Corrupt British establishment

[Threetune]

The corrupt British establishment is ripping itself to bits again as the stains of managing the economic crisis burst out into dangerous scandals over phone tapping, corrupt cops, advertising boycotts, bent TV contracts and much more. All their attempts to pull together in this “crisis” are falling apart. Great lessons for workers about “freedom and democracy” crap will prepare the way for more revolutionary “fight backs” against “we’re all in it together” big society cuts .
Leninist revolutionary theory will be vital to lead the way against 'left' reformist pacifist and nationalist sellout shite.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk

[bcbm]

Leninist revolutionary theory will be vital to lead the way against 'left' reformist pacifist and nationalist sellout shite.

god help us

[danyboy27]

the whole system is failling apopart indeed.

[Threetune]

god help us


You pry to you're god if you think it will help you, but revolutionary Leninism is what will be decisive in this world.

“The difference between us and the reformists (i.e., the Grütlians in Switzerland) is not that we oppose reforms while they favour them. Nothing of the kind. They confine themselves to reforms and as a result stoop—in the apt expression of one (rare!) revolutionary writer in the Schweizerische Metallarbeiter-Zeitung (No. 40)—to the role of “hospital orderly for capitalism”.

"We tell the workers: vote for proportional representation, etc., but don’t stop at that. Make it your prime duty systematically to spread the idea of immediate socialist revolution, prepare for this revolution and radically reconstruct every aspect of party activity. “

“The conditions of bourgeois democracy very often compel us to take a certain stand on a multitude of small and petty reforms, but we must be able, or learn, to take such a position on these reforms (in such a manner) that—to oversimplify the matter for the sake of clarity—five minutes of every half-hour speech are devoted to reforms and twenty-five minutes to the coming revolution.”

http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/dec/00b.htm

[nuisance]

You pry to you're god if you think it will help you, but revolutionary Leninism is what will be decisive in this world.


are you joking? :laugh:

[bcbm]

You pry to you're god if you think it will help you, but revolutionary Leninism is what will be decisive in this world.

“The difference between us and the reformists (i.e., the Grütlians in Switzerland) is not that we oppose reforms while they favour them. Nothing of the kind. They confine themselves to reforms and as a result stoop—in the apt expression of one (rare!) revolutionary writer in the Schweizerische Metallarbeiter-Zeitung (No. 40)—to the role of “hospital orderly for capitalism”.

"We tell the workers: vote for proportional representation, etc., but don’t stop at that. Make it your prime duty systematically to spread the idea of immediate socialist revolution, prepare for this revolution and radically reconstruct every aspect of party activity. “

“The conditions of bourgeois democracy very often compel us to take a certain stand on a multitude of small and petty reforms, but we must be able, or learn, to take such a position on these reforms (in such a manner) that—to oversimplify the matter for the sake of clarity—five minutes of every half-hour speech are devoted to reforms and twenty-five minutes to the coming revolution.”

http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/dec/00b.htm

and tha lord god said the past shall conquer the future lo

[danyboy27]

You pry to you're god if you think it will help you, but revolutionary Leninism is what will be decisive in this world.

“The difference between us and the reformists (i.e., the Grütlians in Switzerland) is not that we oppose reforms while they favour them. Nothing of the kind. They confine themselves to reforms and as a result stoop—in the apt expression of one (rare!) revolutionary writer in the Schweizerische Metallarbeiter-Zeitung (No. 40)—to the role of “hospital orderly for capitalism”.

"We tell the workers: vote for proportional representation, etc., but don’t stop at that. Make it your prime duty systematically to spread the idea of immediate socialist revolution, prepare for this revolution and radically reconstruct every aspect of party activity. “

“The conditions of bourgeois democracy very often compel us to take a certain stand on a multitude of small and petty reforms, but we must be able, or learn, to take such a position on these reforms (in such a manner) that—to oversimplify the matter for the sake of clarity—five minutes of every half-hour speech are devoted to reforms and twenty-five minutes to the coming revolution.”

http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/dec/00b.htm
Leninist exceptionalism is something verry narrow minded and stupid you know.

We should be helping eachother and embrace multiplicity to advance our cause instead of making a pissing contest about what is the best leftist ideology.

[nuisance]

secret vanguard is secret.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Please someone ban this vile troll.:rolleyes:

[bcbm]

Leninist exceptionalism is something verry narrow minded and stupid you know.

We should be helping eachother and embrace multiplicity to advance our cause instead of making a pissing contest about what is the best leftist ideology.

nah we're just assholes on the edge of history fighitng over nothing while history moves on without us

[danyboy27]

I seriously believe Leninists have a role to play in the shaping of a future society, i really do, i just dont buy that exceptionalism bullshit.

Diverging opinions are good and necessary in order to develop new idea, but it cant be done if one or many side believe in exceptionalism.

[bcbm]

I seriously believe Leninists have a role to play in the shaping of a future society, i really do

i pray you are wrong

[Kamos]

Please someone ban this vile troll.:rolleyes:

And we're the ones who always want to shoot people.:rolleyes:

[Rooster]

Diverging opinions are good and necessary in order to develop new idea, but it cant be done if one or many side believe in exceptionalism.

It's kinda hard to have diverging opinions when one group tries their best to have no diverging opinions.

[danyboy27]

And we're the ones who always want to shoot people.:rolleyes:

Look, Individuals like threetune are only creating further division between the ML and the left communists, Nothing constructive will ever come from a person who believe in exceptionalism like him. The sooner threetune stop his vile rethoric, the sooner intelligent debates can re-emerge between the two groups.

Personally i am just so fucking sick and tired of all this unproductive bickering and fighting, i wish we could debate on issues that would lead to something productive like new ideas.

[Crux]

You pry to you're god if you think it will help you, but revolutionary Leninism is what will be decisive in this world.

“The difference between us and the reformists (i.e., the Grütlians in Switzerland) is not that we oppose reforms while they favour them. Nothing of the kind. They confine themselves to reforms and as a result stoop—in the apt expression of one (rare!) revolutionary writer in the Schweizerische Metallarbeiter-Zeitung (No. 40)—to the role of “hospital orderly for capitalism”.

"We tell the workers: vote for proportional representation, etc., but don’t stop at that. Make it your prime duty systematically to spread the idea of immediate socialist revolution, prepare for this revolution and radically reconstruct every aspect of party activity. “

“The conditions of bourgeois democracy very often compel us to take a certain stand on a multitude of small and petty reforms, but we must be able, or learn, to take such a position on these reforms (in such a manner) that—to oversimplify the matter for the sake of clarity—five minutes of every half-hour speech are devoted to reforms and twenty-five minutes to the coming revolution.”

http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/dec/00b.htm
And here I thought you were with the nationalists and pacifists....:rolleyes: And yeah, no quote.mining does not make you a Leninist. You've always been on the other side of the barricades as far as I have seen. Not that I think you are, you know, actually active or relelevant.

[Threetune]

The pant-wetting “credit crunch” which took the world to the edge of the abyss, when the high street cash machines were just hours from being shut down was followed by “quantitative easing” pumping trillions of worthless paper dollars into the bank system to save it. Now bigger potential “debt-default” crisis is now looming:
China warns U.S. idea is "playing with fire"
By Emily Kaiser Emily Kaiser – Wed Jun 8, 8:41 pm ET
Posted July 3, 2011

SINGAPORE (Reuters) – Republican lawmakers are "playing with fire" by contemplating even a brief
debt default as a means to force deeper government spending cuts, an adviser to China's central bank
said on Wednesday.

The idea of a technical default -- essentially delaying interest payments for a few days -- has gained
backing from a growing number of mainstream Republicans who see it as a price worth paying if it
forces the White House to slash spending, Reuters reported on Tuesday.
http://www.colinandrews.net/2012-Economy.html (http://www.colinandrews.net/2012-Economy.html)

This and the growing mass revolutionary outbreaks across the world together with growing domestic resistance to wage and welfare cuts is what is fuelling divisions and squabbles between imperialist rivals and stressing post WWII anti-communist capitalist consensus politics.

The domestic politics of every capitalist state will succumb to this crisis disintegration, exposing all the foul cynical exploitation long covered by post-war inflationary boom parliamentary cosiness. Unsurprisingly, the capitalist press manipulation of the British parliamentary racket at the centre of the current “phone tapping scandal,” is showing how all “democratic” parliamentary parties have been in thrall to the Murdoch press, and through him and the banks, to all the big capitalist interests and no amount of tinkering reforming commissions is going to alter these corrupt relation or cover them up.


The British working class already contemptuous of the parliamentary “expenses scandal”, the “banking crisis”, and the “pensions crisis” will again be asked to swallow the “press and police corruption crisis”, and that followed swiftly by the “wage cut crisis” etc, etc. And in the middle of all this the union bosses are telling workers the big lie about “winning back the conditions of the past.” And behind them are the ‘lefts’ never raising the need for revolutionary theory to expose the utter stupid uselessness of the whole rotten corrupt wasteful violent monstrosity that capitalism is, and the need to smash its degenerate state organisation. Not a word in the ‘left’ press on these lines, and if you don’t believe it, go and have a look at the cringing economism tail-ending everything from ‘spontaneity’ to ‘left’ Labour and unionism and completely shy and embarrassed to advance Lenin’s incisive understanding on these matters.

“The conditions of bourgeois democracy very often compel us to take a certain stand on a multitude of small and petty reforms, but we must be able, or learn, to take such a position on these reforms (in such a manner) that—to oversimplify the matter for the sake of clarity—five minutes of every half-hour speech are devoted to reforms and twenty-five minutes to the coming revolution.” Lenin

Could the party members of the ‘left’ groups around Revleft raise this with their leaderships for some open debate in front of the working class? Or are you content to continue hinting that “with a bit more pressure” and “another big demo” and an even bigger “general strike” we can “win back”! the services, cuts, and pensions. Anyone telling workers that, or hiding the facts obout this crisis disintegration, is either a naïve or telling a big lie.

[danyboy27]

Could the party members of the ‘left’ groups around Revleft raise this with their leaderships for some open debate in front of the working class? Or are you content to continue hinting that “with a bit more pressure” and “another big demo” and an even bigger “general strike” we can “win back”! the services, cuts, and pensions. Anyone telling workers that, or hiding the facts obout this crisis disintegration, is either a naïve or telling a big lie.

I think both actions dosnt exclude eachother. We are all shooting in the same direction after all.

Stop being so divisive.

[agnixie]

When did you stop being a left nationalist? Your trolling was more entertaining.

[Threetune]

News of the World last issue next Sunday, but will the ‘Sun on Sunday’ take its place?
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0707/breaking2.html (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0707/breaking2.html)

[Tim Finnegan]

You pry to you're god if you think it will help you, but revolutionary Leninism is what will be decisive in this world.
That's not a very materialistic perspective.

[Manic Impressive]

Forgetting Threetune's sectarianism for a minute, he does have a point. This fuck up from the right wing of the establishment has the potential to be huge. Because they've alienated a part of their base, I mean you couldn't ask for a worse scenario for them hacking a murder victim's phone and dead soldiers families phones. Then you've got the police covering it up and probably people in government too. This has to raise class conciousness and distrust in the ruling class. We won't see much reaction from this now but shit like this is significant and it all adds up in the end.

[Threetune]

Labour will try to rescue Cameron.
The criminal gangs of press, police, and parliament are tonight struggling desperately to rescue themselves from total exposure and condemnation from the growing fury over the hideous capitalist made trafficking in human suffering between the Metropolitan Police and top journalists.

Andy Coulson, David Cameron's former director of communications is up to his neck in ‘News of the World’ sleaze and will be lucky not to be arrested soon, focusing more attention on his relationship with the Prime Minister and Cameron’s close friendship with Rebekah Brooks , chief executive at Murdoch’s News International and his BSkyB takeover.

Entertaining as it is to speculate on which heads might role in all this, there’s no knowing the precise calculations being made by the political class and while Ed Miliband is making threatening noises in a broadside against the Cameron it is likely that he will work to save the establishment like a well mannered “loyal opposition” always should.

Workers organizations on the other hand could step-up demands for bringing down the already hated coalition government for the criminal conspiracy against the working class that it is.

[Crux]

Workers organizations on the other hand could step-up demands for bringing down the already hated coalition government for the criminal conspiracy against the working class that it is.
I thought they should focus on defending the Libyan regime?

[Threetune]

For all the critics who say that the ‘left’ is revolutionary, here is the evidence that they don’t ever agitate for revolutionary Marxism-Leninism in their popular papers.

These snippets are the pathetic nearest this lot get this week to a revolutionary speech.

Can anyone else find anything revolutionary elsewhere ?

As I said above, telling worker that they can” beat the cuts.” “solve the economic crisis” or otherwise have ‘another big push’ increasing “combativity” to win the fight against cuts etc, is just a foul opportunist lie when revolutionary theory and preparations are what is needed now.

