In our current world can a communist own a business?

[Shropshire Socialist]

I ask because in the world as it stands, capitalism is the main power in the West.

So if a communist wanted to create an income to supplement their low paid work, should they or would it be wrong?

I am thinking about if someone on a low income decided to sell items on ebay part time to supplement their wages and/or state benefits. Would this be wrong if they describe themselves as a communist?

Thanks! :thumbup1:

[Stalin Ate My Homework]

Well as a Communist i'd say the problem with Capitalism is the exploitation of Labor. Selling items on ebay is not exactly wage slavery. If anything it could be considered harmful to Capitalism as a whole if your taking away trade from the big beorgoisie, so yeah I think it should be encouraged.
:thumbup1:

[piet11111]

I don't see why that would be bad as long as you do not hire people to extract labor surplus value

[Volcanicity]

Unless you're selling cheap,shoddy goods at a high price to rip people off with as well as hiring people to work for you, then no there's nothing wrong with it.

[ArrowLance]

There is something wrong with it, but it can be done.

Whats wrong with it is in the concept of forming a business what motivations could a communist possibly have to do so that are not anti-communist. That is why would a communist want to create a business to compete in the market they are trying to dismantle.

However there is nothing that actually prevents a business owner from being a communist, regardless of their position towards labour in their business.

[Volcanicity]

That is why would a communist want to create a business to compete in the market they are trying to dismantle.
Yes, but if you're trying to make yourself some money to pay the rent for instance and nobody else is involved in your "business" as in employees then there's nothing wrong with it.It's hardly big business if you're selling thing's to make yourself some money to stay afloat.

[ZeroNowhere]

Yeah, it's fine, communism isn't a set of ethical principles for living under capitalism, etc. Friedrich Engels had a business, extracted surplus value, and so on, and was a better communist than most.

[REVLEFT'S BIEGGST MATSER TROL]

Of course you can. Personal morality under capitalism isn't really relavant to what system you find preferable. Personal morality in a prison isn't really relavant to how you should behave on the outside etc.

[Shropshire Socialist]

Thanks! :thumbup1:

[Hoipolloi Cassidy]

...remind me of the Buddenbrooks, Thomas Mann's archetypical nineteenth-century bourgeois family, whose motto was: "Save your dreams for night-time."

It's not exactly easy to run a business or live your life according to the kind of principles you think are the right ones, but you should try it some time, just as you should try being homeless, or hungry some time, you'll end up understanding more about how capitalism and how to change it than by reading a pile of books.

I got my start in business with an anarchist communal printing press, meaning they didn't just talk anarchism (like, say, certain "anarchist" or "red" bookstores I could mention), they put it in practice, and it was painful, and contradictory, and it required huge amounts of thought just to survive. One day I got really pissed at the person "in charge" and screamed at him, "Tell me about the Revolution, man!" He smiled sweetly and said: "It's here..."

[ArrowLance]

Yes, but if you're trying to make yourself some money to pay the rent for instance and nobody else is involved in your "business" as in employees then there's nothing wrong with it.It's hardly big business if you're selling thing's to make yourself some money to stay afloat.

You can hardly call providing services as an individual a business, whether you contract yourself to one or more employers does not change whether or not you are a wage labourer. But indeed in production of goods we have the realization of other labourers surplus value whether or not they are directly employed in that production.

What I was saying is that why would a communist want to start a business when their efforts could be poured into starting a revolutionary situation. There are much easier ways to earn bread.

[Volcanicity]

What I was saying is that why would a communist want to start a business when their efforts could be poured into starting a revolutionary situation. There are much easier ways to earn bread.
I understand what you're saying,but selling your possesions off on ebay,a car-boot sale,sunday market etc to make money for yourself to pay the rent to keep yourself from being homeless or to pay whatever bills you owe is not wrong.
As long as you don't employ or exploit anyone and you're using the money to live to what's the problem?

Whether you're a communist or not in this case is irrelevant as anyone who has ever been or threatened with homelessness would agree.

