is pornography driving men crazy?

[bcbm]

http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/opinion/2011/06/2011630143536779660.html

[The Vegan Marxist]

"Crazy" is a simplistic psychological term. The question is this: is the increase of pornography psychologically affecting men in an overall negative manner? I'd say no, because I've seen no evidence of this. If anything, under capitalism, the negative psychological effects take place to those within the porn industry, not those watching/enjoying it.

[Cane Nero]

I certainly would go crazy WITHOUT it ...

[Spartacus.]

http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/opinion/2011/06/2011630143536779660.html


Men are crazy with or without the porn...

[jake williams]

Societies are becoming more and more liberal about pornography as they become less and less regressive in other gender and sexual policy. The societies with the fiercest anti-pornography laws are the societies with the most backward policy on gender and sexuality in general. I doubt it's a coincidence. I'm not suggesting a causative relationship, but if there is one, it's not the one Ms. Wolf is suggesting.

[Octavian]

I love how her basis for men being crazy is that some are exposing themselves over the internet. Not to mention she completely ignores that woman use pornography too, though I have heard romance novels are akin to female porn.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

By now, there is an effective and detailed model for weaning porn-addicted men and restoring them to a more balanced mental state, one less at the mercy of their compulsions. Understanding how pornography affects the brain and wreaks havoc on male virility permits people to make better-informed choices

:laugh:

Great to argue that sex scandals amongst politicians enabled by the increasing ease to do so would somehow be evidence of this dreadfully evolving pornocratic order.

[Cane Nero]

How about no?
- RA

[Tenka]

Seriously, it´s totally healthy to fap to this kind of thing...
Are you implicitly suggesting that it's not?

[tracher999]

i can anjoy me with a good pornmovie nothing rong with you must now your limit ant keep your dick in your pants if you see a nice girl after wath that movie:D

[Queercommie Girl]

It's sexist to think that only men can enjoy porn.

[ReVoLuTiOnArYbUtGaNgStEr]

I am proper addicted to porn, I have to wank all the time or I get really angry at the slightest thing, however working out can be a substitute but its not as fun:tt1:

[bailey_187]

i dont get this article

i dont carse if some NYC politician gets his knob out on twitter. LOL for him, but its hardly anything that serious. but its not even exclusive to men. how many female had nude photos or videos leaked (rihanna, girl from disney, paris hilton etc). how many times at school did a girl have a pic she sent to one guy sent around the whole school etc. its nothing new and i dont see how porn caused this

as for the point about people becoming addicted. havnt lonely weirdos always existed? let them have their porn, makes their life abit better guess

[bailey_187]

I am proper addicted to porn, I have to wank all the time or I get really angry at the slightest thing, however working out can be a substitute but its not as fun:tt1:

find someone to have sex with regularly then ur addiction will be gone or atleast decreased, its not hard bro

[ReVoLuTiOnArYbUtGaNgStEr]

It's sexist to think that only men can enjoy porn.

Yeah a female mate proudly showed off her guy on guy DVD selection she watches to me and her boyfriend, Women are far more sexually open than alot of men nowadays, most men are all talk, but I think most women are far more sexually free than men who are compressed into the one version macho idea of sex that involves "hard" sex and inexplicably pulling out and spewing cum over their girlfriends face, I see this becoming a problem in the future, the dinasouars had a big rock kill them, we killed the Dodo, the facial killed the Humans:laugh:

[ReVoLuTiOnArYbUtGaNgStEr]

find someone to have sex with regularly then ur addiction will be gone or atleast decreased, its not hard bro

Problem is I am shit with women, I also find that after work and gym, rather than having to go through 2 hours of chatting for sex, me, anonymous sexy girl and her friend and an inverted high five can make me feel like Garry glitter in an unattended bouncy castle at a fundraiser for blind and deaf prepubescents.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

"When large scale excavations of Pompeii were undertaken in the 1860s, much of the erotic art of the Romans came to light, shocking the Victorians who saw themselves as the intellectual heirs of the Roman Empire. They did not know what to do with the frank depictions of sexuality, and endeavored to hide them away from everyone but upper class scholars. The moveable objects were locked away in the Secret Museum in Naples and what could not be removed was covered and cordoned off as to not corrupt the sensibilities of women, children and the working class." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornography

[Principia Ethica]

They can go ahead and ban porn. I don't care. As long as they leave men on men porn alone for you know. . . scientific and research purposes. I happen to be a researcher. :P

(Totally kidding.)

[ReVoLuTiOnArYbUtGaNgStEr]

They can go ahead and ban porn. I don't care. As long as they leave men on men porn alone for you know. . . scientific and research purposes. I happen to be a researcher. :P

(Totally kidding.)

HAHA, im down for the man love, Javier Bardem on a young Stalin mmmmmmmmmmmmmm god i gotta go... do something:o

[Anarchrusty]

What everyone inconveniently forgets is, that in societies without explicit nudity such as Saudia Arabia sexual violence is almost zero. When you leave milk in the open, a cat will come and eat it. So keeping these images from people, increases their natural want for order in erotic undertakings with a partner and only a partner.

[ReVoLuTiOnArYbUtGaNgStEr]

What everyone inconveniently forgets is, that in societies without explicit nudity such as Saudia Arabia sexual violence is almost zero. When you leave milk in the open, a cat will come and eat it. So keeping these images from people, increases their natural want for order in erotic undertakings with a partner and only a partner.

WUTT:confused::lol:

[Princess Luna]

What everyone inconveniently forgets is, that in societies without explicit nudity such as Saudia Arabia sexual violence is almost zero. When you leave milk in the open, a cat will come and eat it. So keeping these images from people, increases their natural want for order in erotic undertakings with a partner and only a partner.
actually out of 195 countries (196 tomorrow) Saudi Arabia is #65 in terms of rape
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_percap-crime-rapes-per-capita

[Principia Ethica]

What everyone inconveniently forgets is, that in societies without explicit nudity such as Saudia Arabia sexual violence is almost zero. When you leave milk in the open, a cat will come and eat it. So keeping these images from people, increases their natural want for order in erotic undertakings with a partner and only a partner.

Wrong. They get it. They get as much of it as they want in many forms and mediums. It happens that when you ban it, the rich ones will find a way to get it. Many of my clients are from Saudi. I'm sure the people there with money will find many many sources from which to procure pr0n.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

What everyone inconveniently forgets is, that in societies without explicit nudity such as Saudia Arabia sexual violence is almost zero. When you leave milk in the open, a cat will come and eat it. So keeping these images from people, increases their natural want for order in erotic undertakings with a partner and only a partner.

You got to be fucking kidding... There's plenty of sexual violence in Saudi Arabia even so, it's just pretty... not in the open so to say...

[ReVoLuTiOnArYbUtGaNgStEr]

Wrong. They get it. They get as much of it as they want in many forms and mediums. It happens that when you ban it, the rich ones will find a way to get it. Many of my clients are from Saudi. I'm sure the people there with money will find many many sources from which to procure pr0n.

what is this PR0N you speak of and how do we fight it?

[Principia Ethica]

what is this PR0N you speak of and how do we fight it?

You have to rub certain specific body parts very vigorously and the evils of pr0n will be defeated! It just magically goes away. So rub on!!!!

[ReVoLuTiOnArYbUtGaNgStEr]

You have to rub certain specific body parts very vigorously and the evils of pr0n will be defeated! It just magically goes away. So rub on!!!!

Pull on it hard and fast, dont give up on me you son of a *****!:lol:

[Hebrew Hammer]

Porn is weird to me. Like, I'm not going to go in a room, throw down some bills and beat off while either a couple fucks or a woman masturbates.

Kind of the same principle when it comes to porn for me.

[ReVoLuTiOnArYbUtGaNgStEr]

Porn is weird to me. Like, I'm not going to go in a room, throw down some bills and beat off while either a couple fucks or a woman masturbates.

Kind of the same principle when it comes to porn for me.

Where as if it was a dude masturbating....:lol:

[Tenka]

Porn is weird to me. Like, I'm not going to go in a room, throw down some bills and beat off while either a couple fucks or a woman masturbates.

Kind of the same principle when it comes to porn for me.
But that's not what porn is like at all. For one, you don't pay for porn. If you do pay for porn I feel sorry for you, because YOU DON'T PAY FOR PORN. And secondly, a lot of porn is not so boring as "a couple fucks or a woman masturbates".

[ReVoLuTiOnArYbUtGaNgStEr]

Yeah paying for porn is mental, so is whacking off to 10 second clips like I did at 14 in a rabid frenzy. Go on Xhamster or Xvideos, for all your disgusting and fetish needs:)

[human strike]

It disturbs me that so few on the left apparently realise just how bad pornography is. Yes, of course porn is making men crazy - it's making a lot of women crazy too - it fucks you up in the head. I really am genuinely very surprised at the attitude of many of you posting here. Am I really going to have to explain why porn is bad?

[Principia Ethica]

It disturbs me that so few on the left apparently realise just how bad pornography is. Yes, of course porn is making men crazy - it's making a lot of women crazy too - it fucks you up in the head. I really am genuinely very surprised at the attitude of many of you posting here. Am I really going to have to explain why porn is bad?

Yes please.

[Octavian]

What everyone inconveniently forgets is, that in societies without explicit nudity such as Saudia Arabia sexual violence is almost zero. When you leave milk in the open, a cat will come and eat it. So keeping these images from people, increases their natural want for order in erotic undertakings with a partner and only a partner. Except for that women have almost no rights so a man can simply take a woman as his "wife" which equates to being a sex slave and baby machine. You're also forgetting that the crime for rape is death.


It disturbs me that so few on the left apparently realise just how bad pornography is. Yes, of course porn is making men crazy - it's making a lot of women crazy too - it fucks you up in the head. I really am genuinely very surprised at the attitude of many of you posting here. Am I really going to have to explain why porn is bad?
Please enlighten the sexual misogynistic group that can't comprehend why.

[Hebrew Hammer]

Where as if it was a dude masturbating....:lol:

Even still, whatever person, doing whatever sexually, it'd be weird.