“Come to the Socialist Party meetings this week and discuss where we go from here, the case for socialism and how we can build mass action to beat the cuts.” http://www.socialistpartyscotland.org.uk/news-a-analysis/uk-news/294-after-the-tuc-demo-build-a-24-hour-general-strike (http://www.socialistpartyscotland.org.uk/news-a-analysis/uk-news/294-after-the-tuc-demo-build-a-24-hour-general-strike)

“That is why a crucial step towards solving the economic crisis would be to take the big corporations that dominate Britain's economy into democratic public ownership.” http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/articles/12343/06-07-2011/what-next-to-defeat-the-cuts (http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/articles/12343/06-07-2011/what-next-to-defeat-the-cuts)

“…,there can be no revolution without a mass revolutionary party. And a couple of thousand members grouped in the SWP is not it. …” “…“But we should avoid leftist posturing, especially of the kind that is first and foremost about building the sect, (or party? Ed) not the actual combativity of the working class.”
http://www.cpgb.org.uk/article.php?article_id=1004466 (http://www.cpgb.org.uk/article.php?article_id=1004466)

“These examples show up the government spin. And next time we can hit them even harder.” http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=25330 (http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=25330)

Edit: 12/07/2011 Should be this link not the one above.

http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=25303

[Crux]

Oh how lucky they are to have you then, master of revolutionary phrases.

[Threetune]

As said above: “Labour will try to rescue Cameron. Ed Miliband is making threatening noises in a broadside against the Cameron it is likely that he will work to save the establishment like a well mannered “loyal opposition” always should.”

And this is just one reason why.

"I know of a number of infringements of the law of which Mr Baldwin has been guilty but, for the purposes of this blog, I will limit consideration to the commissioning of a private detective to break into a bank account. This took place in 1999, when Mr Baldwin was a senior journalist at The Times, News International's flagship daily, a position he held until his appointment by Mr Miliband". Michael Ashcroft, a former deputy Conservative chairman.http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/jul/08/tory-past-behaviour-tom-baldwin (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/jul/08/tory-past-behaviour-tom-baldwin)

It beggars belief that 57 varieties of ‘radical left’ in Britain still run around at every election urging workers to vote Labor, but they do. Why? Because they have completely abandoned any revolutionary exposure of the degenerate democracy parliamentary racket.

They are only too eager to print acres of attacks on any and every enemy of imperialism, demanding that governments be toppled and their leaders jailed or executed, but when it comes to agitating (even against an open goal like this NotW scandal) for revolutionary criticism they go all shy and even go out of the way to attack and attempt to silence anyone who raises question.

[danyboy27]

stop putting the word left between quotation marks, its annoying.

[Crux]

As said above: “Labour will try to rescue Cameron. Ed Miliband is making threatening noises in a broadside against the Cameron it is likely that he will work to save the establishment like a well mannered “loyal opposition” always should.”

And this is just one reason why.

"I know of a number of infringements of the law of which Mr Baldwin has been guilty but, for the purposes of this blog, I will limit consideration to the commissioning of a private detective to break into a bank account. This took place in 1999, when Mr Baldwin was a senior journalist at The Times, News International's flagship daily, a position he held until his appointment by Mr Miliband". Michael Ashcroft, a former deputy Conservative chairman.http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/jul/08/tory-past-behaviour-tom-baldwin (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/jul/08/tory-past-behaviour-tom-baldwin)

It beggars belief that 57 varieties of ‘radical left’ in Britain still run around at every election urging workers to vote Labor, but they do. Why? Because they have completely abandoned any revolutionary exposure of the degenerate democracy parliamentary racket.

They are only too eager to print acres of attacks on any and every enemy of imperialism, demanding that governments be toppled and their leaders jailed or executed, but when it comes to agitating (even against an open goal like this NotW scandal) for revolutionary criticism they go all shy and even go out of the way to attack and attempt to silence anyone who raises question.
You protest too much. The Socialist Party certainly does not back Labour. And yeah I could bring up quotes and links to prove you wrong but really, waste of time, it's already pretty apparent to anyone. But keep bringing out those revolutionary phrases, man.

[Coach Trotsky]

Leninist exceptionalism is something verry narrow minded and stupid you know.

We should be helping eachother and embrace multiplicity to advance our cause instead of making a pissing contest about what is the best leftist ideology.

When the other Leftists start helping us strive toward revolution in the manner that Lenin talks about in Threetune's quote, then we'll have something to "help each other" on. Sure, let's get together FOR SOCIALIST REVOLUTION. But to get together in a Popular Front and play liberal with the bourgeois liberals...no thanks.

[Coach Trotsky]

stop putting the word left between quotation marks, its annoying.

Show us a Left consistently worthy of that name today, worthy of the respect of the workers and oppressed!

I hope someone is taking note of the users who posted on this thread in oppostion to what Threetune said here in this thread.
Why? Because when the heat is on in their own country's national election cycles, I want to know how many of these users will be saying something like "but we have to vote for Obama, or the Republicans will get the White House" (or some similar sellout Popular Front call for voting for "the lesser evil" in their own countries' political context). When they say that sort of thing, I hope it is clear why we CAN NOT 'get together' and help them.

[agnixie]

stop putting the word left between quotation marks, its annoying.

Anarchists and Council communists are, like, totally liberals.

[Coach Trotsky]

Anarchists and Council communists are, like, totally liberals.

Judge them by their deeds.

[danyboy27]

Show us a Left consistently worthy of that name today, worthy of the respect of the workers and oppressed!

I hope someone is taking note of the users who posted on this thread in oppostion to what Threetune said here in this thread.
Why? Because when the heat is on in their own country's national election cycles, I want to know how many of these users will be saying something like "but we have to vote for Obama, or the Republicans will get the White House" (or some similar sellout Popular Front call for voting for "the lesser evil" in their own countries' political context). When they say that sort of thing, I hope it is clear why we CAN NOT 'get together' and help them.

Nobody here is supporting the social democrat, if that was the case, that person would be restricted.

the reason why there are so many inflamatory comment is beccause the only thing threetune do on this forum is posting endless quote of lenin without putting them in context, pointing out that the only true way is the way of lenin.

He is like a fucking randroid, but instead of spamming with atlas shrugged quote, he use lenin writting.

[Rainsborough]

Nobody here is supporting the social democrat, if that was the case, that person would be restricted.

the reason why there are so many inflamatory comment is beccause the only thing threetune do on this forum is posting endless quote of lenin without putting them in context, pointing out that the only true way is the way of lenin.

He is like a fucking randroid, but instead of spamming with atlas shrugged quote, he use lenin writting.

Oh, I see it's not the message, merely the messenger (in this case threetune)? :rolleyes:

[agnixie]

Oh, I see it's not the message, merely the messenger (in this case threetune)? :rolleyes:

it's also the message, I'm amazed at how sectarian he is in the middle of the trolling.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

And we're the ones who always want to shoot people.:rolleyes:

Banning a flaming troll =/= enthusiastically supporting the murder of hundreds of thousands of people, but yeah whatever.

If you look at the Revleft entry on the 'trolling' page in Encyclopaedia Dramatica, you will find that Threetune darling is using all the correct trolling tactics.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

For all the critics who say that the ‘left’ is revolutionary, here is the evidence that they don’t ever agitate for revolutionary Marxism-Leninism in their popular papers.

These snippets are the pathetic nearest this lot get this week to a revolutionary speech.

Can anyone else find anything revolutionary elsewhere ?

As I said above, telling worker that they can” beat the cuts.” “solve the economic crisis” or otherwise have ‘another big push’ increasing “combativity” to win the fight against cuts etc, is just a foul opportunist lie when revolutionary theory and preparations are what is needed now.

“Come to the Socialist Party meetings this week and discuss where we go from here, the case for socialism and how we can build mass action to beat the cuts.” http://www.socialistpartyscotland.org.uk/news-a-analysis/uk-news/294-after-the-tuc-demo-build-a-24-hour-general-strike (http://www.socialistpartyscotland.org.uk/news-a-analysis/uk-news/294-after-the-tuc-demo-build-a-24-hour-general-strike)

“That is why a crucial step towards solving the economic crisis would be to take the big corporations that dominate Britain's economy into democratic public ownership.” http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/articles/12343/06-07-2011/what-next-to-defeat-the-cuts (http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/articles/12343/06-07-2011/what-next-to-defeat-the-cuts)

“…,there can be no revolution without a mass revolutionary party. And a couple of thousand members grouped in the SWP is not it. …” “…“But we should avoid leftist posturing, especially of the kind that is first and foremost about building the sect, (or party? Ed) not the actual combativity of the working class.”
http://www.cpgb.org.uk/article.php?article_id=1004466 (http://www.cpgb.org.uk/article.php?article_id=1004466)

“These examples show up the government spin. And next time we can hit them even harder.” http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=25330 (http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=25330)

If you were a struggling worker instead of some rich kid stuck behind his computer posting nonsense, you'd probably want to solve the economic crisis as well.

It's quite clear that you're:
a) a troll OR
b) your aim is to advance your own ideology's political power-grab agenda rather than accept that sometimes you have to compromise for the good of the working class.

After all, if you're not in Socialism to help empower the working class and improve their material lot, then you shouldn't be here.

[Rainsborough]

it's also the message, I'm amazed at how sectarian he is in the middle of the trolling.

So, quoting Lenin is trolling? Are you suggesting that Lenin is no longer acceptable on here?

[Crux]

Show us a Left consistently worthy of that name today, worthy of the respect of the workers and oppressed!

I hope someone is taking note of the users who posted on this thread in oppostion to what Threetune said here in this thread.
Why? Because when the heat is on in their own country's national election cycles, I want to know how many of these users will be saying something like "but we have to vote for Obama, or the Republicans will get the White House" (or some similar sellout Popular Front call for voting for "the lesser evil" in their own countries' political context). When they say that sort of thing, I hope it is clear why we CAN NOT 'get together' and help them.
I sure as hell didn't, neither does the CWI. Stop strawmanning. Oh and I doubt threetune is much opposed to "Popular Fronts", quite the opposite it seems.

[Threetune]

The issue is revolutionary POLITICS. In the midst of the most deadly economic crisis in the history of human development, threatening wellbeing and lives of everyone “Because there is too much civilisation, too much means of subsistence, too much industry, too much commerce. The productive forces at the disposal of society no longer tend to further the development of the conditions of bourgeois property” from Communist Manifesto by Marx and Engels.) and this NotW scandal is exposing the corrupt workings of the state and its relationship with big capital in a way that gives communists the priceless opportunity to agitate against the lie that “parliamentary democracy” represents the will of the people and that ‘we’ have a free press and a police force that protects ‘us’ from the bad people.


Every vested interest in Britain is going to be working overtime now to get control back again, make suitable apologetic noises, promise drastic reform, bring the wrongdoers to book, etc before getting back to business as usual, hiding the depth of economic crisis, pushing its effects on to the backs of the working class – fiddling expenses, intimidating opponents, manipulating elections, taking bribes, but never ever doing anything about the root course of all crisis and misery – THE CAPITALIS SYSTEM ITSELF!


The “beat the cuts” sloganising sends the wrong message to workers, it suggests that a bit more pushing will save their pensions or reveres the cuts etc, “solving the economic crisis” is just delusional when this economic mayhem is heading pell-mell for all out trade war and more shooting war and no amount of window dressing around the corrupt state is going to alter that.

By all means protest strike and boycott etc but tell the whole story, stop trying to lead workers along with half baked reformist nonsense about ‘nationalising’ industry as a “solution”.


It’s my experience that in Britain the ‘left’ activists have been, and are still being, schooled in not making revolutionary interventions in meetings, picket lines, and demonstrations. If they approach the question at all’ its done with a nod and a wink as if to say “we are putting forward reformist policies now, but really we are very radical even rrrrrevolutionaries” “Just look at our ‘theoretical journals and our “internal” documents, it’s obvious we’re revolutionaries”.


But if any workers turn up and say, “can we talk about the revolutionary potential in this struggle” they are immediately ostracised, told to shut up, slandered and even physically intimidated by the “LEFTS”! We just have to look at this thread to see the response to a political intervention, almost all the criticism of the OP is utterly devoid of politics. Trying to get people banned instead of coming to grips with the analysis, blatant lying about people without providing a shred of evidence ever being presented. Its dreary bureaucracy is what it is, shilly-shallying and game playing but no revolutionary POLITICS. No attempt to put up an analysis of developments beyond some wiseacre smartass wisecracks.


Millions starving, war everywhere, corruption and economic collapse environmental ruin and ruled over by self serving “democratic” parliamentary parasites and frauds and precisely because of this, increasing numbers of workers are looking for revolutionary answers. If Leninist revolutionary theory isn’t right, just say what is. Present your own analysis and POLITICS.

[Crux]

The issue is revolutionary POLITICS. In the midst of the most deadly economic crisis in the history of human development, threatening wellbeing and lives of everyone “Because there is too much civilisation, too much means of subsistence, too much industry, too much commerce. The productive forces at the disposal of society no longer tend to further the development of the conditions of bourgeois property” from Communist Manifesto by Marx and Engels.) and this NotW scandal is exposing the corrupt workings of the state and its relationship with big capital in a way that gives communists the priceless opportunity to agitate against the lie that “parliamentary democracy” represents the will of the people and that ‘we’ have a free press and a police force that protects ‘us’ from the bad people.


