Belarusian dictator arrests silent protesters

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13975788


Sergei does not look like a typical opposition activist. A thin 20-year-old, he speaks in a quiet voice and is sometimes lost for words.
But when the KGB comes calling to your door - it must mean someone is afraid of you.
A month ago the plain-clothed "specialists" visited Sergei's flat in the Belarusian capital, Minsk, and took his computer. They were after the passwords for a social network group he had created.
"They tried to delete the group," he tells the BBC. "They didn't realise you can't simply erase things like this."
Sergei, his computer and the social network group are all part of a new type of protest, which is making the Belarusian authorities very nervous.
Those authorities have been quick to stamp on any challenge to the regime of President Alexander Lukashenko, who has been in power since 1994 and has been described by the US as the "last dictator in Europe".
Following the victory awarded to Mr Lukashenko in December's election - widely condemned as fraudulent - the authorities have jailed opposition members and cracked down on any sign of dissent.
No slogans Even so, every Wednesday since late May, thousands of people have come out onto the main squares of Belarusian cities, responding to rallying calls spread via Facebook and its Russian-language version VKontakte.
Continue reading the main story (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13975788#story_continues_2) “Start Quote

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/53786000/jpg/_53786760_minsk_online_feature_pix.jpg
People want change and they come out to show this”
Sergei Opposition activist
The gatherings are strictly non-verbal: shouting slogans will certainly land you in the back of a police van. Little by little a universal code developed - now people just clap, every two or three minutes. Otherwise, it is silent.
Sergei recalls an old Soviet joke. "It's about a guy who stands near the Kremlin handing out leaflets. When police arrest him, they see that the leaflets are blank. 'Well, the guy says, everyone knows what's wrong, there's no need to write it down'."
Everyone knows what the organised silence is all about, says Sergei. "People want change and they come out to show this."
According to Sergei, the silent gatherings break all the rules of previous opposition rallies. There are no organisers to arrest. And, unlike in the past, they are everywhere, not only in the capital.
In June, dozens of cities saw these gatherings. In one village 10 people showed up. The entire village police force - nine officers - came to control them.
In Minsk, on Wednesday police were out in their thousands. But this show of force did not deter the protesters. Not even a loud disco, set up by the authorities on the main square, could drown the sound of applause.
Muscled men It all happened suddenly. At exactly 1900 the crowd, milling about on the edges of the square, condensed. The first, tentative clapping started.
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/53786000/jpg/_53786214_minsk_online_feature_pix.jpg The BBC did not escape the enforcers
Minutes later, the crowd started walking. Immediately, muscled men in sportswear, with curled wire sticking out of their ears, moved too.
Suddenly, and at random they started grabbing people and dragged them violently to the unmarked buses which followed the procession.
Journalists who tried to film the arrests were punched or thrown to the ground. The BBC's own cameraman bore the brunt of the enforcers' ire.
People screamed, the crowd tried to grab its members back. One young woman was thrown head first on the steps of the bus. She managed to break free.
Others were less lucky. Human rights observers counted at least three busloads of people arrested.
At such a march a week ago, more than 450 people were detained. Most were released without charge, but often with a heavy fine. The social networks responded with a donation scheme to help pay their penalties.
In the absence of any independent polling it is hard to tell how many Belarusians share the protesters' views.
Yuri Chausov, a political analyst in Minsk, suggests that the ability of the gatherings to undermine Mr Lukashenko's rule may have been overestimated.
But that is not to say they will have no effect.
The rallies "should be seen as a symptom and as a good way of fighting fear", he says.
Economic stimulus But real change will come only when the hitherto indifferent working class starts raising its voice, he says.
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/53786000/jpg/_53786766_012337477-2.jpg At the moment the weight of the working class is not behind the protests
According to some accounts, this is already happening on major state-owned Belarusian plants, with workers staging silent protests when their salaries are not paid on time.
"This is something Belarus hasn't seen since the mid-90s," says Mr Chausov.
And economic crisis might spur much more popular discontent. Since spring, the national currency has lost 60% of its value - but while prices have shot up, wages remain the same. Many state-owned firms are short of cash and, according to some reports, have started to delay payments.
Even the state energy company failed to find enough hard currency to pay the $20m (£13m) bill for Russian electricity, prompting the Russian company to cut supplies.
That's a familiar experience for citizens in Minsk, who try to buy dollars, euros or even Russian roubles at currency exchange kiosks, to try to protect their savings, sometimes waiting a day or two.
It is those people who, according to internet activist Sergei, will join the protest in the next few weeks.
"Not many people care that there are political prisoners in Belarus, but economics touches everyone, and it's the state of the economy which will drive people out on the streets."


http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2011/07/20117411025439251.html

Don't some posters think this clown is an anti-Imperialist? Why exactly? He's so obviously just an authoritarian Brezhnev wannabe who seems more interested in dressing up for his T-72 parade than actually dealing with the social problems in his country.

How the police were treating the protesters in the video is fucking despicable too.

[Spartacus.]

.................................................. ........


American dictator arrests silent protesters





Police arrest 35 protesters outside U.S. military base where 'WikiLeaks whistleblower' Bradley Manning is held


Police in riot gear arrested 35 people yesterday during a demonstration at the U.S. base holding the soldier accused of leaking thousands of confidential memos to the Wikileaks website.

Hundreds of supporters had rallied outside the Marine Corps Base Quantico in Virginia wearing T-shirts and carrying signs bearing the smiling image of Bradley Manning.
Many sat underneath a yellow banner which read 'Caution: Whistleblower Torture Zone.'
Short scuffles broke out as dozens of officers attempted to push the protesters, some of whom were seated on the pavement, away from the road.
Among those taken away was Daniel Ellsberg, a Manning supporter who leaked the so-called Pentagon Papers in 1971. Ellsberg was the former military analyst who leaked the Pentagon's secret history of the Vietnam War that was later published in major newspapers.

They have been charged with 'unlawful assembly' and 'careless interference with traffic'. One protester was also charged with assault and battery of an officer.

Manning, a former intelligence analyst and self-styled 'hactivist', is accused of leaking a raft of Iraq and Afghanistan war logs, more than 250,000 confidential State Department cables and a military video of an attack on unarmed men in Iraq.

The rally was held along with more than two dozen others around the world to protest over the computer analyst's detention.

Manning faces nearly two dozen charges, including aiding the enemy, a crime which carries the death penalty or life in prison.
Army prosecutors, however, have told Manning's lawyers that they will not recommend the death penalty.

The Army Private First Class is held alone in his cell for all but an hour a day. Earlier this month it was revealed that he now wears a suicide-proof sleep suit after complaining of the humiliation of being stripped naked each night after his clothes are taken away.

His lawyer has repeatedly complained that the 23-year-old's strict confinement conditions are punitive, a charge the military has denied.

The military maintains that Manning's treatment complies with U.S. law and military regulations, and it has said that some of the conditions are needed to prevent him from harming himself.

Officials have claimed Manning is on suicide watch and is being treated just like all other prisoners in Quantico – assertions Manning refuted in a recently published letter.

David House, a friend who has visited Manning about 15 times since September, told the protesters that he appreciated their support.

'It's stuff like this that gives Bradley hope,' House said. 'When I go in there, look him in the eyes and say, "Bradley, there are people on the outside that support you," his eyes light up.'
The heavy police presence at the rally included officers from six agencies, mounted officers and tactical vehicles.

Several leaders of the rally wanted to lay flowers at an Iwo Jima memorial at the base's entrance but were kept about 40ft away by police who had set up barriers.

Colonel Thomas Johnson, a spokesman for the Marine Corps Combat Development Command at Quantico, said access to the memorial was denied because protest activity is not permitted on base grounds.

'We're pleased that people were able to express their First Amendment rights in a manner that did not infringe upon base property,' he said.
Earlier this month, Manning's confinement was the topic of widespread media coverage when chief State Department spokesman PJ Crowley resigned after criticising the handling of Pte Manning's detention.

Crowley's resignation prompted reporters to ask President Barack Obama about Manning's confinement, and he said he had been assured the conditions were appropriate.
President Obama said at the time he has been assured by Pentagon officials that the treatment of Bradley Manning has been ‘meeting our basic standards’.

Earlier this year Amnesty International wrote to Defence Secretary Robert Gates to ‘express concern’ about Manning’s conditions.
He spends 23 hours a day in a single cell, measuring just 72sq ft.

The human rights organisation said: ‘He has no association or contact with other pre-trial detainees and he is allowed to exercise, alone, for just one hour a day, in a day-room or outside.

‘The restrictions imposed in PFC Manning’s case appear to be unnecessarily harsh and punitive, in view of the fact that he has no history of violence or disciplinary infractions and that he is a pre-trial detainee not yet convicted of any offence.’
Manning is being held under Prevention of Injury rules meaning he is ‘deprived of sheets and a separate pillow’.
In a letter published earlier this month he refuted allegations that he is not being treated any differently from other prisoners.

He wrote that on January 18 ‘I was stripped of all clothing with the exception of my underwear. My prescription eyeglasses were taken away from me and I was forced to sit in essential blindness.’
He complained that he was treated differently to other prisoners, adding: ‘I have been left to languish under the unduly harsh conditions of MAX Custody and [Prisoner of Interest] Status since my arrival on 29 July 2010.’
An 11-page letter released by Manning's lawyer detailed his routine. He starts with a morning inspection in which he has to stand naked outside his cell during roll-call.
Manning is not allowed any personal possessions in his cell, nor can he exercise there. He must answer verbally when his guards check on him every five minutes, so daytime sleep is impossible.
He can leave his cell for just an hour a day, when he is shackled and taken to a recreation room where he must walk around in circles.

He cannot read newspapers or watch television news. If he moves his head out of sight while sleeping, the guards will wake him up.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1368449/35-arrested-outside-U-S-base-hundreds-protest-detention-Bradley-Manning-WikiLeaks-data.html


Don't some posters think this clown is an Democrat? Why exactly? He's so obviously just an authoritarian Hitler wannabe who seems more interested in dressing up for his F-16 parade than actually dealing with the social problems in his country.

How the police were treating the protesters in the video is fucking despicable too.


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_43oLGdosZSY/TTgQg2bS3WI/AAAAAAAAAE0/bYlBo2tQseg/s1600/yo.jpg


If you are so obsessed with fighting against dictators, why don't you start with your own country instead of attacking countries that are on the official US enemies list? :rolleyes: But I suppose that would be much more difficult considering the fact that you probably lack the spine to criticize governments that are not proclaimed dictatorships by the US Department of State...

Oh, btw; since you are so much into criticizing European "dictators", here is one more for you. He has been ruling my country with an iron fist for more than 20 years and has ruined the country in order to enrich himself and his cronies. Lukashenko never did something like that. He is now "retired", but is still running the country behind the scene and through his puppets in the government.


http://img.allvoices.com/thumbs/event/598/486/65420809-egypts-president.jpg


You are condemning people's heroes like Lukashenko, but you are totally unaware of real dictators like him.




Following a referendum held just over five years ago, on May 21, 2006, in which a narrow majority voted to secede from the State Union of Serbia and Montenegro, the Republic of Montenegro declared itself independent. The population of the tiny republic of some 620,000 people favoured “independence” by 55.5 percent, bringing to six the number of countries formed from the former territory of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (SFRY).
Five years later, the social and political situation in Montenegro, and indeed in all other former Yugoslav republics, belies the false claim that the break-up of Yugoslavia into “independent” states represented the historic realisation of national self-determination and emancipation for the peoples of the region.
According to the Montenegrin statistics office, Monsat, the average wage in 2010 was just €479 [US$683] a month, virtually the same as in 2009, when it was reported to be €463. A closer look at the breakdown by industry is more telling: while wages in the financial sector were almost twice the average at €891, and those employed in transport, storage and related industries earned €607, workers in the fishing industry, for example, averaged only €159 [US$227] a month.
Putting these numbers into perspective, the Podgorica-based daily Vijesti reports on June 17 that the consumer basket for May 2011 was €773 and that the “average family” needs 56 percent of the average wage just for food. The average rent is estimated at €169, while in the capital of Podgorica, which has almost one third of the country’s population, a family can hardly find a place to live for less than €200 and this excludes the sky-rocketing costs of utilities.
If one takes a look at the data that focus on the working class, the widespread poverty and social deprivation become even more evident. In 2009, the latest available data, 6.8 percent of people were living below the “national absolute poverty line” or €169 per month for a single adult person. It was a steep rise from 4.9 percent in 2008, reflecting the effects of the international financial crisis, and it can be safely assumed that the worsening trend has continued since. At the same time, the minimum wage is €160, all benefits included. This means the government implicitly acknowledges that its minimum wage is below the poverty level―even for just one person with dependents excluded.
The June 19 edition of Vijesti reports on the situation in higher education, as the enrolment for the next academic year starts. Of some 6,500 prospective university students, less than 2,000 can expect to be state funded, while the rest will pay tuition fees between €500 and €2,500 per year, a huge drain on family budgets.
The government is able to maintain pressure on wages through the cultivation of a huge “reserve army of labour”―the unemployed. Official unemployment for 2010 was just under 20 percent, with real figures undoubtedly much higher. The ever widening gap between the vast majority of impoverished citizens and a handful of “winners of the democratic transition” threatens to lead to social upheaval.
This was the warning issued by the general secretary of the Union of Free Trade Unions of Montenegro, Srdja Kekovic, on June 6, in Vijesti. He pointed to three hunger strikes that occurred during the last month, at the Duvankomerc tobacco factory, the Lenka shoe factory and the engineering and construction firm Novi Prvoborac, as clear signs of growing social tensions. The situation at Novi Prvoborac has recently escalated with workers partially occupying the company premises and threatening self-immolation. Coal miners and mineral water factory workers have announced their intention to go on hunger strike as well.
Without mentioning the role of the trade unions in the process, Kekovic sought to lay the blame on the government for privatisation of public property over the last 20 years. “The workers were told that privatisation will bring higher wages, production, and that it’s going to be efficient, transparent and just. Not a single one of those postulates has been realized”, he said. For all his talk of “public property being squandered”, “privatisations being complete failure”, “a small number of people enriching themselves at the expense of others”, etc., the union official’s own proposed course of action is entirely limited to pressuring the government to change its policies. Speaking of the widening social gap and resulting public anger, he says, “All of this could change quickly, if the government faced those problems in a proper way”.
Even a cursory look at the history and development of the ruling clique exposes this failed perspective of pressuring the government for reforms. For all the talk of democracy, Montenegro is still ruled by former Stalinist cadre, characterized above all by shameless opportunism and corruption. This is most evident in the person of Milo Djukanovic, head of the misnamed Democratic Party of Socialists (DPS), a direct successor of the Stalinist Communist League of Montenegro and the only party in the Balkans to have enjoyed uninterrupted rule since the first “democratic, multi-party elections” in December 1990.
Having joined the Yugoslav Communist League in 1979, Djukanovic became the youngest member ever of its central committee in 1988. As with many other Stalinists, he seamlessly traded pseudo-Marxist rhetoric for virulent Great Serbian nationalism when he was installed in power during SFRY President Slobodan Milosevic’s so-called “anti-bureaucratic revolution” in 1989.
The Western powers looked favourably on Milosevic in the 1980s as he pursued the structural adjustment demanded by the International Monetary Fund (IMF) and other international institutions, involving the privatisation of state property and the imposition of austerity policies that aggravated simmering ethnic tensions. However, the economic pressure exerted by the West laid the objective foundations for the dissolution of the unified Balkan state, which was accelerated by the changed world situation following the dissolution of the Soviet Union in 1991. The great powers sought to fill the resulting power vacuum. A race began amongst the transnational corporations to secure control over raw materials, labour and markets.
Despite warnings of a violent outcome, the break-up of Yugoslavia was encouraged by Germany, which abruptly recognised the independence of Croatia and Slovenia in 1991, and the US, which even more recklessly gave its approval to Bosnian secession in 1992.
Serbia became an obstacle to more direct imperialist control of a region considered strategically significant―both in terms of its geographical location and its oil, gas and mineral deposits―and formerly dominated by the Soviet Union. Milosevic rapidly joined Iraqi President Saddam Hussein on imperialism’s list of “Most Wanted”.
Milosevic’s role in the breakup of Yugoslavia was thoroughly reactionary, but his exploitation of Serbian nationalism differed little from the chauvinist policies of Tudjman in Croatia, Izetbegovic in Bosnia, and Kucan in Slovenia, all of whom adapted themselves―like so many other ex-Stalinist leaders in Eastern Europe―to the centrifugal social tendencies unleashed by the reestablishment of market economies. Milosevic’s former ally Djukanovic played a similar critical role, aggressively advocating Serbian chauvinism before switching, for entirely tactical reasons, to a separatist agenda while prime minister of Montenegro from 1991 to 1998 and then president to 2002. He then returned as prime minister in 2008, finally stepping down in December 2010.
While sanctions were imposed on Yugoslavia as part of the NATO war against Serbia, the Montenegrin republic, which was legally part of the same state along with Serbia, was cultivated as an ally against the Milosevic regime in Belgrade. Control of Montenegro deprived Serbia of its access to the Adriatic Sea and cut off most of its oil supplies. The tiny republic became the second main beneficiary of overseas US financial aid and was granted quasi-sovereign status, participating at United Nations meetings and those of the Stability Pact for South East Europe. Djukanovic was actively promoted by the European Union (EU) and the US, who described him as a “shining example” of a democratic reformer.
For a period, following the ousting of Milosevic and fearing for the stability of the more pliable government installed in Belgrade under Yugoslav President Vojislav Kostunica, the Western powers cautioned Djukanovic against holding a referendum on independence, even though they had encouraged the economic and political momentum for such a development. In the end, however, they decided to push for independence for both Montenegro and Kosovo. Following the vote for independence in 2006, officials declared the EU would adhere to the result and that the “strategic goal” was “full integration into NATO and the European Union”.
For their part, the Montenegrin separatists saw their membership of the EU as a means of buoying the fragile economy, with President Filip Vujanovic saying he expected “fast economic development and an increase in living standards”. The main plank of their economic programme was the expansion of the tourism industry. As the WSWS pointed out at the time, “This will bring little relief to the majority of the Montenegrin population. Its small economy will be entirely at the mercy of the major global corporations and the international financial organisations”.

