Feminism

[thefinalmarch]

Basically, almost everyone I know is incredibly anti-feminist. My best friend (who is female herself) is currently in the middle of some sort of campaign against feminism, so it has recently come up as a topic of conversations and arguments. She's come up with a few dogmatic assertions devoid of any real argumentative value - namely that "feminists are themselves sexist"/"feminists want matriarchy", and "[institutionalized] sexism no longer exists"/"feminism is irrelevant" (e.g. aside from abortion rights and spousal/domestic abuse, what other causes do feminists "rally" around?). Despite her general idiocy, I consider it preferable to construct proper counter-arguments to the aforementioned two (preferably ones which I can quote/cite directly from a well-known feminist). Any help would be appreciated.

Also, what are some [communist] criticisms of the feminist movement today/feminism in general? A few come to mind, such as many feminists' view of all females as being equally repressed under patriarchy, their lack of understanding of class struggle, and the tactic employed by the more liberal "feminists" of increasing the number of females in management and government positions. Looking in to the writings of anarcha-feminists may be of help here, but I haven't got the time for any of that.

[Zanthorus]

Also, what are some [communist] criticisms of the feminist movement today/feminism in general?

Well, on the partriarchy thing, I'm not the biggest fan of her politics (or the SWP/IST in general) but Lindsey German had an interesting article (http://www.isj.org.uk/?id=240) dissecting patriarchy theory.

[Fopeos]

Women still earn almost 20% less, on average, doing the same jobs as men. The majority of women are still herded into caregiver rolls (teaching, nursing).
Women are still expected to look a certain way. The multi-billion dollar cosmetics, fashion, dietary suplements, and plastic surgery industries prey on their insecurities. The fact that many women have become wealthy in these industries doesn't make them less predatory.
Then there's the abortion issue. If a woman doesn't have the right to decide if and when she wants to become a mother, she has no equality. Access to safe and legal abortions has been vanishing county by county and state by state for the last 20 years. Legislation to protect the unborn in various crimes is just a back-door to eroding a woman's autonomy. It reduces her to a baby-vessel, a vehicle to carry a man's seed.
Politically-minded women should be joining feminist groups. The struggle is far from over and is in fact being lost due to bourgeois-liberal misleadership.
Hope some of this is helpful. Oh, and women don't have to hate men to be feminists. My long-time girlfriend is one.

[jake williams]

1) Feminism isn't a movement or an ideology. The term "feminism" refers to all sorts of movements and ideologies, many of which directly contradict each other and have totally opposite visions of better societies. Some of the more vulgar liberal ones even basically think ours is alright. There really are some out there who actually do hate men and want to create separate societies of women and so on, and frankly, they're not the worst, because they actually, among other things, view systemic sexism as a problem and are comfortable actually taking political positions against it, something not all "feminists" will. But most people who one would call feminists are not like that.

2) Systemic sexism clearly and demonstrably exists, albeit in a form more complex and diffuse than in Victorian England. There're different levels of it. I'm a bit embarrassed to even try to explain, actually. It's especially true in a global sense, with working class women in different countries acting as superexploited workforces for others. But one can clearly see in enlightened liberal countries too that a general atmosphere of casual misogyny is still a major cultural feature, aside from economic concerns which are still clear, reproductive/bodily autonomy, and so on. It's simply more acceptable to make categorical assertions about male vs. female brains and so on than it would, for example, be to make analogous claims about the differences between black and white brains, an excess of acceptability well in excess of any legitimate science. One can conceive that evolution had given us very intellectually different sexes, but thank god really, it hasn't, not much at all. But it's still largely acceptable to assert otherwise.

[thefinalmarch]

Well, on the partriarchy thing, I'm not the biggest fan of her politics (or the SWP/IST in general) but Lindsey German had an interesting article (http://www.isj.org.uk/?id=240) dissecting patriarchy theory.
Thanks, I'll read that later when I've got the time.

[Kuppo Shakur]

Nothing wrong with feminism, except when certain people start crying for Oprah and shit. I mean, why should I give a shit if some boogie lady is making 2/3 of millions of dollars???

That and vagina-envy, etc. But these are rare cases.

[Queercommie Girl]

That and vagina-envy, etc.


Explain. And how is it different from "penis-envy" or whatever?

[Coach Trotsky]

Women still earn almost 20% less, on average, doing the same jobs as men. The majority of women are still herded into caregiver rolls (teaching, nursing).
Women are still expected to look a certain way. The multi-billion dollar cosmetics, fashion, dietary suplements, and plastic surgery industries prey on their insecurities. The fact that many women have become wealthy in these industries doesn't make them less predatory.
Then there's the abortion issue. If a woman doesn't have the right to decide if and when she wants to become a mother, she has no equality. Access to safe and legal abortions has been vanishing county by county and state by state for the last 20 years. Legislation to protect the unborn in various crimes is just a back-door to eroding a woman's autonomy. It reduces her to a baby-vessel, a vehicle to carry a man's seed.
Politically-minded women should be joining feminist groups. The struggle is far from over and is in fact being lost due to bourgeois-liberal misleadership.
Hope some of this is helpful. Oh, and women don't have to hate men to be feminists. My long-time girlfriend is one.

Which "feminist" groups do you recommend then?
How can we win women to a revolutionary socialist perspective and the struggle for full women's liberation as part of the struggle for the liberation of ALL the workers and oppressed? How can we win women away from the bourgeois liberal "feminist" misleaderships? How can we break women away from the Democratic Party in the USA, and bourgeois liberal or phony Left sellout political parties elsewhere?

[Hit The North]

boogie lady

Wut? :glare:

[Queercommie Girl]

Wut? :glare:

He meant a woman who is from the capitalist class.

[Kuppo Shakur]

Explain. And how is it different from "penis-envy" or whatever?
Hard to. I've just heard certain academic "feminists" talk about it, going on about all men wishing they were their mothers or whatever. V:confused:V

[Coach Trotsky]

He meant a woman who is from the capitalist class.

Back in the 90s in the American Left, we used to say "booshie" sometimes.
As in "how are you gonna fall for these booshie ass Democrats' bullshit and vote for Clinton?"

[Kuppo Shakur]

Yah that's how it's pronounced. Like "bourgeois", but without the "wah"
S'how cool paple sait.:cool:

[Dumb]

Politically-minded women should be joining feminist groups. The struggle is far from over and is in fact being lost due to bourgeois-liberal misleadership.

Politically-minded people should be joining feminist groups. Not that women "need" us men to fight their battles for them, but rather we need for our own sake to be involved in the anti-sexist movement:

(A) To assert ourselves as anti-sexists, so we don't feel pressured to "go along" with sexist behavior;

(B) To ensure a balanced critique of gender construction, making sure people don't forget about issues like the "big, bad, tough guy" construct (for example); and

(C) We're all human together. If it's my sister's struggle, or my mother's struggle, or my best friend's struggle, it's mine as well.

The way I look at it, if (for example) we treat women as sex objects, what does that make us guys? Sex subjects? Like that's any better - I don't want any woman to be treated like a walking vagina, and I don't want to be some walking penis frothing at the mouth with lust 24/7. When I look at sexism that way, it seems quite clear to me that men have as much stake as women in women's liberation.

[Fopeos]

In response to Coach Trotsky's questions.
I think young women should be encouraged to join any feminist groups that may be active in their communities or on campuses as a way to becoming more politicized and aware that they are an exploited minority.
The best way to steer feminists, or anyone else, toward a class-conscious perspective, is through struggle. When they march or demonstrate, we have to march in solidarity with them. Some will be open to discussion. It helps to have some books on hand to add weight to your argument that capitalism is the origin and perpetuation of OUR opression. I've found that women are usually open to learning about the origin of their "second class" status. "The origin of the family, private property, and the state" by Engels is a good intro. Trotsky's "women and the family" is another good one.
We can only help awaken one individual at a time. We are in the midst of the deepest economic recession in decades so there is a growing interest in revolutionary politics. Young people who didn't grow up with cold war propaganda are more open to socialism. We, as communists, have to find and use every demonstration, rally, march, or picket line to get our views heard.
As for how to win women, or other politicized folks, away from the Democratic party or other sell-out left parties, I truly don't know. I don't want to offend any comrades on here but I support the Socialist Workers' Party. I highly recommend "the militant" newspaper. That being said, I'm not here to sell papers or recruit for a party.
I'm just looking for left solidarity. I want to share ideas and learn some new ones.