Every vested interest in Britain is going to be working overtime now to get control back again, make suitable apologetic noises, promise drastic reform, bring the wrongdoers to book, etc before getting back to business as usual, hiding the depth of economic crisis, pushing its effects on to the backs of the working class – fiddling expenses, intimidating opponents, manipulating elections, taking bribes, but never ever doing anything about the root course of all crisis and misery – THE CAPITALIS SYSTEM ITSELF!


The “beat the cuts” sloganising sends the wrong message to workers, it suggests that a bit more pushing will save their pensions or reveres the cuts etc, “solving the economic crisis” is just delusional when this economic mayhem is heading pell-mell for all out trade war and more shooting war and no amount of window dressing around the corrupt state is going to alter that.

By all means protest strike and boycott etc but tell the whole story, stop trying to lead workers along with half baked reformist nonsense about ‘nationalising’ industry as a “solution”.


It’s my experience that in Britain the ‘left’ activists have been, and are still being, schooled in not making revolutionary interventions in meetings, picket lines, and demonstrations. If they approach the question at all’ its done with a nod and a wink as if to say “we are putting forward reformist policies now, but really we are very radical even rrrrrevolutionaries” “Just look at our ‘theoretical journals and our “internal” documents, it’s obvious we’re revolutionaries”.


But if any workers turn up and say, “can we talk about the revolutionary potential in this struggle” they are immediately ostracised, told to shut up, slandered and even physically intimidated by the “LEFTS”! We just have to look at this thread to see the response to a political intervention, almost all the criticism of the OP is utterly devoid of politics. Trying to get people banned instead of coming to grips with the analysis, blatant lying about people without providing a shred of evidence ever being presented. Its dreary bureaucracy is what it is, shilly-shallying and game playing but no revolutionary POLITICS. No attempt to put up an analysis of developments beyond some wiseacre smartass wisecracks.


Millions starving, war everywhere, corruption and economic collapse environmental ruin and ruled over by self serving “democratic” parliamentary parasites and frauds and precisely because of this, increasing numbers of workers are looking for revolutionary answers. If Leninist revolutionary theory isn’t right, just say what is. Present your own analysis and POLITICS.
See where we have threads where we actually discuss this latest news about NoW. Yours is just for you verbiosity and in fact void of any substance but very "rrrrevolutionary" indeed. And that you, not "any worker", have been thrown out of meetings of leftwing organisations hardly suprise anyone here.

[Threetune]

See where we have threads where we actually discuss this latest news about NoW. Yours is just for you verbiosity and in fact void of any substance but very "rrrrevolutionary" indeed. And that you, not "any worker", have been thrown out of meetings of leftwing organisations hardly suprise anyone here.

Where have you made a contribution to this issue?

[Threetune]

Banning a flaming troll =/= enthusiastically supporting the murder of hundreds of thousands of people, but yeah whatever.

Prove it.

[Threetune]

When did you stop being a left nationalist?

Evidence?

[danyboy27]

Oh, I see it's not the message, merely the messenger (in this case threetune)? :rolleyes:

Its not the messenger,its his attitude and the action he pose. I would dispise this behavior even if it would come from an anarchist fanboy arguing that the only true words in this world come from baikurin.

There is nothing wrong with lenin but on the other hand, there is something wrong with rejecting everything else.

I used to be like threetune long time ago, a narrow minded person hating all the ML and dismissing everything coming from them, but i grew up and decided to open myself to differents opinions from all side of the revolutionary left.

[Threetune]

If you were a struggling worker instead of some rich kid stuck behind his computer posting nonsense, you'd probably want to solve the economic crisis as well.

It's quite clear that you're:
a) a troll OR
b) your aim is to advance your own ideology's political power-grab agenda rather than accept that sometimes you have to compromise for the good of the working class.

After all, if you're not in Socialism to help empower the working class and improve their material lot, then you shouldn't be here.

But this is exactly the cringing tail-ending of the working class that I am talking about. If the bloke on the bus tells you that we can “solve the economic crisis” (SP)by striking to stop the attacks on wages and conditions or reversed them by another big protest to “ hit them even harder.” (SWP) You would agree would you? Why at that point would you not mention that only working class power can guarantee the resolution of all economic crisis chaos?

We are all for improving our “material lot,” but we are revolutionary communists who want more than “improving our material lot,” even if it were possible in this economic meltdown, we fight for the “material lot,” of all workers everywhere by the revolutionary taking of power from the dictatorship of capitalism because that is the only genuine “solution” to all the misery, starvation, environmental degradation and war.

That’s not too hard to say is it? Isn’t that better than patronisingly nodding your head in passive agreement in order to garner some spurious popularity like a bourgeois politician?

[Coach Trotsky]

Nobody here is supporting the social democrat, if that was the case, that person would be restricted.

the reason why there are so many inflamatory comment is beccause the only thing threetune do on this forum is posting endless quote of lenin without putting them in context, pointing out that the only true way is the way of lenin.

He is like a fucking randroid, but instead of spamming with atlas shrugged quote, he use lenin writting.

What point do you think Threetune is trying to make that you and others here are critical about?

[danyboy27]

What point do you think Threetune is trying to make that you and others here are critical about?

that the only way is the leninist way, and anything else is devoid of anything that could be useful or meaningful.

wich is then again an exemple of leninist exeptionalism.

[Coach Trotsky]

If you were a struggling worker instead of some rich kid stuck behind his computer posting nonsense, you'd probably want to solve the economic crisis as well.

It's quite clear that you're:
a) a troll OR
b) your aim is to advance your own ideology's political power-grab agenda rather than accept that sometimes you have to compromise for the good of the working class.

After all, if you're not in Socialism to help empower the working class and improve their material lot, then you shouldn't be here.
Compromise with whom? Compromise on what specifically? How are these compromises "good for the working class"?
Isn't it necessary for the proletariat and oppressed to conquer power (ie. to assert their own revolutionary "power-grab agenda")?

[Coach Trotsky]

that the only way is the leninist way, and anything else is devoid of anything that could be useful or meaningful.

wich is then again an exemple of leninist exeptionalism.
Well, I have to repeat what Threetune said here, "If Leninist revolutionary theory isn’t right, just say what is. Present your own analysis and POLITICS."
If there is something outside Leninism "that could be useful or meaningful" to revolutionary socialism, then the onus is upon non-Leninists to demonstrate it and then to either demonstrate why this is entirely incompatible with Leninism, or maybe the better idea is to get Leninists to integrate these "useful or meaningful" things into their theory and practice (making them actually better revolutionary Marxists and better Leninists).

[danyboy27]

Well, I have to repeat what Threetune said here, "If Leninist revolutionary theory isn’t right, just say what is. Present your own analysis and POLITICS."
If there is something outside Leninism "that could be useful or meaningful" to revolutionary socialism, then the onus is upon non-Leninists to demonstrate it and then to either demonstrate why this is entirely incompatible with Leninism, or maybe the better idea is to get Leninists to integrate these "useful or meaningful" things into their theory and practice.

Well, its obvious that leninism have its flaws beccause, well no leninist system have lasted more than 70 years, on the historic level its extremely short.

Personally, i think one of the problems with that model is the exclusive system it create for the sake of its own stability on the long run create instability.

The key i think is to be more inclusive and accepting of differents system and opinions and to learn to work together regardless of our small differences.

We are leftist after all, we ultimately want an end to this capitalist system.

[Threetune]

Because Marxsm-Leninism does not have all the answers it is always open to the development of revolutionary theory which is its life blood you could say. We are not the least interested in dogma or sectarianism but in understanding what is actually happening, explaining it and either correcting the explanation if its proved wrong or defending it vigorously if its not proved wrong.
Part and parcel of the political landscape is other political tendencies that we think are saying the wrong things to workers about “solving the economic crisis” and not taking full advantage of the open goal that the “hacking scandal” presents to agitate for a revolutionary “solution”. Get good at attacking the ruling class or as some of you put it make it “cool” to savage them at every opportunity in preparation for their ultimate defeat. Develop some partisan class spirit at least and practice writing and making anti-capitalist speeches. What’s wrong with that?

[Rooster]

Prove it.

Do you think posting here makes any difference? If you think the world is in dire need of action then go out and do something instead of writing screeds of shit.

[Coach Trotsky]

Do you think posting here makes any difference? If you think the world is in dire need of action then go out and do something instead of writing screeds of shit.

He is probably looking for other revolutionary socialist comrades who share similar perspectives and basic principles to actually go out and together intervene actively in a useful and meaningful way. So am I. This is a means to an end.

He also is probably trying to seek clarification and self-clarification by discussing this stuff with others, precisely because we do not know everything. So do I.

[danyboy27]

Because Marxsm-Leninism does not have all the answers it is always open to the development of revolutionary theory which is its life blood you could say. We are not the least interested in dogma or sectarianism but in understanding what is actually happening, explaining it and either correcting the explanation if its proved wrong or defending it vigorously if its not proved wrong.
Part and parcel of the political landscape is other political tendencies that we think are saying the wrong things to workers about “solving the economic crisis” and not taking full advantage of the open goal that the “hacking scandal” presents to agitate for a revolutionary “solution”. Get good at attacking the ruling class or as some of you put it make it “cool” to savage them at every opportunity in preparation for their ultimate defeat. Develop some partisan class spirit at least and practice writing and making anti-capitalist speeches. What’s wrong with that?

But how do you define something that is wrong? what give you that special magical ability to be the sole judge and jury in what is wrong and what is not?

[Threetune]

Do you think posting here makes any difference? If you think the world is in dire need of action then go out and do something instead of writing screeds of shit.

Ha the “why don’t you do something” argument, with which all cynical defeatist philistinism attacks the struggle for revolutionary theory. Leninist theory about this is strait forward.
Have you got anything to say about the monstrous corruption on display around the NotW scandal?

[Rooster]

Ha the “why don’t you do something” argument, with which all cynical defeatist philistinism attacks the struggle for revolutionary theory. Leninist theory about this is strait forward.
Have you got anything to say about the monstrous corruption on display around the NotW scandal?

Explain to me what this struggle for revolutionary theory is and how complaining about the left on an internet forum has to do with it. How does Leninism have any more to say about phone hacking than any other marxist theory on capitalism?

[Threetune]

But how do you define something that is wrong? what give you that special magical ability to be the sole judge and jury in what is wrong and what is not?

We don’t do it by having abstract academic arguments and we don’t get dragged into them for a start.
I opened up the discussion in the OP and gave an opinion. It wasn’t good enough so I went on to expand it and add some details and so on all the time building up theory about the current world situation CONCIOUSLY DELIBERATLY not accidentally.
If you really want to try it and find out how easy it is and prove to yourself that it is not magic start saying something political about the NotW scandal and the POLITICS of it and see what you come up with. Simple. Then improve it. And just keep doing it.

[danyboy27]

We don’t do it by having abstract academic arguments and we don’t get dragged into them for a start.
I opened up the discussion in the OP and gave an opinion. It wasn’t good enough so I went on to expand it and add some details and so on all the time building up theory about the current world situation CONCIOUSLY DELIBERATLY not accidentally.
If you really want to try it and find out how easy it is and prove to yourself that it is not magic start saying something political about the NotW scandal and the POLITICS of it and see what you come up with. Simple. Then improve it. And just keep doing it.
you didnt understood my question.

I simply asked why do you think the ML are the only one that have this ability to judge and determine what is wrong and what is not.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Compromise with whom? Compromise on what specifically? How are these compromises "good for the working class"?
Isn't it necessary for the proletariat and oppressed to conquer power (ie. to assert their own revolutionary "power-grab agenda")?

I was referring to intra-left conciliation and compromise.

[Coach Trotsky]

I was referring to intra-left conciliation and compromise.

Who's "left" in your "intra-left"?

[Rainsborough]

Well, its obvious that leninism have its flaws beccause, well no leninist system have lasted more than 70 years, on the historic level its extremely short.

Is there a socialist system that's lasted longer? Surely without Lenin the left would present nothing other than a utopianist accademic talking shop....oh hang on a minute.

[Threetune]

The question like all your contributions to this thread is so banal, so characteristic of contemporary eclectic ‘leftist’ sentiment, which amounts to nothing more than the kind of arguments heard on the back seat of a junior school bus. “you can’t tell me what to do” “you’re not the boss of me, ner neny ner ner”. And like so many of the other attacks on anyone struggling to seriously, if inadequately, develop revolutionary theory, it is couched in the “when did you stop beating your wife” clumsy accusatory style of hick lawyer .

However, you have gone some way to answering your own question, albeit from the negative side. For you, remember those two words, “… its obvious that leninism have its flaws beccause, well no leninist system have lasted more than 70 years, on the historic level its extremely short. Personally, i think one of the problems with that model is the exclusive system it create for the sake of its own stability on the long run create instability.”

