Revolution?

[Hawker]

The name say's it all.Why don't we revolt.Sure we can plan rallies,protest,etc.,but to avail.The goverment will never listen to us,they'll never stop their crimes against humanity and other countries.We live in an Iron Fist Consumerist state,they don't give a damn about what the people say.Ther only way they'll listen is with an example.We need to revolt.For those who live in the state's rise up!Attack goverment buildings and burn them down,kill anyone who work's for the government like police.We have to fight,we have to fight for our freedom,not with words,but with arms!

[stonerboi]

Are you talking about Urban Guerrilla warfare, the type advocated by Carlos Marieghella?

Or a mass uprsising like Indonesia in 1998?

[Discontinuity]

Strange. Do you care to elaborate on your plan of revolution?

Assuming you're American...

Do you know how to obtain weaponry?

Do you have, at the very least, a dozen loyal supporters?

Legal contacts and safehouses?

Have you studied urban warfare and guerrilla strategy?

And, last but not least, do you have any idea what kind of bloodshed and misery a disorganized revolution would cause, if it lasted beyond the handful of youths that would start it?

Maybe I'm being a bit harsh, but I somehow don't think you've thought this through.

[shakermaker]

...he's just instigateing.
And if you start revolucian in USA, I'm sure that the goverment would be so grazy and use a nuclear-bomb in their own country to destroy you, of course if you become a notable threat.

[Discontinuity]

Naturally, although a nuke would be something of an overkill.

And besides, a nuke requires a concentration of forces in a (relatively) open area. A scattered revolutionary force in, say, sections of NYC would have to be seperately hunted down and eliminated.

Does anyone want to discuss serious revolutionary strategy, now that we're on the topic?

[Hawker]

Your right you guys.The time for revolution isn't ripe yet.We still need to spread the words of Revolution to the people.I suggest we go to public places like parks and preach our words.

[Discontinuity]

Well, thank god for that. I was worried you just ran off and started mowing down capitalists, Hawker. ;)

Obviously you don't live in Canada, much less the GTA, so no chance of us getting together... But where -do- you live? I have a few socialist contacts scattered around the world, maybe I could put you in touch.

Speaking of which... My proposed group. (http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=7&t=18129)

[Hawker]

I live in Renton,Wa just south of Seattle.Do you live in British Columbia because if you do maybe I could go visit you.

[Bradyman]

its way too soon to start a fight. The majority of the world has no idea about what communism and socialism really is. Frankly more people would side against any revolt if their government said it was in their "interest" especially after the whole 9/11 thing.

[Hawker]

Well lets go to public places and preach our words and build up a huge following.Sure they'll send cops to shut us up,but they can beat us and throw us in jail,but they'll never silence us.If they kill us then we will be known throughout the world as martyrs.

[Mazzen]

Man, I'd be all for that except: We don't have enough people, Spreading such a word in public and what not would be considered treason or conspiracy or some kinda shit like that in our country. You know what though? We have the right to bear arms. This right isn't so we can hunt or any shit like that. Its original purpose was so that if the gov't got to where the people didn't like it anymore and they became corrupt, i.e.-Bush regime, we could start a civilian militia to create an uprising. Such an act t'day would be called treason and you'd be thrown in federal prison for god knows how long. Fuck that.

[FistFullOfSteel]

haha its easy to get guns in america..just buy on M16 for some dollars.

[shakermaker]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2003, 04:07 PM
A scattered revolutionary force in, say, sections of NYC would have to be seperately hunted down and eliminated.
have to start it from country, but it would be quite hopeless to get help from a farmer in texas. they rather shoot you.
well I think it is impossible to make succesful revolution in USA.

[Discontinuity]

Who says it has to start in the country?

Just because, historically, that's how other revolutions might have played out.... I don't see a North American revolution being successful with a 'peasant' base. There's no Sierra Maestra to run to. A competent, disciplined group based in an urban area would be able to use that environment as effectively, if not more effectively, than typical guerrillas in the mountains or jungle.

Granted, I don't see a North American revolution being successful at all, simply because of the nature of the fight and the fighters. The over-eager ones would get beaten to death by riot squads, and the cowardly ones would... well... run off and call the riot squads.

[shakermaker]

guerrilla warfare in urban area, like in NYC, well, how you can make an attack and then quickly move away in such area like that when there is so much witnessis. that kind of war needs very highly-planned plans and maximum security. unless you are going to make suicide-attacks.
and besides training area what you need for your troops, where to get that?
anyway
hey I know, let's go to iraq fight against american soldiers!

[Hawker]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2003, 12:27 PM
guerrilla warfare in urban area, like in NYC, well, how you can make an attack and then quickly move away in such area like that when there is so much witnessis. that kind of war needs very highly-planned plans and maximum security. unless you are going to make suicide-attacks.
and besides training area what you need for your troops, where to get that?
anyway
hey I know, let's go to iraq fight against american soldiers!
Che explains how to fight in cities in his book

http://www.bellum.nu/wp/ecg/ecggwchpt1.html

[shakermaker]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2003, 02:38 AM
Che explains how to fight in cities in his book
well, what Che wrote is written about 40 years ago, so it's quite old stuff.
but, don't get me wrong, I appreciate Che and (almost) everything what he did.

by the way, nice pages.

[Discontinuity]

Guerrilla warfare, no. Urban warfare, yes.

It's quite possible to wage war within a city and win, although it would be very costly (what war isn't). If done properly, however, a city can be quite excellent for tactical value.

For example:

Instead of moving from dense forest/jungle (cover) to attack locations on the... plains, let's say, for your typical rural guerrilla, you would have to adapt your tactics to an urban setting.

If given a small group of people, make the most of them by establishing several different routes to and from a given target. Dispersal of a small group would make it virtually impossible to counter-attack.

You can't win with a small group, you say? Not in a head-to-head battle, of course, but that's not really what we're looking for. Che's journal of the Sierra Maestra campaign indicate his belief (most likely taken from Sun Tzu's writings and his own experience) that the essential elements necessary to win are a sizeable defensive force, and however large of an offensive force can be managed to continously harass the enemy. The trick is not to put too many forces into defense, as there is a point where it makes no sense to continue defending an area instead of fleeing to fight another day. For the offensive group, this can be very small or very large (although, when very large it should be divided to pursue several targets), but it is important for it to be constantly active. Give the enemy no rest, and the enemy will -feel- defeated. Basic strategy.

So, back to an urban campaign. If given a large force in a city, there's no need to use it, initially, as a large force. Divide it up, perform several different missions (varying what revolutionaries are used in which mission) with the double intent of demoralizing and weakening the opposing force (NOT just all of the police/military) and of improving the morale and conditions of the civilian population. The large force is still useful, as it allows you to maintain and defend safehouses throughout the city... it requires exceptional organization to avoid linking the cells too closely (in case one is seized), but it is still possible. Then, when it becomes necessary to engage in more open actions, a large pool of revolutionaries is available.

Now that I've responded to your points, I would like to end this discussion. As interesting as it is, I don't particularly want to get arrested for my involvement in creating a feasible urban revolutionary campaign, even if only in a hypothetical situation. :rolleyes: