Its not you, its me

[The Teacher]

I apologize to (almost) everyone here if my presence has been disturbing or unproductive. I began lurking and posting on this site because I was hoping that it would be a good place to learn. "Revolutionary Left" sounds good after all and I thought that my own political opinions would line up more or less with the general idealogy here. As always, I'm the guy who's too left to be a Democrat and too moderate to be a leftist. This turned out to be as true on the internet as it was in real life. And just like in real life, I am being chastized by the ultra-left for not towing "the party line."

Some of the discussions that I've taken part in have been generally enlightening and helpful. I've gotten some good book recommendations off of this site (a bunch of not so good ones too) and a good sense of the various factional rifts within the left.

I'm sure that if you narrowed it down enough there would be a specific tendency within the spectrum that included my belief in unlimited freedom of expression, refusal to initiate violence, and desire to use all of the tools at our disposal to combat the oppression of the state and the ruling class. However, dividing the left into sub groups of people with like minded beleifs is counter productive. The better plan (IMO) would be for people to forget their disagreements and focus on working together on specific goals. Alas, that doesn't seem likely in the near term.

Again, I never intended to come here and be a disruptive influence. I suppose some of it can be chalked up to my naturally abrassive personality, the lack of manners that seems to be encouraged in internet discussion, and my own professed ignorance of the jargon, terminology, and literature. It would be an excuse if I were to blame my disruptive behavior on the actions of others and I will not do so.

As an aside, just food for thought, if a working class person with left leaning views and a burning hatred of the right wing comes to this site and is turned off by it, what does that say for the future of any movement that you hope to build? I know the internet isn't real life but I am your "core market" to use a capitalist term. If I can't be part of your revolution then who can?

[ZeroNowhere]

As an aside, just food for thought, if a working class person with left leaning views and a burning hatred of the right wing comes to this site and is turned off by it, what does that say for the future of any movement that you hope to build?Technically speaking, not all of us intend to 'build movements'.


And just like in real life, I am being chastized by the ultra-left for not towing "the party line." Yes, particularly the Party line which holds that the non-political board is for non-political discussion and the learning board is for learning. Just saying, though, but it's pretty amusing to hear the term 'ultra-left' being associated with 'the Party line', given that many 'ultra-leftists' probably wouldn't have a Party in the first place.

[The Teacher]

I again apologize for not knowing the proper terms. I was not restricted for posting in the wrong forums. I was restricted because my beliefs do not fit the mod's critera of "revolutionary leftist" that is the exact message I was given.

I'm not saying that I am a revolutionary leftist, but that was the given reason for my restriction.

BTW, if you aren't trying to build a movement then how does your revolution go forward. I apologize for not understanding.

[Franz Fanonipants]

for someone who allegedly attended antioch yr rhetoric needs work

[The Teacher]

for someone who allegedly attended antioch yr rhetoric needs work

Allegedly?

What part of my rhetoric needs work? Do you have any suggestions?

[Kadir Ateş]

Honestly, forget the "Marxists" and the "anarchists" and go back to the works of Marx and Engels. A lot of frustration I've had with the left is precisely their ignorance of their works, coupled with my (at times) own misunderstanding. It's why I'm hesitant to self-apply the term "leftist" to myself, because of its ambiguous and vast meaning, which often becomes lumped in with certain elements to which I'm strongly opposed.

[Broletariat]

I second the above whole heartedly, it was not until I started reading Capital that I really started understanding things.

[Post-Something]

I apologize to (almost) everyone here if my presence has been disturbing or unproductive. I began lurking and posting on this site because I was hoping that it would be a good place to learn. "Revolutionary Left" sounds good after all and I thought that my own political opinions would line up more or less with the general idealogy here. As always, I'm the guy who's too left to be a Democrat and too moderate to be a leftist. This turned out to be as true on the internet as it was in real life. And just like in real life, I am being chastized by the ultra-left for not towing "the party line."

Some of the discussions that I've taken part in have been generally enlightening and helpful. I've gotten some good book recommendations off of this site (a bunch of not so good ones too) and a good sense of the various factional rifts within the left.

I'm sure that if you narrowed it down enough there would be a specific tendency within the spectrum that included my belief in unlimited freedom of expression, refusal to initiate violence, and desire to use all of the tools at our disposal to combat the oppression of the state and the ruling class. However, dividing the left into sub groups of people with like minded beleifs is counter productive. The better plan (IMO) would be for people to forget their disagreements and focus on working together on specific goals. Alas, that doesn't seem likely in the near term.

