Plato's The Republic and mixed government discussion

[Die Neue Zeit]

How would you evaluate Plato's identification of six forms of government in political philosophy: government by the many ("democracy"), by the best ("aristocracy"), by the few ("oligarchy"), by the honoured or property-valued ("timocracy"), by one for society ("monarchy"), by one for himself ("tyranny")?

This identification was reiterated by Aristotle, Polybius, and Enlightenment political philosophers.

[CornetJoyce]

Monarchy, Oligarchy and Democracy are the alternatives Herodotus has the Persian leaders debate.
The power of a monarch, says Otanes, "leads to the delusion that he is more than a man" leading to "acts of savage and unnatural violence... he breaks up the structure of ancient tradition and law, forces women to serve his pleasure, and puts men to death without trial."
"Contrast this with the rule of the People: first, the very name is so beautiful - Isonomia (equal rights)- and, secondly, the People in power do none of the things monarchs do. Under the rule of the People, a magistrate is appointed by lot and is held accountable for his conduct in office, and all questions are put up for open debate. For these reasons, I propose that we do away with monarchy and raise the People to power."
The leaders voted overwhelmingly for monarchy of course.

[Jose Gracchus]

Why don't you just join the LaRouche movement already, where they love this Neoplatonist shit.

[Ilyich]

Why don't you just join the LaRouche movement already, where they love this Neoplatonist shit.

I do not think it is fair to say that a study of Plato's theories automatically qualifies one as a LaRouche neo-fascist. Plato was a great philosopher and scientist who influenced many people, including some socialists.

[JustMovement]

Oh perish the thought that Plato is discussed in the philosophy section! shame, shame, shame!!

[Ilyich]

I am unclear on why there is so much anti-Plato sentiment here.

[Rooster]

I am unclear on why there is so much anti-Plato sentiment here.

He ain't no materialist.

[L.A.P.]

He ain't no materialist.

That's probably because he lived in ancient times, just my best guess. Plato influenced all Western philosophy and materialism owes to his influence.

[Rooster]

That's probably because he lived in ancient times, just my best guess. Plato influenced all Western philosophy and materialism owes to his influence.

I don't think that's a great excuse seeing how Aristotle was one of his students. I also believe that the atomists and other materialists were around before and after Plato as well. My history of Greek philosophy is kinda sketchy though.

[RED DAVE]

How would you evaluate Plato's identification of six forms of government in political philosophy: government by the many ("democracy"), by the best ("aristocracy"), by the few ("oligarchy"), by the honoured or property-valued ("timocracy"), by one for society ("monarchy"), by one for himself ("tyranny")?

This identification was reiterated by Aristotle, Polybius, and Enlightenment political philosophers.How about for Marxists in the 21st Century, all of them are inadequate as they all presume a class-based government not based on the working class.

Plato was one of the great writers of history, and his work is well-worth reading to this day. He, or his teacher Socrates, was the founder of conservative idealism, a miserable philosophy which exists to this day.

Perhaps the best discussion of Plato and Socrates from a left-win point of view, and dealing explicitly with their politics as theory and action, is in I.F. Stone's wonderful, highly readable, The Trial of Socrates.

RED DAVE

[bricolage]

Plato influenced all Western philosophy
I don't think that's much of a commendation.

[ZeroNowhere]

I don't think that's much of a commendation.It is, though.

[bricolage]

The philosophers have only interpreted... yadda yadda yadda and so forth for eternity and ever. amen.

[Ilyich]

He ain't no materialist.

That still does not clarify why such hatred is being directed at Plato. Hegel was not a materialist either. A disagreement with some part of a philosopher's theory does not make necessary the hate shown toward Pluto.

[Luís Henrique]

I don't think that's much of a commendation.

At the very least... know thy enemy.

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

The philosophers have only interpreted... yadda yadda yadda and so forth for eternity and ever. amen.

Yes - the point is to change the world. Try to do it without understanding how the world actually works, though.

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

How about for Marxists in the 21st Century, all of them are inadequate as they all presume a class-based government not based on the working class.

This. Not only that, but also the ruling classes of Plato's time were by no means similar to the modern bourgeoisie, so he was talking about something quite different. You can't base a socialist movement, or even a decent analysis of modern capitalist societies on Plato. If you want to understand how the Greek polis were structured, however, you would need to read him. And other, not necessarily more "progressist" or materialist, authors.


Plato was one of the great writers of history, and his work is well-worth reading to this day. He, or his teacher Socrates, was the founder of conservative idealism, a miserable philosophy which exists to this day.Both also invented a method of discussion that is still usable, even by leftists.

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

I am unclear on why there is so much anti-Plato sentiment here.

Part of it must be accounted on the "throw everything that wasn't written by Marx, Wittgenstein or Lichtenstein into the bonfire" that has so much polluted this site.

Luís Henrique

[RED DAVE]

Both [Socrates and Plato] also invented a method of discussion [dialectics] that is still usable, even by leftists.This is true. One of the pleasures of reading Plato is the play of dialectic even though Socrates often employs in a fraudulent way.

Once again, let me recommend to anyone who wants to get some idea of what it's all about to read Izzy Stone's The Trial of Socrates.

And don't be intimidated by Plato. Jump right in if you're so inclined. You can start right out with The Republic (http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/republic.html).

RED DAVE

[Dumb]

How would you evaluate Plato's identification of six forms of government in political philosophy: government by the many ("democracy"), by the best ("aristocracy"), by the few ("oligarchy"), by the honoured or property-valued ("timocracy"), by one for society ("monarchy"), by one for himself ("tyranny")?

This identification was reiterated by Aristotle, Polybius, and Enlightenment political philosophers.

It's interesting that a philosopher would distinguish between "one for society" and "one for himself" - like one could have honest, genuine rule by one "for society."

[Die Neue Zeit]

How about for Marxists in the 21st Century, all of them are inadequate as they all presume a class-based government not based on the working class.

Lassalle's legacy, the pre-war SPD, and mass worker activism are cases among Plato's six forms of government that are contrary to your assertion.


It's interesting that a philosopher would distinguish between "one for society" and "one for himself" - like one could have honest, genuine rule by one "for society."

Benevolent Tyrant models don't work. "Monarchy" had to have been combined with "democracy" when the former was at its most effective.