Businessmen fer communism

[twenty percent tip]

a list of some guys who gonna end wage slavery cuz theyre tired of getting rich from doing nothing. they decidedtheyd rather be equal witheveryone else and help produce fer society!!

-Jack Barnes: leader of Scoliast Workeing Party. he and mary waters is his his wife but also a leader. she runs pathfinder press. they soldthe apartment for 1,870,000$ and gavehimself a 100,000$ finder fee http://www.observer.com/2007/communists-capitalize-village-sale-get-1-87-m-loft

-David North: leader of Sorcialist Equality Party. not real name so no relationto peter north. CEO of grand river printing company. makesmillons of bucks. makes partymembers workinhis company but cant joinunion because SEP coinkidentally says unions are reactionaries. hehe http://trotskyism.livejournal.com/3890.html (http://www.anonym.to/?http://trotskyism.livejournal.com/3890.html)

now if we can just convince bill gates and obama weyll have communist lyfe!! maybe someone should send them a copy of the abcs of communism

[Hexen]

Even the title of this thread is a oxymoron.

[twenty percent tip]

EXCATRLY!!!!!:laugh:

why peopple believe that shit? yourparty is owned by a CEO of propagandaINC:lol:

[MarxSchmarx]

Yeah, I think nominally "socialist" or "revolutionary" "leaders" who also make a lot of money doing what they do should be called out on. But I don't think this condemns entire organizations.

It's a fine line between between providing people the means to carry on their activism and letting them live life as practical petty-bourgeois careerists. I think as long as we have capitalism and as long as we establish institutions to try to fight capitalism we will have to deal with such individuals. But it is a very fine line indeed.

[Broletariat]

Here's a name to add to that list.

Engels, that damn capitalist bastard.

[bcbm]

i think i might pursue a career in "leading a socialist org"

[Broletariat]

i think i might pursue a career in "leading a socialist org"

I hear they're quite profitable once you can trick people into thinking liberal activism has ANYTHING to do with socialism.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

i think i might pursue a career in "leading a socialist org"

It does seem to be a really good business move. Where else can you get free labor?

[bcbm]

would it be better to start from scratch or try to claw my way to the top of an existing org do you think?

[Broletariat]

would it be better to start from scratch or try to claw my way to the top of an existing org do you think?

You could make the anarcho-trot conspiracy real by trying to claw your way to the top of an anarchist group maybe. Entryism ftw.

[bcbm]

something tells me there isn't much money in anarchist groups...

[MarxSchmarx]

It does seem to be a really good business move. Where else can you get free labor?

Unpaid internships

http://news.slashdot.org/story/11/07/02/1925227/Calling-BS-On-Unpaid-Internships

In any event given the volume of nutjubs you also attract you cannot afford to underestimate your liabilities in this field.

[Geiseric]

Maybe i can take anvantage of the racists and closet racist tea partiers in america, and start a non grassroots tea party union of sorts, and charge them tea party union dues! I won't have to do a thing except tell them where to fly to, and none of them will question me since I ''worked hard'' and ''earned his position!"

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

would it be better to start from scratch or try to claw my way to the top of an existing org do you think?

Make a new organisation. Become the Great Holy Wizard or Sorcialism.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

something tells me there isn't much money in anarchist groups...

So you've found your niche to fill! A new market awaits!!

[Martin Blank]

Yeah, I think nominally "socialist" or "revolutionary" "leaders" who also make a lot of money doing what they do should be called out on. But I don't think this condemns entire organizations.

It's a fine line between between providing people the means to carry on their activism and letting them live life as practical petty-bourgeois careerists. I think as long as we have capitalism and as long as we establish institutions to try to fight capitalism we will have to deal with such individuals. But it is a very fine line indeed.

I think it stopped being a "fine line" a long time ago, especially for these two Great Leaders and their organizations.