Having won “independence for Montenegro” in 2006, that is, freedom for the tiny elite of his cronies who enriched themselves through the plundering of state property to forge even closer ties with world capitalism, Djukanovic has tried to tone down earlier nationalistic rhetoric and substitute it with vague, liberal, “21st Century” values that Montenegro supposedly shares with the European Union and even NATO. His recent resignation reflects the growing difficulty of his DPS to square its dependency on Western imperialist favours with the growing social polarisation of Montenegrin society.
These are the people the trade union leader Kekovic approaches to beg for a few more crusts off their table for hunger-striking workers and their families. In the course of the past two decades the Balkan elites have demonstrated time and time again that they will stop at nothing, even fomenting nationalism and waging war, in order to preserve their class and compradorial interests.


http://www.wsws.org/articles/2011/jun2011/mont-j28.shtml


So, basically, you can go to not very pleasant imaginary places (which I won't mention because I will be banned) with your crypto-fascist, burgeous propaganda about Belarus and Lukashenko. The people of former socialist countries are terribly suffering today and the last thing they need is some privileged upper middle class phoney communist liberal kid pissing them off with his libertarian propaganda because Lukashenko has arrested a few American paid agents that wish to undermine Belarus social system and people's welfare in the interests of US corporations. I'm just sick of ultra-leftists and their petit-burgeous idealism, and their habit of spitting on every proggressive or socialist government because it doesn't fullfill their ideals and dreams of perfect society.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

(1) Wow dude nice using the US government as an example of a government which is the same. If you haven't checked, folks on this forum who you call "ultra left" and "liberal" criticize US and EU government abuses too.

(2) Do you have any evidence of these "paid agents"? If you have proof that they are paid CIA agents trying to overthrow the government then you can try and convict them with that evidence instead of beating them up at a protest. You know, innocent before proven guilty, court of laws, etc

(3) Did you not read the article? The Belarussian working class is protesting the same kind of cuts in living standards you're mentioning in other Eastern European countries. Their government is not paying the working class. Lukashenko may have staved off some of the suffering after the fall of the USSR but he is now facing the crisis of Capitalism like all other bourgeois dictators. Massive inflation and stagnated and unpaid wages ... what a "working class hero".

(4) Sorry what is progressive/socialist about beating up or arresting protesters and not paying your workers?

(5) Lukashenko banned various social networking sites too... "people's hero" who apparently doesn't like the "people" to use the damn internet to talk to each other.

(6) The Yugo governments are totally irrelevant, that's a red herring, I'm not calling former Yugoslav governments good I'm calling the Belarusian government bad. If you want to post a thread about how bad your government is, why don't you post a thread about it? Post some evidence? We can post about that and talk about how shitty that government is too. But the shittiness of your government does not mean anyone should support bourgeois Brezhnev wannabes.


EDIT some other interesting things about this "Progressive" and "Socialist" leader:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Belarus

Same-sex sexual activity legal http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/15px-Yes_check.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Yes_check.svg) (since 1994) Equal age of consent http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/15px-Yes_check.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Yes_check.svg) Anti-discrimination law http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a2/X_mark.svg/15px-X_mark.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:X_mark.svg) Same-sex marriage http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a2/X_mark.svg/15px-X_mark.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:X_mark.svg) Recognition of same-sex couples http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a2/X_mark.svg/15px-X_mark.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:X_mark.svg) Adoption by same-sex couples http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a2/X_mark.svg/15px-X_mark.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:X_mark.svg) Gay men and women allowed to serve openly in the military http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a2/X_mark.svg/15px-X_mark.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:X_mark.svg) Right to change legal gender http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a2/X_mark.svg/15px-X_mark.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:X_mark.svg) MSMs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men_who_have_sex_with_men) allowed to donate blood http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a2/X_mark.svg/15px-X_mark.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:X_mark.svg)

In 2001 the Belarus government allegedly prohibited the Belarus Gay Pride Festival. On 3 August 2001 unidentified vandals, broke into and vandalised the flat of Lambda Belarus leader Andrei Babkin where fliers, posters and booklets of the festival “Gay Pride 2001” had been kept.
In 2002, days before Gay Pride 2002, Lambda Belarus leader Edward Tarletski was called to the Minsk police station where he was told that if a gay pride parade took place, “the police will not take any responsibility for possible disorder.” The police also threatened Tarletski with criminal prosecution in case of a street demonstration like it was in 2001.[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)]
In 2004, an international gay and lesbian festival was forced to be canceled. he organizing committee of the final (Belarusian) phase of the 4th International Moonbow Human Rights & Homo Cultural Festival (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=International_Moonbow_Human_Rights _%26_Homo_Cultural_Festival&action=edit&redlink=1) and the first stage of this year's ILGCN (International Lesbian & Gay Cultural Network) World Lesbian and Gay World Conference 28–29 August 2004 were forced to cancel the event in Minsk. This came after authorities frightened a club owner into withdrawing his promise to host the event. In addition, threatening phone calls from authorities said foreigners trying to attend the event for workshops and discussions "would be immediately expelled from the country in keeping with the article of intervention in domestic affairs of the Republic of Belarus."[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Belarus#endnote_paper-3) [9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Belarus#cite_note-ReferenceA-8)[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Belarus#cite_note-14)
Apart from an annual march for the remembrance of Chernobyl disaster every year in April, no public demonstrations are allowed by the authorities. For example, on 10 May 2008, a group of gay activists asked permission to hold a picket next to a monument in the centre of Minsk.[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)]
On 27 October 2008, the same group asked permission to hold a protest in support of gay rights near the Russian Embassy in Minsk. Both events were not authorised. Because the country is currently not a member of the Council of Europe, Belarussian activists cannot appeal to the European Court of Human Rights (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Court_of_Human_Rights). It is the same group which decided to organise with Russian LGBT activists a Slavic Pride (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_Pride) which is planned to alternate between Moscow and Minsk every year.[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Belarus#cite_note-15)
In January 2009, an event titled "The Right To Love" was planned and designed to raise public awareness about homophobia and discrimination against LGBT people in Belarus. Authorization was denied. LGBT activist Roman Mandrykin filed a complaint in the Court of the Central Borough of Gomel in response to this decision of the Gomel City Administration. In the text of the complaint, Mr. Mandrykin claims that the decision of the Gomel City Administration violated his right to the Freedom of Assembly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_Assembly), as guaranteed by Article 35 of the Constitution of Belarus. He adds that the local regulation, Regulation 299, is itself unconstitutional in that it imposes unreasonable burdens on those seeking to organize public gatherings. The organizers intend to pursue this claim until it is resolved and hope to be able to organize a gathering in 2010.[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Belarus#cite_note-16)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Belarus#Industrial_relations


The situation of trade unions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_unions) and their members in the region has also been criticised by Amnesty UK,[58] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Belarus#cite_note-57) with allegations that authorities have interfered in trade union elections and that independent trade union leaders have been dismissed from their positions.
In recent years, trades unions in the country have been subject to a variety of restrictions, including:[59] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Belarus#cite_note-58)
The banning of unregistered trade unions
As of 1999, all previously registered trade unions have to re-register and provide the official address of the headquarters, which often includes a business address. A letter from the management is also required, confirming the address - making the fate of the trade union entirely dependent on the management. Any organisation which fails to do so is banned and its membership dissolved.
High minimum membership requirements
In a measure which has also reportedly been used against Jewish human rights organisations, the Belarusian government has announced that any new trade union has to contain a minimum of five hundred members for it to be recognised, making it extremely difficult for new unions to be founded.
Systematic interference
The International Labour Organization (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Labour_Organization)'s governing body issued a report in March 2001 complaining of systematic interference in trade union activities, including harassment and attacks on union assets. Workers who are members of independent trade unions in Belarus have, according to Unison (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unison), been arrested for distributing pamphlets and other literature, and have faced losing their jobs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Belarus#Anti-semitism


President Alexander Lukashenko (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Lukashenko) provoked outrage when he praised Hitler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler) in a Russian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia) NTV interview in 1995, saying that:
The history of Germany (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany) is a copy of the history of Belarus. Germany was raised from the ruins thanks to firm authority, and not everything connected with that well known figure, Adolf Hitler, was bad. German order evolved over the centuries and under Hitler it attained its peak.
...



In March 2004, Gutman announced that he was leaving Belarus for the USA, in protest at the authorities' state anti-Semitism, an opinion backed up by a July 2005 report by UCSJ that a personal aide of the President, a former Communist Party (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_Belarus) ideologue called Eduard Skobelev (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Eduard_Skobelev&action=edit&redlink=1), had been publishing anti-Semitic books, and had even promoted the use of guns to solve what he termed the "Jewish problem". In 1997, Skobelev was given the title of "Honored Figure of Culture" by Lukashenko, and was put in charge of the journal "Neman".

[Threetune]

(1) Wow dude nice using the US government as an example of a government which is the same. If you haven't checked, folks on this forum who you call "ultra left" and "liberal" criticize US and EU government abuses too.




Most new threads posted by ‘lefts’ and liberals start with attacks on the victims and enemies of the dominant imperialist states. As if there was some equivalence of oppression on the planet between the mighty imperialist warmongers and victims and enemies.

The OP of this thread is one in a long line of such pro-imperialist propaganda stories pumped out with monotonous regularity. In fact, the more trouble that imperialism gets into in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya etc the more our resident liberals desperately pour their bile. It’s getting funnier by the day to see them trawling for every bit of dirt that even the mainstream capitalist press is hesitant about repeating. It’s great entertainment waiting to see when they will start a thread with an outright full-blooded attack on the UN, NATO, the US and Britain etc. It’s a gift that just keeps on giving.

[bailey_187]

i dont get what this "ah but this govt is just as bad/worse" argument when its posted on revleft. its not like any of the other bad governments are upheld as something good. I get why u may post this sort of thing on a multi-ideology political site to supporters of the US govt who may post articles like this, but as far as i can tell, the OP has no allegence or loyalty to the US government, so what does it prove? If anything it just shows that Belarus is similar in some ways to the US government, which doesnt make Belarus or its supporters come of any better, but in some ways worse.

[bailey_187]

Most new threads posted by ‘lefts’ and liberals start with attacks on the victims and enemies of the dominant imperialist states. As if there was some equivalence of oppression on the planet between the mighty imperialist warmongers and victims and enemies.

The OP of this thread is one in a long line of such pro-imperialist propaganda stories pumped out with monotonous regularity. In fact, the more trouble that imperialism gets into in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya etc the more our resident liberals desperately pour their bile. It’s getting funnier by the day to see them trawling for every bit of dirt that even the mainstream capitalist press is hesitant about repeating. It’s great entertainment waiting to see when they will start a thread with an outright full-blooded attack on the UN, NATO, the US and Britain etc. It’s a gift that just keeps on giving.

It the attitute that Belarus, Libya etc is some sort of progressive state that makes people post these articles though. Its a given that we are all opposed to the government of the EU and America, and wish for their overthrow by the working class - however according to some Belarus is already a society controlled by the working class, or is atleast in some ways similar. So people post articles that show belarus in a bad light in hope that nutcases such as yourself will reconsider

[Reznov]

Its ok though if this kind of thing happens, he CLAIMS to be Left Wing!

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

You are condemning people's heroes like Lukashenko, but you are totally unaware of realdictators like him..

What in the fuck makes Lukashenko a people's fucking hero, really? I hear the Ministry of Privatisation is running a tight ship. People's hero, right?

[Threetune]

It the attitute that Belarus, Libya etc is some sort of progressive state that makes people post these articles though. Its a given that we are all opposed to the government of the EU and America, and wish for their overthrow by the working class - however according to some Belarus is already a society controlled by the working class, or is atleast in some ways similar. So people post articles that show belarus in a bad light in hope that nutcases such as yourself will reconsider

The name of the site is Revleft. Once-upon –a-time this would have indicated that it had something to do with having a revolutionary stance towards imperialism in theory and practice. You even say “It’s a given that we are all opposed to the government of the EU and America, and wish for their overthrow by the working class –…” , but it is not. If someone was to tell you that they were an anti-racist fighter and proceeded to spend their time and energy slagging off black people rather than the racists around the world, you might have your doubts.
So it is with these Rev ‘lefts’, their bilious attacks on imperialisms victims and enemies in the midst of the greatest revolutionary economic crisis in the history of the world, makes them suspect.
Under cover of revolutionary in theory, they are reactionary in practice, attempting to persuade their reders that communism is a lost course and not worth having anyway, unless of course it’s some nonexistent and never to exist ‘ideal’ fantasy of freedom and democracy without the reality of continued uneven un-liberal class struggle. These people hate the long difficult struggle for communism IN PRACTICE and only ever offer theoretical abstract ‘ideals’ which suits capitalism just fine.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Lawls @ 3tune thinking Lukashenko is the victim of Imperialism. The working classes in Mexico, and Iraq, the peasants in Afghanistan, the workers who are exploited by all enterprise-both Western and otherwise, the farmers whose land is stolen, those are the victims of Imperialism. On the contrary, Lukashenkho uses imperialism as a convenient excuse to bolster his one-man rule, he is no victim of imperialism.