But that's not what porn is like at all. For one, you don't pay for porn. If you do pay for porn I feel sorry for you, because YOU DON'T PAY FOR PORN. And secondly, a lot of porn is not so boring as "a couple fucks or a woman masturbates".

Yeah, I'm aware of Youporn and other various free porn sites but even if you're not paying, it's still weird to me, you can take the money part out of my post entirely and it would still be weird to me. I'm really not down with voyeurism, which is what porn basically is, just accepted/weird voyeurism.

[Diello]

I think there should be a distinction made between the pornography which I believe the editorial is principally referring to (i.e., a generic, Barbie-looking woman screaming at the top of her lungs as twenty-seven cocks plunge into her anus) and, say, nudie self-shots by non-professionals, randomly gleaned from image boards.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Porn has been discussed at length recently in these two threads:

Misogyny as "entertainment" (http://www.revleft.com/vb/misogyny-entertainment-t152319/index.html?t=152319)

thoughts on porn (http://www.revleft.com/vb/thoughts-porn-t153425/index.html?t=153425)

[ReVoLuTiOnArYbUtGaNgStEr]

It disturbs me that so few on the left apparently realise just how bad pornography is. Yes, of course porn is making men crazy - it's making a lot of women crazy too - it fucks you up in the head. I really am genuinely very surprised at the attitude of many of you posting here. Am I really going to have to explain why porn is bad?

Oh fuck off you square:lol::rolleyes::lol:

[Anarchrusty]

Wrong. They get it.

That's why I said: ALMOST zero. There will always be a couple of psychopaths in every society, no matter how healthy it is. Fact is though, that Western Decadence is rife with innuendo, explicit billboards of luscious women in alluring poses to make you buy a BigMac, pornographic tv channels and last but not least, porn. It is no coincidence that cities like Oslo and Sweden have the highest ever recorded in history rapes.

Regarding Arabian people, ask any of them why they wear the headgear and they'll tell you that it is to protect women from getting assaulted. The logic is simple, as long as you do not tempt a cat to eat a bird he'll drink milk instead.
Now, off course that is a fucked up world where women have to deter men from attacking them, but that's the way it is now.
We in the west however show breaste and ass and then wonder that we have created a society hostile to the opposite sex.
Think about it. We all want the revolution but as long as we all are not principled enough to dismantle the urges to porn within our selves and purge the bourgoise mentality bestowed on us by the inherited class disupheaval we are not worthy to wear our good guy badge.

Do the right thing.

[Anarchrusty]

You're also forgetting that the crime for rape is death.




I don't see anything wrong with capital punishment for rapists. Was that supposed to convince me to your porn addiction applause?

[bailey_187]

fuck off puritan, u dont live in the real world

they use sex to sell bigmacs? news to me. western decadence? women need to be covered to stop mens uncontrolable urges? wtf lol

[Princess Luna]

That's why I said: ALMOST zero. There will always be a couple of psychopaths in every society, no matter how healthy it is. Fact is though, that Western Decadence is rife with innuendo, explicit billboards of luscious women in alluring poses to make you buy a BigMac, pornographic tv channels and last but not least, porn. It is no coincidence that cities like Oslo and Sweden have the highest ever recorded in history rapes.

Regarding Arabian people, ask any of them why they wear the headgear and they'll tell you that it is to protect women from getting assaulted. The logic is simple, as long as you do not tempt a cat to eat a bird he'll drink milk instead.
Now, off course that is a fucked up world where women have to deter men from attacking them, but that's the way it is now.
We in the west however show breaste and ass and then wonder that we have created a society hostile to the opposite sex.
Think about it. We all want the revolution but as long as we all are not principled enough to dismantle the urges to porn within our selves and purge the bourgoise mentality bestowed on us by the inherited class disupheaval we are not worthy to wear our good guy badge.

Do the right thing.
This sounds a awful like victim blaming to me "well if women didn't wear mini-skirts men wouldn't rape them!" not to mention as my other post showed there are 130 countries with less rapes than Saudi Arabia, and many of those 130 countries have far more leneint views of sex and nudity then SA so clearly the SA model of stopping rapes has some major flaws to say the least

[bailey_187]

who is this nutcase and what do they do

[ReVoLuTiOnArYbUtGaNgStEr]

So an Anarchist wants to restrict sexual material, LOL, your like Teabaggers who are against big government but want the state to forcefully ban Abortion.

Contradiction FTW!

[ReVoLuTiOnArYbUtGaNgStEr]

fuck off puritan, u dont live in the real world

they use sex to sell bigmacs? news to me. western decadence? women need to be covered to stop mens uncontrolable urges? wtf lol

THIS, damn this guys cool :lol:

[Anarchrusty]

This sounds a awful like victim blaming to me "well if women didn't wear mini-skirts men wouldn't rape them!" not to mention as my other post showed there are 130 countries with less rapes than Saudi Arabia, and many of those 130 countries have far more leneint views of sex and nudity then SA so clearly the SA model of stopping rapes has some major flaws to say the least


I'm not about blaming the victim, don't try to make words in my mouth where they don't belong. I was explaining why there is almost non existent sexual violence in Arabian countries and how they go about it.
I don't subscribe to that view, but in order to protect women you sometimes have to take desperate measures such as these.
At least I acknowledge that most men are easily tempted. Do I wish to see it differently? Off course I do. But I do understand where they are coming from. It's about loving your women, and not exploiting them like westerners do.

[Anarchrusty]

So an Anarchist wants to restrict sexual material, LOL, your like Teabaggers who are against big government but want the state to forcefully ban Abortion.

Contradiction FTW!

Read my post again and understand it this time.

[Octavian]

I don't see anything wrong with capital punishment for rapists. Was that supposed to convince me to your porn addiction applause?
No, I was citing that you were using Saudia arabia as an example of where you claim rape was curved by women being covered up, but not only is that not true but the punishment for rape is a lot more severe then the western world. Could you please provide an argument that doesn't rest on rabid claims and ad hominems.

[Anarchrusty]

Actually, I'l get out of this thread before it descends into another shitfest again, like the last time :crying:

[Octavian]

Actually, I'l get out of this thread before it descends into another shitfest again, like the last time :crying:
So you're going to cop out because your argument falls apart at the slightest criticism?

[Anarchrusty]

rape was curved by women being covered up

No, I was arguiing against the exploitation of women in the west.

And I do apologise, that was a stupid remark and totally uncalled for. This is just a subject that gets personal for me easily. Hope you can forgive me for that.

[ReVoLuTiOnArYbUtGaNgStEr]

Actually, I'l get out of this thread before it descends into another shitfest again, like the last time :crying:

Or stop posting in threads about pornography :lol:

[Principia Ethica]

That's why I said: ALMOST zero. There will always be a couple of psychopaths in every society, no matter how healthy it is. Fact is though, that Western Decadence is rife with innuendo, explicit billboards of luscious women in alluring poses to make you buy a BigMac, pornographic tv channels and last but not least, porn. It is no coincidence that cities like Oslo and Sweden have the highest ever recorded in history rapes.

Regarding Arabian people, ask any of them why they wear the headgear and they'll tell you that it is to protect women from getting assaulted. The logic is simple, as long as you do not tempt a cat to eat a bird he'll drink milk instead.
Now, off course that is a fucked up world where women have to deter men from attacking them, but that's the way it is now.
We in the west however show breaste and ass and then wonder that we have created a society hostile to the opposite sex.
Think about it. We all want the revolution but as long as we all are not principled enough to dismantle the urges to porn within our selves and purge the bourgoise mentality bestowed on us by the inherited class disupheaval we are not worthy to wear our good guy badge.

Do the right thing.

People who watch porn are psychopaths? I'm surprised you didn't include gamers. . .because you know, they are promoting and committing violence, right? And while we are at it, let's ban all music that isn't gospel. They all promote sex and violence too.

Misogyny was around long before porn and exists in countries that ban it. Most religious areas in the world ban or restrict it and I'm sure those areas are GLOWING representatives of how women should be treated.

Let those that want to make and or participate in it do so. If there is exploitation and or other detrimental effects (in your eyes) address those. Arrest people who force others to do it. Figure out a system that will eradicate the exploitation. Plenty of people make their living in this way because they want to.

Or join a monastery.

[ReVoLuTiOnArYbUtGaNgStEr]

People who watch porn are psychopaths? I'm surprised you didn't include gamers. . .because you know, they are promoting and committing violence, right? And while we are at it, let's ban all music that isn't gospel. They all promote sex and violence too.

Misogyny was around long before porn and exists in countries that ban it. Most religious areas in the world ban or restrict it and I'm sure those areas are GLOWING representatives of how women should be treated.

Let those that want to make and or participate in it do so. If there is exploitation and or other detrimental effects (in your eyes) address those. Arrest people who force others to do it. Figure out a system that will eradicate the exploitation. Plenty of people make their living in this way because they want to.

Or join a monastery.

To be fair He may be on to something, I watch porn and I am a phsycopath. Always judge a book by its cover, especially if it has seamen stains adorning it!

[Principia Ethica]

It wasn't the porn that made it a psycho. . .it was the fact that you play dungeons and dragons.

[Anarchrusty]

I didn't mean pornlovers are psychopaths per se. I was refering to rapists. To sexual violence.
That there will always be a few no matter if a society is healthy. Look at the USSR, they had serial killers like Chikatilo. But not as many as in porn obsessed USA. Even Ted Bundy admitted he was a porn addict and that is what led him to killing. Off course not everyone that watches porn will turn out a rapist or killer, but it is telling that a society that allows women to exploit breeds more murder and rape than any other.
Look into Oslo and see how high rapes are there. You can't say that about Saudia Arabia.