The SEP's Grand River Publishing is the most profitable printing business in southeast Michigan. Crain's Detroit Business has called the company and its CEO, David Green (North), the best in the region. Why is it the best? Because it is a notoriously non-union print shop that uses cheap labor (SEP members) to produce the jobs. It has fought off at least three unionization efforts during its existence. Meanwhile, Green and the other top management/owners of Grand River life an affluent life; Green himself drives a BMW and lives in the very wealthy Bloomfield Hills area.

The SWP's Pathfinder Press was also a profitable enterprise ... for Barnes and Waters. If you ever wondered why their books and publications were so expensive (back in the early 1990s, a copy of The Militant would cost $1.50!), it was because nearly all of the profits were diverted into the "non-profit" Anchor Foundation (a tax-deductible donation, I might add), which was little more than a means of funneling Pathfinder money to Barnes and Waters, who drew a salary from the group. At the same time, the SWP had (still has, I believe) a policy of shifting its members from industry to industry, depending on what they feel is the most radical at any given moment. For example, the SWP had a lot of members in the 1980s and 1990s who worked in auto in Detroit, but they were all (except those who ended up quitting) forced to leave those jobs and become meatpackers (a minimum-wage job), either locally or in some other city. This kind of shifting of members would make them economically dependent on the Party for their survival, which means they wouldn't dare speak out against Barnes and Waters, lest they be thrown out on the street (literally).

We can rightly call this the "Cannon Plan", since Jim Cannon was one of the first to experience it, in the years before his death in 1974. I remember a veteran Trotskyist (I think he was a Spartacist) telling me a story of when he was paper-selling outside of a Militant Labor Forum in Los Angeles in the late-1960s or early-1970s, and running into Cannon as he was coming in. He started asking Cannon how he could go along with the SWP's revision of their past politics, their tailing of Castro and reunification with the Pabloites. Cannon's only reply was, "They own my house," and he walked inside. A pathetic end to a tragic process, if there ever was one.


Here's a name to add to that list: Engels, that damn capitalist bastard.

Engels may have had a bourgeois background (his father owning controlling shares in a textile mill in Manchester), but he did about as much as he could to get away from it. When his father tried to get him appointed as a manager in the mill, he rejected it and applied to become a clerk. When he started getting money from his family (after leaving his job as a clerk), he gave most of it to Marx or other workers' organizations. After his father died and left him the shares, he tried being a manager, but quit after five years, liquidated his shares and gave most of the money to workers' organizations.

One thing I will also say about Engels (and Marx, too) is that he never tried to pass himself off as a "workers' leader", like Barnes and Green (North) do. Both Marx and Engels refused to be seated as representatives of the German proletariat in the First International, and Engels rejected a leadership position in the German Social-Democratic Workers' Party. A far cry from today's petty-bourgeois leaders of self-described socialist and communist organizations.

[ZeroNowhere]

And it's twenty percent tip with another thrilling exposé. This reminds me of a gossip magazine. I hear that there's a lot of money in those, too.

[robbo203]

I think it stopped being a "fine line" a long time ago, especially for these two Great Leaders and their organizations.

The SEP's Grand River Publishing is the most profitable printing business in southeast Michigan. Crain's Detroit Business has called the company and its CEO, David Green (North), the best in the region. Why is it the best? Because it is a notoriously non-union print shop that uses cheap labor (SEP members) to produce the jobs. It has fought off at least three unionization efforts during its existence. Meanwhile, Green and the other top management/owners of Grand River life an affluent life; Green himself drives a BMW and lives in the very wealthy Bloomfield Hills area.

The SWP's Pathfinder Press was also a profitable enterprise ... for Barnes and Waters. If you ever wondered why their books and publications were so expensive (back in the early 1990s, a copy of The Militant would cost $1.50!), it was because nearly all of the profits were diverted into the "non-profit" Anchor Foundation (a tax-deductible donation, I might add), which was little more than a means of funneling Pathfinder money to Barnes and Waters, who drew a salary from the group. At the same time, the SWP had (still has, I believe) a policy of shifting its members from industry to industry, depending on what they feel is the most radical at any given moment. For example, the SWP had a lot of members in the 1980s and 1990s who worked in auto in Detroit, but they were all (except those who ended up quitting) forced to leave those jobs and become meatpackers (a minimum-wage job), either locally or in some other city. This kind of shifting of members would make them economically dependent on the Party for their survival, which means they wouldn't dare speak out against Barnes and Waters, lest they be thrown out on the street (literally).