It does not concern 3tune at all that workers are not paid properly or homosexuals don't have a right to congregate or workers don't have a right to found unions because this man is a "victim of Imperialism". I would rather stand with all the victims of Capitalists, militarists and dictators, including unpaid workers in state enterprise or homosexuals wanting to express themselves openly. To accuse other people of being "idealists" while blatantly ignoring the material exploitation of labor or the arrest and intimidation of the gay community is quite an internal contradiction for 3tune to hold.

[Threetune]

Lawls @ 3tune thinking Lukashenko is the victim of Imperialism. The working classes in Mexico, and Iraq, the peasants in Afghanistan, the workers who are exploited by all enterprise-both Western and otherwise, the farmers whose land is stolen, those are the victims of Imperialism. On the contrary, Lukashenkho uses imperialism as a convenient excuse to bolster his one-man rule, he is no victim of imperialism.

It does not concern 3tune at all that workers are not paid properly or homosexuals don't have a right to congregate or workers don't have a right to found unions because this man is a "victim of Imperialism". I would rather stand with all the victims of Capitalists, militarists and dictators, including unpaid workers in state enterprise or homosexuals wanting to express themselves openly.

You would stand with them to do what exactly? Do tell us.

[bailey_187]

You would stand with them to do what exactly? Do tell us.

who, the workers?

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

You would stand with them to do what exactly? Do tell us.

Socialism? Worker's Democracy? The right to stop abuse from capitalists and police authorities? You know, all the things that are lacking in both liberal and authoritarian capitalist societies? The thing that every "Revolutionary Leftist" claims to be fighting for?

I'm certainly not going to stand by an authoritarian who fights workers, gays and political critics, or manages to find money to fuel his tanks for a fucking militarist dress up party and parade while failing to pay state employees.

[agnixie]

You would stand with them to do what exactly? Do tell us.

Considering your only meaningful activity is seemingly to post ridiculous quasi press releases on a small ultra-left board in support of a dizzying array of fascists, politburo holdovers and other plutocrats (aka third worldism), I'm not sure it's hard to do more than whatever it is you do.

[Threetune]

Socialism? Worker's Democracy? The right to stop abuse from capitalists and police authorities? You know, all the things that are lacking in both liberal and authoritarian capitalist societies? The thing that every "Revolutionary Leftist" claims to be fighting for?

I'm certainly not going to stand by an authoritarian who fights workers, gays and political critics, or manages to find money to fuel his tanks for a fucking militarist dress up party and parade while failing to pay state employees.

And what about standing with your reb friends in Libya? You were once proud to tell us they were a liberation movement we should support, what happened, have you forgotten them now in your unending search for perfect “Socialism? Worker's Democracy?”

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

And what about standing with your reb friends in Libya? You were once proud to tell us they were a liberation movement we should support, what happened, have you forgotten them now in your unending search for perfect “Socialism? Worker's Democracy?”

I disagree with how you characterize my arguments on the rebels (maybe you are confusing me with another poster). But it is totally irrelevant anyways, it has nothing at all to do with the topic at hand. I could have said the Libyan Rebels were the greatest revolutionaries ever, it would have absolutely no relevance to the discussion of whether or not the Belarusian government is actually progressive or not. You have not offered any evidence for this against the following facts about the state of Belorussia.

(1) Workers at state enterprises are going unpaid and there is a large drop of value in the currency

(2) Nonviolent protesters are getting violently beat up as are journalists, and protesters are receiving a fine for trying to speak their mind

(3) Homosexuals are interfered with and not allowed to publicly express themselves, join the army or receive equal social benefits.

(4) Transsexuals are not allowed to change legal gender

(5) Workers are repressed when they try to unionize

(6) The leader openly supports the "Order" that Hitler provided to Germany

The fact is that the anti-Impie tankies cannot provide any actual analysis which justifies the defense of this regime in Belarus. All that you have are baseless accusations of liberalism and other ad hominem nonsense towards anyone who is critical of it. Now, can you answer why a Leftist should support someone who seems like just another bourgeois nationalist thug who underpays the nation's working class while hosting his militaristic dress up and t-72 parades, instead of just accusing people of being "liberal" all the time? At least some other "socialist" countries like Cuba are making an honest effort to criticize correct mistakes in the past ... you routinely come up with support for Capitalist and authoritarian governments like Dengist China that are in some regards more socially reactionary than "Western" countries but never actually offer a reason why we should ignore the reactionary elements in those governments.

I would actually like to see this rationale. I see a lot of people agree with Spartacus's argument (which is mostly straw man) but I don't see any actual rational reasons for why (a) Belarus would have such reactionary policies if it is a "progressive" government (b) that all the opposition to Lukashenko is based on an attempt to privatize Belorussian economy and (c) Lukashenko is actually interested in preventing the privatization for revolutionary reasons. All evidence points to bourgeois authoritarianism. If you disagree with that perhaps an account of why it seems like bourgeois authoritarianism but isn't would be helpful, instead of blindly accusing everyone you disagree with of being "middle class" or "liberal" or whatever.

[bcbm]

These people hate the long difficult struggle for communism IN PRACTICE

i always thought communism had something to do with workers, not supporting every two bit crank who talks shit to the us. thanks for the correction

[Threetune]

I disagree with how you characterize my arguments on the rebels (maybe you are confusing me with another poster). But it is totally irrelevant anyways, it has nothing at all to do with the topic at hand. ........

It is absolutely relevant and everything to do with the topic. It’s about credibility! Although I do know that credibility is not important to anti-communism.
You say: “(maybe you are confusing me with another poster).” This is rich coming from you. You’re among other liberals here, who have deliberately falsely and pathetically been “accusing” me of “supporting” just about every government and movement on the planet, but when you’re all challenged to produce the evidence, you collapse into evasive manoeuvring, inference, sarcasm, slander, often with bilious bad tempered personal insults because you can’t back-up your accusations. Check it out.
But to settle this question once and for all, with you at least, I’m going to invite you to produce the evidence of me “supporting” anything other than Marxism-Leninism. You have the stage and you’re fans are waiting.

[Tabarnack]

Belarus Opposition Gets Aid

FEBRUARY 3, 2011

Dozens of governments pledged more than $120 million in aid to opposition groups in Belarus, and Poland's foreign minister predicted that the former Soviet republic's authoritarian leader eventually would be driven from power by an angry public.

The promises of assistance, made at a conference in the Polish capital, Warsaw, on Wednesday, came on the heels of sanctions imposed this week on Belarussian officials by the European Union and the U.S., after a severe government crackdown on dissidents in Belarus.

Polish Foreign Minister Radoslaw Sikorski, drawing parallels to events in Tunisia and Egypt, warned Belarussian President Alexander Lukashenko that his days in power are numbered. "Sooner or later, you will have to flee your own country," he said. Mr. Sikorski also said he had a message for the people of Belarus: "You are in Europe, and Europe is with you."

European nations that had been trying since 2008 to engage with Mr. Lukashenko in an effort to bring Belarus into the EU orbit.

EUROPE NEWS


You know in the US it's a crime to be an agent of a foreign country if you do not disclose it, and they can put you away for a long time... but I guess when interference in a sovereign country is done by western powers it's quite alright, imperialism with a liberal face is quite the thing it seems among "leftist", color revolution anyone, make that a rainbow one. :rolleyes:

[Thirsty Crow]

What in the fuck makes Lukashenko a people's fucking hero, really? I hear the Ministry of Privatisation is running a tight ship. People's hero, right?
He's the head of a modified deformed workers' state (yeah, a user of this board has argued so) which has slowed down the process of privatization.
This is enough, apparently.

[agnixie]

You know in the US it's a crime to be an agent of a foreign country if you do not disclose it, and they can put you away for a long time... but I guess when interference in a sovereign country is done by western powers it's quite alright, imperialism with a liberal face is quite the thing it seems among "leftist", color revolution anyone, make that a rainbow one. :rolleyes:

Belarus is not exactly a glorious workers' state braving the tide of imperialism. It's a state capitalist puppet of Russia.

[Threetune]

Belarus is not exactly a glorious workers' state braving the tide of imperialism. It's a state capitalist puppet of Russia.

It’s an enemy and possible future victim of another imperialist “freedom and democracy” colour coded “uprising” so beloved by ‘lefts’ of every stripe unless it responds with Leninist revolutionary fermness.

[danyboy27]

It’s an enemy and possible future victim of another imperialist “freedom and democracy” colour coded “uprising” so beloved by ‘lefts’ of every stripe unless it responds with Leninist revolutionary fermness.

You should start supporting saudi arabia, i got the feeling that in a couple of year, when oil price will become high, they might become a possible future of imperialism. Is might only happen in 50 years but hey, its a possible future victim of imperialism, just like canada when we will be the only source of fresh water in 100 years.

[Marxach-Léinínach]

Belarus is not exactly a glorious workers' state braving the tide of imperialism. It's a state capitalist puppet of Russia.

Fuck off with your western propaganda. Belarus is an independent state, it's Georgia that's the puppet state although of course I have no doubt you probably see it as lovely "liberal democracy" :rolleyes:

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

Fuck off with your western propaganda. Belarus is an independent state, it's Georgia that's the puppet state although of course I have no doubt you probably see it as lovely "liberal democracy" :rolleyes:

Wait, what? I thought Georgia is a wannabe-puppet of the European Union, not of Russia?

I wouldn't call Belarus a puppet of Russia either, but they are far from being in any shape of form socialist, they have just retained - for the time being, and continuously eroding - fragments of the good achievements of the Soviet Union, a situation which in its Belarus' incarnation is only progressive insofar as it is not as abyss-deeply regressive as what happened in Russia in the 90's... which is to say, still pretty bad-- and most notably, it's a universe of difference from being a worker's hero or whatever- and I'm not a fan of the typical liberal critiques, but anyone taking a half-arsed look at the state of the country can see it's ruling class is not progressive. It merely clings to presenting some Soviet hints then and now to satisfy nationalism.

[Spartacus.]

(1) Wow dude nice using the US government as an example of a government which is the same. If you haven't checked, folks on this forum who you call "ultra left" and "liberal" criticize US and EU government abuses too.

Folks on this forum, like yourself, are more concerned with spitting on every anti-imperialist government that is the target of US regime-change efforts, than criticizing their own crypto-fascist regimes. Not to mention the fact that they are parroting every lie and slander that they read in notoriously "reliable" US corporate media. The problem with people like you is that you are always eager to attack the governments that are on the US offcial enemies list, but when it comes to US allies you are pathetically silent about their crimes. I have noticed that you have some times ago also attacked Iran, now you are switching to the Belarus, and in the future you will probably target Zimbabwe and Venezuela. Why don't you instead focus on US crimes in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and elsewhere, or crimes of US puppets like Colombia, Turkey, Israel, Sri Lanka, Indonesia and etc? Or the crimes of US puppets in Europe, like the government of my country? But I suppose the spineless people can only condemn those governments that are proclaimed outposts of tyranny by US Department of Propaganda and in that way satisfy their feeling of being "progressive" :rolleyes:, while at the same time staying safely inside the limits of imperial-dominated world. It is simply pathetical...


(2) Do you have any evidence of these "paid agents"? If you have proof that they are paid CIA agents trying to overthrow the government then you can try and convict them with that evidence instead of beating them up at a protest. You know, innocent before proven guilty, court of laws, etc

Do I have evidence? As much as you want...

-The US State Department last year provided funding to five opposition parties and 566 opposition activists, and support and training to over 70 civil society organizations, 71 antigovernment journalists and 21 opposition media outlets in Belarus. On top of that, 900 Belarusian youth were enrolled tuition-free at US government-expense at the European Humanities University. The university is an alternative to Belarusian state schools which the US government condemns for failing to “support the country’s transformation to a free-market democracy.” (1)

-To oust Lukashenko and his socialist-leaning policies, the US government set out to mold a disparate group of opposition parties and activists into a single, coherent unit, guided by a single executive with authority to enforce common goals and strategy. The international arm of the Republican Party, the IRI, has assumed a leadership role in focusing “primarily on the process of consolidating and unifying all of the pro-democratic elements in the country into a single coalition.” (2)

-The UDF (United Democratic Forces) comprises 10 opposition parties and more than 200 NGOs. In 2005, the coalition selected Alexander Milinkevich as its candidate for president. Terry Nelson, national political director of the 2004 Bush-Cheney campaign, practically ran Milinkevich’s 2006 campaign, according to The New York Times. (3)

-The US government also provides “extensive support, grant making, leadership and capacity building to over 60 indigenous NGOS.” The US State Department, PACT and the NDI have assisted 60 NGOs in various ways, purchasing goods and services for the organizations, setting up cross-border exchanges with other NGOs, offering advice on strategic planning, and doling out over 40 grants. To strengthen connections among NGOs, the sponsors established a Leadership Fellows Program, to build leadership skills among members of the anti-Lukashenko opposition. (4)

-The Republican Party has been heavily involved in nurturing Belarus’s opposition, meeting frequently with its key activists. In April 2005, US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice held meetings in Lithuania with members of the opposition, discussing the use of “mass pressure for change,” (5)and pledging $5 million in backing, to be provided through the IRI. (6)

-The IRI hosted a delegation of opposition activists over eight days in December, 2007. The delegation had private meetings with Rice and a nearly one-hour meeting with US President Bush, after which each delegate had his photograph taken with the president. The IRI also arranged for the delegation to meet with the Washington Post editorial board, to answer questions on a Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty call-in show beamed into Belarus, and set up radio and television interviews with the official US overseas propaganda service, Voice of America. (7)

-This came on the heels on another UDF visit to Washington hosted by the IRI from February 26 to March 2. On this trip, delegates met with State Department, White House, and Congressional officials, and shared their points of view with the media, including The Washington Post, Voice of America and Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty. In its meetings with US officials, the delegation expressed its gratitude “for the support of the US government.” (8)


-(1)United States Department of State, “Belarus 2007 Performance Report,” November 16, 2007. http://pdf.usaid.gov/pdf_docs/PDACL044.pdf

-(2)Remarks by Stephen B. Nix, Director of Eurasia Program, International Republican Institute, Conference on European Union and Democracy Assistance, Center for European Studies, the University of Florida, March 30, 2007, http://www.iri.org/eurasia/belarus/2007-03-30-Belarus.asp

-(3)“Bringing Down Europe’s Last Ex-Soviet Dictator,” New York Times, February 26, 2006.

-(4)United States Department of State, “Belarus 2007 Performance Report,” November 16, 2007. http://pdf.usaid.gov/pdf_docs/PDACL044.pdf

-(5)The New York Times, April 22, 2005.

-(6)Xinhua News Agency, May 13, 2005.

-(7)“IRI Host Belarusian Democratic Leaders,” IRI News Release, December 12, 2007. http://www.iri.org/eurasia/belarus/2007-12-12-Belarus.asp

-(8)“IRI Host Belarusian Democratic Leaders,” IRI News Release, March 9, 2007. http://www.iri.org/eurasia/belarus/2007-03-09-Belarus.asp

Basically, they are nothing more than filthy fifth-columnists willing to sell their country to multi-national corporations, and as such they deserve no mercy whatsoever. The fact that they are allowed to freely roam and propagate their free-market doctrine, with occasional conflcts with police (which are initiated by them), is a proof of totally uneccessary tolerance on the part of Belarus. I wonder what would have happened if Belarus started chanelling 100's of millions of dollars to Freedom Road Socialist Organization or some other Communist group? :confused: Oh wait, FRSO is already being repressed with no good reason in the so-called "stronghold of democracy"!!! :lol::lol::lol:


http://mikeely.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/soviet-prisoner-labor.jpg


(3) Did you not read the article? The Belarussian working class is protesting the same kind of cuts in living standards you're mentioning in other Eastern European countries. Their government is not paying the working class. Lukashenko may have staved off some of the suffering after the fall of the USSR but he is now facing the crisis of Capitalism like all other bourgeois dictators. Massive inflation and stagnated and unpaid wages ... what a "working class hero".