To avoid the further accusation of not answering your question and giving you more excuse for not making your own assessment of the NoW scandal, oh, exept for this incisive gem of yours: “the whole system is failling apopart indeed” Indeed, I will suspend dealing with the crass ignorance in all this to pick out what Leninism is for you, i.e. “the exclusive system”. And no less than five time in this thread you refer to “exeptionalism.” Or “Leninist exceptionalism” And if this is the main charge you make, as your posts in this thread assert, then Leninism proudly and loudly pleads guilty as charged!

"We are marching in a compact group along a precipitous and difficult path, firmly holding each other by the hand. We are surrounded on all sides by enemies, and we have to advance almost constantly under their fire. We have combined, by a freely adopted decision, for the purpose of fighting the enemy, and not of retreating into the neighbouring marsh, the inhabitants of which, from the very outset, have reproached us with having separated ourselves into an exclusive group and with having chosen the path of struggle instead of the path of conciliation. And now some among us begin to cry out: Let us go into the marsh! And when we begin to shame them, they retort: What backward people you are! Are you not ashamed to deny us the liberty to invite you to take a better road! Oh, yes, gentlemen! You are free not only to invite us, but to go yourselves wherever you will, even into the marsh. In fact, we think that the marsh is your proper place, and we are prepared to render you every assistance to get there. Only let go of our hands, don't clutch at us and don't besmirch the grand word freedom, for we too are "free" to go where we please, free to fight not only against the marsh, but also against those who are turning towards the marsh!" — Vladimir Ilyich Lenin (http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/104630.Vladimir_Ilyich_Lenin) (What Is to Be Done? (http://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/1095330))

Edit: Is that in context?

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Who's "left" in your "intra-left"?

Socialists.

[Threetune]

Socialists.

Unity in action for some specific purpose is the principled Leninist method, “intra-left conciliation and compromise” in general is just rank opportunism.

[Threetune]

Banning a flaming troll =/= enthusiastically supporting the murder of hundreds of thousands of people, but yeah whatever.


Have you found that evidence yet?

[Threetune]

Explain to me what this struggle for revolutionary theory is and how complaining about the left on an internet forum has to do with it. How does Leninism have any more to say about phone hacking than any other marxist theory on capitalism?

Trying to understand developments in the class struggles and explaining them for ourselves and the working class as they are unfolding, is how we're struggling for revolutionary theory.
Leninism has more to say on this thread simply because it is only Leninism that has even attempted any kind of analysis, as inadequate as it is, as event were unfolding. Check it out. Also check out that Leninists did not START the fight.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Unity in action for some specific purpose is the principled Leninist method, “intra-left conciliation and compromise” in general is just rank opportunism.

I wasn't talking about united front tactics.

It is possible to hold a conciliatory attitude to other tendencies on the left, especially with regards to co-operation in mass action events and education events such as Marxism Festival (SWP), without becoming one mass party or a united front or whatever.

[danyboy27]

Is there a socialist system that's lasted longer? Surely without Lenin the left would present nothing other than a utopianist accademic talking shop....oh hang on a minute.

nice talk but no substance, you have no mean to demonstrate that assertion.

thanks for playing.

[Tim Finnegan]

Is there a socialist system that's lasted longer?
Is there a socialist system that has actually existed? Historical materialism, at least, says "no".

[Rainsborough]

So, Lenin wasn't a socialist then? And the USSR was never socialist? Thanks for clearing that one up then. :rolleyes:

[Threetune]

Can it be possible that Rupert Murdock and his anti-working class media empire, icon of anti-communism, friend of reactionary presidents and popes, is actually on the verge of a major defeat in the “court of public opinion” – or more accurately in the corridors of capitalist nervousness and indecision about how exactly to prosecute its military attack on the poor ‘third world’ resistance and it’s “austerity” crack-down on the large and politically restless working classes of Europe and North America in particular.

Is there a connection between the cold sweat panic in the markets ahead of the predicted revelations about more “bad number” in the economies of Europe and the US and “NoW gate” which has so rapidly become a corporate stock meltdown in its own right rippling out across the markets?

Dose any of this alert us to the richness and complexities of capitalist crisis implications for revolutionary understanding in the working class? Just a thought for now.

[danyboy27]

So, Lenin wasn't a socialist then? And the USSR was never socialist? Thanks for clearing that one up then. :rolleyes:


you might want to look up the definition of the word socialist.

[Threetune]

you might want to look up the definition of the word socialist.

And with sincere regards, you might want to look up the definition of, capitalist economic and political crisis, scandal, corruption, pollution, war, famine, torture, health care privatisation, housing shortage, education fees, food prices, wage cuts, intense ruling class infighting, insecurity, resentment, frustration, anger, protest, strikes, more strikes, demonstrations, theory! Listen carefully to what people are saying - and not saying!

Deliberately concentrate on what is happening in the world NOW, right now, and explain what you’ve learned and understand to your friends and people in your pub, café, church, sports team, your partner/s, and children, us, or anyone who’ll listen to you, even people who write ‘left’ like this. :)

[danyboy27]

And with sincere regards, you might want to look up the definition of, capitalist economic and political crisis, scandal, corruption, pollution, war, famine, torture, health care privatisation, housing shortage, education fees, food prices, wage cuts, intense ruling class infighting, insecurity, resentment, frustration, anger, protest, strikes, more strikes, demonstrations, theory! Listen carefully to what people are saying - and not saying!

Deliberately concentrate on what is happening in the world NOW, right now, and explain what you’ve learned and understand to your friends and people in your pub, café, church, sports team, your partner/s, and children, us, or anyone who’ll listen to you, even people who write ‘left’ like this. :)

My point was, its still debatable to call the soviet union a socialist regime.
Not that i mean that leninist are not socialist, on the contrary, i think they are, their creation on the other hand, i am not so sure.

For a society to be socialist, you need the workers to be in a relative control of the mean of production, something the USSR lacked.

Then again, it dosnt necessarly mean that the USSR wasnt a revolutionary leftist entity, after all they where able to raise the standard of living of their peoples continually.

[Threetune]

My point was, its still debatable to call the soviet union a socialist regime.
Not that i mean that leninist are not socialist, on the contrary, i think they are, their creation on the other hand, i am not so sure.

For a society to be socialist, you need the workers to be in a relative control of the mean of production, something the USSR lacked.

Then again, it dosnt necessarly mean that the USSR wasnt a revolutionary leftist entity, after all they where able to raise the standard of living of their peoples continually.

OK, if that’s what you understand tell it to the woman at the bus stop or the bloke in the refectory, as long as you don’t encourage them to think that we can get socialism by “solving the economic crisis” only. Or that it’s even possible to “beat the cuts”, “stop the war” or “solve the economic crisis” as some are saying.

[Hit The North]

OK, if that’s what you understand tell it to the woman at the bus stop or the bloke in the refectory, as long as you don’t encourage them to think that we can get socialism by “solving the economic crisis” only. Or that it’s even possible to “beat the cuts”, “stop the war” or “solving the economic crisis” as some are saying.

The problem is that if you don't think mass action can "beat the cuts", "stop the war" or defend us against the bourgeoisie's attempt to make us pay for their economic crisis, then you sow defeatism and pessimism that workers have the power to change the things directly bearing down upon them, and then, in the next breath, expect them to have confidence in their ability to change the world. That's a contradiction.

Meanwhile, I'm not sure of any group who are arguing that organising against any of these issues will lead, in themselves, to socialism.

[Rainsborough]

you might want to look up the definition of the word socialist.

I don't have to, I know what the word means.
You might like to look up the words 'reform' and 'revolution' and note the difference.

[danyboy27]

I don't have to, I know what the word means.
You might like to look up the words 'reform' and 'revolution' and note the difference.

Reform is only a bad word when the goal of the reform is to bring back class system and capitalism or supporting the current capitalistic system.

I really dont know what it have to do with the current discussion.

[danyboy27]

OK, if that’s what you understand tell it to the woman at the bus stop or the bloke in the refectory, as long as you don’t encourage them to think that we can get socialism by “solving the economic crisis” only. Or that it’s even possible to “beat the cuts”, “stop the war” or “solve the economic crisis” as some are saying.

of course we cant get socialism by resolving the economic crisis, the opposite on the other hand...

[Threetune]

The problem is that if you don't think mass action can "beat the cuts", "stop the war" or defend us against the bourgeoisie's attempt to make us pay for their economic crisis, then you sow defeatism and pessimism that workers have the power to change the things directly bearing down upon them, and then, in the next breath, expect them to have confidence in their ability to change the world. That's a contradiction.

Meanwhile, I'm not sure of any group who are arguing that organising against any of these issues will lead, in themselves, to socialism.

It is a contradiction that can’t be overcome by only addressing one side of it so to speak, i.e. the mass action activist ‘spontaneous’ economist side so beloved of the left (and increasingly right) union leaders who’s objectives aren’t the seizure of power from capitalism. Who’s objectives are to keep the struggle within the bounds and limitations of capitalist parliamentary democracy which is the very same power that is inflicting the cuts and prosecuting the wars.


There is not going to be any shortage of workers agitating for a “fight back” of one sort or another and no shortage of workers ready to answer the call for a “fight back”, and no communist is going should be saying don’t “fight back”, just the opposite, but what’s the point if we are not saying that it is the corrupt capitalist parliamentary racket itself that is helping the banks to rob workers and it is that which is in the way of “wining the fight back”.


Which brings us to the point. Can we win the “fight back” without attacking parliamentary democracy? Answer: Only if the economic conditions of capitalism can permit further reforms and concessions to the working class. It would be a brave or foolish agitator who would stand up and say that capitalism is ready to give such concessions and reforms now, without being laughed off the platform.

But these rather abstract debates would be improved simply by addressed the concrete questions in each case and ARGUING it through in front of workers. We are not fools to be patronised. It is this fear of revolutionary ARGUMENT, that is (ok then discussion) helping to hold up all round cadre development for fear of being unpopular.

Comrades, we are not going to be instantly ‘popular’ but then lacking confidence in our own revolutionary understanding, limping along behind the union officials and the spontaneous “fight back” workers is defiantly going to make everyone unpopular as inevitable predictable sell out shit hits the fan.

[Threetune]

Oscar Wilde (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscar_Wilde) wrote from personal experience.
“In old days men had the rack. Now they have the press. That is an improvement certainly. But still it is very bad, and wrong, and demoralizing. Somebody — was it Burke? — called journalism the fourth estate. That was true at the time no doubt. But at the present moment it is the only estate. It has eaten up the other three. The Lords Temporal say nothing, the Lords Spiritual have nothing to say, and the House of Commons has nothing to say and says it. We are dominated by Journalism.”

Well it might be a case of last in first out when it comes to the press in Britain now. The latest ‘revelations’ that News International (and other) ‘news’ agents and the police have been freely hacking the phones, bank accounts and medical records of all the ‘great and good’ of the British realm for decades including Prime Ministers, Holm Secretaries, Royalty, I’ve not heard about the judges yet.

In the opening up of press reporting of the House of Commons in 1787 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Commons_of_Great_Britain)Edmond Burke said “there were three estates in parliament; but, in the reporters' gallery yonder, there sat a Fourth Estate more important far than they all”. Now it looks as if the press intimidation of MPs, paid out of advertising revenues from big capital has hit the skids in a big way, maybe breaking an important historical control over ‘elected members’ of the institutionally corrupt parliament?

This is only the beginning of the end for this stupid useless venal and violent capitalist dictatorship.

[Threetune]

of course we cant get socialism by resolving the economic crisis, the opposite on the other hand...

come on, spit it out,

[Tim Finnegan]

So, Lenin wasn't a socialist then? And the USSR was never socialist? Thanks for clearing that one up then. :rolleyes:
For the first, what does one individuals ideology have to do with anything? I thought that we were materialists? :confused:
Secondly, no, I already observed as much. Pay attention.

[agnixie]

For the first, what does one individuals ideology have to do with anything? I thought that we were materialists? :confused:
Secondly, no, I already observed as much. Pay attention.

I would be generous and sort of acknowledge the period between 1919 and 1923. Sort of. With big caveats. ;)

[Coach Trotsky]

Threetune, I agree with what you've argued thus far. But there is one thing about mass action against the cuts, against war, etc, that I'm afraid isn't being brought through in this discussion well enough.

See, liberals and union bureacurats and their left-posturing running dogs will pay some lip service to these struggles, and in some cases they even initiate their own events around these struggles "from above". Ah, they must be "progressive", they must actually care because they're "doing something", and listen to the Rightwingers talking heads whining and screaming about it...you will hear this sort of interpretation passed around 'the Left'.

But look deeper, and you see why the liberals and union bureaucrats ans their left-posturing Popular Front buddies are doing these things. What is the actual purpose of their 'mass action' events? What are they telling the people involved in these events to do?

This is what their basic message sums up as [warning/disclaimer: I'm now going to do my no-holes-barred impression of the liberal-Leftists.]:

1. Rely on the Popular Front liberal-Left leaderships for everything. Don't try to go stirring up "trouble" on your own, little people. You don't know how to do it right, you'll only get yourselves in trouble, and the press will make mice meat out of you and it will embarrass all the "progressives" and could possibly jeopardize any good work being done in legitimate political channels.

