demands are met which the state will most definately try to suppress. Like in those countries though the results of course can be different depending upon the level of loyalty that a regime has from the nationalist supporters and troops. It would most likely lead to greater resistance though, as it would threaten the current system and the international capitalists would also have a vested interest of making sure that such a movement is suppressed.

[bietan jarrai]

I think the slogans for the call for true democracy, direct democracy, or inclusive democracy that people have used could be used to gain at least some support from more people. Most people are at least starting to realize that the politicians do not represent their interests, but instead represent the corporations interests for them. Such slogans could be used to try to raise class consciousness. How far these could get us all depends upon how bad the situation in a particular area is though and how fed up the majority of the people are though.

In my country this "movement" is starting to be of a significant importance. I don't agree with that because this has nothing to do with class consciousness. This "politics=bastards" speech has been here since the democratic revolution, and it's bullshit, as obviously there are political parties that do represent the people and not interests.
Most of the people involved with this are sectarian, andyou can see that by their poor organization skills. There was a huge manifestation that was successful, but after that they completely lost it as they had not idea how to channel the movement, some wanted violence, others peaceful demonstration, others wanted to create a party.

Also, am I the only one to notice the huge media coverage? The union can attract as much or even more workers than the demonstration did and get almost no coverage. Goes to show.

(sorry if this is a bit confusing but it's hard to express myself correctly in english as some terms are hard to translate)

[bietan jarrai]

(sorry, double post.)

[Pioneers_Violin]

How?

seize their property, the banks, etc. If the revolution cannot seize their money though(if they transfer it overseas) then we shall seize everything else.

The rich will be held accountable for crimes against the people and tried and punished accordingly.


I really do want to strive towards revolution here in America. I don't know if It is even possible, I'd love to form my own CP(or join an existing one), and lead a revolution in the mountains of Appalachia or similar strategic location. were not reaching socialism anytime soon in America just by talking about it.

Hi again, RedMarxist.

Though your enthusiasm is admirable, you need more experience with life.
Your chance of doing any of the above by yourself: 0%

Do you think that somehow you're going to successfully build up a following of loyal comrades that will enable you to carry out your grandiose plans? If you even get a successful start, the Feds will be busting down your door in no time.

It would take many, many comrades to do what you propose, and many of them would have to be in positions of power. So if they're already in power, why should they listen to you? What makes you more special than the rest of us? Please, prove me wrong on this and rise to national prominence and succeed.

If I recall correctly, the Appalachians already have some troublemakers for Uncle Sam. Good for them, but are they likely to folllow, help or even tolerate you? Probably not if you're.not from there and especially not if you fly the Hammer and Sickle.

Good luck anyways.
Advice: Read the thread on surviving prison again.

[RedMarxist]

ya your right in need experience. I don't plan on going to prison anytime soon...so I'll scrap my grandiose plans

I think I should just read read read, as well as maybe join a party.