Every country has its own problems. The Belarus economy is hurt, as every other country, by the economic crisis, and the sanctions that have been put on country by the western neo-fascist regimes. I don't see how is the government responsible for the problems in the country and how would the removal of Lukashenko improve the situation. Your comment is totally devoid of any substance.

As to the "suffering" of Belarus working class, the following article might be helpfull:



As he stepped off his plane at the Minsk airport two summers ago to begin a two-day visit to Belarus, Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez pointed to a connection between his country and that of his host, President Alexander Lukashenko. “Belarus,” he declared, “is a model of a social state, which we are also building.” (1) That Chavez’s model state exists in an infrequently remarked upon corner of Europe may be a surprise to most admirers of the Bolivarian Revolution.
Called Europe’s last dictator by Condoleezza Rice and a “brother in arms” by Chavez (2), Lukashenko oversees over a “socially-oriented market economy” in which 80 percent of the enterprises are state-owned and collective farms still feed the country.
He has “presided over a continual increase in real wages for several years…cut the (value added tax), brought down inflation, halved the number of people in poverty”…and created “the fairest distribution of incomes of any country in the region.” (3)
He has done “what the conventional wisdom in the West says is not possible: maintaining a state run economy with one of the strongest growth rates in Europe, generating increases in wages and pensions, boosting productivity and minimizing the disparities in wealth that have destabilized so many of the former Soviet republics in their transition to market economies.” (4)
What may be equally surprising to Chavez admirers is that Lukashenko has done all this by “steadily turn(ing) Belarus into a miniature version of the Soviet Union, with a state-run economy.” (5)
The only deputy of the Belarusian Soviet Socialist Republic to vote against the dissolution of the USSR in 1991, Lukashenko talks fondly of the Soviet Union — “my country,” he called it in 2005 before the UN General Assembly. (6) Statues of Lenin and busts of Stalin — some newly erected — can still be found in Belarus.
This hardly sits well with state officials in the West who accuse Lukashenko of stealing elections and smothering democracy – the usual charge leveled against leaders who haven’t signed on to the project of fattening the bottom lines of Western corporations and investment banks at the expense of their own people. Lukashenko wins elections by landslides because he is widely popular, and he’s widely popular because he puts the interests of Belarus’ people first.
So Washington and London fund subversion projects under the guise of promoting democracy, funneling millions of dollars to youth groups, anti-Lukashenko media and opposition parties to bring down the government. The New York Times remarked that in the last presidential election the US and British-backed opposition “seemed not to be running an election campaign, as much as they (were) trying to organize an uprising.” (7)
The opposition failed miserably, both at the polls and in the streets.
Check out Stewart Parker’s new book, The Last Soviet Republic: Alexander Lukashenko’s Belarus (http://www.belarussolidaritycampaign.co.uk/ (http://www.belarussolidaritycampaign.co.uk/)) as well as “Belarus struggles to defend workers’ interests” in the latest issue of Proletarian http://www.cpgb-ml.org/index.php?secName=proletarian&subName=display&art=338 (http://www.cpgb-ml.org/index.php?secName=proletarian&subName=display&art=338).
Both go a long way to setting the record straight on the hold-out Soviet republic Chavez calls a model of a social state.


http://gowans.wordpress.com/2007/10/11/a-model-social-state/


(4) Sorry what is progressive/socialist about beating up or arresting protesters and not paying your workers?

They were not arrested because they were protesting, but because they were attacking police. Belarus "protesters" are nothing more than a bunch of US mercenaries that gather every once and while and create "incidents" in which a few of them get a couple of bruises and got arrested, after which they start screaming about "repressive" and "authoritarian" Belarussian dictator and calling for his removal and replacement with a neo-liberal hellhole. US is also arresting protesters, I dont see you calling for the removal of totalitarian dictator Obama...


EDIT some other interesting things about this "Progressive" and "Socialist" leader: LGBT_rights_in_Belarus

Lukashenko is not a god, or some omnipotent dictator. He is just an elected president that is tasked with carrying out people's will. Now, I suppose that you don't know much about Eastern Europe, but homosexuals are not looked to kindly by the majority of population (I don't have anything against them, just to be clear), who consider them sick people. So, basically, even if Lukashenko would have liked to turn Belarus into gay-heaven, he would be prevented by popular opinion that is greatly biased against that. And, if he wants to keep popularity (he is, by all accounts, the most popular politician in Belarus), he needs to appeal to his audience, not to some utopian values that are not accepted by the majority of population. Fidel Castro during his early years has sent gays to the prison camps. Is that a reason to support the destruction of socialist Cuba? Your argument is nothing else but the ultra-leftist crying over Belarus not being your perfect and ideal society. Grow up...


trade unions

Belarus has extremely low unemployment (1,5%), free healthcare and education, great social service system and quite a low poverty rate in comparision with Russia and Ukraine, so basically I couldn't care less if they have forbidden some trade unions, or if they interfere in the work of some other, or if they require high membership rates for legal work. I'm not an ultra-leftist that is digging through internet in order to find a little "dirt" that can be thrown at some proggressive government, just to keep satisfed my feeling of being a "sharp" critic. If you want to criticise something, go and attack US genocides in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya. Criticising Belarus for banning a few trade unions and ignoring the imperialist crimes, is like attackng Jews for having anti-gay attitudes, while ignoring the Holocaust that is taking place. You are a fucking joke...


Anti-semitism

Do you have any reliable reference to this Lukashenko speech on Hitler? Interview in original Russian would be welcome. I don't trust Wkipedia garbage... :rolleyes:

As to the Lukashenko alleged "anti-semitism", how are you going to explain this:


Following the trend of previous years, antisemitism in Belarus declined even further in 2000/1.


The legal authorities announced that the perpetrators had been arrested in the first half of 2001 and would be tried on criminal charges.


Officials of the Belarus government, including President Lukashenko, have repeatedly expressed their support for the Jewish population of the country.


In a speech in Minsk on 10 July 2000, he promised to fight racism and antisemitism.


On 24 May 2000, the government press commission issued a warning to publishers of the mass media who regularly print antisemitic articles. The newspapers included Nasha niva (Our Wheatfield), Narodnaia volia (People’s Freedom) and the Belarus Commercial Newspaper.

http://www.tau.ac.il/Anti-Semitism/asw2000-1/belarus.htm

Btw, the majority of newspapers that have been "repressed" by Lukashenko were those like Nasha Niva, that regularly print Anti-semitic articles. So, when Lukashenko allows such thing, he is an Anti-semite. When he forbids them, he is a repressive dictator. Basically, it is impossible to please ultra-leftist whackoes...


http://gowans.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/mugabe-lukashenko-chavez2.jpg


Three most hated "dictators" on the US hit-list. :D

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Folks on this forum, like yourself, are more concerned with spitting on every anti-imperialist government that is the target of US regime-change efforts, than criticizing their own crypto-fascist regimes. Not to mention the fact that they are parroting every lie and slander that they read in notoriously "reliable" US corporate media. The problem with people like you is that you are always eager to attack the governments that are on the US offcial enemies list, but when it comes to US allies you are pathetically silent about their crimes. I have noticed that you have some times ago also attacked Iran, now you are switching to the Belarus, and in the future you will probably target Zimbabwe and Venezuela. Why don't you instead focus on US crimes in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and elsewhere, or crimes of US puppets like Colombia, Turkey, Israel, Sri Lanka, Indonesia and etc? Or the crimes of US puppets in Europe, like the government of my country? But I suppose the spineless people can only condemn those governments that are proclaimed outposts of tyranny by US Department of Propaganda and in that way satisfy their feeling of being "progressive" :rolleyes:, while at the same time staying safely inside the limits of imperial-dominated world. It is simply pathetical...


I do criticize Iran and Zimbabwe. One is a repressive theocracy the other is a repressive autocracy. Iran actually executes homosexuals and stones women to death. Mugabe, aside from being a violent authoritarian, is a rabid homophobe and has repeatedly demolished slums without ever bothering to give sufficient support to the former slumdwellers. Zimbabwe and Iran should be criticized for these reactionary policies, and I am also critical of unreasonable American efforts to topple these governments. I have my issues with Venezuela but find me a thread where I say anything quite so critical about their government.

I'm much more interested in (a) the economy/society of Belarus and (b) the nature of the protesters than this stupid ad hominem nonsense. I do post things about American crimes-just because you're not aware of it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I also have been to protests against US policy or abuse of workers in the US ... which IMO is much more important than anything posted on some leftwing forum on some lost corner of the internet ... you don't know me as a person, so its totally inappropriate for you to judge to be quite frank.


This really isn't pertinent to the discussion however if you want to talk about Iran or Zimbabwe it can be done in those threads.


Basically, they are nothing more than filthy fifth-columnists willing to sell their country to multi-national corporations, and as such they deserve no mercy whatsoever. The fact that they are allowed to freely roam and propagate their free-market doctrine, with occasional conflcts with police (which are initiated by them), is a proof of totally uneccessary tolerance on the part of Belarus. I wonder what would have happened if Belarus started chanelling 100's of millions of dollars to Freedom Road Socialist Organization or some other Communist group? :confused: Oh wait, FRSO is already being repressed with no good reason in the so-called "stronghold of democracy"!!! :lol::lol::lol:I see so because some opposition protests are foreign financed, then all such protests against the government deserve to be violently repressed? We all know that the US supports presidential candidates, NGOs etc, but what about these particular protesters? These facts are not relevant to this particular case. Are all the protesters part of the US backed opposition? Too often in history have authoritarian governments used outside support of protests as an excuse to mistreat legitimate protest movements and to ignore the problems in general which lead to the protests.

And again, I am not upholding the USA as an example of equality.


Every country has its own problems. The Belarus economy is hurt, as every other country, by the economic crisis, and the sanctions that have been put on country by the western neo-fascist regimes. I don't see how is the government responsible for the problems in the country and how would the removal of Lukashenko improve the situation. Your comment is totally devoid of any substance.

As to the "suffering" of Belarus working class, the following article might be helpfull:Devoid of substance? The working class isn't getting paid ... you know, people who have to feed their children. That's substantive. If you have economic analysis instead of ad hominem attacks to explain the situation perhaps I might agree with you. But until then it looks pretty bad ... the government is failing to find money to pay the working class while finding money to finance military parades. It is true that Belarus managed to keep an effective welfare net for some time, and for that it can deserve some praise, but if Lukashenko was unable to build a sustainable economic model it will all go to waste.

As for Hugo Chavez ... he does some good things domestically but I don't support everything he does or believes. Just because he thinks Belarus is some utopia it doesn't mean it is.


They were not arrested because they were protesting, but because they were attacking police. Belarus "protesters" are nothing more than a bunch of US mercenaries that gather every once and while and create "incidents" in which a few of them get a couple of bruises and got arrested, after which they start screaming about "repressive" and "authoritarian" Belarussian dictator and calling for his removal and replacement with a neo-liberal hellhole. US is also arresting protesters, I dont see you calling for the removal of totalitarian dictator Obama...
The implication of this whole protest according to the stories in the press was that it was non-confrontational. If you have evidence that this particular protest was actually confrontational it would be nice to see. An article directly related to this particular protest.


Lukashenko is not a god, or some omnipotent dictator. He is just an elected president that is tasked with carrying out people's will. Now, I suppose that you don't know much about Eastern Europe, but homosexuals are not looked to kindly by the majority of population (I don't have anything against them, just to be clear), who consider them sick people. So, basically, even if Lukashenko would have liked to turn Belarus into gay-heaven, he would be prevented by popular opinion that is greatly biased against that. And, if he wants to keep popularity (he is, by all accounts, the most popular politician in Belarus), he needs to appeal to his audience, not to some utopian values that are not accepted by the majority of population. Fidel Castro during his early years has sent gays to the prison camps. Is that a reason to support the destruction of socialist Cuba? Your argument is nothing else but the ultra-leftist crying over Belarus not being your perfect and ideal society. Grow up...
Fidel Castro actually had the cajones to admit they were wrong. And he wasn't anti-gay for some pragmatic reason, he was anti-gay because Stalinists used to think homosexuality was a bourgeois condition. This was a dumb belief pushed by the USSR that unfortunately most leftist states adopted.

As for the popular misconceptions of Belarus, that is not the best reason. If he had only recently taken power and his rule were still shaky, and he had other priorities to attend to, such an argument might make sense, but he has been in for 15 years. You will find most societies are a little reactionary in some ways, and if his society is too reactionary to allow a gay pride parade or other even token aspects of equality, it is his duty to educate his people. If he is really as popular independently of the issues you raise, then his government would not collapse pushing for more gay rights. If his popularity is really dependent on reactionary issues like his views on homosexuality, that is not a very good argument in favor of his government.

By your standard, we could have Segregation Socialism in 1950s America. There would never be change on social problems because governments would merely mirror the reactionary bullshit believed by the common people of their nations.


Btw, the majority of newspapers that have been "repressed" by Lukashenko were those like Nasha Niva, that regularly print Anti-semitic articles. So, when Lukashenko allows such thing, he is an Anti-semite. When he forbids them, he is a repressive dictator. Basically, it is impossible to please ultra-leftist whackoes...
I didn't say anything about his repression of the Press. I was saying he cracked down too violently on these particular protesters, and has a state which is unable to pay the working class of its factories.

As for the Hitler quote:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3881341.stm

Perhaps you are right about the antisemitism but the quote about Hitler is still bad. It's the kind of thing Laars von Trier would say to ruin his own career.

[Threetune]

A great rebuttal Spartacus, nice work indeed. I know you understand that it won’t make the slightest bit of difference to the OP’s habit of trawling the net compiling these stories, but whatever anyone says to try and make light of this rebuttal or cover-up or take the piss in the usual ways, it is going to make some at least look twice at any further original posts like this one.

[danyboy27]

A great rebuttal Spartacus, nice work indeed. I know you understand that it won’t make the slightest bit of difference to the OP’s habit of trawling the net compiling these stories, but whatever anyone says to try and make light of this rebuttal or cover-up or take the piss in the usual ways, it is going to make some at least look twice at any further original posts like this one.

if you want to lick his ass, just do what the normal folks and send a PM.

[Marxach-Léinínach]

Wait, what? I thought Georgia is a wannabe-puppet of the European Union, not of Russia

Yeah I'm meaning its the major puppet state around there, and its of the west not of Russia

[Leftsolidarity]

Can we PLEASE start a policy of ignoring Threetune's posts? All he ever does is repeat his same shot down arguments over and over again hoping that if we read his nonsense enough times it will some how make sense.

But anyways, just like has been said before I don't get why if someone posts an article that is against some foreign dictator they are suddenly pro-imperialist and a liberal. Can't we be anti-imperialist and anti-dictatorship? Or did those things suddenly become mutually exclusive without me getting the memo?

[Marxach-Léinínach]

But anyways, just like has been said before I don't get why if someone posts an article that is against some foreign dictator they are suddenly pro-imperialist and a liberal. Can't we be anti-imperialist and anti-dictatorship? Or did those things suddenly become mutually exclusive without me getting the memo?