[ReVoLuTiOnArYbUtGaNgStEr]

I didn't mean pornlovers are psychopaths per se. I was refering to rapists. To sexual violence.
That there will always be a few no matter if a society is healthy. Look at the USSR, they had serial killers like Chikatilo. But not as many as in porn obsessed USA. Even Ted Bundy admitted he was a porn addict and that is what led him to killing. Off course not everyone that watches porn will turn out a rapist or killer, but it is telling that a society that allows women to exploit breeds more murder and rape than any other.
Look into Oslo and see how high rapes are there. You can't say that about Saudia Arabia.

Allows women to exploit?? Damn those women opressors:confused:

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

I didn't mean pornlovers are psychopaths per se. I was refering to rapists. To sexual violence.
That there will always be a few no matter if a society is healthy. Look at the USSR, they had serial killers like Chikatilo. But not as many as in porn obsessed USA. Even Ted Bundy admitted he was a porn addict and that is what led him to killing. Off course not everyone that watches porn will turn out a rapist or killer, but it is telling that a society that allows women to exploit breeds more murder and rape than any other.
Look into Oslo and see how high rapes are there. You can't say that about Saudia Arabia.

Get banned, dickwad. Also IIRC that "Oslo rapes are omfg high" shit came from racist pig rags.

[ReVoLuTiOnArYbUtGaNgStEr]

Get banned, dickwad. Also IIRC that "Oslo rapes are omfg high" shit came from racist pig rags.
Not being funny, but that was harder to read than the subtle rebuttals of McallyCulkin were for michael.

I am interested to know what you meant, please elaborate.

[Anarchrusty]

So I should get banned coz I don't adher to pornography? Seriously? Is it a Revleft requirement or something?
And did you just call me a racist? What the fuck? Not only is that very dishonest of you, and why the hatred for me disagreeing? You are a child that doesn't get what he wants.

[ZeroNowhere]

And secondly, a lot of porn is not so boring as "a couple fucks or a woman masturbates".
Indeed, it has an intricate plot, and many structural nuances.

In any case, you lot aren't being prudish enough. All sexuality excludes sanity, sex is submission to lust and the rejection of reason, and as such sex is the cause of capitalism.

(The best thing about being an asexual prude is that you're never a hypocrite.)

[ReVoLuTiOnArYbUtGaNgStEr]

So I should get banned coz I don't adher to pornography? Seriously? Is it a Revleft requirement or something?
.

YES:cool:

[ReVoLuTiOnArYbUtGaNgStEr]

Indeed, it has an intricate plot, and many structural nuances.

In any case, you lot aren't being prudish enough. All sexuality excludes sanity, sex is submission to lust and the rejection of reason, and as such sex is the cause of capitalism.

(The best thing about being an asexual prude is that you're never a hypocrite.)

And when its up the bum its even better:lol:

[human strike]

Very strange to imply that being anti-porn is akin to being anti-sex. I'd have thought the opposite is more likely to be true. My negative view on porn is directly linked to my positive view on sex.

Come on guys, it shouldn't be so hard for people supposedly familiar with Marxist theory to see how porn might have a negative affect on those involved in its production and those who consume it. One of the main reasons I say porn is bad is alienation from one's sexuality. In pornography the alienation from their labour that the worker suffers is far more severe than that of other industries. If sex is your labour, then when you you work you are not only being alienated from the product of your labour, but from your sexuality.

Now sex is a basic human instinct, a basic desire. It is one of the fundamental aspects of being human and experiencing a rich life. Sex is great, that's why pornography is so appealing. But pornography isn't sex. What pornography is is the appropriation of sex by the spectacle, or even capital; the commodification/reification of sex. Porn is the representation of sex, of that wonderful passionate part of being human (of our species-being perhaps), the denial of sex that is sold back to us in its place. And yes, it is the denial of actual sex when you consider what was said in the article in the OP. What Naomi Wolff is saying in that makes absolute sense to me.

I'm probably not explaining this very well - I'm not sure how familiar you guys are with situationist and feminist theory - but the basic thing I'm trying to say is porn stinks; go have real sex and if porn has desensitised you, which I expect it has, perhaps this will help in your endeavour for sexual gratification: http://wearethepaper.org/2011/03/23/eros/ (The Paper is brilliant btw)

It reminds me of the black bloc in London on March 26th. Ann Summers had its windows smashed and one romantic anarchist screamed at the top of their voice in the direction of the store "IS NOTHING SACRED?!"

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

So I should get banned coz I don't adher to pornography? Seriously? Is it a Revleft requirement or something?
And did you just call me a racist? What the fuck? Not only is that very dishonest of you, and why the hatred for me disagreeing? You are a child that doesn't get what he wants.

You should get banned for being a sexist fuck, nothing else. Or at least restricted. You fancy Saudi Arabia clothing standards prevent rapes, which is a load of rubbish. You use racist idiotic news articles spewing filth to back this up by posing the opposite as being Oslo where apparently there's a rape on every street corner (obviously by them evil foreign elements doing this, according to the sort of shit press articles that come from).

Most of your posts are also very trollish, to say the least.

[Crux]

That's why I said: ALMOST zero. There will always be a couple of psychopaths in every society, no matter how healthy it is. Fact is though, that Western Decadence is rife with innuendo, explicit billboards of luscious women in alluring poses to make you buy a BigMac, pornographic tv channels and last but not least, porn. It is no coincidence that cities like Oslo and Sweden have the highest ever recorded in history rapes.

Regarding Arabian people, ask any of them why they wear the headgear and they'll tell you that it is to protect women from getting assaulted. The logic is simple, as long as you do not tempt a cat to eat a bird he'll drink milk instead.
Now, off course that is a fucked up world where women have to deter men from attacking them, but that's the way it is now.
We in the west however show breaste and ass and then wonder that we have created a society hostile to the opposite sex.
Think about it. We all want the revolution but as long as we all are not principled enough to dismantle the urges to porn within our selves and purge the bourgoise mentality bestowed on us by the inherited class disupheaval we are not worthy to wear our good guy badge.

Do the right thing.
Sexual violence is not primarily pereptuated by psychopats, What do you mean by "almost zero"? Clearly it is not. As for recorded rape, yes this is true, more rape is reported in sweden than in many other countries. There is, however, nothing to suggest sweden has a higher than avergae level of committed rapes. Also what would give you that idea and how does it support your thesis?

Indeed the logic is simple, and I have to say, fundamentally sexist.
As for the actual topic of this thread, pornography, yes I have to say that the porn industry is sexist. I don't think this is a very radical claim. And I do think pornography can perpetuate attitudes, after all this is what most media do. You cannot look at pornography as something removed from society, as mainstream pornography is very much part of that society.
Taking an uncritical views towards porn, especially as a guy, reveals ignorance.

However this does not mean I share Anarchrusty's view at all. Indeed I find it both ignorant and sexist.

[Anarchrusty]

I haven't defended any sexism, and what racism are you fucking talking about? It is clear to me that you are trying to get me in trouble, where I haven't said any such thing.

[Anarchrusty]

Thank you to Majakovsky. If I can't get the message across, at least you can.

[Crux]

Thank you to Majakovsky. If I can't get the message across, at least you can.
I am not agreeing with you, you know, and I would be happy if you answered my post.

[ReVoLuTiOnArYbUtGaNgStEr]

I am not agreeing with you, you know, and I would be happy if you answered my post.

Damn thats cold man, He put out a hand and you broke his fingers:crying:

[LegendZ]

Why is it that everyone who posts in a porn thread gets called sexist? :laugh:

[Principia Ethica]

This is my own personal view.

The expolitation/sexism. . .yadda yadda is there PRIMARILY because the industry HAS to operate within the framework of capitalism.

I'd venture that the same issues that the porn industry is riddle with now would NOT be there under a socialist system. The people who partake in the industry would CLEARLY be there freely and willingly.

It's funny how many people can say how workers feel and experience in a field they probably haven't spend one day in.

I'm not denying that there are issues. Hell, every industry has issues. Address the ISSUEs. . .and not dismiss the whole industry. Stop human trafficking, allow porn actresses and actors a way to address abuses/exploitation.

Don't agree with porn? Vote with your wallet. Don't buy any. It will send a clear message to the industry that no one wants their wares.

[ReVoLuTiOnArYbUtGaNgStEr]

why is it that everyone who posts in a porn thread gets called sexist? :laugh:

mysogynist!!!

[Anarchrusty]

I am not agreeing with you, you know, and I would be happy if you answered my post.


What's the question?

[human strike]

Why is it that everyone who posts in a porn thread gets called sexist? :laugh:

Sexist

[Lynx]

I don't see how I would become jaded or desensitized unless I was viewing porn for its shock value. Anyway, I prefer erotica.

[Crux]

Why is it that everyone who posts in a porn thread gets called sexist? :laugh:
Because some, by ignorance rather than intent, quite casually are.
And only now did I read the actual article. Can porn be psychologically addictive? I think it is likely, after all there is lots of behaviours that can be addictive, I do not however think that is the main issue with pornography. I am not "anti-porn" by the way, although I suppose there is a case for that, I am however critical and I believe anyone who is opposed to sexism should be.

[ZeroNowhere]

go have real sex and if porn has desensitised you, which I expect it has, perhaps this will help in your endeavour for sexual gratificationCasual sex isn't really that far departed from masturbation in general principle, and any advantages it may have are probably outweighed by its complications, while romance is not for everyone who happens to have sexual urges, nor is sex for everyone who is romantic.

In any case, everything's commodified and sex is not holy.


YES:cool:Please don't double post, and instead edit later comments into your original post. It'll at least make it appear that they have content.

[Crux]

What's the question?
Sexual violence is not primarily pereptuated by psychopats, What do you mean by "almost zero"? Clearly it is not. As for recorded rape, yes this is true, more rape is reported in sweden than in many other countries. There is, however, nothing to suggest sweden has a higher than avergae level of committed rapes. Also what would give you that idea and how does it support your thesis?

(In regards to headgear being a solution to sexual violence) Indeed the logic is simple, and I have to say, fundamentally sexist.

[Anarchrusty]

Yeah but I never said I agree with measures like headwear, just that I understand why they are so protective of their women.
I have no idea what the actual rape in Saudia Arabia is, just that it is way beyond the west.