2. We need to vote for the most "electable" representatives of that Popular Front leadership in elections, or else the "worse evil' will win the elections.
In fact, if you really care, you need to join the campaigns of Popular Front candidates, donate money to them, and try to get others to vote for them (no matter what you have to say to people to get them to do it).

3. Anybody who politically criticizes and challenges any of the liberal-Left Popular Front leaders or tries to incite "radical" action and demand "radical" solutions obviously must be agents provocateur working for the Rightwingers and the bosses, most especially to "scare away" potential supporters and to cost them elections. And that of course would mean more cuts, more unemployment/underemployment, more homelessness, more war, more racism, more sexism, more anti-immigrant bigotry, more crazy religious yahoos trying to instigate holy wars, etc, etc. Besides, the liberal-Left leaders are the only ones doing anything useful and meaningful for the workers and poor and underprivileged in the real-world.

4. During election cycles, we have to go all out especially to mobilize the oppressed to come out to vote for the "lesser evil" offered by the liberal-Left Popular Front. We have to support sellout liberal minority group bureaucrats and their politicians. The way to get these oppressed minorities groups to come out to vote in large numbers is to do vulgar baiting and husting. For example, tell Blacks that we'd better vote Obama, or there will be a terrible backlash against them by all those millions of racist whites in America; Obama's loss is even more their loss. Or tell gays that if we don't support Obama, not only will the Republicans get rid of gay marriage, but they will an intense cultural jihad against homosexuality and "diversity' generally.
And tell Jews that the Republicans are secretly Klansmen and Nazis who are just waiting for their chance to shove them into concentration camps if they win the next election, so they'd better vote Obama too. Hustle, bait, spread hate and fear in order to get the vote because getting votes is how you win this game. Forget about accuracy... perception is what really matters, and that perception must be enough to motivate them to vote for the liberal-Left Popular Front candidates. Besides, it's either we do this stuff, or we could try to explain economics and only end up putting our audience to sleep.

5. Outside of election cycles, when most of the masses have little interest in any active involvement with "legitimate politics", it's time to "keep up momentum" by being the bourgeois liberal's "political correctness" enforcers.
We have to keep the Right-wing's traditional support base on the defensive and demoralized, and we have to keep minority groups from sliding into the Right-wing's camp through being co-opted or seduced into illusions that they can be included into the 'middle class' if they only play the game right with the Republicans. So it's time to hold lots of liberal events complaining about "white privilege", "patriarchy", "racism/sexism/homophobia/xenophobia", etc. Create the impression that huge segments of the population are inherently joined together in a common 'oppressor nation', and thus are inherently antagonistic to the interests of specially oppressed peoples. Whites are bad, men are bad, straights are bad, etc. But we're liberal-lefties here, so the only way they can kinda sorta make upon for their inherent inalienable in-born oppressive assholery is to vote for Popular Front liberal politicians, to donate/volunteer for liberal group causes, to give lots of lip service about how they are ashamed of people like them, to try to adopt a personal lifestyle that clearly indicates how "progressive" and "diverse" and "internationalist" and "tolerant" they are (in starkest distinction from other inherent in-born privileged oppressors, and in the worst stereotypical mimicry of the oppressed...because that's the 'new cool', because MTV and other trendy progressives say so), and NEVER EVER to suggest the slightest hint of criticism or rejection of any kind against anyone of a specially oppressed background. Any hesitation or backsliding means that we must chew the heads off of the offenders. It is crucial that we liberal-lefts do this in between election cycles, in order to keep up momentum and in order to keep minority groups in our liberal-Left political house, and in order to terrorize potential right-wing voters and hopefully get some of them in trouble.

6.Besides, the liberal-Left is more fun and could help YOU take your uppity "more enlightened than thou "elitist self up the socioeconomic ladder of this society! You could even use this to jump-start a career as a paid professional liberal-Left bureaucrat, lawyer, media pundit, professor or university administrator somewhere when you get graduate college! Oh, and Hollywood loves you overdramatic outrage-feigning I'm-soooo-extremely-progressive/diverse/"special" MTV-wannabes...so vive la difference, the more overtly shockingly "alternative" you are the better, come be our next trendy 'it' mass market commodity so we can exploit your strangeness, er, I mean, your "special" uniqueness to the fullest, and provide yet another safe diversion for all those who think they are avant garde and the millions more who wannabe (they can try to be their way into 'cool' with our must-have and must-see and must-wear products). Anyone who doesn't buy in to the most current Hollywood-promoted mass-marketed trends du jour are obviously both losers and rightwingers. Lifestylism is Leftstylism. At any trendy progressive mass events, we should do our best to make our outrageously state of the art trendy selves the focus of attention, and try to turn the whole thing into a big carnival event eschewing all seriousness.
[Liberal-Left impression ends here]

So, the problem isn't really about mass action. The problem is who is initiating these events, and for what purpose. The problem is that most of what is commonly refered to as "Left" (mainly the liberal-Left) are just reactionaries of a different flavor, competing within this system with the Rightwingers for a bigger piece of the action in capitalist society. One way or another, most of the "Left" is BOUGHT AND PAID FOR by this system. The one who pays gets to decide the tunes being played, and what isn't to be played.

Thus, I think we need to raise a big middle finger to the whole political superstructural establishment and all their running dogs in capitalist society.
We'll get nothing good from these 'politicos'. All of THEIR options are co-opted, compromised, bribed in one way or another, and dependent upon the system in order to keep the liberal-Left leaderships on the system's gravy train and considered "respectable" inside the well-off to superrich "good side of town" more exclusive enclaves (it is this mostly class-based apartheid which I believe constitute the actual basis for considering the well-off bourgeoisified minority and their functionaries as separate nations...these are the real "oppressor nations" inside the imperialist power centers, and OMG lots of liberal-Leftists are part of these "oppressor nations", while OMG most whites and most males and most straight people are not! Things that make you go "hmm"!)

So, what we need is a revolutionary Left that has fully broken away from the Popular Frontist liberal-Left, that builds itself and relies on itself, that initiates its own independent mass militant action for the purpose of mobilizing and organizing the workers, oppressed and youth to FIGHT THIS SYSTEM, that forges our own independent mass organs of workers power as advanced developments of our struggle, and then that leads to the resolution of the "dual power" crisis by overthrowing and expropriating the bourgeoisie through the revolutionary conquest of all power in society by the proletariat and oppressed. If we do go into mass actions initiated by the fake-Left, it is to expose and destroy their misleaderships and phony system-serving panaceas, and to take as many of masses at the events as we can AWAY WITH US, to turn them on to the road of using their own independent mass action as a means to FIGHT THIS SYSTEM and to get them to totally turn their backs on politics-as-usual. We need to preach and teach the independent collective mass militant self-emancipation of the working class and the oppressed.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Coach Trotsky, what on earth are you trying to do with that above post, aside from incite sectarian divides?

This 'liberal-left' that you speak of doesn't really exist. We are divided between those who are non-revolutionary - the Labour Party, the Union bureaucrats, Greens and other assorted Social Democrats - and revolutionaries - Trotskyists, Leninists, Left Communists, Anarchists and other ideological allsorts.

If you're not willing to be democratic and work alongside revolutionaries who you don't wholly agree with on various questions, then you shouldn't be a part of our movement, because it's quite clear that the group of Leninists who are most sectarian in this country have achieved absolutely nothing thus far.

[Rainsborough]

Coach Trotsky, what on earth are you trying to do with that above post, aside from incite sectarian divides?

This 'liberal-left' that you speak of doesn't really exist. We are divided between those who are non-revolutionary - the Labour Party, the Union bureaucrats, Greens and other assorted Social Democrats - and revolutionaries - Trotskyists, Leninists, Left Communists, Anarchists and other ideological allsorts.

If you're not willing to be democratic and work alongside revolutionaries who you don't wholly agree with on various questions, then you shouldn't be a part of our movement, because it's quite clear that the group of Leninists who are most sectarian in this country have achieved absolutely nothing thus far.

Popular Front, anyone? And what exactly has 'this coalition of the left' achieved?

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Please find ANY post of mine where I have ever advocated a popular front, or a coalition of the left.

As i've stated numerous times, i'm not a United Front-ist. I was more referring to the sectarian nature of the left with regards to direct action and the education of the working class.

Clearly, Trotskyism and Marxism-Leninism are politically irreconcilable, due to historical mis-adventure. That doesn't mean that they have to undermine each other.

Look at the CPGB-ML, their manifesto states their opposition to Trotskyism as well as Capitalism and the bourgeoisie. That, to me, is a catastrophic example of unnecessary sectarianism.

We all have our own ideological creed, but it would clearly be better if we worked with each other, as we are all working towards Socialism here.

By spending your time attacking other left-ideologies, you are wasting your time, our time and showing yourselves to be hopelessly out of touch with the working class. You are achieving nothing.

[Hit The North]

It is a contradiction that can’t be overcome by only addressing one side of it so to speak, i.e. the mass action activist ‘spontaneous’ economist side so beloved of the left (and increasingly right) union leaders who’s objectives aren’t the seizure of power from capitalism. Who’s objectives are to keep the struggle within the bounds and limitations of capitalist parliamentary democracy which is the very same power that is inflicting the cuts and prosecuting the wars.

There is not going to be any shortage of workers agitating for a “fight back” of one sort or another and no shortage of workers ready to answer the call for a “fight back”, and no communist is going should be saying don’t “fight back”, just the opposite, but what’s the point if we are not saying that it is the corrupt capitalist parliamentary racket itself that is helping the banks to rob workers and it is that which is in the way of “wining the fight back”.


Which brings us to the point. Can we win the “fight back” without attacking parliamentary democracy? Answer: Only if the economic conditions of capitalism can permit further reforms and concessions to the working class. It would be a brave or foolish agitator who would stand up and say that capitalism is ready to give such concessions and reforms now, without being laughed off the platform.

But these rather abstract debates would be improved simply by addressed the concrete questions in each case and ARGUING it through in front of workers. We are not fools to be patronised. It is this fear of revolutionary ARGUMENT, that is (ok then discussion) helping to hold up all round cadre development for fear of being unpopular.

Comrades, we are not going to be instantly ‘popular’ but then lacking confidence in our own revolutionary understanding, limping along behind the union officials and the spontaneous “fight back” workers is defiantly going to make everyone unpopular as inevitable predictable sell out shit hits the fan.

You seem to excel at two things:

(A) teaching your granny to suck eggs, and
(B) constructing straw men.

Regarding the first, who, who considers herself a revolutionary, is not arguing that the political institutions of capitalism are in cahoots with capital itself? Who, who considers himself a revolutionary, is not warning workers against the manoeuvrings and sell-out of the trade union bureaucracy? Who, who considers themselves revolutionary, is not arguing that the mass activity of the rank and file, acting independently, is the only way of pushing the movement forward? Who, who call themselves revolutionaries is not arguing that the vanguard of the workers needs to be organised politically? Who, who considers themselves revolutionary, is arguing that capitalism is ready to give up concessions as an act of generosity?

There maybe particular organisations who argue what you claim they argue, and you should expose them, but it does you no credit to assume the posture that you and your tendency/organisation is alone in recognising the importance of these things you write about. They are the ABC of revolutionary engagement with working class struggles.

Regarding the second (your talent for constructing and demolishing straw men), a full analysis of the various socialist/communist organisations and their analysis of the capitalist crisis and the workers response would be more instructive than quoting brief headlines as you do in a previous post (inaccurately, when it comes to the Socialist Worker link:rolleyes:).

You are fully within your rights to criticise the tactics being put forward by other organisations, but what is your alternative? So far, you've offered nothing except abstract talk about "revolutionary preparations" - as if talking about the revolution will magic it out of thin air.

[Threetune]

You seem to excel at two things:

(A) teaching your granny to suck eggs, and
(B) constructing straw men.
You have my unreserved apologies for giving that impression it definitely was not my intention. Sorry. I’ll get back to the meet of your post later if you don’t mind. Just into something else right now. Thanks.

[Threetune]

Coach Trotsky, what on earth are you trying to do with that above post, aside from incite sectarian divides?

This 'liberal-left' that you speak of doesn't really exist. We are divided between those who are non-revolutionary - the Labour Party, the Union bureaucrats, Greens and other assorted Social Democrats - and revolutionaries - Trotskyists, Leninists, Left Communists, Anarchists and other ideological allsorts.

If you're not willing to be democratic and work alongside revolutionaries who you don't wholly agree with on various questions, then you shouldn't be a part of our movement, because it's quite clear that the group of Leninists who are most sectarian in this country have achieved absolutely nothing thus far.

You say: “Coach Trotsky, what on earth are you trying to do with that above post, aside from incite sectarian divides?”
“Clearly, Trotskyism and Marxism-Leninism are politically irreconcilable, due to historical mis-adventure.” ???

Clearly you are wrong!

Why do you always deal with FORM and not CONTENT? CT is not a sectarian. He and I, just for example only, take political inspiration from different ‘traditions’ that would have many of the contributors to the forum and the ‘left’ in Britain especially, stabbing each other to death if they met.