"We should oppose whatever our enemies support and support whatever our enemies oppose"

[Os Cangaceiros]

"We should oppose whatever our enemies support and support whatever our enemies oppose"

That logic doesn't have a great track record.

[Leftsolidarity]

"We should oppose whatever our enemies support and support whatever our enemies oppose"
"durrrrrrrppppppppp"

[danyboy27]

"We should oppose whatever our enemies support and support whatever our enemies oppose"

vote ron paul!

[Revy]

Lukashenko praised Hitler and some jokesters on here continue to defend him. Well, it's not like they defend any different kind of leader. If Hitler existed today and was opposed by the US, no doubt they would defend him. They argue, forget what this dictator does to his people, to minorities like LGBT people, to workers....we think there's a strategic value in our fake "anti-imperialism" in writing pathetic little articles "in defense of" dictatorships! Yeah, that is what matters!

[Marxach-Léinínach]

Somehow I doubt the leader of a country that had a third of its population killed by the Nazis is gonna have a good opinion of Hitler :rolleyes:

[bailey_187]

ITT: the weirdos with a hardon for Lukashenko simply respond to legitimate criticism of him by telling communists other bourgeois states are just as bad. great work guys lol, top class debating strategy.

[danyboy27]

Somehow I doubt the leader of a country that had a third of its population killed by the Nazis is gonna have a good opinion of Hitler :rolleyes:


why not?

[bailey_187]

Somehow I doubt the leader of a country that had a third of its population killed by the Nazis is gonna have a good opinion of Hitler :rolleyes:

i know, i mean, its not like other places in Eastern Europe which suffered under Nazi Occupation have any sort of Nazi sympethisers these days

[Revy]

Folks on this forum, like yourself, are more concerned with spitting on every anti-imperialist government that is the target of US regime-change efforts, than criticizing their own crypto-fascist regimes. Not to mention the fact that they are parroting every lie and slander that they read in notoriously "reliable" US corporate media. The problem with people like you is that you are always eager to attack the governments that are on the US offcial enemies list, but when it comes to US allies you are pathetically silent about their crimes. I have noticed that you have some times ago also attacked Iran, now you are switching to the Belarus, and in the future you will probably target Zimbabwe and Venezuela. Why don't you instead focus on US crimes in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and elsewhere, or crimes of US puppets like Colombia, Turkey, Israel, Sri Lanka, Indonesia and etc? Or the crimes of US puppets in Europe, like the government of my country? But I suppose the spineless people can only condemn those governments that are proclaimed outposts of tyranny by US Department of Propaganda and in that way satisfy their feeling of being "progressive" :rolleyes:, while at the same time staying safely inside the limits of imperial-dominated world. It is simply pathetical...



Do I have evidence? As much as you want...

-The US State Department last year provided funding to five opposition parties and 566 opposition activists, and support and training to over 70 civil society organizations, 71 antigovernment journalists and 21 opposition media outlets in Belarus. On top of that, 900 Belarusian youth were enrolled tuition-free at US government-expense at the European Humanities University. The university is an alternative to Belarusian state schools which the US government condemns for failing to “support the country’s transformation to a free-market democracy.” (1)

-To oust Lukashenko and his socialist-leaning policies, the US government set out to mold a disparate group of opposition parties and activists into a single, coherent unit, guided by a single executive with authority to enforce common goals and strategy. The international arm of the Republican Party, the IRI, has assumed a leadership role in focusing “primarily on the process of consolidating and unifying all of the pro-democratic elements in the country into a single coalition.” (2)

-The UDF (United Democratic Forces) comprises 10 opposition parties and more than 200 NGOs. In 2005, the coalition selected Alexander Milinkevich as its candidate for president. Terry Nelson, national political director of the 2004 Bush-Cheney campaign, practically ran Milinkevich’s 2006 campaign, according to The New York Times. (3)

-The US government also provides “extensive support, grant making, leadership and capacity building to over 60 indigenous NGOS.” The US State Department, PACT and the NDI have assisted 60 NGOs in various ways, purchasing goods and services for the organizations, setting up cross-border exchanges with other NGOs, offering advice on strategic planning, and doling out over 40 grants. To strengthen connections among NGOs, the sponsors established a Leadership Fellows Program, to build leadership skills among members of the anti-Lukashenko opposition. (4)

-The Republican Party has been heavily involved in nurturing Belarus’s opposition, meeting frequently with its key activists. In April 2005, US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice held meetings in Lithuania with members of the opposition, discussing the use of “mass pressure for change,” (5)and pledging $5 million in backing, to be provided through the IRI. (6)

-The IRI hosted a delegation of opposition activists over eight days in December, 2007. The delegation had private meetings with Rice and a nearly one-hour meeting with US President Bush, after which each delegate had his photograph taken with the president. The IRI also arranged for the delegation to meet with the Washington Post editorial board, to answer questions on a Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty call-in show beamed into Belarus, and set up radio and television interviews with the official US overseas propaganda service, Voice of America. (7)

-This came on the heels on another UDF visit to Washington hosted by the IRI from February 26 to March 2. On this trip, delegates met with State Department, White House, and Congressional officials, and shared their points of view with the media, including The Washington Post, Voice of America and Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty. In its meetings with US officials, the delegation expressed its gratitude “for the support of the US government.” (8)


-(1)United States Department of State, “Belarus 2007 Performance Report,” November 16, 2007. http://pdf.usaid.gov/pdf_docs/PDACL044.pdf

-(2)Remarks by Stephen B. Nix, Director of Eurasia Program, International Republican Institute, Conference on European Union and Democracy Assistance, Center for European Studies, the University of Florida, March 30, 2007, http://www.iri.org/eurasia/belarus/2007-03-30-Belarus.asp

-(3)“Bringing Down Europe’s Last Ex-Soviet Dictator,” New York Times, February 26, 2006.

-(4)United States Department of State, “Belarus 2007 Performance Report,” November 16, 2007. http://pdf.usaid.gov/pdf_docs/PDACL044.pdf

-(5)The New York Times, April 22, 2005.

-(6)Xinhua News Agency, May 13, 2005.

-(7)“IRI Host Belarusian Democratic Leaders,” IRI News Release, December 12, 2007. http://www.iri.org/eurasia/belarus/2007-12-12-Belarus.asp

-(8)“IRI Host Belarusian Democratic Leaders,” IRI News Release, March 9, 2007. http://www.iri.org/eurasia/belarus/2007-03-09-Belarus.asp

Basically, they are nothing more than filthy fifth-columnists willing to sell their country to multi-national corporations, and as such they deserve no mercy whatsoever. The fact that they are allowed to freely roam and propagate their free-market doctrine, with occasional conflcts with police (which are initiated by them), is a proof of totally uneccessary tolerance on the part of Belarus. I wonder what would have happened if Belarus started chanelling 100's of millions of dollars to Freedom Road Socialist Organization or some other Communist group? :confused: Oh wait, FRSO is already being repressed with no good reason in the so-called "stronghold of democracy"!!! :lol::lol::lol:


http://mikeely.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/soviet-prisoner-labor.jpg



Every country has its own problems. The Belarus economy is hurt, as every other country, by the economic crisis, and the sanctions that have been put on country by the western neo-fascist regimes. I don't see how is the government responsible for the problems in the country and how would the removal of Lukashenko improve the situation. Your comment is totally devoid of any substance.

As to the "suffering" of Belarus working class, the following article might be helpfull:



http://gowans.wordpress.com/2007/10/11/a-model-social-state/



They were not arrested because they were protesting, but because they were attacking police. Belarus "protesters" are nothing more than a bunch of US mercenaries that gather every once and while and create "incidents" in which a few of them get a couple of bruises and got arrested, after which they start screaming about "repressive" and "authoritarian" Belarussian dictator and calling for his removal and replacement with a neo-liberal hellhole. US is also arresting protesters, I dont see you calling for the removal of totalitarian dictator Obama...



Lukashenko is not a god, or some omnipotent dictator. He is just an elected president that is tasked with carrying out people's will. Now, I suppose that you don't know much about Eastern Europe, but homosexuals are not looked to kindly by the majority of population (I don't have anything against them, just to be clear), who consider them sick people. So, basically, even if Lukashenko would have liked to turn Belarus into gay-heaven, he would be prevented by popular opinion that is greatly biased against that. And, if he wants to keep popularity (he is, by all accounts, the most popular politician in Belarus), he needs to appeal to his audience, not to some utopian values that are not accepted by the majority of population. Fidel Castro during his early years has sent gays to the prison camps. Is that a reason to support the destruction of socialist Cuba? Your argument is nothing else but the ultra-leftist crying over Belarus not being your perfect and ideal society. Grow up...



Belarus has extremely low unemployment (1,5%), free healthcare and education, great social service system and quite a low poverty rate in comparision with Russia and Ukraine, so basically I couldn't care less if they have forbidden some trade unions, or if they interfere in the work of some other, or if they require high membership rates for legal work. I'm not an ultra-leftist that is digging through internet in order to find a little "dirt" that can be thrown at some proggressive government, just to keep satisfed my feeling of being a "sharp" critic. If you want to criticise something, go and attack US genocides in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya. Criticising Belarus for banning a few trade unions and ignoring the imperialist crimes, is like attackng Jews for having anti-gay attitudes, while ignoring the Holocaust that is taking place. You are a fucking joke...



Do you have any reliable reference to this Lukashenko speech on Hitler? Interview in original Russian would be welcome. I don't trust Wkipedia garbage... :rolleyes:

As to the Lukashenko alleged "anti-semitism", how are you going to explain this:











http://www.tau.ac.il/Anti-Semitism/asw2000-1/belarus.htm

Btw, the majority of newspapers that have been "repressed" by Lukashenko were those like Nasha Niva, that regularly print Anti-semitic articles. So, when Lukashenko allows such thing, he is an Anti-semite. When he forbids them, he is a repressive dictator. Basically, it is impossible to please ultra-leftist whackoes...


http://gowans.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/mugabe-lukashenko-chavez2.jpg


Three most hated "dictators" on the US hit-list. :D

What's your point? You like Mugabe too?

Mugabe sent his "Fifth Brigade" (trained by the DPRK) around and slaughtered the Ndebele people. Anywhere from 10,000 to 60,000 of the Ndebele people were murdered in a genocide. African liberator? More like mass murderer. And that was with the help of Eternal President Kim Il-sung, who jumped at the chance to help Mugabe in his genocidal mission. As we see time and time again, rather than any kind of "socialism" these kind of scumbags (Lukashenko and Mugabe ) offer, it is more like "national socialism" in its hatred and in its oppression.

Zimbabwe is in economic ruin because of Mugabe's capitalism.

And of course there's his rabid homophobia. None of you care enough to criticize the homophobia of all your favorite little dictators. Then again, all these dictators are racist too (Ceausescu hated gays AND Hungarians) so....I guess I shouldn't expect much from you in the first place....

Did you know that Lukashenko, in addition to praising Hitler, said that Jews are dirty and even used the word "pigsty" (comparing them to swine?)? Oh what am I doing. Even if he was yelling it through a megaphone right at you, you'd still bow before him.

"This is a Jewish city, and the Jews are not concerned for the place they live in. They have turned Bobruisk into a pigsty." - Alexander Lukashenko, your hero.

[Spartacus.]

Lukashenko praised Hitler and some jokesters on here continue to defend him. Well, it's not like they defend any different kind of leader. If Hitler existed today and was opposed by the US, no doubt they would defend him. They argue, forget what this dictator does to his people, to minorities like LGBT people, to workers....we think there's a strategic value in our fake "anti-imperialism" in writing pathetic little articles "in defense of" dictatorships! Yeah, that is what matters!


In relation to the Hitler, no I would not defend him, considering that Nazi Germany was imperialist country itself, bent on conquering Europe for the sake of German capitalists, and was no better than US. So basically, your comparision between Belarus and Nazi Germany is totally flawed, considering the fact Belarus is a peacefull and egalitarian country. Your mentioning of Nazi Germany just shows that your debating skills are rudimentary and that you have to resort to silly emotional arguments and famous "guilt by association", in which you try to bash Lukashenko by associating his name with a symbol of absolute evil, Hitler.

As to the "pathetic little articles", you are free to try and write one such article, instead of making childlish comparisions with Hitler. But, I suppose it is much easier to throw around pathetic, little arguments about "dictators", that are just showing that you have watched too much FoxNews. What are you trying to do? Imitate George Bush???? :lol:

I think Threetune is right. "Disscusing" things with teenage wanabee "communists" that are suffering from identity crisis, so they have dicided to become liberal commies that are parroting FoxNews and Bush bullshit about Lukashenko is really pointless. Why wasting time... :rolleyes:

[Marxach-Léinínach]

i know, i mean, its not like other places in Eastern Europe which suffered under Nazi Occupation have any sort of Nazi sympethisers these days

Yeah you get the occasional mad fucker in Russia who like the Nazis but the large-scale fascist sympathising seems to be mostly in the Baltics and West Ukraine

[Leftsolidarity]

considering the fact Belarus is a peacefull and egalitarian country.....

.........I think Threetune is right.

:blink::blushing::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laug h::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh ::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

I lol'd so hard I almost shit myself

[Crux]

So, basically, you can go to not very pleasant imaginary places (which I won't mention because I will be banned) with your crypto-fascist, burgeous propaganda about Belarus and Lukashenko. The people of former socialist countries are terribly suffering today and the last thing they need is some privileged upper middle class phoney communist liberal kid pissing them off with his libertarian propaganda because Lukashenko has arrested a few American paid agents that wish to undermine Belarus social system and people's welfare in the interests of US corporations. I'm just sick of ultra-leftists and their petit-burgeous idealism, and their habit of spitting on every proggressive or socialist government because it doesn't fullfill their ideals and dreams of perfect society.
Yeah, shame on you for critisizing president Obama! Why do you have to be so negative about this very progressive president? Are you by any chance a secret Republican agent? Or maybe you are one of them starry eyed idealists? Don't you realize we must settle for that which is?

[/end sarcasm]

So yeah, Lukashenko? Really? Yeah, who's the fucking phoney.

[Crux]

Yeah you get the occasional mad fucker in Russia who like the Nazis but the large-scale fascist sympathising seems to be mostly in the Baltics and West Ukraine
Uhm, the nazi groups in russia are quite large, quite deadly and quite active. In addition to that it is hardly a coincidence that "nationalbolshevism" is a very russian form of fascism.

[Crux]

Fuck off with your western propaganda. Belarus is an independent state, it's Georgia that's the puppet state although of course I have no doubt you probably see it as lovely "liberal democracy" :rolleyes:
So post-USSR russia is your new model? Oh and also:
http://www.fotoblography.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/straw-man.jpg

Sorry but if you get to post a massive fucking strawman, so do I.

[Os Cangaceiros]

http://gowans.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/mugabe-lukashenko-chavez2.jpg


Mugabe looks like he's about to sneeze, while Chavez says "Quick! Get this man a tissue!"

[Le Socialiste]

Since when does it matter whether or not a country opposes U.S. imperialism? A dictatorship is a dictatorship no matter how you try to spin it. As revolutionary leftists, we must oppose the dictatorial policies and methods taken by any nation. And that includes Belarus and America. What's more, I can't believe people on here are defending Lukashenko. That man has left Belarus so reliant on Russian oil and gas that any semblance of "independence" has long since gone out the window. Belarus is, for all intents and purposes, merely an extension of Russian influence.