And what do you mean, not primarily by psychopaths? Who else would want to murder and/or rape a woman? Not sure what you're getting at.

[Principia Ethica]

Yeah but I never said I agree with measures like headwear, just that I understand why they are so protective of their women.
I have no idea what the actual rape in Saudia Arabia is, just that it is way beyond the west.

And what do you mean, not primarily by psychopaths? Who else would want to murder and/or rape a woman? Not sure what you're getting at.

And of course Saudi Arabia is "protecting" their women by not allowing them to drive. . .because women are so frail/helpless/defenseless and men are so brutish/piggish/violent that we need it. Nice way to equivocate on the word "protect" comrade.

I'd LOVE these "protections":


Saudi women face discrimination (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination) in many aspects of their lives, such as the justice system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justice_system). Although they make up 70% of those enrolled in universities, for social reasons, women make up 5% of the workforce in Saudi Arabia,[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia#cite_note-11) the lowest proportion in the world. The treatment of women has been referred to as "sex segregation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_segregation)"[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia#cite_note-12)[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia#cite_note-13) and "gender apartheid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apartheid)".[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia#cite_note-Handrahan-14)[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia#cite_note-15) Implementation of a government resolution supporting expanded employment opportunities for women met resistance from within the labor ministry,[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia#cite_note-16) from the religious police,[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia#cite_note-17) and from the male citizenry.[19] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia#cite_note-18)
In many parts of Saudi Arabia, it is believed that a woman's place is in the home caring for her husband and family. There is also segregation inside their own homes as some rooms have separate entrances for men and women.[20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia#cite_note-cbsnews1-19)
The driving ban for women was unofficial until 1990 when it was introduced as official legislation after 47 Saudi women drove cars through the streets of the Saudi capital, Riyadh. Even though illegal, women in rural areas and other areas outside cities do drive cars.[21] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia#cite_note-20) Women are allowed to fly aircraft, though they must be chauffeured to the airport.[22] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia#cite_note-21)

[Crux]

Yeah but I never said I agree with measures like headwear, just that I understand why they are so protective of their women.
I have no idea what the actual rape in Saudia Arabia is, just that it is way beyond the west.

And what do you mean, not primarily by psychopaths? Who else would want to murder and/or rape a woman? Not sure what you're getting at.
A majority of women has experienced sexual violence of some form from men. Either pretty much all men are psychopaths or we are actually dealing with a structural problem. Saying that only psychopaths rape is pathalogizing a problem that does not primarily have to do with mental health but structures in society that makes opression of women okay.

I do not believe rape in saudi arabia is significantly lower than in the west, as the fundamental structures are pretty much the same. Indeed the opression of women is sometimes more naked in Saudi Arabia than in the West.

[Agent Equality]

Just point me ONE crazy thing about this porn...

Seriously, it´s totally healthy to fap to this kind of thing...

wait are those her actual eyes in tubes? :confused: Fapping to this kind of thing turns people into crazy sociopaths.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

Yeah but I never said I agree with measures like headwear, just that I understand why they are so protective of their women.
I have no idea what the actual rape in Saudia Arabia is, just that it is way beyond the west.


Is it way beyond the west, you got anything to support that argument at all? You really fancy they are "protective" of "their women"? Their women, like it's owned by the other, that is to say the men, their women, and like they need some protection like that, because they are so weak, right? They need the men to protect them, to set the laws for them, the women can't do anything themselves?


And what do you mean, not primarily by psychopaths? Who else would want to murder and/or rape a woman? Not sure what you're getting at.

Psychopath is technically speaking quite a specific thing, and as Majakovskij suggested, this is a problem that goes beyond individual pathologies.

[Hammilton]

While I agree with the general consensus, it's naive to think that an increase in availability in pornography isn't have any affect on society, and that this effect is greater in men. Some things are different by gender. Women are more strongly affected by the analgesic effects of kappa-opioid agonists (mu opioid agonists are the standard ones used in medicine, pentazocine is the only opioid agonist I'm aware of with any real clinic use to possess appreciable affinity for kappa receptors).

For whatever reason men are far more likely to develop addictions to internet pornography (and sex in general). Check PubMed, or I can supply papers if you really would like. Nothing about this says women don't enjoy pornography or develop problems associated with it, but the numbers don't reflect claims that it's a gender neutral problem.

Increasing availability of pornography increases addiction to it. That's fairly obvious. You don't become addicted to what you don't have access to. Britain pumps opium into China, opium addiction skyrockets (some claim as much as 1/3rd of Chinese people had developed problems with its use). Social acceptance plays another major role. Cigarette addiction was highest when it was most socially acceptable.

Pornography will follow a similar trend. Because of it's non-drug nature it'll be harder to treat but eventually there'll be a societal backlash against it's increased commercialization as the negative effects become better known.

[Anarchrusty]

because women are so frail/helpless/defenseless and men are so brutish/piggish/violent that we need it. Nice way to equivocate on the word "protect" comrade.



Don't put words into my mouth.
And what, should I know all these things about Saudia Arabia? I am not an encyclopedia that I can cough up all these facts in one go like you do.

[HEAD ICE]

i fail to see how pornography is more inherently anti-woman than say, a daytime soap opera, or any other TV show for that matter. daytime soaps and television shows/movies always depict women in their "proper", class society given roles. to elevate sex up to this moral high standard is to expose yourself as justifying the social mores that sex is somehow a "sacred" aspect of human activity.

same goes for saying that it is somehow more 'exploitative' than other work. first, it would be more exploitative if on average porn actors had more surplus value extracted from their labor. to use the moralist definition of exploitation (which there is nothing wrong in doing, i reject capitalism as out of moral reasons as well) is to, again, elevate sexual intercourse into some kind of sacred thing. i fail to see how having sex on camera is more 'degrading' or 'exploitative' than say working in a coal mine for hours on end, exposing yourself to noxious fumes every day with the chance of dying from an "accident" due to lack of safety.

if you reject watching porn out of some moralistic reason, you are simply a hypocrite, and worse than that you clearly possess some seriously latent reactionary ideology. if you dont watch porn because you think it is boring or if it is not your kind of thing, cool.

im not defending the porn industry, porn does depict women in a sexist way, and the work that goes into it is exploitative. but so is everything else in capitalism and class society. i used to try to be the high road travelling puritan in refusing to watch porn out of moral reasons before the cognitive dissonance associated with it blew up and disintegrated.

[maskerade]

Yeah but I never said I agree with measures like headwear, just that I understand why they are so protective of their women.
I have no idea what the actual rape in Saudia Arabia is, just that it is way beyond the west.

And what do you mean, not primarily by psychopaths? Who else would want to murder and/or rape a woman? Not sure what you're getting at.

Women do not need the protection of men. You're coming off as really sexist...I wouldn't be surprised if rape within marriage was legal in Saudi Arabia.

[Mac]

I agree with anarchrust. Takayuki is a Stalinist asshole that can go die in a pit of douche. Takayuki's posts obviously show a high degree of immaturity. Case closed.

[Principia Ethica]

Don't put words into my mouth.
And what, should I know all these things about Saudia Arabia? I am not an encyclopedia that I can cough up all these facts in one go like you do.

I'm not saying you are an encyclopedia. But don't go spewing your uninformed OPINION as fact. This is the internet and you will get checked very easily. My bullshit detector is STRONG and my slap you with some facts hand is even stronger. :P

[Principia Ethica]

While I agree with the general consensus, it's naive to think that an increase in availability in pornography isn't have any affect on society, and that this effect is greater in men. Some things are different by gender. Women are more strongly affected by the analgesic effects of kappa-opioid agonists (mu opioid agonists are the standard ones used in medicine, pentazocine is the only opioid agonist I'm aware of with any real clinic use to possess appreciable affinity for kappa receptors).

For whatever reason men are far more likely to develop addictions to internet pornography (and sex in general). Check PubMed, or I can supply papers if you really would like. Nothing about this says women don't enjoy pornography or develop problems associated with it, but the numbers don't reflect claims that it's a gender neutral problem.

Increasing availability of pornography increases addiction to it. That's fairly obvious. You don't become addicted to what you don't have access to. Britain pumps opium into China, opium addiction skyrockets (some claim as much as 1/3rd of Chinese people had developed problems with its use). Social acceptance plays another major role. Cigarette addiction was highest when it was most socially acceptable.

Pornography will follow a similar trend. Because of it's non-drug nature it'll be harder to treat but eventually there'll be a societal backlash against it's increased commercialization as the negative effects become better known.

But porn has been around since humans have been around. Just because it was drawn on a cave, painted on canvas, carved out of stone, or free handed with pen on paper. . .the medium might have been different from what it is today but the purpose is the same.

Upstanding christian men have labeled these things "art." You know. . .if it is a fresco of a couple copulating. . .it's not porn. . .it is ART.

So we should already be able to gauge the effects on society. . .IF these upstanding men didn't try to hide and cover up the fact that these things existed.

Example of one of these secret museums: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_Museum,_Naples

There were/are a few in the UK as well.

[Crux]

same goes for saying that it is somehow more 'exploitative' than other work. first, it would be more exploitative if on average porn actors had more surplus value extracted from their labor. to use the moralist definition of exploitation (which there is nothing wrong in doing, i reject capitalism as out of moral reasons as well) is to, again, elevate sexual intercourse into some kind of sacred thing. i fail to see how having sex on camera is more 'degrading' or 'exploitative' than say working in a coal mine for hours on end, exposing yourself to noxious fumes every day with the chance of dying from an "accident" due to lack of safety.
But then again, I don't think you would find anyone here saying that working in a coal mine is unproblematic.

[Tenka]

So I should get banned coz I don't adher to pornography? Seriously? Is it a Revleft requirement or something?
And did you just call me a racist? What the fuck? Not only is that very dishonest of you, and why the hatred for me disagreeing? You are a child that doesn't get what he wants.
I don't even believe your non-"adherence" to pornography is sincere on account of such posts you've made in older topics as:

Hi Brasilineirieos, I don't know any Portuegese so no words from me in your language. Sorry.