[Obs]

How many feminists does it take to change a light bulb?

12.

One to screw it in,
one to excoriate men for creating the need for illumination,
one to blame men for inventing such a faulty means of illumination,
one to suggest the whole "screwing" bit to be too "rape-like",
one to deconstruct the lightbulb itself as being phallic,
one to blame men for not changing the bulb,
one to blame men for trying to change the bulb instead of letting a woman do it,
one to blame men for creating a society that discourages women from changing light bulbs,
one to blame men for creating a society where women change too many light bulbs,
one to advocate that lightbulb changers should have wage parity with electricians,
one to alert the media that women are now "out-lightbulbing" men,
and one to just sit there taking pictures for her blog for photo-evidence that men are unnecessary.


Just a joke I heard yesterday

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA THAT'S FUCKING HILARIOUS

Prick.

[Kuppo Shakur]

Yeah and another thing about academic "feminists": Everything's a phallus.

Guns are phalluses, cars, trucks, motorcycles, all phalluses.
Screwdrivers, hammers, tape measures.
Pens, pencils, flashlights, knives.

CHALLENGE: Create tools that serve the same purposes as the ones listed above without them being phalluses.

[Ilyich]

One of the main conflicts between certain anti-capitalists and certain feminists is the these certain anti-capitalists see the patriarchy as a product of capitalism while these certain feminists see patriarchy and capitalism as two separate phenomena.

[freya4]

Feminism, as movement striving for equal rights and status between genders, is a largely positive phenomenon and should be incorporated to an extent into our own movement. Women around in the world, especially in developing countries, have not achieved equality and in some places are denied the right to an education, decent health care, a job, basic political rights etc. However, some feminists seem to imply that the main historical struggle is between men and women, and is based on gender rather than class. This is where feminism and socialism diverge. It must be realized that sexism, racism, homophobia and all other forms of discrimination have a common thread in capitalist and other class-based forms of oppression.

[Landsharks eat metal]

I think a lot of people who are anti-feminist have never even been aware of the facts. I used to buy in to the reactionary lies that our "fantastic" society had all but done away with sexism, and anyone who is still a feminist in this day and age is a female supremacist (and a man-hating lesbian). When I became a leftist, I saw just how wrong that was. Some people will probably not benefit from just being shown facts, because they're obviously just invented by the "liberal media" to push its "socialist agenda".

[Thirsty Crow]

Yeah and another thing about academic "feminists": Everything's a phallus.

Just one little correction: these academic feminists are most probably knee deep in psychoanalysis (especially Lacanian; though, this is my best guess since I haven't read much stuff along this line).

I don't support feminism as in a set of corrective practices and policies to be enacted within capitalist society. That is, I fully support women's struggle with regard to abortion rights and equal wage, as well as other measures which make working class women's lives better, but I don't take any interest whatsoever in "equality in the board meeting" (or whatever it's called, signifying practices aimed at correcting gender gap and gender pay differential in higher management levels, as well as in parliament) because of the class position which I understand as an irreducible basis of my politics. Also, I don't think that any kind of capitalist society can accomodate total eradication of structural sexism and inequality based on gender.

[CommieTroll]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA THAT'S FUCKING HILARIOUS

Prick.

Its only a joke, don't get that butthurt over it, a perfectly rational individual would know its only a simple joke like I stated when I posted

[Thirsty Crow]

Its only a joke, don't get that butthurt over it, a perfectly rational individual would know its only a simple joke like I stated when I posted
And there's a perfectly good reason why should someone post only a stupid joke in a thread in "Learning" section which aims at clearing stuff up with regard to feminism and sexism/gender based inequality in capitalist societies.
If I didn't know better I'd think that's trolling.

[CommieTroll]

And there's a perfectly good reason why should someone post only a stupid joke in a thread in "Learning" section which aims at clearing stuff up with regard to feminism and sexism/gender based inequality in capitalist societies.
If I didn't know better I'd think that's trolling.

I see your point, I'm sorry for any offence caused