[Crux]

And economic crisis might spur much more popular discontent. Since spring, the national currency has lost 60% of its value - but while prices have shot up, wages remain the same. Many state-owned firms are short of cash and, according to some reports, have started to delay payments.
Even the state energy company failed to find enough hard currency to pay the $20m (£13m) bill for Russian electricity, prompting the Russian company to cut supplies.
That's a familiar experience for citizens in Minsk, who try to buy dollars, euros or even Russian roubles at currency exchange kiosks, to try to protect their savings, sometimes waiting a day or two.
It is those people who, according to internet activist Sergei, will join the protest in the next few weeks.
"Not many people care that there are political prisoners in Belarus, but economics touches everyone, and it's the state of the economy which will drive people out on the streets."
Oh and by the way, comrades, which side are you on? or nevermind that, threetune, spartacus and Marxach-Léinínach has already demonstrated this terrifically.

[Pretty Flaco]

considering the fact Belarus is a peacefull and egalitarian country

How about considering Belarus is a shithole. Lukashenko isn't leftist, anti-imperialist, or really much anything more than a power hungry asswipe.

Peaceful and egalitarian my ass!

[Per Levy]

considering the fact Belarus is a peacefull and egalitarian country.

so country where workers arnt paid, where homosexuals get discreminated by the state, where there are rich and poor is in fact "egalitarian". and a country that is breaking up peacful demonstrations with violence is in fact "peacful", interesting.

but hey, as you said "spartacus":


Basically, they are nothing more than filthy fifth-columnists willing to sell their country to multi-national corporations, and as such they deserve no mercy whatsoever
---

I think Threetune is right. "Disscusing" things with teenage wanabee "communists" that are suffering from identity crisis, so they have dicided to become liberal commies that are parroting FoxNews and Bush bullshit about Lukashenko is really pointless. Why wasting time... :rolleyes:

again interesting, i acutally thought you and threetune and the other guy would fit much more in the *teenage wanabee "communist"* section, since you seem so high on strong man dictators.
and again, strawman argument, anyone who isnt a bootlicker of lukashenkois of course a fox and bush fan.
last point: "liberal commies" yeah those guys are terrible, i mean they want the emancipation, freedom and rule of the working class, that is so "liberal" and we cant have that. everybody knows real commies want a strong man dictator on the top of a state in wich the workers have no power what so ever.

[bailey_187]

hey spartacus, i think people will stop criticising states on the US official enemies list when you stop getting a raging hard on for them, deal?

[Revy]

so country where workers arnt paid, where homosexuals get discreminated by the state, where there are rich and poor is in fact "egalitarian". and a country that is breaking up peacful demonstrations with violence is in fact "peacful", interesting.

but hey, as you said "spartacus":


---


again interesting, i acutally thought you and threetune and the other guy would fit much more in the *teenage wanabee "communist"* section, since you seem so high on strong man dictators.
and again, strawman argument, anyone who isnt a bootlicker of lukashenkois of course a fox and bush fan.
last point: "liberal commies" yeah those guys are terrible, i mean they want the emancipation, freedom and rule of the working class, that is so "liberal" and we cant have that. everybody knows real commies want a strong man dictator on the top of a state in wich the workers have no power what so ever.


Well, all he did was imply I watch Fox News and that I'm the same as George Bush. Which was just pathetic and laughable. Oh and he said I was a teenager. Well I don't know how he can tell age by my views. I'm too old to be called a teenager (I'm in my 20's) but it would be funny if he was a teenager himself. Even if he's an old guy, I'll take a bunch of teenagers with brains over someone who thinks Lukashenko is a peaceful and egalitarian guy and oh-so-wonderful and awesome, regardless of their age. Young =/= stupid. However, supporting Lukashenko is.

[danyboy27]

well, why is the belarussian governement cracking down on antisemitic newspaper? simple, they are developing ties with israel!
---------------
-----------

Lukashenko: Belarus-Israel relations are vigorously expanding

10.05.2011 13:08

MINSK, 10 May (BelTA) – On behalf of the Belarusian people and himself President of Belarus Alexander Lukashenko congratulated President of the State of Israel Shimon Peres, Prime Minister of the State of Israel Benjamin Netanyahu and the people of Israel on the national holiday – the Independence Day, BelTA learnt from the presidential press service.

In his address to Shimon Peres, the Belarusian President noted that Belarusian-Israeli relations are vigorously developing across all the areas. Alexander Lukashenko expressed confidence that the expansion of a high-level dialogue will boost the bilateral cooperation.

and what about this?
------------------------------
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Minsk to host Belarus-Israel business forum 20 June

16.06.2011 12:15

MINSK, 16 June (BelTA) – The Belarus-Israel business forum will take place in Minsk on 20 June. The forum is dedicated to the second session of the joint Belarus-Israel Trade and Economic Cooperation Committee, BelTA learned from the Belarusian Chamber of Commerce and Industry.

The business delegation of Israel will be led by Tourism Minister Stas Misezhnikov. The delegation will consist of IT businessmen, tourism, legal and consulting industries, representatives of companies which offer unique experience to organize production of qualitative agricultural goods in unfavorable climate conditions using minimal energy resources.

The forum is organized by the Belarusian Chamber of Commerce and Industry and the Federation of Trade Cambers of Israel with the assistance of Belarus’ Agriculture and Food Ministry, the Embassy of Israel in Belarus and the Embassy of Belarus in Israel.

first time ever i witness an anti-impies supporting a friend of israel.
Interresting.

EDIT: also:
---------------------------
---------------------------
Belarus welcomes growing cooperation with Israel

20.06.2011 14:40

MINSK, 20 June (BelTA) – The issues of Belarus-Israel bilateral cooperation were discussed at the second meeting of the joint Belarusian-Israeli intergovernmental committee on trade and economic cooperation held in Minsk on 20 June.

According to Minister of Agriculture and Food of Belarus Mikhail Rusy, over the past year and a half a lot has been done in the Belarusian-Israeli cooperation with the help of Belarusian and Israeli business, financial community, the two governments. In particular, new production facilities have been set up with the help of Israeli capital; Israeli insurance company has supported major projects in the poultry industry. The Belarusian side hopes to create more new enterprises, joint ventures in Belarus, to attract Israeli investment.

Israeli Tourism Minister Stas Misezhnikov praised the growth of trade between the two countries. In 2009, Israel’s exports to Belarus amounted to $8.4 million, in 2010 to $ 27.6 million. In January-April this year, exports were on the increase as compared with the same period last year. Belarus’ imports to Israel also increased in recent years, from $4.3 million in 2009 to $5.9 million in 2010. In January-April this year Belarus’ imports to Israel increased three times over the same period in 2010.

“I hope that soon we will be speaking not only about the growth of trade, but also the diversity of areas of mutually beneficial cooperation,” said Stas Misezhnikov. Israel’s major exports to Belarus are chemical fertilizers, plastics, food products. Belarus’ major import item is timber.

Belarus has implemented many projects with the help of Israeli experts in agriculture, food processing, trade, including wholesale trade and real estate.

“The number of Israeli businessmen who are interested in the Belarusian market is growing,” said Stas Misezhnikov. He added that the main areas of potential cooperation are high-tech, healthcare, rural tourism, response to emergency situations.

[danyboy27]

#Bump thread!

[manic expression]

In spite of many attempts, no one's really addressed the main points of many pro-Belarusian arguments. I see lots of "durrrrp lol" insults and about a metric ton of tangential rants (Zimbabwe even got a shout-out), but not much more than that. For instance, no I don't support Belarus having economic ties with Israel and quite to the contrary I oppose it, but what does that have to do with the topic at hand? Is it your objective to show that Belarus isn't perfect while studiously avoiding any semblance of a discussion on the relevant issues?

[Crux]

In spite of many attempts, no one's really addressed the main points of many pro-Belarusian arguments. I see lots of "durrrrp lol" insults and about a metric ton of tangential rants (Zimbabwe even got a shout-out), but not much more than that. For instance, no I don't support Belarus having economic ties with Israel and quite to the contrary I oppose it, but what does that have to do with the topic at hand? Is it your objective to show that Belarus isn't perfect while studiously avoiding any semblance of a discussion on the relevant issues?
The topic at hand being:

And economic crisis might spur much more popular discontent. Since spring, the national currency has lost 60% of its value - but while prices have shot up, wages remain the same. Many state-owned firms are short of cash and, according to some reports, have started to delay payments.
Even the state energy company failed to find enough hard currency to pay the $20m (£13m) bill for Russian electricity, prompting the Russian company to cut supplies.
That's a familiar experience for citizens in Minsk, who try to buy dollars, euros or even Russian roubles at currency exchange kiosks, to try to protect their savings, sometimes waiting a day or two.
It is those people who, according to internet activist Sergei, will join the protest in the next few weeks.
"Not many people care that there are political prisoners in Belarus, but economics touches everyone, and it's the state of the economy which will drive people out on the streets."

As I mentioned some in this thread have already demonstrated that they rather stand with the regime. In fact they have failed to even adress it.

[Jose Gracchus]

In spite of many attempts, no one's really addressed the main points of many pro-Belarusian arguments. I see lots of "durrrrp lol" insults and about a metric ton of tangential rants (Zimbabwe even got a shout-out), but not much more than that. For instance, no I don't support Belarus having economic ties with Israel and quite to the contrary I oppose it, but what does that have to do with the topic at hand? Is it your objective to show that Belarus isn't perfect while studiously avoiding any semblance of a discussion on the relevant issues?

Some people don't feel the need to give a dissertation to the deaf, while they take out the garbage. I'm rather coming around to that view.

[danyboy27]

In spite of many attempts, no one's really addressed the main points of many pro-Belarusian arguments. I see lots of "durrrrp lol" insults and about a metric ton of tangential rants (Zimbabwe even got a shout-out), but not much more than that. For instance, no I don't support Belarus having economic ties with Israel and quite to the contrary I oppose it, but what does that have to do with the topic at hand? Is it your objective to show that Belarus isn't perfect while studiously avoiding any semblance of a discussion on the relevant issues?

A lot of folks around here support the governement of belarus, i just wanted to hear what they have to say about that.
Personally, i think any governement making economical deal with a right-wing state like israel shouldnt be supported by the left, it just dosnt make sense.

Even tho i dont really agree with the models of venezuela, zimbabwe, or libya at least those regimes didnt launched commercial venture with the state of israel.

they have also made commercial deal with south korea, and guess what? venezuela and zimbabwe didnt.

Bunch of cappies with snappy uniforms, that what they are.

[bailey_187]

how exactly does a "workers state" have 35%inflation? i thought a planned economy eliminated inflation (outside of freak periods such as the civil war in russia)

also, for a supposedly "anti-imperialist" state, their relation to Russia is very questionable. Their economy relies largley on Russian help, and the cause of their problems right now are due to a decrease in russian subsidies. Russia has offered to rescue Belarus with credit if it privatises $7.5billion worth of assets. Without this help the economy of Belarus is going to collapse. So it seems Belarus is practicaly depdendent on Russia, with no chance of avoiding crisis with either subordinating to Russian interests, or u know, some sort of social change - maybe workers could try running society there?

[manic expression]

Once again, the main pro-Belarusian points are not addressed, and we see that the anti-Belarusian camp is even making excuses for a lack of coherent argument. And hey, Zimbabwe even got another mention.


Personally, i think any governement making economical deal with a right-wing state like israel shouldnt be supported by the left, it just dosnt make sense.
Again, that's something I criticize and object to heavily, but how does it follow that because of this the whole of Belarus needs to be condemned?

[bailey_187]

Once again, the main pro-Belarusian points are not addressed

i have not seen any beyond the fact that it falls on the wrong side of US foreign policy and that we who criticise are all just imperialist puppets

let me guess though, it keeps some features of the Soviet era, and has therefore escaped the worst of a return to capitalism. But Belarus suffers from 35%inflation workers wages and little savings are eaten up. And thats when the wages of public sector workers are actually paid. Imagine that lol, they supposedly "own" this industry, but dont get paid by it. Its HDI doesnt stand out as particularly high, and tbh is near other fromer Communist controlled states. Lithuania, Latvia, Montnegro, Serbia are all above it. I compare these states as they are all former Communist, and previously poorer parts of an economic union with other states (Slovenia and Croatia are also above, but were relativly prosperous regions, while Bulgaria and Romania, while poor regions too and above Belarus in the rankings did not suffer a break up as Belarus did). Is there anything good about these states though? of course not. Im just showing how Belarus does not stand out particularly. See Cuba can be criticised for some failings, but atleast it stands in HDI as compared to other similar countries in the region. Cuba has a system worth defending.

What else is there; resisting imperialism and foreign domination? Ah yeah, so thats why their economy is reliant on Russian subsidies (Russia is an imperialist power right?), and if Belarus happens to piss the Russians off, they will reduce them. Russia is now trying to force Belarus to privatise assets in order for a much needed credit line to save the economy from disaster (they have only a months worth of hard currency reserves for imports IIRC). But hey, i dont expect u to care if Belarus privatises assets, u can get behind China doing it too, so u know.

So basicaly your pro-Belarus (whatever that means), despite the fact that it ranks low on HDI for Europe like similar states in the region with similar history, has massive inflation, cant pay its workers, is dominated by and subordinate upon Russia....and thats even to mention the homophobia etc

nice :cool:

[bailey_187]

Again, that's something I criticize and object to heavily, but how does it follow that because of this the whole of Belarus needs to be condemned?

and how does state ownership of some industry and soviet imagery mean that Belarus is something progressive?(when looked at in more detail)

[manic expression]

let me guess though, it keeps some features of the Soviet era, and has therefore escaped the worst of a return to capitalism. But Belarus suffers from 35%inflation workers wages and little savings are eaten up. And thats when the wages of public sector workers are actually paid. Imagine that lol, they supposedly "own" this industry, but dont get paid by it. Its HDI doesnt stand out as particularly high, and tbh is near other fromer Communist controlled states. Lithuania, Latvia, Montnegro, Serbia are all above it.
Much of that inflation and economic difficulty has to do with sanctions that other countries don't have to deal with. However, as we'll see later, Belarus sees a solid standard of living for its situation.


What else is there; resisting imperialism and foreign domination? Ah yeah, so thats why their economy is reliant on Russian subsidies (Russia is an imperialist power right?), and if Belarus happens to piss the Russians off, they will reduce them.They have close ties with Russia, but that does not equal dependency. In fact, Belarus and Russia have been at odds on many issues in the past few years. And lastly, they're neighbors, of course they're going to have close economic ties if it's at all possible.


So basicaly your pro-Belarus (whatever that means), despite the fact that it ranks low on HDI for Europe like similar states in the region with similar history,I'm not sure what your source is, but this is definitely misleading, and basically wrong. Here's just one example (http://www2.pslweb.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=14929&news_iv_ctrl=1261) of why:

The strategy to financially isolate Belarus backfired. Not only did Belarus avert financial and social crisis, its economy flourished. From 1996 to 2004, the economy went through a steady period of expansion averaging an annual growth of 6.6 percent. (World Bank, “Belarus: Window of Opportunity to Enhance Competitiveness and Sustain Economic Growth,” November 2005) This growth persisted while the rest of the former Soviet republics experienced economic decline.

And another (http://belarus.110mb.com/analysis.html):

In 2006 real income (taking into account inflation and costs of living) rose by 17.3% on the previous year, whilst pensions rose by 13.4%. In 2007 the real income rose by 117.2% with pensions surpassing the levels throughout the region, and inflation dropping to only 3.2% (the lowest in the CIS).

And yet another (http://www.tvr.by/eng/society.asp?id=45079):

Expenses on housing make up 30% of family budget in Europe and in Italy they make 40%. Special housing funds are created to support households. It helps people to rationally plan their expenses. About 800,000 Belarusian families need better living conditions. Nevertheless our country is a leader in housing construction in the CIS. We are even ahead of such countries as France, Finland and Norway.