As a bisexual male however, I am extremely interested in the Brasilian shemale culture, and the way they are revered as goddeses. I think we in Europe can learn a lot from you in terms of expressing a free mentality regarding sexuality.
As it is, we are immersed in heteronormative values that slightly allow a differing approach as long as it doesn't strike the eye in public places bereft of any emotion on a cognitive scale.
You guys have no idea about the subconscious but aware divulginess of recalcitrating the unknown, aka lgbt culture.
(bold mine)
Shemale is a porn term.

[Hit The North]

I agree with anarchrust. Takayuki is a Stalinist asshole that can go die in a pit of douche. Takayuki's posts obviously show a high degree of immaturity. Case closed.

Have an infraction for pointless flaming.

[Queercommie Girl]

What everyone inconveniently forgets is, that in societies without explicit nudity such as Saudi Arabia sexual violence is almost zero. When you leave milk in the open, a cat will come and eat it. So keeping these images from people, increases their natural want for order in erotic undertakings with a partner and only a partner.

Yeah, a semi-feudal theocracy like Saudi Arabia really is an ideal role model for socialists. :rolleyes:

This goes beyond this debate on pornography. The fact that you would pick an ultra-reactionary state like Saudi Arabia (which is also supported by US imperialism) as a positive example is frankly somewhat suspect ideologically speaking. If you are just anti-porn, you could have picked say Maoist China or the Stalinist Soviet Union as a positive example, at least those states were anti-porn without being explicitly sexist like Saudi Arabia is. Many socialists in China today for instance are anti-porn, but I've never seen any leftist use Saudi Arabia as a positive example.

Frankly, even if you picked Iran as a positive example it would have been slightly better than Saudi Arabia. At least Iran is anti-US.

Fuck Saudi Arabia and fuck anyone who defends it in any way.

[human strike]

But porn has been around since humans have been around. Just because it was drawn on a cave, painted on canvas, carved out of stone, or free handed with pen on paper. . .the medium might have been different from what it is today but the purpose is the same.

Upstanding christian men have labeled these things "art." You know. . .if it is a fresco of a couple copulating. . .it's not porn. . .it is ART.

So we should already be able to gauge the effects on society. . .IF these upstanding men didn't try to hide and cover up the fact that these things existed.

Example of one of these secret museums: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_Museum,_Naples

There were/are a few in the UK as well.

The thing about porn that makes it addictive is its association with climax. I doubt in the past there were millions of people wanking over frescos on a regular basis. It is the fact that it is so easily available that makes it so potentially addictive and potentially damaging today. Remember this is a change that has occurred remarkably quickly, over a couple of decades. I think it's unimaginable that this won't have had a massive impact on society. We're seeing a similar thing in children where their brains are actually developing differently from all previous generations due to the widespread use of screen based technology to communicate - that can have, and probably is having very serious affects on the behaviour of children and how they communicate with other people. I think it's crazy not to suggest a similar thing is happening with men, especially young men, in relation to sex due to the sudden mass availability of pornography.

I mean I'm a 20 year old male and I certainly know porn addicts and I'm under no illusions that this is the way things have always been.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

I agree with anarchrust. Takayuki is a Stalinist asshole that can go die in a pit of douche. Takayuki's posts obviously show a high degree of immaturity. Case closed.

This is sure some hypocrisy if I ever saw some. I don't even recognise "Stalinism" as a separate entity like that, and I quite agree more with Bordiga than Stalin, so I'm not sure what you're getting at here... :rolleyes: Nor did I contact any moderators or admins about anarchrusty, I just suggested he was a sexist and I thought the policy on such sexism was that they be banned or restricted, and I had nothing to do with writing up those policies, so don't attack me about that.

[Principia Ethica]

The thing about porn that makes it addictive is its association with climax. I doubt in the past there were millions of people wanking over frescos on a regular basis. It is the fact that it is so easily available that makes it so potentially addictive and potentially damaging today. Remember this is a change that has occurred remarkably quickly, over a couple of decades. I think it's unimaginable that this won't have had a massive impact on society. We're seeing a similar thing in children where their brains are actually developing differently from all previous generations due to the widespread use of screen based technology to communicate - that can have, and probably is having very serious affects on the behaviour of children and how they communicate with other people. I think it's crazy not to suggest a similar thing is happening with men, especially young men, in relation to sex due to the sudden mass availability of pornography.

I mean I'm a 20 year old male and I certainly know porn addicts and I'm under no illusions that this is the way things have always been.

You are absolutely right. Those frescoes were not used as wanking material. They were used to arouse and then go. . .fuck. What's so wrong with that?

And if we are to equate widespreaddedness (did I make up that word?) and consumption to addiction/potential for addiction. . . .let's ban television, sodas, chips, computers, gold fish, chihuahuas, frozen dinners, working out at the gym. . .where do we draw the line?

I think porn gets a bad wrap simply because it is tied in with sex. People still hold the view that sex is somehow special and shouldn't be commercialized etc.

[Anarchrusty]

Yeah, a semi-feudal theocracy like Saudi Arabia really is an ideal role model for socialists. :rolleyes:

This goes beyond this debate on pornography. The fact that you would pick an ultra-reactionary state like Saudi Arabia (which is also supported by US imperialism) as a positive example is frankly somewhat suspect ideologically speaking. If you are just anti-porn, you could have picked say Maoist China or the Stalinist Soviet Union as a positive example, at least those states were anti-porn without being explicitly sexist like Saudi Arabia is. Many socialists in China today for instance are anti-porn, but I've never seen any leftist use Saudi Arabia as a positive example.

Frankly, even if you picked Iran as a positive example it would have been slightly better than Saudi Arabia. At least Iran is anti-US.

Fuck Saudi Arabia and fuck anyone who defends it in any way.

I didn't know Stalin and Moa were anti porn as well. Was there already porn back in that day? I thought it was invented in the sixties or seventies. But that's besides the point.

I don't know that much from Saudia Arabia. I heard this once in a conversation with a guy I met, and saw nothing that he was either lying, or not telling the truth.

[Anarchrusty]

I don't even believe your non-"adherence" to pornography is sincere on account of such posts you've made in older topics as:

(bold mine)
Shemale is a porn term.

If you read correctively, I was criticizing western heteronormativity in that post, and at the same time upholding the values of Brazil were people are free to express their individual sexuality on a societal basis.
It is worlds apart from American and European ways of dealing with sexuality. What was so hard to understand about that?

[Queercommie Girl]

I didn't know Stalin and Moa were anti porn as well. Was there already porn back in that day? I thought it was invented in the sixties or seventies. But that's besides the point.

I don't know that much from Saudia Arabia. I heard this once in a conversation with a guy I met, and saw nothing that he was either lying, or not telling the truth.

Pornography existed during the era of ancient Greece and Rome, so go figure.

There were pornography throughout Chinese history, right up until the 1949 revolution. Orthodox Maoism is indeed quite "morally puritanical" and is anti-porn, as well as anti-sex work.

I don't agree with this personally, but that's not the main problem I have with your ideas.

What you do not realise is that there are different ways to be anti-porn, and how Maoism is anti-porn is fundamentally different from how a deeply sexist society like Saudi Arabia is anti-porn.

Women in Maoist China were not covered up in order to "protect" them. Women did exactly the same work as men, including the most dangerous and difficult tasks. There was the role model of the "iron girl" in Maoist China. So to be anti-porn in this kind of context is completely different from being anti-porn in a sexist context where women are assumed to be inferior and weak like in Saudi Arabia.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

If you read correctively, I was criticizing western heteronormativity in that post, and at the same time upholding the values of Brazil were people are free to express their individual sexuality on a societal basis.
It is worlds apart from American and European ways of dealing with sexuality. What was so hard to understand about that?

"Shemale" is a pornographic term for transsexual and transgender people, quite a lot of who do it to afford an SRS. It is almost never used outside of its pornographic context and is regarded by some, including me, as derogatory.

[The Vegan Marxist]

lol, I find it hard to imagine that this woman truly believes women doesn't enjoy porn as much as men do. Seriously, sign up for a free standard account on one of these webcam porn broadcasting sites and you'd be amazed at how many women, in relation to the number of men, are willing to expose themselves just for the fun of it.

It's fucking entertainment! Get over it! :rolleyes:

[Principia Ethica]

"Shemale" is a term that is offensive to most transwomen. The only segment of the trans community that uses or relates to that word are the ones in the PORN industry. Outside of the porn industry, that word is meant to be derogatory/demeaning. . . it's a porn buzzword.

[bailey_187]

what exactly is a porn addict?

someone who just uses porn on a regular basis? Or someone who literaly needs porn everyday?

porn is a substitute for sex for most people.

whenever this is discussed we always just get vague statements that basicaly mean nothing. "porn leads to sex being appropriated by the spectacle" - mean, wtf does that mean in concrete terms? whole lot of intellectual masturbation over masturbation.

these so called experts on society, it seems, dont live in real society and are completly detached from it. these guys. its so embaresing and cringeworthy hearing u people talk about interaction between genders, depiction of women etc, because you people seem complelty oblivious to it in reality. sort of like when people condemning porn talk as if its all super violent sadist shit - when was the last time they went on pornhub?

sorry but some academic nerd isnt going to be telling me about this stuff. sort of like the pope talking about how to prevent aids - come on son, u a virgin

[black magick hustla]

i like that you use saudi arabia as a favorable example of sexuality and gender. idk what's better, sexual violence in college or women living as household pets (who get plenty of sexual violence, its just not reported, and its with husbands)

[Anarchrusty]

"Shemale" is a term that is offensive to most transwomen. The only segment of the trans community that uses or relates to that word are the ones in the PORN industry. Outside of the porn industry, that word is meant to be derogatory/demeaning. . . it's a porn buzzword.

I didn't know that and in that case I should issue an apology to who ever it may have insulted.
What would be an acceptable term to describe them?

