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hatzel
8th July 2011, 13:18
So a few things have been sliding through my head lately. One of these is the traditional use of the pronoun set 'He/Him/His' in English, when referring to the Abrahamic deity. Now, this irks me for (at least) two reasons; it seems to contradict the actual teachings on the nature of 'the Divine' for starters, and there are some obvious issues when it comes to latent patriarchy in language. I have, therefore, been seeking an alternative to use in my theological writings. Before I come to that, though, let's just give a very brief overview of the issues surrounding the two above-cited problems:

As those who have discussed ideas with me with know, I maintain a pretty radical apothatic approach, and also criticise the anthropomorphic perception of G-d. That is to say, the application of inherently 'human' characteristics, emotions and behaviour to G-d, rather than understanding that these are entirely human constructions, and that G-d so transcends human understanding that applying such attributes to 'Him' (used for the sake of clarity) is inherently pathetic. So, of course, using a word like 'He,' ascribing a human (or, more precisely, worldly) concept of masculinity or malehood is a ludicrous suggestion, and wholly inaccurate.

Even if we were to act merely by 'His' actions (or, how we interpret them), we would be foolish to think that this infers masculinity. That is to say, G-d is obviously not sexed, being incorporeal, so using 'He' to imply a male sex is nonsensical. G-d can also not be gendered, considering all that stuff is just social construction, and even if we could interact with G-d on an interpersonal level, 'His' acting in a supposedly 'manly' way wouldn't be enough to ascribe masculinity on 'Him.' This is even without the issue, as mentioned above, of human concepts being totally inapplicable to G-d, including, of course, any idea of 'appropriate' behaviour, such as what is supposedly 'appropriate' for a masculine figure. Or, in fact, 'appropriate' for an entity to be referred to as 'good' or 'angry' or anything else. Pretty much I've covered all this stuff before, I feel.

There's the issue then, of course, that referring to G-d, who is explicitly non-sexed and non-gendered as 'He' contributes to some form of patriarchy, expressed in the language itself. It seems inappropriate for a progressive theology to continue forwarding such misconceptions, even if not explicitly, through the choice of language. Of course I could say, as has been said for centuries, 'of course G-d is not male,' and claim that my use of the word 'He' is merely for convenience, so as to be understood, given the prevailing use of the word to refer to G-d. However, this now seems inadequate, and I feel it more important to step back and abandon the word 'He,' not only as a theological statement, on the basis that the word 'He,' or, the ascribing of sex and/or gender to G-d totally contradicts apophatic theology, but also as a means of explicitly countering any patriarchal vestiges.

So I was seeking a new word. It was first suggested that I use the 'S_He/H*/H*' set of pronouns, as may be used to achieve gender-neutrality in other areas. I quickly dismissed this, as it still seems to have worldly sex/gender ideas as its starting point, and this doesn't overcome the issue with 'He' as a means to ascribe human characteristics to G-d. I was also reluctant to embrace it for its not being a remotely accurate translation of the Hebrew (more on this later).

The next possibility was to use the 'They/Them/Their' set, or even the Spivak pronouns, yes this still seemed to remain in the realm of the mortal. That is to say, I could use 'Ey/Em/Eir,' but these pronouns are both obscure and, when used, only applied to people or, at a stretch, animals. Nobody would call a door 'ey,' as far as I'm aware, suggesting that the word still retains a certain degree of...well, 'mortality,' the suggestion of a living being. So, alas, I continue my search...

Approaching the Hebrew...one should be aware that Hebrew is a gendered language, with a masculine and feminine gender. Like many such languages, though, there is no distinction between 'it' for a grammatically masculine noun and 'he.' That is to say, both animate and inanimate 'masculine' objects would be referred to as 'he.' This suggested to me that one could accurate translate the Hebrew with the word 'It.' This overcomes the issues of ascribing some 'mortality' or 'humanity' to G-d and, unlike 'S_He,' there can be no suggestion that I am not remaining true to the Hebrew. I also prefer it to using, for example, a dedicated pronoun, such as the Spivak pronouns, as this could raise the question of why there was no dedicated pronoun in the Hebrew. It's important to cover all the bases, to ensure that the word used fits in with the original Hebrew, so that it can be called an accurate translation, whilst also avoiding applying human characteristics to G-d, or supporting any kind of patriarchic understanding...