And again another (http://news.belta.by/en/news/society/?id=163886):

The infant mortality in Belarus is the lowest among the CIS countries, reads the world population report 2007 which was made public on June 27 by the United Nations Population Fund (UNFPA).

(snip)

Belarus is the only CIS country where all population has an access to improved drinking. In other CIS countries and some EU members (Bulgaria, Hungary, Latvia, Romania) the index ranges between 57% - 99%.

[bailey_187]

Much of that inflation and economic difficulty has to do with sanctions that other countries don't have to deal with. However, as we'll see later, Belarus sees a solid standard of living for its situation.

Maybe so. But you guys seem to always fall onto the "sanctions!" argument. yet when i asked how exactly sanctions in the DPRK translated into poor economic performance, it was not explained. Which sanctions are causing Belarus to experience how inflation and how exactly?



They have close ties with Russia, but that does not equal dependency. In fact, Belarus and Russia have been at odds on many issues in the past few years. And lastly, they're neighbors, of course they're going to have close economic ties if it's at all possible.

lol think belarus and russian relations are close simply due ot geography.

yeah, they have had increasingly bad relations, and as their assistance from russia has decreased, so too has its economy deteriorated. Atleast thats what The Economist (sorry, im such a liberal imperialist i am) has led me to to beleive. Maybe you have more indepth reporting in in Liberation and can inform me then, the reason for Belarus' current economic calamity? I know Lukashenko's raising of wages for public sector workers to increase popularity has led partly to the the inability of state industry to pay its workers, sorry, i mean "owners".



I'm not sure what your source is, but this is definitely misleading, and basically wrong.

Funny how standards change. HDI include education, health and GDP etc and is generally the way Cuba is shown to have acheived something. I can imagine u debating a right winger, showing him Cuba's good HDI data, and have Cuba's sluggish growth rate then thrown back at u. I do love you PSL guys, u go through a lot of effort to defend obscure states halfway around the world which really dont give a shit what a bunch of US students think.



The strategy to financially isolate Belarus backfired. Not only did Belarus avert financial and social crisis, its economy flourished. From 1996 to 2004, the economy went through a steady period of expansion averaging an annual growth of 6.6 percent. (World Bank, “Belarus: Window of Opportunity to Enhance Competitiveness and Sustain Economic Growth,” November 2005) This growth persisted while the rest of the former Soviet republics experienced economic decline.


Yeah, and this is due to its location between Russia and the EU and the incredibly cheap gas etc received frm Russia. Funny that the same time Belarus and Russia become friendly, and Russia started giving it subsidised oil and gas (due to Russia feeling surrounded by pro-NATO states) that the impressive growth rates take of.

but really look, GDP per capita is little more than Ukraine http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/85/Europe-GDP-PPP-per-capita-map.png




In 2006 real income (taking into account inflation and costs of living) rose by 17.3% on the previous year, whilst pensions rose by 13.4%. In 2007 the real income rose by 117.2% with pensions surpassing the levels throughout the region, and inflation dropping to only 3.2% (the lowest in the CIS).



Well, the mid 2000s seem like a good time for Belarus (who wernt they for tho?). Thanks Russia...





Expenses on housing make up 30% of family budget in Europe and in Italy they make 40%. Special housing funds are created to support households. It helps people to rationally plan their expenses. About 800,000 Belarusian families need better living conditions. Nevertheless our country is a leader in housing construction in the CIS. We are even ahead of such countries as France, Finland and Norway.



Nice. Good for them.





And again another (http://news.belta.by/en/news/society/?id=163886):

The infant mortality in Belarus is the lowest among the CIS countries, reads the world population report 2007 which was made public on June 27 by the United Nations Population Fund (UNFPA).

(snip)

Belarus is the only CIS country where all population has an access to improved drinking. In other CIS countries and some EU members (Bulgaria, Hungary, Latvia, Romania) the index ranges between 57% - 99%.

See, comparisons to CIS are very dishonest considering that the other members are not really comparable. The countries of central asia in the CIS are very different and have always been considerably poorer. The CIS isnt an economicly homogenous entity, its contructed purely on political lines, no economic similarities. As for this fact, good, im glad to see this. But this brings me to my final point.

We can find economic data looking at all different factors to show where Belarus fails and where it does well. Many relativly advanced economies have good points and bad points when looked at individualy. I think looking at something that encompases a range of factors into one is more reliable and useful than u scouring the interent for the facts that Belarus comes of well in. So, u "defend" and are "pro" Belarus because it has concentrated efforts on water, housing and secured in the past, good deals from Russia for cheap oil and gas, among other assistance? I can find other states arodun the world that have secured good deals and have seen positive results around the world too if u want, then u can add them to ur "defense" list.But then again, unless they are controversial to defend and like to call out the USA, u probably wont give a shit, because thats all ur politics is really. brb, finding facts on how well Latvia did since joining the EU......

[Thirsty Crow]

Oh gee, here's the modified-deformed-workers'-state guy.
Care to explain how does your theoretical ingenuity fit into the framework of the materialist conception of history?

[danyboy27]

Belarus is hardly in an unique situation, name me 1 country beside america that isnt a victim of a form of capitalist imperialism, just 1.

Everyone is affected by it, the africans, the asians, north american, south american eurpeans, everyone get shafted.

Peoples are so preoccupied with the american way of imperialism that they seem to forget that capitalism isnt inherently american, its a global system.

i have no doubt that the belarussian governement is victim of american pressure, and i have also no doubt that russia is doing pretty much the same thing by cutting natural gas and fuel to this small isolated country whenever they like.

in this whole ensemble of thing, the belarussian governement is part of the problem, and will do whatever necessary to protect the state at the expense of the freedom and liberty of others.

i guess you could justify such methods by saying its for the ''common good'', but one could also argues that killing the weak of society to provide more ressources to children and adults would be for the common good.

[Leftsolidarity]

Belarus is hardly in an unique situation, name me 1 country beside america that isnt a victim of a form of capitalist imperialism, just 1.



UK, Canada, France (?)

Idk it seems to me like those are not victims but people who utilize it.

[danyboy27]

UK, Canada, France (?)

Idk it seems to me like those are not victims but people who utilize it.

spending cut? austerity measures? neoliberal policies?

We are getting shafted too alright.

[Leftsolidarity]

spending cut? austerity measures? neoliberal policies?

We are getting shafted too alright.

Got the same thing here

[Tabarnack]

how exactly does a "workers state" have 35%inflation? i thought a planned economy eliminated inflation (outside of freak periods such as the civil war in russia)

also, for a supposedly "anti-imperialist" state, their relation to Russia is very questionable. Their economy relies largley on Russian help, and the cause of their problems right now are due to a decrease in russian subsidies. Russia has offered to rescue Belarus with credit if it privatises $7.5billion worth of assets. Without this help the economy of Belarus is going to collapse. So it seems Belarus is practicaly depdendent on Russia, with no chance of avoiding crisis with either subordinating to Russian interests, or u know, some sort of social change - maybe workers could try running society there?

So you believe that socialism is possible in one country, a small nation in the heart of western capitalism... at some point we have to put our idealism aside and have a clear perspective of what is possible today in the real world, and given the present circumstances the Belorussian regime is the best we can expect, the alternative is not a worker state but full integration in the western "free market" system with it's negative implications for workers and consolidation of western imperialism.

[bailey_187]

so basicaly a state that relies on Russian subsidies and doesnt pay its workers in the state sector is all the workers of Belarus can hope for?

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

Expenses on housing make up 30% of family budget in Europe and in Italy they make 40%. Special housing funds are created to support households. It helps people to rationally plan their expenses. About 800,000 Belarusian families need better living conditions. Nevertheless our country is a leader in housing construction in the CIS. We are even ahead of such countries as France, Finland and Norway.


Considering the fact that the aforementioned countries, like most of western Europe, has had very little housing construction apart from pointless luxury developments in the last 10-15 years, that's not hard to beat.

Has the housing stock been privatised in Belarus? I would not be surprised if at least a number of the new developments are like the ones in Russia; property speculation scams.

Also, has Lukashenko ever, at any time, suggested he was a socialist, even? I was under the impression he has never hidden his primarily nationalist and populist nature.

[manic expression]

Maybe so. But you guys seem to always fall onto the "sanctions!" argument. yet when i asked how exactly sanctions in the DPRK translated into poor economic performance, it was not explained. Which sanctions are causing Belarus to experience how inflation and how exactly?
It's not some marginal or convenient excuse, it's an intense handicap on any development.

The Belarusian ruble is under pressure and the economy was hit hard by oil tariffs, leading to fuel rationing and other economic restrictions.


http://www.upi.com/Top_News/Special/2011/06/21/Minsk-hit-with-more-sanctions/UPI-88821308665776/#ixzz1Re3YsqhF



lol think belarus and russian relations are close simply due ot geography.

yeah, they have had increasingly bad relations, and as their assistance from russia has decreased, so too has its economy deteriorated. Atleast thats what The Economist (sorry, im such a liberal imperialist i am) has led me to to beleive. Maybe you have more indepth reporting in in Liberation and can inform me then, the reason for Belarus' current economic calamity? I know Lukashenko's raising of wages for public sector workers to increase popularity has led partly to the the inability of state industry to pay its workers, sorry, i mean "owners".
First, if Belarus was magically moved to the west of New Guinea, it wouldn't have such close ties with Russia. So geography is a factor. Second, the rows between Belarus and Russia haven't as far as I know spilled into significant economic changes, so the causes of whatever economic stagnation (The Economist is always optimistic about defeat for its enemies) can't be laid primarily there.


Funny how standards change. HDI include education, health and GDP etc and is generally the way Cuba is shown to have acheived something. I can imagine u debating a right winger, showing him Cuba's good HDI data, and have Cuba's sluggish growth rate then thrown back at u. I do love you PSL guys, u go through a lot of effort to defend obscure states halfway around the world which really dont give a shit what a bunch of US students think.
What I'm saying is that if you do look at education and health, Belarus is quite exceptional in its situation. Again, I haven't seen your source on HDI but your conclusions on it don't jive with reality.


Yeah, and this is due to its location between Russia and the EU and the incredibly cheap gas etc received frm Russia. Funny that the same time Belarus and Russia become friendly, and Russia started giving it subsidised oil and gas (due to Russia feeling surrounded by pro-NATO states) that the impressive growth rates take of.
So wait, now it's about geography? Anyway, the oil and gas weren't subsidized out of the good of Russia's heart, it was beneficial to both parties. Belarus helps ship the stuff to the central European market that Russia wants to get a piece of.


but really look, GDP per capita is little more than Ukraine
GDP is a downright terrible way to measure living standards. I guess you'd say Qatar is the best country in the world, then, right?


Well, the mid 2000s seem like a good time for Belarus (who wernt they for tho?). Thanks Russia...
The mid 2000's were good for everyone? I'd like you to meet Iraq.


See, comparisons to CIS are very dishonest considering that the other members are not really comparable. The countries of central asia in the CIS are very different and have always been considerably poorer. The CIS isnt an economicly homogenous entity, its contructed purely on political lines, no economic similarities. As for this fact, good, im glad to see this. But this brings me to my final point.
I thought Russia was supposed to be indistinguishable from Belarus...


We can find economic data looking at all different factors to show where Belarus fails and where it does well. Many relativly advanced economies have good points and bad points when looked at individualy. I think looking at something that encompases a range of factors into one is more reliable and useful than u scouring the interent for the facts that Belarus comes of well in. So, u "defend" and are "pro" Belarus because it has concentrated efforts on water, housing and secured in the past, good deals from Russia for cheap oil and gas, among other assistance? I can find other states arodun the world that have secured good deals and have seen positive results around the world too if u want, then u can add them to ur "defense" list.But then again, unless they are controversial to defend and like to call out the USA, u probably wont give a shit, because thats all ur politics is really.
I defend Belarus because it's sustaining progressive aspects that were products of a working-class state. I defend Belarus because it has been resisting imperialism. I defend Belarus because its enemies, across the board, are clamoring to party like it's 1993. You may not care that hundreds upon hundreds of Belarusian kids will end up on the streets and that people will lose their jobs and that the healthcare system will end up in the toilet...but I do.


brb, finding facts on how well Latvia did since joining the EU......
Make sure you look up its homelessness numbers that dwarf Belarus'.


Care to explain how does your theoretical ingenuity fit into the framework of the materialist conception of history?
My analysis has everything to do with the material conditions as they are in Belarus. Look at the class dynamics surrounding the politics of the public sector vs privatization, of pro-NATO forces, of the position of the capitalist class in Belarus today in relation to the state and more...that's what I'm looking at.

[bailey_187]

lol what is this shit

Iraq? er.....ok maybe my point was lost on u, but in 2006, the world economy was generaly in an upward thrust. sure there exceptions like when bombs dropping on ur head.

look up the HDI, distiniguish between when geography isnt important and when it isnt. geography doesnt magicaly mean belarus has to spend between 1996 to a few years ago being a Russian client state. Geography can explain how it is possible, but it doesnt mean it has to e.g. Baltic states have rejected any Russian influence (and no im not saying they are good, i dont generaly care for picking the good and bad guys in geopolitics). but geography did play a role in Belarus' economic success due to it location. geography can cause some tings, and not some things, whats ahrd about that

i know gdp per capita isnt a measure for living standards, HDI is a better indicator. But you were the one who posted growth rates. While not GDP per capita, growth rates are a measure of GDP increase so.......
heres the list of HDI, its not hard to find, its a fairly well known and accepted measure
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_hum_dev_ind-economy-human-development-index

as for resisting emprialism, uv already shown over and over to have fucking dumb view of imperialism and been shot down by posters like KC and Devrim (part the reason i changed my politics), so yeah, Belarus anti-imperialist hero, long live (p.s. down forgot to privatise ur assets for russia)

oh yeah, also thought u may find this interesting. Belarus is one of the most unequal countries in Europe :crying:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gini_Coefficient_World_CIA_Report_2009-1.png
oh so progresive

so u support Belarus because it has progressive features in its economy, by which i guess u mean large state interference and a relativly large amount of social spending. Let me introduce u to the rest of Europe before the 80s and the UAE...

i hope belarus doesnt privatise all its assets, but it looks like under its current system it cant continue to go on for much longer. so again, why dont the workers themsleves take charge, u know, social revolution, rather than rely on a strongman with progressive policies?

[Rooster]

What mode of production prevails in Belarus? Is having a good slave owner better than having a bad slave owner?

[el_chavista]

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/53786000/jpg/_53786760_minsk_online_feature_pix.jpg How can you be so sure this guy is not an agent provocateur from an American NGO?

[bailey_187]

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/53786000/jpg/_53786760_minsk_online_feature_pix.jpg How can you be so sure this guy is not an agent provocateur from an American NGO?

fuck, u blow my cover

[danyboy27]

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/53786000/jpg/_53786760_minsk_online_feature_pix.jpg How can you be so sure this guy is not an agent provocateur from an American NGO?

the burden of the proof is on you man, you are the one accusing him.

[Revy]

edited

[Tabarnack]

You can tell that just by how his face looks? You're a genius.

Naw, if I can answer for El Chavista, it only takes two working brain cells to suspect that agent provocateurs are at play... when western countries have pledged 120 million dollars in support to opposition groups in just one occurrence (a huge amount for a small country) and have openly called for the overthrow of the Lukashenko government. One can only imagine what is going on at a deeper level.

The western backed "colour revolutions" sabotaging the democratic process ain't working no more :p

[agnixie]

Naw, if I can answer for El Chavista, it only takes two working brain cells to suspect that agent provocateurs are at play... when western countries have pledged 120 million dollars in support to opposition groups in just one occurrence (a huge amount for a small country) and have openly called for the overthrow of the Lukashenko government. One can only imagine what is going on at a deeper level.