[human strike]

You are absolutely right. Those frescoes were not used as wanking material. They were used to arouse and then go. . .fuck. What's so wrong with that?

And if we are to equate widespreaddedness (did I make up that word?) and consumption to addiction/potential for addiction. . . .let's ban television, sodas, chips, computers, gold fish, chihuahuas, frozen dinners, working out at the gym. . .where do we draw the line?

I think porn gets a bad wrap simply because it is tied in with sex. People still hold the view that sex is somehow special and shouldn't be commercialized etc.

At no point has anyone advocated banning porn - not even Wolff in the article. All I've said is it's bad and you might find you're happier without it - I am. There's a BIG difference between saying that and saying it should be banned.


what exactly is a porn addict?

someone who just uses porn on a regular basis? Or someone who literaly needs porn everyday?

porn is a substitute for sex for most people.

whenever this is discussed we always just get vague statements that basicaly mean nothing. "porn leads to sex being appropriated by the spectacle" - mean, wtf does that mean in concrete terms? whole lot of intellectual masturbation over masturbation.

these so called experts on society, it seems, dont live in real society and are completly detached from it. these guys. its so embaresing and cringeworthy hearing u people talk about interaction between genders, depiction of women etc, because you people seem complelty oblivious to it in reality. sort of like when people condemning porn talk as if its all super violent sadist shit - when was the last time they went on pornhub?

sorry but some academic nerd isnt going to be telling me about this stuff. sort of like the pope talking about how to prevent aids - come on son, u a virgin

I used to watch videos on pornhub most everyday, now I have sex most everyday. Jog on.

[Octavian]

1.Come on guys, it shouldn't be so hard for people supposedly familiar with Marxist theory to see how porn might have a negative affect on those involved in its production and those who consume it. One of the main reasons I say porn is bad is alienation from one's sexuality. In pornography the alienation from their labour that the worker suffers is far more severe than that of other industries. If sex is your labour, then when you you work you are not only being alienated from the product of your labour, but from your sexuality.

2.Now sex is a basic human instinct, a basic desire. It is one of the fundamental aspects of being human and experiencing a rich life. Sex is great, that's why pornography is so appealing. But pornography isn't sex. What pornography is is the appropriation of sex by the spectacle, or even capital; the commodification/reification of sex. Porn is the representation of sex, of that wonderful passionate part of being human (of our species-being perhaps), the denial of sex that is sold back to us in its place. And yes, it is the denial of actual sex when you consider what was said in the article in the OP. What Naomi Wolff is saying in that makes absolute sense to me.

3.go have real sex and if porn has desensitised you,


1. THIS HAPPENS WITH ALMOST EVERY FROM OF LABOR WE LIVE UNDER CAPITALISM. Amateur porn is also above this because it isn't made for profit.

2. You're romanticizing a basic human instinct that's purpose is solely to reproduce. Sure it may be passionate and life enriching between two connected lovers but in all honesty porn has a more realistic depiction.

3. That isn't possible for every single person who watches porn.

[Queercommie Girl]

i like that you use saudi arabia as a favorable example of sexuality and gender. idk what's better, sexual violence in college or women living as household pets (who get plenty of sexual violence, its just not reported, and its with husbands)

Nah, if women were really treated like pets in Saudi Arabia it would actually be an improvement. Have you ever seen a human master sexually assaulting his/her pets?

In Saudi Arabia "rape within marriage" isn't even illegal. (It wasn't illegal in the West either until a few decades ago)

[Principia Ethica]

At no point has anyone advocated banning porn - not even Wolff in the article. All I've said is it's bad and you might find you're happier without it - I am. There's a BIG difference between saying that and saying it should be banned.



I used to watch videos on pornhub most everyday, now I have sex most everyday. Jog on.

I apologize for taking your words out of context. Please accept. :)

[bailey_187]

I used to watch videos on pornhub most everyday, now I have sex most everyday. Jog on.

and when u and ur sex partner split u'll be right back online clikcing with ur left hand lululululu

nah but real talk, wtf does "turning sex into the spectacle" or whatever mean?

[Queercommie Girl]

You're romanticizing a basic human instinct that's purpose is solely to reproduce. Sure it may be passionate and life enriching between two connected lovers but in all honesty porn has a more realistic depiction.


That's a rather reductionist view point. If you take such a point, then how do you explain homosexual sex which cannot lead to reproduction at all? Or do you think homosexual sex is somehow "less objectively valid" than heterosexual sex?

An even more directly functionalist (rather than looking for "ultimate" justifications like evolutionary psychologists are prone to do) explanation for sex is simply that it is pleasurable - certain pleasant emotional states are induced during sex. That is the only justification that is required. Historically it may have originally evolved for the purposes of reproduction, but for humans sexual pleasure and reproduction are becoming increasingly separated, and probably will be even more so in the future.

[ZeroNowhere]

what exactly is a porn addict?Pornography is only addictive insofar as sexuality is an addiction, and while this is probably an accurate description of sexuality and sexual urges, at least judging from my experience of sexuals, nonetheless sexuality is held up as a sacred beacon or something against addictive pornography, so I don't know.


these so called experts on society, it seems, dont live in real society and are completly detached from it.Eh, from my experience they're generally sexuals who want to justify their own urges with the mark of universal holiness and normalcy. They're perfectly aware of being a part of real society, they just wish they weren't.

[human strike]

1. THIS HAPPENS WITH ALMOST EVERY FROM OF LABOR WE LIVE UNDER CAPITALISM. Amateur porn is also above this because it isn't made for profit.

2. You're romanticizing a basic human instinct that's purpose is solely to reproduce. Sure it may be passionate and life enriching between two connected lovers but in all honesty porn has a more realistic depiction.

3. That isn't possible for every single person who watches porn.

1. Almost every form of labour alienates the worker from their sexuality? Methinks not. There is a counter-point to your point about amateur porn, but I forget what it is exactly and I'll get back to you if you want when I remember what it is (I've a friend who convinced me of it so I guess I'll ask them).

2. I think there is quite obviously more to sex than simply to reproduce. You talk as if pleasure isn't a purpose in itself. Porn has a more realistic depiction? Are you being serious?

3. Then porn is unlikely to be a problem for those persons, in the immediate individual sense at least.

[Queercommie Girl]

I used to watch videos on pornhub most everyday, now I have sex most everyday. Jog on.


I don't understand why you feel this is something you need to show off about.

[human strike]

and when u and ur sex partner split u'll be right back online clikcing with ur left hand lululululu

nah but real talk, wtf does "turning sex into the spectacle" or whatever mean?

The transition wasn't immediate - I didn't go from watching porn regularly to having sex regularly in one day (unfortunately). Anyway, nobody gets sex regularly on a permanent basis - not even me - but trust me it's not hard to not watch porn once you break the habit, sex or no sex.

Sex isn't turned into the spectacle, the spectacle takes sex and creates its representation i.e. pornography (though also advertising and other forms of media and so on) and throws it backs at us. Are you familiar with situationist theory? Debord's Society of the Spectacle? That's what I'm talking about basically.

[human strike]

I don't understand why you feel this is something you need to show off about.

Hey he brought it up - seemed to the main basis of his argument, that I have no idea about porn and sex. Dunno how else to refute that tbh.

[Octavian]

1. Almost every form of labour alienates the worker from their sexuality? Methinks not. There is a counter-point to your point about amateur porn, but I forget what it is exactly and I'll get back to you if you want when I remember what it is (I've a friend who convinced me of it so I guess I'll ask them).

2. I think there is quite obviously more to sex than simply to reproduce. You talk as if pleasure isn't a purpose in itself. Porn has a more realistic depiction? Are you being serious?

3. Then porn is unlikely to be a problem for those persons, in the immediate individual sense at least.
1. Isn't labor alienating workers a core part of Marxism?

2. Pleasure is purpose given to it by people. The original point of pleasure was the human bodies way to convince your mind to reproduce just the same as a stomach grumbling encourages you to eat so that you live. Notably like sense we also eat and drink for pleasure but this is a secondary purpose given by people themselves.

3. Then why are you against porn other than that you have sex a lot and there for it is immoral and exploitative for other people to use it?

[bailey_187]

Sex isn't turned into the spectacle, the spectacle takes sex and creates its representation i.e. pornography (though also advertising and other forms of media and so on) and throws it backs at us. Are you familiar with situationist theory? Debord's Society of the Spectacle? That's what I'm talking about basically.

nope. heard of it but ur explanation is all i know

what is the spectacle? why is it bad? why does it matter if the representative of sex is thrown at us?

porn is simply a substitute for those not having sex or inbetween sex. i dont see whats bad about that. this forum and facebook etc is a substitute between me interacting with people when i cant with my friends in real life.

[LegendZ]

I would say the majority of people who are porn addicts are so because they have high levels of testosterone or estrogen.

Coming from a pr0n addict.

[bailey_187]

Hey he brought it up - seemed to the main basis of his argument, that I have no idea about porn and sex. Dunno how else to refute that tbh.

wasnt even aimed specificaly at u but the academic types in general e.g. the author of this article

just because tiger woods and weiner etc been in the news latley its doesnt mean there is some sort of pandemic of people being exposed via technology for something sexual. some dickhead is always posting up on facebook pics of someone naked they were sent for private viewing because of some argument and its been happening (by other means) since teens have had access to camera phones etc. But this academic doesnt see that. they see whats in the news

[human strike]

1. Isn't labor alienating workers a core part of Marxism?

2. Pleasure is purpose given to it by people. The original point of pleasure was the human bodies way to convince your mind to reproduce just the same as a stomach grumbling encourages you to eat so that you live. Notably like sense we also eat and drink for pleasure but this is a secondary purpose given by people themselves.

3. Then why are you against porn other than that you have sex a lot and there for it is immoral and exploitative for other people to use it?

1. Which is kind of exactly my point. I would argue that one's sexuality is a part of one's species-being. Ordinarily the worker is alienated, of course, but not from their sexuality. I am, I think, coming at this from a very Marxist perspective.