We can rightly call this the "Cannon Plan", since Jim Cannon was one of the first to experience it, in the years before his death in 1974. I remember a veteran Trotskyist (I think he was a Spartacist) telling me a story of when he was paper-selling outside of a Militant Labor Forum in Los Angeles in the late-1960s or early-1970s, and running into Cannon as he was coming in. He started asking Cannon how he could go along with the SWP's revision of their past politics, their tailing of Castro and reunification with the Pabloites. Cannon's only reply was, "They own my house," and he walked inside. A pathetic end to a tragic process, if there ever was one.



Engels may have had a bourgeois background (his father owning controlling shares in a textile mill in Manchester), but he did about as much as he could to get away from it. When his father tried to get him appointed as a manager in the mill, he rejected it and applied to become a clerk. When he started getting money from his family (after leaving his job as a clerk), he gave most of it to Marx or other workers' organizations. After his father died and left him the shares, he tried being a manager, but quit after five years, liquidated his shares and gave most of the money to workers' organizations.

One thing I will also say about Engels (and Marx, too) is that he never tried to pass himself off as a "workers' leader", like Barnes and Green (North) do. Both Marx and Engels refused to be seated as representatives of the German proletariat in the First International, and Engels rejected a leadership position in the German Social-Democratic Workers' Party. A far cry from today's petty-bourgeois leaders of self-described socialist and communist organizations.


Interesting stuff and a salutory lesson in the dangers of trying to separate means and end. If we are going to achieve a genuine socialist society we need to prefigure it our relationships and organisations in the here and now.

The end determines the means....

[Catma]

So I'm guessing these orgs don't/didn't keep open books? If so, is there a real reason for that? Is it a reasonable expectation for a revolutionary org to keep all finances fully transparent? I can think of a reason or two that it might not be, but I'd like the thoughts of people more veteran.

[MarxSchmarx]

Yeah, I think nominally "socialist" or "revolutionary" "leaders" who also make a lot of money doing what they do should be called out on. But I don't think this condemns entire organizations.

It's a fine line between between providing people the means to carry on their activism and letting them live life as practical petty-bourgeois careerists. I think as long as we have capitalism and as long as we establish institutions to try to fight capitalism we will have to deal with such individuals. But it is a very fine line indeed. I think it stopped being a "fine line" a long time ago, especially for these two Great Leaders and their organizations.

The SEP's Grand River Publishing is the most profitable printing business in southeast Michigan. Crain's Detroit Business has called the company and its CEO, David Green (North), the best in the region. Why is it the best? Because it is a notoriously non-union print shop that uses cheap labor (SEP members) to produce the jobs. It has fought off at least three unionization efforts during its existence. Meanwhile, Green and the other top management/owners of Grand River life an affluent life; Green himself drives a BMW and lives in the very wealthy Bloomfield Hills area.

The SWP's Pathfinder Press was also a profitable enterprise ... for Barnes and Waters. If you ever wondered why their books and publications were so expensive (back in the early 1990s, a copy of The Militant would cost $1.50!), it was because nearly all of the profits were diverted into the "non-profit" Anchor Foundation (a tax-deductible donation, I might add), which was little more than a means of funneling Pathfinder money to Barnes and Waters, who drew a salary from the group. At the same time, the SWP had (still has, I believe) a policy of shifting its members from industry to industry, depending on what they feel is the most radical at any given moment. For example, the SWP had a lot of members in the 1980s and 1990s who worked in auto in Detroit, but they were all (except those who ended up quitting) forced to leave those jobs and become meatpackers (a minimum-wage job), either locally or in some other city. This kind of shifting of members would make them economically dependent on the Party for their survival, which means they wouldn't dare speak out against Barnes and Waters, lest they be thrown out on the street (literally).