So yeah, this is what I've been thinking lately. I wonder if anybody else has considered this issue, and, if so, if they have come to a conclusion. You're also free to suggest other words I could use, or, if you are so inclined, just say 'yeah, rabbi, 'It' is a great choice, you're so fluggin' brilliant sometimes!' :rolleyes:

(And also, as it seems to be the theme in the religion section at the moment: notice how I'm discussing progressive social theology? This is the kind of shit I would(n't actually) have put in one of those religion groups if they still existed, but alas, I'm just spamming this subforum with my ramblings instead :lol:)

JustMovement
8th July 2011, 14:20
Well its an interesting point, because any attempt to find a pronoun to describe God is an implicit comment on Gods nature. Now it seems like a good solution for the reasons you mentioned , but it could be criticised for being irreverant, as the word it, in my mind at least, has slightly pejorative connotations, since an object is lower than something that is alive. Furthermore the word it, as an inanimate pronoun, might seem to deny agency to God.

They, them, their attracted me originally, as it implies as interesting understanding of God as one who transcends the single/many dichotomy. The plural implies a pantheistic understanding of God, a God that permeates everything and is indeed the universe. Also, if I remember correctly the plural was sometimes used in the Hebrew? However it does contradict understanding God as a unitary concept.

My understanding of where the He, him, etc comes from is that man was made in Gods image (while woman was a rib of man).

Anyways, see an example of how an atheist can contribute politely to a theistic discussion!

Hit The North
10th July 2011, 17:23
As an imaginary being I doubt God cares what sex is assigned to it.

The patriarchy which formed and continues to shape the notion of single creator Gods has long been self-evident to all critics of religion and its negation is unlikely to trigger a radical social impulse amongst the religious. I mean, the Christians managed to split the unitary God into a trinity and still neglected to give it a feminine persona!

"When God made man, she was only joking," is a neat feminist joke from the 1960s.

Of course, the idea that God, which is a personification of collective human powers, can be conceived without gender is nonsensical because as soon as you depersonalise God, turn him/her/them into a thing, it ceases to be God.

hatzel
11th July 2011, 03:24
Now it seems like a good solution for the reasons you mentioned , but it could be criticised for being irreverant

I've already been sharply criticised by a friend for exactly that reason, so should have seen it coming :lol:


They, them, their attracted me originally, as it implies as interesting understanding of God as one who transcends the single/many dichotomy.Yeah, that would be my usual choice (as I use it in pretty much every other context and am very happy that English has such a word), but in this case, as you identified, there is an issue with the suggestion of plurality. One need only look at those Spaniards, who refused to say 'Ðios' (even though that's not actually a plural) and instead said 'El Ðio' to get an idea of aversion to the suggestion of plurality...hence I am reluctant to employ it...


My understanding of where the He, him, etc comes from is that man was made in Gods image (while woman was a rib of man).I know this may not be the thread to get into this discussion, but I would personally debate such a viewpoint, even though it's often accepted as true, on the basis of it being logically inconsistent. That is to say, if one can remove a whole entity, in this case Eve, from another, in this case Adam, then one cannot say that pre-Eve Adam (or, Primal Adam, Adam Kadmon) is synonymous with subsequent Adam, and, consequently, that pre-Eve Adam was male in any sense that we would understand the term. As both Adam and Eve existed within the entity that was Primal Adam, the initial human would necessarily have transcended both sex and gender. It could only have been with the separation of Primal Adam into two distinct entities that the concept of malehood could come into being, in part due to the creation of an anatomical male analogous to contemporary males, and in part due to its being defined in contradistinction to its female counterpart :)


Anyways, see an example of how an atheist can contribute politely to a theistic discussion!Huzzah! :lol:


As an imaginary being I doubt God cares what sex is assigned to it.