What unites us, at least for now, on this issue, is our revolutionary CLASS POSITION, which by the way has little to do with what our respective parents did or what we do for a living….. But just to nail this crap… and at least attempt to stave off any future silly contributions on this, my old man was a grave digger and I am a semi-literate “un-skilled” van driver (while the work lasts) and I don’t give a flying fart if CT is Trotsyist, who was funded through Harvard by stockbroker parents and is now a classy lawyer.

We are trying to talk about revolutionary P O L I T I C S !!! The real world as it’s happening not a set of wooden abstraction. Please give it a go, will you.

[Threetune]

There maybe particular organisations who argue what you claim they argue, and you should expose them, but it does you no credit to assume the posture that you and your tendency/organisation is alone in recognising the importance of these things you write about. They are the ABC of revolutionary engagement with working class struggles.

Regarding the second (your talent for constructing and demolishing straw men), a full analysis of the various socialist/communist organisations and their analysis of the capitalist crisis and the workers response would be more instructive than quoting brief headlines as you do in a previous post (inaccurately, when it comes to the Socialist Worker link:rolleyes:).

You are fully within your rights to criticise the tactics being put forward by other organisations, but what is your alternative? So far, you've offered nothing except abstract talk about "revolutionary preparations" - as if talking about the revolution will magic it out of thin air.

Yes, but so few are reciting that ‘ABC’ as it is often conveniently referred to before being quietly buried.
I just checked again and you are partly right only, in that I pasted the wrong link. This is the one I meant to post within the page in the same issue of the paper - by Viv Smith that says “And next time we can hit them even harder.”http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=25303 (http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=25303)

My point stands, none of it is revolutionary and it is CONSIOUSLY not revolutionary, that’s my point mate.

I am trying to deal with the revolutionary events as they are happening and the contemporary 'left' respons to them, not endlessly drag up old stuff.
You might agree that there is a marked inability or refusal to try this around here.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

You say: “Coach Trotsky, what on earth are you trying to do with that above post, aside from incite sectarian divides?”
“Clearly, Trotskyism and Marxism-Leninism are politically irreconcilable, due to historical mis-adventure.” ???

Clearly you are wrong!

Why do you always deal with FORM and not CONTENT? CT is not a sectarian. He and I, just for example only, take political inspiration from different ‘traditions’ that would have many of the contributors to the forum and the ‘left’ in Britain especially, stabbing each other to death if they met.

What unites us, at least for now, on this issue, is our revolutionary CLASS POSITION, which by the way has little to do with what our respective parents did or what we do for a living….. But just to nail this crap… and at least attempt to stave off any future silly contributions on this, my old man was a grave digger and I am a semi-literate “un-skilled” van driver (while the work lasts) and I don’t give a flying fart if CT is Trotsyist, who was funded through Harvard by stockbroker parents and is now a classy lawyer.

We are trying to talk about revolutionary P O L I T I C S !!! The real world as it’s happening not a set of wooden abstraction. Please give it a go, will you.

Brilliant. You've spent a lot of time constructing words and sentences that in reality amount to nothing.

This is a politics forum. Clearly, I have enough brain cells to realise that we are trying to talk about revolutionary politics.

If you could stay on topic and answer my points, rather than going off on some rant about how you are the only one in a politics forum who is talking about politics, then that'd be much appreciated.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Also, re: me 'clearly being wrong' about Trotskyism and Marxism-Leninism being politically irreconcilable, please enlighten me on that.

I'm well aware of the historical political similarities between Trotsky and Marxist-Leninists. Programmatically there was not all that much difference between Trotsky and the Leninists on most questions. The point is that Stalin had Trotsky killed and the 70 years in between have shown that Trotskyists and M-Ls simply cannot work together, politically speaking. I challenge you to provide me with any evidence to suggest otherwise.

[Threetune]

In the latest revelations, senior Metropolitan police officers are being grilled by members of the bent parliament,… or should that be, bent members of parliament? Chairman of the Holm Affairs Committee, Leicester MP Keith Vas was recently up to his eyeballs in financial scandal over his expenses, hiding from his own electorate and refusing to give his local paper an interview.

You couldn’t make it up, if there was any justice they’d all be in jail, but are instead clubing together to shift all the blame outside parliament and on to the police and Murdock. It is going to be fascinating how the ‘left’ press handles this story this coming weekend. You’re right about all that lifestyle stuff. I recon the Obama family are the pinnacle of ‘black nationalist’ ‘feminist’ trendiness attempting to mask the essentially fascist reality of system.

And you’re absolutely right; the ‘left’ exists precisely to put the brakes on the growing revolutionary understanding by tying workers (in Britain) to the parliamentary racket, posturing as ‘militants’ and ‘activists’ for the workers. The ‘left’ groups behind the left union leaders undoubtedly have a small constituency of workers and college students who are encouraged into all kinds of ‘activism’, many of who genuinely believe they are some kind of revolutionaries. And some are. The majority of such though are well catered for and tolerated, even at times given celebrity status, within the establishment just as in all ‘democratic’ capitalist states.

The opportunism of these layers is legendry, always with an eye for the main chance, especially drawn to the electoral system which they avoid too much criticism of, in the hope one day of “representing” the workers/minorities etc. Which is why my OP here is agitating for the strongest attack on the parliamentary racket itself and which is instinctively pounced on by the ‘left’ with the traditional cries of “sectarian”, “exclusivist”, and there are many more adjective like it, all calculated in the end only to divert attention away from any effective attacks on the crisis ridden corrupt racket itself. Once they have earned their spurs as activists they demand payment from the working class in votes so they can take up theor rightful place in the system.

But the economic crisis is spoiling this fraudulent game and exposing the racket for what it is – a pile of shite. So the ‘lefts’ have to pretend “the crisis is not as bad as the “catastrophists” are saying” and “we can ‘win back’ some reforms” and “Stop the Cuts!” etc. They want to separate the economist fight for conditions from the political fight for power.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

You've answered my points well, sir.

By the left press, who do you mean?

[Threetune]

You've answered my points well, sir.

By the left press, who do you mean?

This could be tedious, sorry.

OK then, here’s the “topic” of the OP Corrupt British establishment (http://www.revleft.com/vb/corrupt-british-establishment-t157605/index.html)
“The corrupt British establishment is ripping itself to bits again as the strains of managing the economic crisis burst out into dangerous scandals over phone tapping, corrupt cops, advertising boycotts, bent TV contracts and much more. All their attempts to pull together in this “crisis” are falling apart. Great lessons for workers about “freedom and democracy” crap will prepare the way for more revolutionary “fight backs” against “we’re all in it together” big society cuts.
Leninist revolutionary theory will be vital to lead the way against 'left' reformist pacifist and nationalist sellout shite.”

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk)

Have you got that? Four lines about, guess what? That’s right, ‘The corrupt British establishment’ and one line about Leninism fighting reformist pacifist and nationalist sell-outs.. That’s it, that’s what all this is about and I ought to know because I wrote it.


Now, which one of your ten scintillating contributions relates to the substance of the “topic”? Guess what? Precisely none! Nothing! A big fat Zero! (see below) And you talk about being off topic, like this = “If you could stay on topic and answer my points, rather than going off on some rant about how you are the only one in a politics forum who is talking about politics, then that'd be much appreciated.”

It would be appreciated if you would actually get on “topic”, you’ve never been on it. I’m not stating an opinion here it’s a fact (see below) and if you don’t acknowledge that fact there is nothing more to say to you.


Not one of your contributions, until the very last one when you finally ask a relevant question relating in some way to the fifth line of the “topic”. Hooray! A sensible question that merits an answer at last. If you intend to keep engaging, critically or not, no one minds, sharp criticism really is invited and welcome, but please cut out the time wasting diversions so we can concentrate on examining events and political tendencies as they develop, in the ‘here and now’ so that we can sharpen our revolutionary class analysis of the gargantuan economic crisis and its impact on the reactionary ‘democratic’ parliamentary racket.


As to your question: “By the left press, who do you mean? “ I had in mind what my contribution here #25 (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2167162&postcount=25) indicated clearly.
The “snippets” I selected were obviously no more than that, “snippets” from some of the ‘bigger’ groups. I even asked the question – “Can anyone else find anything revolutionary elsewhere?” So, any ‘left’ popular press that you can find that advocates, discusses or engages workers with revolutionary understanding as the only “solution” to the economic and political crisis of degenerate capitalism instead of “…'left' reformist pacifist and nationalist sellout shite.” , would be a revelation to me and I’d be checking em out as people worth joining in with, whoever they were, before you could say sectarian.....again.

El Gramar in this thread said
1) “Please someone ban this vile troll.“
2) “Banning a flaming troll =/= enthusiastically supporting the murder of hundreds of thousands of people, but yeah whatever.
If you look at the Revleft entry on the 'trolling' page in Encyclopaedia Dramatica, you will find that Threetune darling is using all the correct trolling tactics.”
3) “If you were a struggling worker instead of some rich kid stuck behind his computer posting nonsense, you'd probably want to solve the economic crisis as well.
It's quite clear that you're:
a) a troll OR
b) your aim is to advance your own ideology's political power-grab agenda rather than accept that sometimes you have to compromise for the good of the working class.
After all, if you're not in Socialism to help empower the working class and improve their material lot, then you shouldn't be here. “
4) “I was referring to intra-left conciliation and compromise.”
5) “Socialists.”
6) “I wasn't talking about united front tactics.
It is possible to hold a conciliatory attitude to other tendencies on the left, especially with regards to co-operation in mass action events and education events such as Marxism Festival (SWP), without becoming one mass party or a united front or whatever.”
7) “Coach Trotsky, what on earth are you trying to do with that above post, aside from incite sectarian divides?
This 'liberal-left' that you speak of doesn't really exist. We are divided between those who are non-revolutionary - the Labour Party, the Union bureaucrats, Greens and other assorted Social Democrats - and revolutionaries - Trotskyists, Leninists, Left Communists, Anarchists and other ideological allsorts.
If you're not willing to be democratic and work alongside revolutionaries who you don't wholly agree with on various questions, then you shouldn't be a part of our movement, because it's quite clear that the group of Leninists who are most sectarian in this country have achieved absolutely nothing thus far. “
8) “Please find ANY post of mine where I have ever advocated a popular front, or a coalition of the left.
As i've stated numerous times, i'm not a United Front-ist. I was more referring to the sectarian nature of the left with regards to direct action and the education of the working class.
Clearly, Trotskyism and Marxism-Leninism are politically irreconcilable, due to historical mis-adventure. That doesn't mean that they have to undermine each other.
Look at the CPGB-ML, their manifesto states their opposition to Trotskyism as well as Capitalism and the bourgeoisie. That, to me, is a catastrophic example of unnecessary sectarianism.
We all have our own ideological creed, but it would clearly be better if we worked with each other, as we are all working towards Socialism here.
By spending your time attacking other left-ideologies, you are wasting your time, our time and showing yourselves to be hopelessly out of touch with the working class. You are achieving nothing. “
9) “Brilliant. You've spent a lot of time constructing words and sentences that in reality amount to nothing.
This is a politics forum. Clearly, I have enough brain cells to realise that we are trying to talk about revolutionary politics.
If you could stay on topic and answer my points, rather than going off on some rant about how you are the only one in a politics forum who is talking about politics, then that'd be much appreciated.”
10)” Also, re: me 'clearly being wrong' about Trotskyism and Marxism-Leninism being politically irreconcilable, please enlighten me on that.
I'm well aware of the historical political similarities between Trotsky and Marxist-Leninists. Programmatically there was not all that much difference between Trotsky and the Leninists on most questions. The point is that Stalin had Trotsky killed and the 70 years in between have shown that Trotskyists and M-Ls simply cannot work together, politically speaking. I challenge you to provide me with any evidence to suggest otherwise.”
10) “You've answered my points well, sir.
By the left press, who do you mean?”

[Threetune]

You've answered my points well, sir.

By the left press, who do you mean?

While the British parliament attempts to grow a scab of ‘conciliation’ over its recent wounds, fresh pustules of "parasitic" behaviour erupt in the US.

“Slowly but surely the phone-hacking scandal is crossing the Atlantic - as members of Congress demand action on two fronts. First, there's a call for the FBI to investigate whether journalists broke wiretap laws by targeting the phones of Americans.
It follows a report that the News of the World approached a New York police officer and attempted to buy the phone records of people who died on 9/11. One congressman from New York said British reporters appeared to have engaged in "parasitic" behaviour.
The other call is for the Department of Justice and stock- market regulators to investigate reported payments to British police officers. Potentially, that could expose News International's parent company, News Corporation, to charges under US anti-corruption laws. With political pressure coming from Democrats and Republicans, a Justice Department spokeswoman said their requests for an investigation were "being reviewed." Steve Kingstone BBC News, Washington.

“Just because you’re paranoid doesn’t mean that they’re not spying on you” runs the old joke, but if only one thing has been learned from the coverage of this ‘hacking’ scandals epidemic, it is that in the ‘democratic’ liberal west, ‘big brother’ really is watching you and your kids and your bank account and your medical records, and he’s not a communist as the reactionary Orwell fantasised, he’s a capitalist “free press” agent, relentlessly poisoning every brain, with lurid anti-communist propaganda of every description morning noon and night. Any notion that ‘the individual’ citizen (‘consumer) has personal choice within ‘our’ system because of some claimed access to free information and the rule of law, is being shot to pieces now as the mammoth crisis presses down on all economic social and political formations of capitalism.