Well, for the record I was merely commenting on the general problem of how to successfully remunerate and retain dedicated and effective activists who do this stuff full time, rather than seeking to comment on these two particular clowns.

[Reznov]

Yeah, I think nominally "socialist" or "revolutionary" "leaders" who also make a lot of money doing what they do should be called out on. But I don't think this condemns entire organizations.

It's a fine line between between providing people the means to carry on their activism and letting them live life as practical petty-bourgeois careerists. I think as long as we have capitalism and as long as we establish institutions to try to fight capitalism we will have to deal with such individuals. But it is a very fine line indeed.

I have to disagree with this. A Communist can be anyone, so long as they seek to end exploitation.

But yes, they should be called out on if they are reaping the profits and not returning them from running a party or organization.

[DaringMehring]

Twenty percent tip always gives us worthwhile gems. I remember a post of his where he called out, among others, "Fried" Engels and Leon "Tortsky" --- should be on the menu of any Marxist restaurant! But as for his current effort, I don't know which of "scoliast" and "sorcialist" I prefer.

[Martin Blank]

Twenty percent tip always gives us worthwhile gems. I remember a post of his where he called out, among others, "Fried" Engels and Leon "Tortsky" --- should be on the menu of any Marxist restaurant! But as for his current effort, I don't know which of "scoliast" and "sorcialist" I prefer.

It has to be sorcialist. I mean, think of the opportunities for cornering the D&D/WoW/Zelda/Harry Potter/MMORPG market. And the latter even have their own costumes. Put a wide-brimmed hat on Marx and they'll think he's Gandalf, FFS!

[MarxSchmarx]

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarxSchmarx http://www.revleft.com/vb/revleft/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showthread.php?p=2162823#post2162823)
Yeah, I think nominally "socialist" or "revolutionary" "leaders" who also make a lot of money doing what they do should be called out on. But I don't think this condemns entire organizations.

It's a fine line between between providing people the means to carry on their activism and letting them live life as practical petty-bourgeois careerists. I think as long as we have capitalism and as long as we establish institutions to try to fight capitalism we will have to deal with such individuals. But it is a very fine line indeed.
I have to disagree with this. A Communist can be anyone, so long as they seek to end exploitation.

But yes, they should be called out on if they are reaping the profits and not returning them from running a party or organization.

They might be "communists", but so what? They are still harming the movement

[Ocean Seal]

Here's a name to add to that list.

Engels, that damn capitalist bastard.
For what's its worth, I can forgive Engels, because well he contributed important theory. But the other guys are just all around worthless.

[La Comédie Noire]

The more invested in the system you are, the more conservative you become. This seems to be a really hard lesson for leftists to learn. They were both probably sincere socialists at one point and may even still think they are, but when push comes to shove can you count on these types of people?

I have a feeling If I hid out in one of their million dollar lofts as a fugitive, I'd be in front of a firing squad before I knew what hit me.

[Tim Finnegan]

something tells me there isn't much money in anarchist groups...
Malcolm McLaren begs to differ. ;)


"Fried" Engels and Leon "Tortsky" --- should be on the menu of any Marxist restaurant!
Jam Connoly, Anton Pancake, Amadeo Burger- I think we could be onto something here! :lol:

[Ocean Seal]

I have to say, Amadeo burger sounds delicious. Without even knowing what's in it, I think it would be the key to building a mass party.

[Martin Blank]

I have to say, Amadeo burger sounds delicious. Without even knowing what's in it, I think it would be the key to building a mass party.

You can order your Amadeo Burger combo Mass-Party sized with a large French-Turn fries and Leninade (or Koba-Cola).

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

The sad thing is that Leninade is a real product.

http://www.bevmo.com/Media/Images/ProductImagesFull/67747.jpg

[twenty percent tip]

my typingsucks. i hadabad accident comorades.

more legends ofthe fall. mike ely of kasama fameowns a company too! bumbard the headquatres!:cool:

[Comrade Crow]

Capitalists for Communism sounds like old people for aging.