Luckily, as you well know, nobody has made any reference to what sex any (non)entity wants assigned to itself (and I have reread the thread to confirm this); instead the discussion has been one of the real-world consequences of language usage in a theological context, and the importance of considered decisions when it comes to word-choice.

Or, alternatively, I could say that It (I'm sticking to that word, at least in this thread, as I've introduced the usage) obviously doesn't care, because It is incapable of doing so, 'caring' being an entirely human activity, devised by humans and defined as per the definition of the verb in the English language. As I said up there *points*, I do not find such concepts applicable to non-human (non)entities, much less to those which can not even be readily identified. As such, I agree that It does not, can not and will not care what sex is assigned to it.


Of course, the idea that God, which is a personification of collective human powers, can be conceived without gender is nonsensical because as soon as you depersonalise God, turn him/her/them into a thing, it ceases to be God.Interestingly enough, if you were to recast this as a complete polar opposite of that statement, then you'd have a pretty fair representation of my position :)

Incidentally, it is my understanding that 'powers,' human or otherwise, is an abstract noun, and thus indisputably genderless, so I see no reason why this amalgamation of them must necessarily take on any specific gender, except for to make some two-bit comment that totally contradicts the actual opinions expressed by those who, dare I say it, may have a somewhat more focused theological understanding than you have found desire to develop for yourself...

Hit The North
11th July 2011, 11:05
Luckily, as you well know, nobody has made any reference to what sex any (non)entity wants assigned to itself (and I have reread the thread to confirm this); instead the discussion has been one of the real-world consequences of language usage in a theological context, and the importance of considered decisions when it comes to word-choice.


You are missing the irony of my point - an imaginary being is incapable of desiring anything for itself as it does not exist.

Meanwhile, the idea that renaming God as an 'It' will contribute to positive social change discloses the philosophical idealism at the heart of your project of social transformation.



Incidentally, it is my understanding that 'powers,' human or otherwise, is an abstract noun, and thus indisputably genderless, so I see no reason why this amalgamation of them must necessarily take on any specific gender, except for to make some two-bit comment that totally contradicts the actual opinions expressed by those who, dare I say it, may have a somewhat more focused theological understanding than you have found desire to develop for yourself...


Again, you miss my point. "Gods", whether they reside in Asgard, Olympus or Heaven, are personifications of human powers. As personifications, they must necessarily have a gendered identity in order to be recognisable and comprehensible within the various narrative constructions in which they are created. There is not a single deity-based religion that conceives that deity as a mere force or power in the abstract.

If you reduce God to an abstract force, then you lose intentionality and, therefore, a sense of moral structure to the universe. In that case, you might as well abandon an all-seeing God in favour of a blind Nature.

hatzel
11th July 2011, 15:44
My apologies, I was blissfully unaware that it was atheists who set the rules of what theism must and mustn't be :)

Hit The North
11th July 2011, 16:28
My apologies, I was blissfully unaware that it was atheists who set the rules of what theism must and mustn't be :)

Instead of being evasive through coyness, why not tell me about the world religions that have successfully marketed a depersonalised, alien and detached God. Then maybe you can describe the emancipatory effect this conception of God has had on its adherents. Then we can take seriously your claim that negating the gender of your illusory being will have a progressive effect on our social relations.

To be honest, as I alluded to in my first post, this issue has already been tackled in feminist theory and the patriarchal bones of the Abrahamic religions have been thoroughly picked over.

Today, in the UK, you get women vicars, advertisers invite women to "free their inner Goddess", and everyone is free to view God as either male, female, or lady-boy, and it hasn't made a scrap of difference to the real power relations in society.

Capitalism doesn't require a God of whatever dubious sexual designation or none; and neither will workers when it comes time to overthrow capitalist domination.

28350
11th July 2011, 20:34
from my hardcore kabbalah readings i've understood the shabbos queen to be the female complement to yahoowahoo