Again, I never intended to come here and be a disruptive influence. I suppose some of it can be chalked up to my naturally abrassive personality, the lack of manners that seems to be encouraged in internet discussion, and my own professed ignorance of the jargon, terminology, and literature. It would be an excuse if I were to blame my disruptive behavior on the actions of others and I will not do so.

As an aside, just food for thought, if a working class person with left leaning views and a burning hatred of the right wing comes to this site and is turned off by it, what does that say for the future of any movement that you hope to build? I know the internet isn't real life but I am your "core market" to use a capitalist term. If I can't be part of your revolution then who can?

You sound like a leftist to me to be honest. It doesn't really matter if you want to remain part of this online community or not, and I think you're really exaggerating the differences between these sub groups. In reality they usually work together very well and although there has been a lot of fragmentation in the past few years it's not really as trivial as people simply disagreeing with each other and joining other groups. So just keep with the basics like freedom, equality and democracy and try to understand all the major world events as they happen and you'll know the right thing to do when it comes I guess.

[The Teacher]

Thanks, post. But honestly, I'm not exageratting the differences. If someone endorses (or apologizes for, or denies) the crimes of people like Stalin then that is a big difference and I couldn't be in a group with a person like that.

[Broletariat]

Thanks, post. But honestly, I'm not exageratting the differences. If someone endorses (or apologizes for, or denies) the crimes of people like Stalin then that is a big difference and I couldn't be in a group with a person like that.
I don't deny that man.

Look into Left Communism, Stalin basically killed all our people off, and we had a certain spineless member (cough bordiga) in Italy who wouldn't stand up to Stalin.

[Franz Fanonipants]

Thanks, post. But honestly, I'm not exageratting the differences. If someone endorses (or apologizes for, or denies) the crimes of people like Stalin then that is a big difference and I couldn't be in a group with a person like that.

comrade, what "crimes" did stalin commit?

[Post-Something]

What does it matter? If you're fighting for something like better pensions or wages, or even to oust someone from power what does it matter as long as you get it? The point is that its collective action

[The Teacher]

comrade, what "crimes" did stalin commit?

Are you joking?

[The Teacher]

What does it matter? If you're fighting for something like better pensions or wages, or even to oust someone from power what does it matter as long as you get it? The point is that its collective action

Winning is the most important thing. You're right. But you won't win if your working with people who think mass murder is cool.

[Post-Something]

Winning is the most important thing. You're right. But you won't win if your working with people who think mass murder is cool.

Ach, a lot of these people are exaggerating, they wouldn't make the same decisions if they were in their positions probably, and why would that matter in todays age when we have so many other non violent methods to use against people in power? Sure violence is necessary, but you're truly an idiot if thats what you would think of turning to first. Look, this is online and people say some pretty uncensored things online. But I can assure you that if you go and join a union or a leftist organisation, mass murder won't be the only thing you'll be talking about.

[The Teacher]

I've never been in a union meeting where mass murder was even discussed. But I've met plenty of people on the left who wanted to talk me into setting fire to banks and what not.

[The Teacher]

Also, just in terms of message discipline. If you're advocating for a cause then you can't have someone beside you saying "Stalin wasn't so bad" people will stop listening to you and for good reason.

[Jose Gracchus]

Yeah the modern union movement is sure going strong with its narrow economism. Let me know how that goes when your teachers' union is stripped away and you become a Wal-Mart style slave at a charter school.

[The Teacher]

Yeah the modern union movement is sure going strong with its narrow economism. Let me know how that goes when your teachers' union is stripped away and you become a Wal-Mart style slave at a charter school.

Already happened. That's how I ended up here.

[RadioRaheem84]

You also might want to drop the whole notion that we're the "fringe" left.

[Jose Gracchus]

Why can't people who don't like it here, I don't know, go about their own real life. Why do they think they need to provide a fucking eulogy like anyone will give a damn or miss them or they are teaching some lesson.

[Post-Something]

I've never been in a union meeting where mass murder was even discussed. But I've met plenty of people on the left who wanted to talk me into setting fire to banks and what not.

Come on man, you're arguing trivialities. Is this honestly why you don't want to be associated with the left? People are angry, thats a fact. But believe me, it's not just us on the left that are angry, I've heard it from every walk of life. It's a widely accepted notion that the banks made a big blunder this time.