“We must make sure that the mess is cleaned up so that the public trusts us again” insists the British parliament, all of them, including the ‘left’ MPs like Dian Abbot, the preferred candidate for Labour leadership of the trendy ‘Communist Party of Great Britain’ who are again completely mired in the foul reformist conspiracy against the working class and its organisations.

However imperfect, at times crud, inadequately schooled, and ill-prepared it might be, the Marxist-Leninist theoretical tradition of exposing the fake ‘lefts’ will have to be taken up again, sharpened and carried to the forefront of working class revolutionary struggle. This has nothing to do with “sectarianism” as alleged, which is both the opportunist practice of self-serving bureaucrats at every level and the convenient catchphrase for dumping-down inevitable and necessary theoretical questioning in the working class as revolutionary crisis develops.

Shrill squeals of “sectarian” “elitist” “exclusivist” can be heard whenever the pseudo radical antics of the “left” are challenged, as over this near state implosion around the NoW debacle. Defenders of the SWP and SP, rather than openly develop their own repressed POLITICAL criticisms of the muted editorials, are incited into genuinely sectarian defensiveness on the pretext that they are “doing the ‘real’ practical work”, supposedly stiffening the resolve of the masses before the next “big push” in order to” “hit them even harder” to“beat the cuts”and“solve the economic crisis” by “Voting against the cuts” which could “transform society” and be “a real alternative” by “Using all the legal powers available to councils, to set a budget that meets the needs of the local community and demands that the government makes up the shortfall.”

What responsible gentle folk the ‘lefts’ are, using the legal powers of the capitalist state, the same state that is now busily “making sure that the (parliamentary) mess is cleaned up so that the public trusts us again”, not warning the workers that it is the parliamentary ‘democracy’ “vote against the cuts” racket itself that has to be smashed before “a real alternative” of “transforming society” can happen. “we’ll tell em later” is just lying class treachery plain and simple.

It is irrelevant which factions of fake ‘Maoists,’ ‘Leninists’ ‘Trotskyists’ or ‘Stalinists’ are bumping out this stuff, it is demonstrably deadly reformist rubbish that need addressing by the members of these factions, and it needs doing now. We can’t beat capitalism by keeping quiet about reformism in the working class. Confronting its ‘left’ advocates and their apologists, whoever they are, is central to Leninist revolutionary practice.

[redmarxist90]

From the news today Murdoch has backed out of the complete take over of BskyB. Also yesterdays PMQ saw the tories holing at what was said by miliband and brown.

[Threetune]

From the news today Murdoch has backed out of the complete take over of BskyB. Also yesterdays PMQ saw the tories holing at what was said by miliband and brown.


Yes mate, a lot of huffing and puffing, wind and piss, but they know that they well have to try and pull together whatever. I think the extent to which they do that or not, will tell us alot of things about the real depth of the political crisis of capitalism generally, and things about the balance of power between the classes.


This is a dangerous time for them with their middle class constituents being driven down into the working class and getting more frustrated at the lack of “recovery” in the economy, and the parliament has still not rammed through anywhere near its full quota of cuts properly yet.

They are desperate to get that confidence back which is why we should be bending every nerve and sinew in our revolutionary attacks on them and any union bosses and ‘left’ party leaders who will not condemn the entire parliamentary electoral racket should be exposed with them.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

When has there ever been a middle class?

They were always working class or petty bourgeoisie, depending upon their relationships with the MoP.

That's the great myth of western Capitalism. Though it indeed has presented the majority of it's populations with improved standards of living, especially relative to the less developed countries, it is a myth that it has presented anything more than a small minority of its populations with improved power relationships with regards to political and economic control. This oft-desired 'middle class' is a false, western Capitalist construct designed to alleviate the obvious fact that most of the people who fall into this faux-class are workers and have little or no political and economic democratic input.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Yes mate, a lot of huffing and puffing, wind and piss, but they know that they well have to try and pull together whatever. I think the extent to which they do that or not, will tell us alot of things about the real depth of the political crisis of capitalism generally, and things about the balance of power between the classes.


This is a dangerous time for them with their middle class constituents being driven down into the working class and getting more frustrated at the lack of “recovery” in the economy, and the parliament has still not rammed through anywhere near its full quota of cuts properly yet.

They are desperate to get that confidence back which is why we should be bending every nerve and sinew in our revolutionary attacks on them and any union bosses and ‘left’ party leaders who will not condemn the entire parliamentary electoral racket should be exposed with them.

I agree on union bosses. They have shown, in the majority (perhaps Crow and Serwotka aside), that they are Capitalists through and through and are as distant from their memberships as the New Labour leadership is from ordinary people.

The only problem is that the Unions are the last remaining bastion of the organised working class. The left is a shambles in this country, whichever tendency you look at. The Unions, despite being weakened, bureaucratic, un-ambitious and numerically in decline, are the last vestige where one can find millions of organised workers.

If revolutionary Socialists were to declare, in the midst of a recession, the Unions as enemies of Socialism, or even the Union leaders, it could be seen that we are hopelessly out of touch with the day-to-day struggles currently facing workers.
Though I sympathise with the hopeless leadership of the Union leaders and the TUC, we cannot risk alienating the Union grassroots. We should really be organising within Unions to engage a more radical, Syndicalist line, so that at least the Unions will be pulling their Socialist weight, so to speak. And we should be encouraging them to dis-associate from the Labour Party. Only then will they even have the potential to be revolutionary vehicles.

[Threetune]

I agree on union bosses. They have shown, in the majority (perhaps Crow and Serwotka aside), that they are Capitalists through and through and are as distant from their memberships as the New Labour leadership is from ordinary people.

The only problem is that the Unions are the last remaining bastion of the organised working class. The left is a shambles in this country, whichever tendency you look at. The Unions, despite being weakened, bureaucratic, un-ambitious and numerically in decline, are the last vestige where one can find millions of organised workers.

If revolutionary Socialists were to declare, in the midst of a recession, the Unions as enemies of Socialism, or even the Union leaders, it could be seen that we are hopelessly out of touch with the day-to-day struggles currently facing workers.
Though I sympathise with the hopeless leadership of the Union leaders and the TUC, we cannot risk alienating the Union grassroots. We should really be organising within Unions to engage a more radical, Syndicalist line, so that at least the Unions will be pulling their Socialist weight, so to speak. And we should be encouraging them to dis-associate from the Labour Party. Only then will they even have the potential to be revolutionary vehicles.

Is this ‘declaration’ “the Unions as enemies of Socialism,” something you’ve been discussing in your circles? Why is it on your agenda? Who raised the notion and why? Surly it’s exactly the “day-to-day struggles” currently facing the working class and not only some ‘organised’ sections of the working class that revolutionary Marxism-Leninism has been developed to overcome.

In Britain at the moment it is the capitalist coalition government that compels workers to “live day-to-day” in pursuit of the means of existence against the economic ‘crisis’ policies of Cameron and Clegg etc. Their ‘austerity’ attacks are on all “grass root” workers who are being “alienated” from the capitalist’s economic, social and political agenda and “radicalised” by those attacks.

Why on earth would you want to develop a program for the working class based on either “Unions as enemies of Socialism” or alternately “organising within Unions to engage a more radical, Syndicalist line,”

It seems that both are equally sectarian in their different ways. While tactics can be endlessly variable the communist perspectives are the taking of power, the destruction of rotten parliamentary democracy racket by workers dictatorship followed by the long period of socialist development towards a stateless communist future. That is the ‘declaration’ that will “alienate” capitalists not workers.

[Rainsborough]

Originally Posted by El_Granma http://www.revleft.com/vb/revleft/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showthread.php?p=2173576#post2173576)
We should really be organising within Unions to engage a more radical, Syndicalist line, so that at least the Unions will be pulling their Socialist weight, so to speak. And we should be encouraging them to dis-associate from the Labour Party.And how long would you like for that task, after all it's not as if we have been waiting on the unions for that long.


Only then will they even have the potential to be revolutionary vehicles. Keep talking, who knows in another hundred years the might start to listen. After all the organising and taliking to encourage the unions to dis-associate from the Labour Party they will have only reached a level to have "the potential to be revolutionary vehicles", only the 'potential'. There will, I presume, still be quite a bit of talking before the actually become "revolutionary vehicles".

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Is this ‘declaration’ “the Unions as enemies of Socialism,” something you’ve been discussing in your circles? Why is it on your agenda? Who raised the notion and why? Surly it’s exactly the “day-to-day struggles” currently facing the working class and not only some ‘organised’ sections of the working class that revolutionary Marxism-Leninism has been developed to overcome.

In Britain at the moment it is the capitalist coalition government that compels workers to “live day-to-day” in pursuit of the means of existence against the economic ‘crisis’ policies of Cameron and Clegg etc. Their ‘austerity’ attacks are on all “grass root” workers who are being “alienated” from the capitalist’s economic, social and political agenda and “radicalised” by those attacks.

Why on earth would you want to develop a program for the working class based on either “Unions as enemies of Socialism” or alternately “organising within Unions to engage a more radical, Syndicalist line,”

It seems that both are equally sectarian in their different ways. While tactics can be endlessly variable the communist perspectives are the taking of power, the destruction of rotten parliamentary democracy racket by workers dictatorship followed by the long period of socialist development towards a stateless communist future. That is the ‘declaration’ that will “alienate” capitalists not workers.

Firstly, i'm not a Marxist-Leninist, so i'll not really be able to relate to, nor agree with, your point on that.

I was talking about the Union bureaucracy. There is a clear difference between the Union heads and their grassroots membership.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

And how long would you like for that task, after all it's not as if we have been waiting on the unions for that long.

Keep talking, who knows in another hundred years the might start to listen. After all the organising and taliking to encourage the unions to dis-associate from the Labour Party they will have only reached a level to have "the potential to be revolutionary vehicles", only the 'potential'. There will, I presume, still be quite a bit of talking before the actually become "revolutionary vehicles".

Brilliant, you keep shouting on the sidelines about how revolution can be achieved tomorrow if only we all followed YOUR way.

Anybody with even a basic understanding of the quite pecular British social, political and economic history will see that revolution is not going to happen tomorrow.
Thus, instead of berating any possibilist tactics, we should all, no matter what our tendency, be working together to raise the consciousness of the entire working class, of which the unionised workers are an important group. Without them, you'll probably never reach the critical mass of support needed for revolution.

[Rainsborough]

Brilliant, you keep shouting on the sidelines about how revolution can be achieved tomorrow if only we all followed YOUR way.

Anybody with even a basic understanding of the quite pecular British social, political and economic history will see that revolution is not going to happen tomorrow.
Thus, instead of berating any possibilist tactics, we should all, no matter what our tendency, be working together to raise the consciousness of the entire working class, of which the unionised workers are an important group. Without them, you'll probably never reach the critical mass of support needed for revolution.

And how do you propose to do that, by more talk and promises of reform?

Marx (you remember Marx?) described the unions, from which the Labour Paty was later formed, as "nothing more than the tail of the Great Liberal Party, i.e., of its oppressors, the capitalists" If he was still around do you think he would see any difference?

[Threetune]

Brilliant, you keep shouting on the sidelines about how revolution can be achieved tomorrow if only we all followed YOUR way.

Anybody with even a basic understanding of the quite pecular British social, political and economic history will see that revolution is not going to happen tomorrow.
Thus, instead of berating any possibilist tactics, we should all, no matter what our tendency, be working together to raise the consciousness of the entire working class, of which the unionised workers are an important group. Without them, you'll probably never reach the critical mass of support needed for revolution.

The resignation of Rebekah Brooks from the News International is another sharp blow to the confidence of the ruling class government circles in Britain sending shock waves from the phone taping “scandal” rolling out disrupting formally cosy partnerships.

The façade of diligent prudent industrious respectability working “democratically” for the good of all is being shattered exposing interlocking gangs of cynical self serving racketeers at the top of a bankrupt state looking for a way to attack workers more effectively and or rustle-up more nationalist warmongering militarism as a way out “solution” to its near terminal crisis.


Workers can’t help but see all this and begin to draw conclusions about the suitability of these people and their system to manage, let alone solve the problems of human survival and development.

What do you have to say about any of these “day-to-day” development and understandings? Other than shouting on the sidelines about how revolution can only be achieved in the far distant future. Did you forget the day-to-day - today!

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

And how do you propose to do that, by more talk and promises of reform?

Marx (you remember Marx?) described the unions, from which the Labour Paty was later formed, as "nothing more than the tail of the Great Liberal Party, i.e., of its oppressors, the capitalists" If he was still around do you think he would see any difference?

I'm not a reformist, so i'll ignore that petty, inaccurate insult.

Well, if Marx said it, it must be right.:rolleyes:
To say that the Unions are the tail of the old Liberal Party isn't quite correct. They were most certainly nothing to do with the majority of the liberal party, and were in part responsible for the very existence of a movement for organised labour in our country.

But anyway, that is history. As I have said, i'm well aware that the Union bureaucracy and leadership is anti-revolutionary and not on our side. What i'm saying is, that an attack on Unions as organisations could alienate the millions of Union members, which would reduce us to puppets shouting on the sidelines. We need to ignore the Union leaders and go straight into targeting organised workers, as well as non-union affiliated workers.

I don't see what's so controversial about that, really.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

The resignation of Rebekah Brooks from the News International is another sharp blow to the confidence of the ruling class government circles in Britain sending shock waves from the phone taping “scandal” rolling out disrupting formally cosy partnerships.

The façade of diligent prudent industrious respectability working “democratically” for the good of all is being shattered exposing interlocking gangs of cynical self serving racketeers at the top of a bankrupt state looking for a way to attack workers more effectively and or rustle-up more nationalist warmongering militarism as a way out “solution” to its near terminal crisis.


Workers can’t help but see all this and begin to draw conclusions about the suitability of these people and their system to manage, let alone solve the problems of human survival and development.

What do you have to say about any of these “day-to-day” development and understandings? Other than shouting on the sidelines about how revolution can only be achieved in the far distant future. Did you forget the day-to-day - today!

It's quite clear that a significant majority of the working class in this country are not as politically conscious as you and I. That you and I can draw such detailed, Socialistic conclusions from the NoTW crisis does not mean that the working class, as a group, are necessarily doing the same at this time.

I haven't anywhere said that revolution can only be achieved in the far distant future, i'm merely saying that it's quite obvious that it isn't imminent in this country, and thus it is in fact damaging to build up the hopes of comrades and setting them (us) up for failure. We have to be realistic about the situation in this country, so that we can set realistic goals and in turn provide a realistic strategy and tactics to apply to said strategy.

[Rainsborough]

I'm not a reformist, so i'll ignore that petty, inaccurate insult.

Well, if Marx said it, it must be right.:rolleyes:
To say that the Unions are the tail of the old Liberal Party isn't quite correct. They were most certainly nothing to do with the majority of the liberal party, and were in part responsible for the very existence of a movement for organised labour in our country.

But anyway, that is history. As I have said, i'm well aware that the Union bureaucracy and leadership is anti-revolutionary and not on our side. What i'm saying is, that an attack on Unions as organisations could alienate the millions of Union members, which would reduce us to puppets shouting on the sidelines. We need to ignore the Union leaders and go straight into targeting organised workers, as well as non-union affiliated workers.

I don't see what's so controversial about that, really.

For almost 40 years I've been hearing 'reformists' who claim they aren't 'reformists' singing the same song. The grass root union member hasn't heard it yet, how many more times must we hear it?

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Brilliant. Despite me being an avowed Marxist, you feel qualified to call me a reformist, based on a couple of posts in a thread, out of over 1,000 posts i've made as an anonymous user on an internet forum, and nothing else. Well done.

I'm not a syndicalist nor a Trade Unionist. But the fact is that we have to win over the union grass roots away from the Union bureaucracy and away from the Labour Party.

It is easier to organise an already organised section of the working class, than ignoring them and starting from scratch.

Unless you believe you can take power and claim that you are acting as a vanguard on their behalf, of course.:rolleyes:

[Threetune]

It's quite clear that a significant majority of the working class in this country are not as politically conscious as you and I. That you and I can draw such detailed, Socialistic conclusions from the NoTW crisis does not mean that the working class, as a group, are necessarily doing the same at this time.

I haven't anywhere said that revolution can only be achieved in the far distant future, i'm merely saying that it's quite obvious that it isn't imminent in this country, and thus it is in fact damaging to build up the hopes of comrades and setting them (us) up for failure. We have to be realistic about the situation in this country, so that we can set realistic goals and in turn provide a realistic strategy and tactics to apply to said strategy.

Why on earth will you not just talk about the economic crisis and the ruling class and government corruption and there difficulties. That’s all, just talk about that and we’ll worry about consciousness another day. Forget what you think is your separate consciousness. (self consciousness) talk about the world developments as you see them unfolding, the real material world. Please. That would be of immense assistance to developing a more all round understanding for the working class and every one of us without exception.

Edit: But do it consciously.:rolleyes:

[Tim Finnegan]

And how do you propose to do that, by more talk and promises of reform?

Marx (you remember Marx?) described the unions, from which the Labour Paty was later formed, as "nothing more than the tail of the Great Liberal Party, i.e., of its oppressors, the capitalists" If he was still around do you think he would see any difference?
Marx was only in a position to discuss the craft unions, though, which were markedly different from the far larger, frequently far more militant unions of unskilled and semi-skilled workers, most of which only emerged in a big way in the years after his death. I don't think it's reasonable to take his comments on one particular sort of labour association and apply it to a far broader category in such a manner.

[Invader Zim]

The corrupt British establishment is ripping itself to bits again as the stains of managing the economic crisis burst out into dangerous scandals over phone tapping, corrupt cops, advertising boycotts, bent TV contracts and much more.

If you think the pressures of dealing with the economic crisis has anything to do with the scandal that News International, etc, have embroyelled themselves in then you plainly don't actually understand either.

[Threetune]

If you think the pressures of dealing with the economic crisis has anything to do with the scandal that News International, etc, have embroyelled themselves in then you plainly don't actually understand either.

Oh really, do tell.

[Invader Zim]

Oh really, do tell.

Well for a start the scandal at News International Papers is based on practises from years before the financial crisis was even on the radar, and fall out from it, including jailings of a private investigator and journalist who had hacked the phones of members of the royal family, also predated the fall of the housing market. The reason why it has become news again over the past couple of weeks is because other journalists at other papers discovered concrete evidence that the practises went a lot further and subsequently made it public knowledge.

Get a fucking clue, and don't post until then.

[Threetune]

Well for a start the scandal at News International Papers is based on practises from years before the financial crisis was even on the radar, and fall out from it, including jailings of a private investigator and journalist who had hacked the phones of members of the royal family, also predated the fall of the housing market. The reason why it has become news again over the past couple of weeks is because other journalists at other papers discovered concrete evidence that the practises went a lot further and subsequently made it public knowledge.

Get a fucking clue, and don't post until then.

Would you like to tell us what other developments currently in play originated “before the financial crisis” and are now not related to it? Do you really think that the crisis has really ever been off the" radar” as you put it? Do you think the crisis is a separate distinct phenomenon unconnected to other social and political events

[Invader Zim]

Would you like to tell us what other developments currently in play originated “before the financial crisis” and are now not related to it? Do you really think that the crisis has really ever been off the" radar” as you put it? Do you think the crisis is a separate distinct phenomenon unconnected to other social and political events


Would you like to tell us what other developments currently in play originated “before the financial crisis” and are now not related to it?

The phone hacking scandal is the issue here.


Do you really think that the crisis has really ever been off the" radar” as you put it?

What you think that the crash in the housing market and subsequent massive recession in 2008, was common knowledge and widely predicted in 2001?


Do you think the crisis is a separate distinct phenomenon unconnected to other social and political events

it has nothing to do with the phone hacking scandal. Dumbass.

[Threetune]

Well for a start the scandal at News International Papers is based on practises from years before the financial crisis was even on the radar, and fall out from it, including jailings of a private investigator and journalist who had hacked the phones of members of the royal family, also predated the fall of the housing market. The reason why it has become news again over the past couple of weeks is because other journalists at other papers discovered concrete evidence that the practises went a lot further and subsequently made it public knowledge.

Get a fucking clue, and don't post until then.

Does it have anything to do with bribing the police and intimidating celebrities and politicians for example which also predated the “fall of the housing market” as most current social and political realities obviously do?

You appear to be attempting to isolate the “scandal at News International Papers” from everything else. Is that what you are doing?

[Invader Zim]

Does it have anything to do with bribing the police and intimidating celebrities and politicians for example which also predated the “fall of the housing market” as most current social and political realities obviously do?

You appear to be attempting to isolate the “scandal at News International Papers” from everything else. Is that what you are doing?

Because they have nothing to do with the finanical crisis and only a moron would suggest otherwise, so I guess we have you labelled.

[Threetune]

Because they have nothing to do with the finanical crisis and only a moron would suggest otherwise, so I guess we have you labelled.

You appear to be confusing the “financial crisis” with “the fall of the housing market” which you should know was only a symptom of the general crisis of ‘overproduction’, particularly the over production of ‘capital’ itself, which you say was not “on the radar” before “the fall of the housing market” in 2007-8.

That’s why you think the giant Murdoch propaganda machine and corrupt Metropolitan police, both charged with fighting the “war on terror”, and controlling the rising “anti-cuts” resistance movements, “have nothing to do with the finanical crisis”.

What on earth do you think is driving the ‘war on terror’ and the ‘austerity measures’, in every single imperialist centre on earth if isn’t the “financial crisis”? Are you seriously trying to tell us that the ‘City of London’ stockbrokers and international bankers are not leaning on the British government establishment to “clean up its act” or risk a complete exposure of the undemocratic workings of the parliamentary racket? The same bankers who are at the centre of all government ‘quantitative easing austerity’ policy which is the main life and death agenda item of the British capitalist class.

If bribing the police and intimidating celebrities and politicians “have nothing to do with the finanical crisis” as you say, do you really think the British government and parliament can push through its anti-working class ‘austerity’ plans without an effective and loyal press and police force? Your avin a laugh.

[Threetune]

Ladbrokes has tightened the price on Cameron's being the next cabinet member to quit the government from 100/1 ten days ago to 12/1 now. Stan James offers 7/1 against Cameron not lasting the year.


Of the frontrunners to replace Cameron, David Davis represents "outstanding value" at 33/1, and Smithson has put some money down. Boris Johnson is top of the heap at 4/1, despite his not being an MP. Paul's own tip to replace Cameron would be William Hague, whose reputation and image as a statesman have steadily and markedly improved since he was last Tory leader.

Back in the Commons, two Labour MPs have now said that David Cameron should resign. Sir Gerald Kaufman said Cameron should "consider his position". And Dennis Skinner said "dodgy Dave" should "do the decent thing and resign".


MPs Kaufman and Skinner are playing out the parliamentary charade to give Labour some ‘left’ credibility but they all know that there job is to prop-up the parliamentary rotten racket first and foremost.

And its this whole gang that has been entrusted by the ruling class to drive through the “austerity” measures. It’s not the Olympic Games they need the top Met Commissioners to police, it’s the workers reaction to the cuts program resulting from the ever deepening economic crisis. It’s the disastrous crisis that really governs everything now.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

You appear to be confusing the “financial crisis” with “the fall of the housing market” which you should know was only a symptom of the general crisis of ‘overproduction’, particularly the over production of ‘capital’ itself, which you say was not “on the radar” before “the fall of the housing market” in 2007-8.]

Sorry?

The fall of the housing market was not merely a 'symptom of the general crisis of overproduction'. The fall of the housing market, in the US, is what led to the financial crises around the world.

Prime and sub-prime loans had default figures of 20+% on them, far more in the sub-prime category. When these defaults happened and it was realised that there'd be more, and that the banks had been packaging these mortgages and selling them as securities between themselves at ever increasing, artificially high prices, the banks faced a liquidity crisis because they had to write off an inordinate amount of these mortgage-backed securities - the so-called 'collateralised debt obligations'.

YOU seem to be confusing the liquidity crisis that faced the banked (the financial crisis) with the current economic crisis that has developed as a result of the financial crisis and the actions taken by governments to prop up the financial system.

[Threetune]

The entire world financial system, especially the US, has been generating increasingly worthless ‘capital’ since the end of WWII. That surplus capital had to be invested somewhere, even in “highly speculative” ventures like lending to poor people for housing who eventually were unable to repay.


That’s not a course, that’s a symptom. Agreed it then boomeranged the world money markets leading to the specific form of the crisis that is till causing chaos but the
real cause, is the ‘overproduction’ of everything especially capital itself.

Edit: Each enterprise is in competition and has to invest its capital profitably in order to survive. The millions of trillions washing round the markets are more than can be invested profitably without further screwing the working class and the world’s poor generally AND/OR destroying others surpluses in war along with their capacity for generating capital.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Well, no, it was a cause.

Of course, you're right to an extent, the various housing bubbles beyond their intrinsic value is, essentially, worthless capital, but overall, Capitalist economies in the run up to the financial crash were not suffering from excess inflation nor a massive increase in worthless capital created during the boom.

Indeed, your point (about worthless capital) is something that comes straight out of Hayek's Fatal Conceit.

I have a feeling that, in the long run, you may be right, but for me the main cause of this was the 'loan shark' behaviour of the banks, and a secondary cause was the way that banks interact economically with the rest of the economy. The worthless mal-investments made on the stock market should never be mistaken for real, creatable capital. In that respect you're right, but don't underestimate the difference between a sensible loans policy and a policy of making loans to people who cannot afford to make the repayments.

[Threetune]

My sick leave is now over now. Nice talking to you all.
Do try reading some Lenin if you can.
Cheers.