2. And? Fact remains that the human passion for sex is inescapable.

3. I was a virgin when I stopped watching porn, so it's clearly not that. My point is if you can't have sex, then porn can't spoil sex for you, can it? I may be very wrong on this point though, it's not something I've considered before.

[human strike]

wasnt even aimed specificaly at u but the academic types in general e.g. the author of this article

just because tiger woods and weiner etc been in the news latley its doesnt mean there is some sort of pandemic of people being exposed via technology for something sexual. some dickhead is always posting up on facebook pics of someone naked they were sent for private viewing because of some argument and its been happening (by other means) since teens have had access to camera phones etc. But this academic doesnt see that. they see whats in the news

I was the only person you quoted...

"Since teens have had camera phones" - i.e. not very long at all and this is exactly my point. Boom of availability in a very short time due to technological advancement and I think Naomi Wolff (who is a very famous feminist theorist btw) does recognise this, she's just highlighting the fast moving pace of this development by drawing on very recent events and publicity or attention that the subject has had.

[bailey_187]

how does it have any link with porn tho? im sure people before cameria phones took pics on polaroid too

i didnt quote u in tat post i dont tink

[Octavian]

1. Which is kind of exactly my point. I would argue that one's sexuality is a part of one's species-being. Ordinarily the worker is alienated, of course, but not from their sexuality. I am, I think, coming at this from a very Marxist perspective.

2. And? Fact remains that the human passion for sex is inescapable.

3. I was a virgin when I stopped watching porn, so it's clearly not that. My point is if you can't have sex, then porn can't spoil sex for you, can it? I may be very wrong on this point though, it's not something I've considered before.
1. But they aren't really alienated in the sense that they haven't produce something that's being exploited in them in the sense of a material thing. Though I could see your argument as for the pornography itself but I feel like that's more a psychological thing that's hard to see because some would say that pornography is liberating for them.

2. My point is that sexuality is a natural drive and using subjective emotional arguments against someone using pornography to satisfy that drive is invalid.

3. I don't see it as spoiling sex really and some watch pornography before or while they are having sex. Though I myself have the thought process to differentiate between reality and fiction.

[¿Que?]

I think since we're talking about porn as an addiction, we might as well take the analogy of porn as drug to its logical conclusions, i.e. porn has definite non-gender neutral effects on psychology, some of which may be positive (as a coping mechanism perhaps) and some negative (the coping mechanism completely replaces normal sexual relations).

Porn also exists in a capitalist and sexist society, thus it will express those values. As such, we would expect to (and do) see in porn rampant commercialization and degradation of women. The former is evinced in the nature of pornographic advertisement, which as far as spam is concerned, is very prevalent. The latter we see in the content of porn, which is a representation of the subsumption of a subject's autonomy, and thus objectification, to the will of a dominating sexual partner. That heterosexual porn is sexist is undeniable, however I would argue in terms of media consumption, Stuart Hall's encoding/decoding theories are useful, if only to save consumers of porn from the notion that they, by watching it, will blindly and unreflexively internalize the values it presents.

To bring back the drug analogy, imo, porn is ok in moderation and taken with a healthy dose of skepticism and caution.

[Princess Luna]

I think since we're talking about porn as an addiction, we might as well take the analogy of porn as drug to its logical conclusions, i.e. porn has definite non-gender neutral effects on psychology, some of which may be positive (as a coping mechanism perhaps) and some negative (the coping mechanism completely replaces normal sexual relations).

Porn also exists in a capitalist and sexist society, thus it will express those values. As such, we would expect to (and do) see in porn rampant commercialization and degradation of women. The former is evinced in the nature of pornographic advertisement, which as far as spam is concerned, is very prevalent. The latter we see in the content of porn, which is a representation of the subsumption of a subject's autonomy, and thus objectification, to the will of a dominating sexual partner. That heterosexual porn is sexist is undeniable, however I would argue in terms of media consumption, Stuart Hall's encoding/decoding theories are useful, if only to save consumers of porn from the notion that they, by watching it, will blindly and unreflexively internalize the values it presents.

To bring back the drug analogy, imo, porn is ok in moderation and taken with a healthy dose of skepticism and caution.
heterosexual porn is not sexist, well some of it is particually stuff produced large porn companies. But with the rise of free porn sites like Youporn it seems like the commercial porn industry is dying, as someone said earlier in this thread "who the fuck pays for porn anybody?" and the void left by its departure is quickly being filled by porn that is homemade or made by small non-commercial studios both of which not only tent to treat their actresses better, but also they don't seem to try to "push the edge" as much because there is no financial incentive too do so.

[Tim Finnegan]

What everyone inconveniently forgets is, that in societies without explicit nudity such as Saudia Arabia sexual violence is almost zero. When you leave milk in the open, a cat will come and eat it. So keeping these images from people, increases their natural want for order in erotic undertakings with a partner and only a partner.
Christ, between this and demanding that the James Bond films be banned, I really don't know why don't you just change your name to "Fashcrusty" and get it over with.

[Os Cangaceiros]

It is hard to ignore how many highly visible men in recent years (indeed, months) have behaved in sexually self-destructive ways. Some powerful men have long been sexually voracious; unlike today, though, they were far more discreet and generally used much better judgment in order to cover their tracks.

hmm. not exactly sure if this is true.

Just look at JFK. He was quite open with his infidelities. I think that many people who fall from their positions (like Spitzer or Anthony Weiner) get brought down due to newer (non-pornography related) technology, and perhaps different mentalities among the public at large about such indiscretions.

[A Marxist Historian]

Christ, between this and demanding that the James Bond films be banned, I really don't know why don't you just change your name to "Fashcrusty" and get it over with.

Damn, wish I could get multiquote figured out.

Anyway, the poster Finnegan quoted claimed there was little sexual violence in Saudi Arabia. What a joke.

Little is reported, because the sheiks all have Filipino or whatever servants who have to do whatever they are told or else. So they don't need to get violent about it. Punishing a Saudi for raping a servant never happens. In Kuwait this all came out 'cuz Saddam invaded. Saudi Arabia is just as bad if not worse.

The interesting fact about porn, statistically speaking, is the huge increase in the interest in porn among *women* lately in places like America. Including the hard core stuff, not just bodice-rippers.

Meanwhile, guess where you have the highest consumption of porn in the world. Pakistan, or so I've heard claimed. Tells you something right there.

Porn, by the way, is extremely popular in Saudi Arabia, legal or not.

Overfascination with porn is a symptom of sexual repression. In a society with plenty of the real thing around, outright porn addiction will tend to dissipate, at least among people with good sex lives.

-M.H.-

[bcbm]

wow this didn't even make it a page before going to shit

[Crux]

lol, I find it hard to imagine that this woman truly believes women doesn't enjoy porn as much as men do. Seriously, sign up for a free standard account on one of these webcam porn broadcasting sites and you'd be amazed at how many women, in relation to the number of men, are willing to expose themselves just for the fun of it.

It's fucking entertainment! Get over it! :rolleyes:
You obviously have not read the link in the OP. Hardly suprising response from you though.

[Crux]

heterosexual porn is not sexist, well some of it is particually stuff produced large porn companies. But with the rise of free porn sites like Youporn it seems like the commercial porn industry is dying, as someone said earlier in this thread "who the fuck pays for porn anybody?" and the void left by its departure is quickly being filled by porn that is homemade or made by small non-commercial studios both of which not only tent to treat their actresses better, but also they don't seem to try to "push the edge" as much because there is no financial incentive too do so.
Sexism is not only a result of commersialization though. So what's your argument here really?

[ZeroNowhere]

lol, I find it hard to imagine that this woman truly believes women doesn't enjoy porn as much as men do. Seriously, sign up for a free standard account on one of these webcam porn broadcasting sites and you'd be amazed at how many women, in relation to the number of men, are willing to expose themselves just for the fun of it.

It's fucking entertainment! Get over it! :rolleyes:
I see that you have done some in-depth research on the subject, TVM. Thank you for sharing it with us.

[Queercommie Girl]

Anyway, the poster Finnegan quoted claimed there was little sexual violence in Saudi Arabia. What a joke.

Little is reported, because the sheiks all have Filipino or whatever servants who have to do whatever they are told or else. So they don't need to get violent about it. Punishing a Saudi for raping a servant never happens. In Kuwait this all came out 'cuz Saddam invaded. Saudi Arabia is just as bad if not worse.


I agree with what you said about Saudi Arabia, but you must be blind to accuse Finnegan for being pro-Saudi, the reality is precisely the opposite. He was having a go at Anarchrusty for using Saudi Arabia as a positive example.

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

The problem with pornography is the exploitative nature of the industry itself, not the fact that human beings are being filmed having sex. I've said it before, the problem I have with it is based on how the industry treats vulnerable individuals for profit, using all kinds of coercian techniques and methods to exploit fucked up people and edit an 8 hour fucking session involving all kinds of pain and what not into a 30 minute film that looks fine and dandy. In an ideal society, pornographic material would be constructed in a far more egalitarian and respectful manner, based on consent before profit and the sovereignety of the performers as fundamental aspects of production. Thankfully, with the internet, these aspects are a lot more apparent given the freedom to produce and distribute without the dangers seen in the mainstream porn industry.

Now I wait for porn freaks to take this out of context in favour of their own desire to watch some poor women getting her asshole torn apart by a group of men lol.

[ZeroNowhere]

I agree with what you said about Saudi Arabia, but you must be blind to accuse Finnegan for being pro-Saudi, the reality is precisely the opposite. He was having a go at Anarchrusty for using Saudi Arabia as a positive example.But Anarchrusty was the poster that Finnegan quoted?

[Queercommie Girl]

The latter we see in the content of porn, which is a representation of the subsumption of a subject's autonomy, and thus objectification, to the will of a dominating sexual partner.