The western backed "colour revolutions" sabotaging the democratic process ain't working no more :p

That would be the same democratic process where a puppet of Russia has been getting consistent 75%+ majorities on the first round of elections since his second election, right?

[Tabarnack]

That would be the same democratic process where a puppet of Russia has been getting consistent 75%+ majorities on the first round of elections since his second election, right?

That's quite impressive, but not as much as in the US where 99.8%+ always vote for pro capitalist-corporate parties.

[agnixie]

That's quite impressive, but not as much as in the US where 99.8%+ always vote for pro capitalist-corporate parties.

Cool fallacy bro. You want the name of it or you're good enough to figure it out?

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

That's quite impressive, but not as much as in the US where 99.8%+ always vote for pro capitalist-corporate parties.

Lukashenko isn't a representative of a capitalist party? :rolleyes:

I thought +95% of the Belorussian electorate also voted for pro-capitalist parties, in fact, I reckon they do that everywhere!

[danyboy27]

Naw, if I can answer for El Chavista, it only takes two working brain cells to suspect that agent provocateurs are at play... when western countries have pledged 120 million dollars in support to opposition groups in just one occurrence (a huge amount for a small country) and have openly called for the overthrow of the Lukashenko government. One can only imagine what is going on at a deeper level.

The western backed "colour revolutions" sabotaging the democratic process ain't working no more :p

Still not a proof that the guy on the picture is an agent provocateur. feel free to post any evidences anytime now.

and can you tell me exactly who received this money exactly, wich groups? beccause it really matter you know.

making claims about x person or x group without any informations about what are their goal, who are the people in it is just a big display of ignorance.

give me facts, bro.

[danyboy27]

I took some of my time to look it up and it seem the belarussian opposition is a mixed bag of many differents groups, some centrist, some leftist and some rightist.

you got the belarusian social democratic party, those folks are member of the socialist international.

there used to be a labour party, but was liquidated in 2004 by the state.

there is something called the united left party left fair world.

there is also the belarussian green party, those folks are anti corporatists and anti-globalist.

on the other side you got a plethora of centrist and some right wing groups opposed to the balurussian governement, the belarussian christian party,belarussian liberal party, the conservative christian party, european coalition free belarus etc etc.

so you see,claiming that x person or x action is the result of america or russian imperialism is easier said than done.

to be able to do that you need evidences, not just assumptions.

[Crux]

Naw, if I can answer for El Chavista, it only takes two working brain cells to suspect that agent provocateurs are at play... when western countries have pledged 120 million dollars in support to opposition groups in just one occurrence (a huge amount for a small country) and have openly called for the overthrow of the Lukashenko government. One can only imagine what is going on at a deeper level.

The western backed "colour revolutions" sabotaging the democratic process ain't working no more :p
Even the "colour revolutions" were not merely concoted by some shady conspiracy. The regimes that fell were corrupt, there were very ligitimate grievances. Conspiracy theorist logic is not something self-professed marxists should engage in.

Are there western backed NGO's in Belarus, working on the apyroll of the CIA? Of course there are.

Does this somehow change the nature of Belarus? Of course it does not.

And how come no-one, and I mean no-one, of those rushing to the defense of Lukashenko is commenting on the actual content of the article?
Knee-jerk much?

[Sasha]

In Belarus, one-armed man arrested for clapping

Rights advocates express dismay over ferocity of police response to protests



http://msnbcmedia1.msn.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Photo/2011/July/110707/wld-110708-belarus-245p.grid-6x2.jpg
Sergei Grits / AP
Belarusian plainclothes policemen block a central street to protect it from an opposition action "Revolution via social network" in Minsk, Belarus, on Wednesday.



By Fred Weir (http://www.csmonitor.com/About/Contact) Correspondent
Christian Science Monitor
updated 7/8/2011 7:24:51 PM ET


MOSCOW (http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&where1=MOSCOW%20&sty=h&form=msdate) — The sound of one hand clapping may be one of those proverbial mysteries, but a man was arrested and seriously punished in Minsk this week for allegedly doing it.
It's a little whiff of absurdity amid a wave of unrelentingly grim news from Belarus, where "Europe's last dictator" Alexander Lukashenko is digging in against growing public protests over a collapsing economy that's gutted living standards and left hundreds of thousands out of work since January in the little post-Soviet country of 10 million.
In order to evade tough regulations on public rallies, protesters eschew placards and shouted slogans, and merely clap their hands to display their anger at Mr. Lukashenko's policies. Since the weekly flash mob protests began last month, more than 1,700 people have been arrested – 400 this week alone. Most of them were fined heavily or jailed for up to 15 days on police court testimony that they were expressing a political opinion by clapping their hands in public.
But Konstantin Kaplin, an unemployed man from the western town of Grodno, says he was convicted this week of applauding in public and fined the equivalent of $200, despite overwhelming evidence of his innocence: He is officially registered as a disabled person and has only one arm.
Mr. Kaplin insists that he was only standing nearby and attempting to photograph demonstrators with his cell phone when plainclothes police grabbed him.
"The judge read out the charges, the police affirmed that I was applauding, and the fine was levied," Kaplin says.
There was no examination of evidence at all, he adds.
[/URL]
(http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31066137/media-kit/)







"The judge looked ashamed of herself, and I sympathize with her. She was probably under orders. But this is a huge sum for me to pay, more than twice my monthly pension, and I'm having to ask all my family and friends to help me raise it," he says.
Absurdity amid crackdown
Svetlana Kalinkina, editor of the independent Minsk newspaper Narodnaya Volya, says there have been similar cases amid the masses of detainees being rapidly processed through Belarussian courts.
"There was one case where deaf and mute person was accused of shouting antigovernmental slogans," she says. "Last week there was yet another case when a teacher was arrested while he was riding a bike and was accused of waving his arms and shouting something in a kind of protest."
"Miracles happen in our courts," she adds.
Human rights monitors express dismay over the increasing ferocity of the police response to the protests, which have been mostly peaceful and apparently legal under Belarus's constitution.
"Police have clearly been ordered to react to people clapping on the street, yet there is nothing in Belarussian legislation to authorize this," says Yulia Gorbunova, a Belarus observer with New York-based Human Rights Watch.
"The situation is deteriorating badly in Belarus, and the latest developments are very disturbing. Rallies have been brutally dispersed, and many people arrested, for gathering peacefully as they are legally entitled to do," she says. "All signs suggest it's going to get worse."
The crackdown on Lukashenko opponents has been underway since December, when the president, who has run Belarus for 17 years, won reelection with a massive 80 percent majority in polls critics allege were rigged.
Economic woes spurs more protest
But as the economy founders and a more than 60 percent devaluation of the ruble takes a toll on living standards, the number of Lukashenko opponents taking to the streets is larger and includes a much wider spectrum of people than ever before.
International criticism of the crackdown is also growing. In a briefing Thursday US State Department spokesperson Victoria Nuland urged Belarussian authorities to release hundreds of prisoners, who include several presidential candidates and other leading opposition politicians.
"Hundreds of protesters, including more than 20 journalists covering the protests, were detained during the last demonstration on July 6," she said. "We urge the government of Belarus to release those detained, to respect the rights, including freedom of assembly, of the people of Belarus. We continue to call for the immediate, unconditional release of all political prisoners in Belarus."
Lukashenko responded by publicly offering to put the prisoners on a train and send them to "any European country that will take them."
[URL="http://g.msn.com/AIPRIV/en-us"]
(http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31066137/media-kit/)







"If the European Union wants to take them, we can send them right away, no problem. They can have them if they care so much for political prisoners," the official Belarussian Telegraph Agency quoted Lukashenko as saying.
But he rebuffed Polish Foreign Minister Radoslaw Sikorski’s suggestion that he free all prisoners and then enter into consultations with European leaders on how to overcome the economic crisis.
"We are smart people and therefore don’t need these consultations. We have no intention to bargain with the EU with regard to prisoners," the agency quoted him as saying.
A few in Belarus's beleaguered opposition see some hope in Lukashenko's rhetoric.
"At least it shows that he's thinking about some way out of this situation. Strange things are happening here in Belarus," says Ms. Kalinkina. "Lukashenko finds himself in a blind alley, and he's fantasizing about how to get rid of all the people who disagree with him. But maybe it shows that he's looking for some pretext to finally let them out."
© 2011 Christian Science Monitor


source: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43690734/ns/world_news-christian_science_monitor/

[Tabarnack]

Still not a proof that the guy on the picture is an agent provocateur. feel free to post any evidences anytime now.

and can you tell me exactly who received this money exactly, wich groups? beccause it really matter you know.

making claims about x person or x group without any informations about what are their goal, who are the people in it is just a big display of ignorance.

give me facts, bro.

If you read my post correctly you will find that I avoid making specific accusation against the nerd in the photo, only that given the massive foreign interference in Belarus politics that it's not unreasonable to suspect that agent provocateurs are involved.

[Tabarnack]

Even the "colour revolutions" were not merely concoted by some shady conspiracy. The regimes that fell were corrupt, there were very ligitimate grievances. Conspiracy theorist logic is not something self-professed marxists should engage in.

It's not a conspiracy theory that the west is massively interfering in Belarus internal politics and has called for the overthrow of the regime.

Wearing blinders or being wilfully obtuse does not represent an attitude a self-professed marxist should have.

[bailey_187]

It's not a conspiracy theory that the west is massively interfering in Belarus internal politics and has called for the overthrow of the regime.

Wearing blinders or being wilfully obtuse does not represent an attitude a self-professed marxist should have.

i think the point is that involvment by outside forces is not enough to lead to the end of regimes usually, there must be some popular discontent in the first place that the west will exploit, or if outside forces have some sort of influence in the armed forces (as in the case of Allende)

Cuba is/was constantly subjected to outside interference from the USA etc, yet due, i think, to it having a fair amount of popular support, it survived.

[danyboy27]

If you read my post correctly you will find that I avoid making specific accusation against the nerd in the photo, only that given the massive foreign interference in Belarus politics that it's not unreasonable to suspect that agent provocateurs are involved.

its only reasonable of you can prove it.

Now prove it.

[Crux]

It's not a conspiracy theory that the west is massively interfering in Belarus internal politics and has called for the overthrow of the regime.

Wearing blinders or being wilfully obtuse does not represent an attitude a self-professed marxist should have.
I think perhaps you should have read the rest of my post before posting.

[Os Cangaceiros]

In Belarus, one-armed man arrested for clapping

Wow, that's an Onion-esque headline if I've ever read one.

[Tabarnack]

i think the point is that involvment by outside forces is not enough to lead to the end of regimes usually, there must be some popular discontent in the first place that the west will exploit, or if outside forces have some sort of influence in the armed forces (as in the case of Allende)

Cuba is/was constantly subjected to outside interference from the USA etc, yet due, i think, to it having a fair amount of popular support, it survived.

All governments are less popular and vulnerable at some point, question is what right do western powers have in medling in the internal affairs of a sovereign country trying to push for regime change, you can be sure if the situation was reversed there would hell to pay...

[Tabarnack]

I think perhaps you should have read the rest of my post before posting.

"Are there western backed NGO's in Belarus, working on the apyroll of the CIA? Of course there are.

Does this somehow change the nature of Belarus? Of course it does not."


It does change the nature of Belarus, it puts the Regime in a defensive position, justifies the use and abuse of police powers, if the desired effect was a more open society then this would counterproductive, but the real objective I suspect is integration of the Belarus economy into the western block, the human rights issue is just the narrative being used to justify interference in Belarus.

What would Cuba be today without the 50 year US embargo and a less aggressive attitude from Washington...we can only speculate, but of course international relations does matter and influences the nature of regimes.

[agnixie]

All governments are less popular and vulnerable at some point, question is what right do western powers have in medling in the internal affairs of a sovereign country trying to push for regime change, you can be sure if the situation was reversed there would hell to pay...

Okay since you obviously don't take hints: the name of the fallacy is tu quoque.


What would Cuba be today without the 50 year US embargo and a less aggressive attitude from Washington...we can only speculate, but of course international relations does matter and influences the nature of regimes.

This has nothing to do with Belarus, which isn't being embargoed and is being backed and bailed out by its russian masters.

[Tabarnack]

its only reasonable of you can prove it.

Now prove it.

I suggest you look up the word suspicion and proof, you will find that they have different meaning, then reread my post very slowly, lâche pas t'es capable mon ami !

[Tabarnack]

Okay since you obviously don't take hints: the name of the fallacy is tu quoque.

I see no parallel or similarities between western powers and Belarus and have made no such arguments.


This has nothing to do with Belarus, which isn't being embargoed and is being backed and bailed out by its russian masters.Maybe you should keep up with the news...as far as the financing goes Belarus has also had major financing from the Chinese, better that than the IMF anytime, but you're right about the evil empire, scary stuff ! were is Ronald Raygun when you need him :rolleyes:

[Crux]

"Are there western backed NGO's in Belarus, working on the apyroll of the CIA? Of course there are.

Does this somehow change the nature of Belarus? Of course it does not."


It does change the nature of Belarus, it puts the Regime in a defensive position, justifies the use and abuse of police powers, if the desired effect was a more open society then this would counterproductive, but the real objective I suspect is integration of the Belarus economy into the western block, the human rights issue is just the narrative being used to justify interference in Belarus.

What would Cuba be today without the 50 year US embargo and a less aggressive attitude from Washington...we can only speculate, but of course international relations does matter and influences the nature of regimes.
Just out of curiosity why are you speaking out of the regimes viewpoint, justifying state brutality? And I am still waiting for anyone to pick up on the part of the OP I have quoted twice now. Whetever a country is in the sphere of russia or in the sphere of the west does not make it more progressive. That's even reminiscent of the kind of deluded liberals that speak of using the EU as a "counter-weight" to the u.s.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

Maybe you should keep up with the news...as far as the financing goes Belarus has also had major financing from the Chinese, better that than the IMF anytime,


Most of Chinese economic policy, including that which they like to tell their "friends" to adopt, is based on what the IMF told them they would need to do in the 80's and 90's, so there's really not that big a difference. The IMF basically got free-reign over the Chinese economy, and now China spreads the good word (and Russia also supports the same things in contexts where it will allow the national bourgeoisie to get their toes and fingers into a new market).

[danyboy27]

I suggest you look up the word suspicion and proof, you will find that they have different meaning, then reread my post very slowly, lâche pas t'es capable mon ami !
:D

In order to be able to suspect someone of doing something bad, you need a certain amount of reasonable evidence, everybody is innocent until proven guilty, that the rule.

To suspect a group or an invididual you need a minimum of evidence, for exemple, if the group x is proven to dirrectly receiving aid from the U.S that could be considered an evidence, and if that group is supporting neoliberal policies and privatisation, or if x individual is not a belarussian citizen.

suppositions are meaningless if you have nothing to back it up.

a plus man!

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Manic expression-I mentioned Zimbabwe because Spartacus brought it up. Not because I wanted to. I even said it was a Red Herring that he brought it up.

Anyways, the basic point that this is an imperfect government that does not allow protests has been raised, and there is no rational response. Homophobic? Poor labor relations? Capitalist? Lack of free speech and open criticism? A highly centralized power structure? A lack of worker's democracy? All of these things are present, and therefore the people have every right to protest against State policies if they so desire to make their voices heard. I don't think any government should be immune from protest, especially nonviolent ones. Now, if these are all foreign paid NGOs, then we must ask, what kind of government creates so many contradictions that the CIA and other outside groups can so easily exploit or spread instability in society?