[The Teacher]

Come on man, you're arguing trivialities. Is this honestly why you don't want to be associated with the left? People are angry, thats a fact. But believe me, it's not just us on the left that are angry, I've heard it from every walk of life. It's a widely accepted notion that the banks made a big blunder this time.

This was in the mid 90's. Point taken though.

[Post-Something]

Why can't people who don't like it here, I don't know, go about their own real life. Why do they think they need to provide a fucking eulogy like anyone will give a damn or miss them or they are teaching some lesson.

You're so helpful. This person is clearly sympathetic to the left, why not engage them?

[The Teacher]

If anyone reads my OP, its an apology for behaving rudely on this forum. At least I hope it came off that way.

[Kadir Ateş]

Broletariat, actually I believe Bordiga was the only member of the communist left to "tell Stalin off to his face" and live to tell the tale:

http://home.earthlink.net/~lrgoldner/bordiga.html

[Welshy]

I think a part of your problem is that you see Marxist-Leninists who support Stalin (and Mao) and then think that everyone on the left is the same. As others have said you should look into the various types of Left Communism, and all look up Rosa Luxemburg's stuff. You might want to check out some one that Uncle Sam has gotten me to look up, Gavrill Myasnikov. You can find his Manifesto of The Workers' Group of the Russian Communist Party on the International Communist Currents website.

[HEAD ICE]

Broletariat, actually I believe Bordiga was the only member of the communist left to "tell Stalin off to his face" and live to tell the tale:

http://home.earthlink.net/~lrgoldner/bordiga.html (http://home.earthlink.net/%7Elrgoldner/bordiga.html)

This is true, but I don't think this is what he was referring to. It is true that it was the Italian Left that first began to level substantive criticisms towards Stalin and the Comintern way before Trotsky, and Bordiga went and gave a great speech in the middle of what amounted to 'enemy territory' (though he and many people didn't consider it so at the time). He also had the private meeting with Stalin where he did call him the gravedigger of the revolution.

The ironic thing though, given how Bordiga and the Italian left are called "ultra-leftist sects" (which is misleading, it couldn't be 'ultra-leftist' if the opinions of Bordiga constituted the majority of the party and the vast majority of the party's working class members, and for the same reason it could hardly be a 'sect' either), Bordiga was strongly committed to avoiding factionalism within the Comintern and the PCd'I. The problem with Bordiga is that he wasn't sectarian enough (another reason why he is called 'sectarian' is for opposing a "united front" with the bourgeois parties (the Social Democratic parties, being as fully capitalist in content as any other if we want to take what Lenin and Luxemburg wrote serious) that hoisted Mussolini into power in a struggle against... Mussolini). Of course, hindsight is 20/20, but Bordiga's fanatical non-sectarianism meant handing over the party to Zinoviev and the capitalist mafia called the Comintern.

As with every other party in the Comintern, it merely became an appendage of the foreign policy of Russia in Italy rather than a territorial organization of the class conscious proletariat fighting for international revolution. The Communist Party of Italy, which later became the Italian Communist Party, became probably the most degenerate "Communist" party in all of Europe.

[Franz Fanonipants]

Are you joking?

not at all, i'm asking for your take on it.

[28350]

The Communist Party of Italy, which later became the Italian Communist Party, became probably the most degenerate "Communist" party in all of Europe.

Was this true under the leadership of Gramsci?

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

Was this true under the leadership of Gramsci?

I think he means the PCd'I as the first major bastion of what became known as "eurocommunism".

[Red Commissar]

I can understand some frustrations with "left" groups with the sectarian attitudes and presumably the whole "litmus test" approach to testing who is a real left or not, but from groups I've met on my own time (ie outside the internet), they have their own things going.

Revleft is a good tool for learning and discussion but it should not be viewed as a center of activity. Lot of "groups" might inflate their importance or power to unreal proportions, and generally participate in behavior that would look bad. Revleft doesn't necessarily embody the left but is one of the many currents within it.

I think a good place to start honestly would be to stop fetishizing figures from a long time ago and launching polemics against some other Marxist or anarchist because our Marxist or anarchist of choice didn't like them. The latter in particular causes so many of what could have been good discussions to go off topic and get ugly things to the surface.

It's good to stick around here and discuss things, don't let your opinion of this end of things get soured because of your impressions by some users or people.