I don't think that certain sex positions are inherently degrading if that's what you are talking about. The radical feminists are wrong on this point. Some men and women simply enjoy being in a more submissive position during sex, and frankly they have the complete right to do so. It is discriminatory to think that somehow people who naturally prefer to be the more dominant sexual partner are "better" in some way than people who naturally prefer to be the more submissive sexual partner. Nor is there any real correlation between how assertive one is in bed and how assertive one is in life in general. I know a woman who is assertive but also enjoys being the submissive partner in BDSM sex.

One problem with heterosexual porn though is the constant portrayal of men and women in rather stereotypical roles, but this isn't really much of an issue in non-hetero porn.

[Queercommie Girl]

But Anarchrusty was the poster that Finnegan quoted?

Yes, that guy is stupid for having a go and Finnegan for being "pro-Saudi". I don't know how he read the posts, but Finnegan was quoting Anarchrusty.

[ZeroNowhere]

Yes, that guy is stupid for having a go and Finnegan for being "pro-Saudi".But did they?


Anyway, the poster Finnegan quoted claimed there was little sexual violence in Saudi Arabia. What a joke.

[Queercommie Girl]

But did they?

Ah fair enough. My mistake. :lol::blushing:

Yeah, Anarchrusty is a bit of a joke.

[¿Que?]

heterosexual porn is not sexist, well some of it is particually stuff produced large porn companies. But with the rise of free porn sites like Youporn it seems like the commercial porn industry is dying, as someone said earlier in this thread "who the fuck pays for porn anybody?" and the void left by its departure is quickly being filled by porn that is homemade or made by small non-commercial studios both of which not only tent to treat their actresses better, but also they don't seem to try to "push the edge" as much because there is no financial incentive too do so.
What's your evidence for this? My first objection challenges the whole idea of a "non-commercial studio." So you're telling me people are investing money to set up studios in order to film porn which is distributed free of charge, and for no profit. I seriously doubt that. A small studio operates in the same way as a small business, thus there is a profit motive, and often times exploit their workers even more, given that they have to compete with large corporations who can suffer greater losses from benefits and such. So the financial incentive exists and probably more so than in large studios.

Now if you're talking about regular people who just have sex, film it, and put it up on the internet, then you may have a point. In this case, the sexist nature of the video as well the the relationship of the couple being filmed has to be judged on a case by case basis unless we can show statistically some types of general characteristics that accompany these types of relationships. Now, I doubt anyone has done any studies of this sort, but my initial reaction is to take these situations with a healthy does of skepticism. My guess is that most of this material ends up on the internet after the couple has broken up and as a result of boyfriends feeling jilted. I could be wrong, but let's not forget that we're both being a bit speculative.


I don't think that certain sex positions are inherently degrading if that's what you are talking about. The radical feminists are wrong on this point. Some men and women simply enjoy being in a more submissive position during sex, and frankly they have the complete right to do so. It is discriminatory to think that somehow people who naturally prefer to be the more dominant sexual partner are "better" in some way than people who naturally prefer to be the more submissive sexual partner. Nor is there any real correlation between how assertive one is in bed and how assertive one is in life in general. I know a woman who is assertive but also enjoys being the submissive partner in BDSM sex.

One problem with heterosexual porn though is the constant portrayal of men and women in rather stereotypical roles, but this isn't really much of an issue in non-hetero porn.
Actually I wasn't getting at that at all. Being submissive is not the same as being denied autonomy, particularly if it is your choice. That's the point isn't it? The act of choosing is itself an act of asserting your autonomy, so I don't see how choosing to be submissive relates to what I'm saying. And let me be clear on one point. Women generally choose to go into pornography (with the exception of human trafficking, but my point maintains either way). What we are talking about is representations of denied autonomy. This is the value system perpetuated by the porn industry, which as I have said, is not necessarily internalized by porn viewers, neither is it an accurate representation of what pornography actually is, which in most(?) instances, is a woman choosing to have submissive sex for money on camera.

[Principia Ethica]

I hear a lot of arguments saying that the porn industry is exploitative. Can someone please give me some evidence that the industry is more exploitative than say, the meat packing industry or the farming industry?

One aspect that I hear from my peers is that there is possibly exploitation with eastern european girls simply because the price of the product/rates that they operate aren't conducive to a living wage.

But with the popularity of the internet, you'll be hard pressed to find an attractive suck-and-fuck girl (industry term) and pay her pennies because. . .she can open a solo studio and go as an independent if she is motivated and tech savvy enough.

So I'm just very curious as to where everyone is getting their figures from. In my local podunk country area, when I need an amateur model for one of my shoots, I lowest I've paid is $40 an hour. . . for stills. It's not a shit ton of money but it is far from min wage. The experienced girls charge a shit ton more.

So I know the prices I pay for a co-star etc, they demand a certain price and I take it or leave it. I'm wondering if anyone if familiar with the going rate for porn stars. Is it min wage? Less? More?

At at those rates, if the director is telling them do do certain poses, make a certain face, do a certain position. . .is *that* exploitation?

Or is the implication that women who go into the industry need someone to look over them because they "don't know any better and they aren't aware that they are being exploited so we need to act like Captain Save a Ho?"

I'm not trying to be a dick but being from the inside, I don't get it. . .and I'm trying to understand the arguments that porn is degrading/exploitative. Porn has many facets and for those that don't want to suck-and-fuck or even take off their clothes, there are so many other avenues and still be in porn. Foot fetish porn? FemDom? Feeders? Hair fetish? Heels? It's almost infinite the things you can do to turn a viewer on and get them to bust a nut or ovary.

[REVLEFT'S BIEGGST MATSER TROL]

i dont get this article

how many female had nude photos or videos leaked (rihanna)

wait sorry but where can I find this video?

[bailey_187]

its pics bro, theyre not hard to find

[REVLEFT'S BIEGGST MATSER TROL]

Actually I wasn't getting at that at all. Being submissive is not the same as being denied autonomy, particularly if it is your choice. That's the point isn't it? The act of choosing is itself an act of asserting your autonomy, so I don't see how choosing to be submissive relates to what I'm saying. And let me be clear on one point. Women generally choose to go into pornography (with the exception of human trafficking, but my point maintains either way). What we are talking about is representations of denied autonomy. This is the value system perpetuated by the porn industry, which as I have said, is not necessarily internalized by porn viewers, neither is it an accurate representation of what pornography actually is, which in most(?) instances, is a woman choosing to have submissive sex for money on camera.

Classic "feminist" double standards here. Complete with resorting to quoting obsure french philsopohers in an attempt to explain why the act of being filmed transforms the choice of a women to be be submissive from an assertion of autonomy to a "representation" (presumably the appearance?) of being denied this. Of course you are welcome to suggest that the capitalist framework in which pornography exists creates unpleasant effects, but that isn't a point peculiar to the nature of porn itself.

[Queercommie Girl]

Classic "feminist" double standards here. Complete with resorting to quoting obsure french philsopohers in an attempt to explain why the act of being filmed transforms the choice of a women to be be submissive from an assertion of autonomy to a "representation" (presumably appearance? of being denied this. Of course you are welcome to suggest that the capitalist framework in which pornography exists creates unpleasant effects, but that isn't a point peculiar to the nature of porn itself.

It's not only women who can choose to be submissive.

[Queercommie Girl]

Actually I wasn't getting at that at all. Being submissive is not the same as being denied autonomy, particularly if it is your choice. That's the point isn't it? The act of choosing is itself an act of asserting your autonomy, so I don't see how choosing to be submissive relates to what I'm saying. And let me be clear on one point. Women generally choose to go into pornography (with the exception of human trafficking, but my point maintains either way). What we are talking about is representations of denied autonomy. This is the value system perpetuated by the porn industry, which as I have said, is not necessarily internalized by porn viewers, neither is it an accurate representation of what pornography actually is, which in most(?) instances, is a woman choosing to have submissive sex for money on camera.

What I was actually pointing out is the fact that in "standard" heteronormative porn, there is the tendency to have fixated gender roles, which I don't see as a good thing. While there is nothing wrong with being sexually submissive per se, I see no reason why it is mostly always women who are portrayed as a submissive partner. This particular statistical slant may indeed be partly influenced by the fact that women are generally less dominant in society in general, to some extent. Therefore I think even within porn itself, there is a case for promoting non-heteronormative and "non-standard" porn in which there is more of a gender balance, such as for instance BDSM porn with a dominatrix.

Conversely, the fear many heteronormative men have with being sexually submissive isn't really psychologically healthy either. A lot of men will say "there is nothing wrong with being submissive", until they are asked by their partners to be the submissive partner in sex.

[¿Que?]

Classic "feminist" double standards here. Complete with resorting to quoting obsure french philsopohers in an attempt to explain why the act of being filmed transforms the choice of a women to be be submissive from an assertion of autonomy to a "representation" (presumably appearance? of being denied this. Of course you are welcome to suggest that the capitalist framework in which pornography exists creates unpleasant effects, but that isn't a point peculiar to the nature of porn itself.
But it is the capitalist framework, because it's being done for money not pleasure. Just as in any work, we may derive pleasure from it, but because the work is not an end in itself, but a means, then it becomes exploitative. It's particular to the sex industry because we're talking about sexuality and not work per se.


What I was actually pointing out is the fact that in "standard" heteronormative porn, there is the tendency to have fixated gender roles, which I don't see as a good thing. While there is nothing wrong with being sexually submissive per se, I see no reason why it is mostly always women who are portrayed as a submissive partner. This particular statistical slant may indeed be partly influenced by the fact that women are generally less dominant in society in general, to some extent. Therefore I think even within porn itself, there is a case for promoting non-heteronormative and "non-standard" porn in which there is more of a gender balance, such as for instance BDSM porn with a dominatrix.

Conversely, the fear many heteronormative men have with being sexually submissive isn't really psychologically healthy either. A lot of men will say "there is nothing wrong with being submissive", until they are asked by their partners to be the submissive partner in sex.
And I don't necessarily disagree with any of this, which is why you may have noticed in my original statement, I qualified porn with the adjective "heterosexual."

[Xenophiliac]

I doubt in the past there were millions of people wanking over frescos on a regular basis.

Thank you for that sentence. I laughed.