[Dogs On Acid]

You can't live like a Communist in a Capitalist society

[SocialistAction]

Self-employment is not exploitative. I would only find the notion of business ownership to be an objectionable pursuit for a communist if he or she decided to model the enterprise off of the traditional capitalist model of surplus extraction from wage-laborers. (Any business that would otherwise require the utilization of wage-labor should be formed into a cooperative.)

[Desperado]

supplement their low paid work

In which case they are not bourgeoisie, so not really that hypocritical. But being a full blown cappie and calling for and participating in the (revolutionary) abolition of exploitation is like a slave-owning John Brown.

Marx himself gambled on the stock market and Engels was an industrialist. Just convenient how they foresaw an element of the bourgeoisie swapping sides.

[Hebrew Hammer]

Unless you're selling cheap,shoddy goods at a high price to rip people off with as well as hiring people to work for you, then no there's nothing wrong with it.

Take off the hiring people to work for you bit and I say either-or is fine.

Hustle that shit.

[∞]

A cooperative would be pretty cool. Granted they still go through the viscous cycle of business. But at least people would be working as equals.

[twenty percent tip]

yea class and interest has nothing to do with communism. any body can want communism. all you need to do is dream and click your heals. so we dont need class war. workers dont need to fight the capitalists and burguios state. we dont need any fight or revolution. all we gots to do is convince the bosses what a good idea capitalism is! yaaaaaaaaaaay!!! :tt1:

marx wrote all that stuff for fun times. he liked to write it. he wanted to show the capitalism how fun communism would be. so once the cops and presidents and business owners and ceos and war generals read the fun story of communism they would all get down!

"Let the ruling classes tremble at a Communistic revolution" is a missedtranslation. the original meaning was: 'hey everybody communism sounds really cool. why dont we ditch this capitalism mess and do it!"

[Fulanito de Tal]

First, FUCK THAT. If the people want to live in a capitalist system, let them eat it. Run a business and make your money. If they don't like it, tell them we live in a democracy and they can vote to kiss your ass.

Second, you have one life. If this is is the system you have to live in, make the best of it.

Last and most important for the left, if a revolution happens, the more important and money making your business is, the more power you have for us :)

[ArrowLance]

I understand what you're saying,but selling your possesions off on ebay,a car-boot sale,sunday market etc to make money for yourself to pay the rent to keep yourself from being homeless or to pay whatever bills you owe is not wrong.
As long as you don't employ or exploit anyone and you're using the money to live to what's the problem?

Whether you're a communist or not in this case is irrelevant as anyone who has ever been or threatened with homelessness would agree.

I don't think you do understand because I never said it was wrong, simply that a communist should not want to do it. Besides I also said that something so small as selling things personal on ebay can not be considered a business. The fact is to participate in the market you must exploit the working class as market prices and systems are supported by their surplus value and must be consumed to sell anything.

Also as a communist who has faced homelessness and hunger I would like to point out that I obviously do not agree, and your attempt at an emotional response is unfair and most certainly something to be avoided in the future.

[Decommissioner]

I see nothing wrong with it. If the opportunity presents itself, why not?

My friends and I are making t-shirts and selling them, we also hope to start a record store. We run things as co-owners of course, since I would have moral qualms with exploiting workers.

Other than my peers, I have no social safety net. I work and pay bills. Working for a living sucks, having a boss sucks. There is nothing glorious about it, and I get the feeling people who try to glorify and romanticize labor dont have to worry where their next meal comes from. If you have a way to be your own boss...to be able to generate money while doing something you love, do it! Don't worry if that technically counts you as a "businessman" or not, if you're a communist than you are a communist, despite what class you may belong to.

Also think of it this way, what would you be doing in a communist society? You would probably be doing what you wanted to do ie running your "business". I see no reason why the mom and pop shops or the self employed should disappear in a communist society. Mom and pop shops will turn into small worker run shops and the self employed will be those able to continue their labor as hobbies since food and shelter and all of lifes necessities will be free.

[StalinFanboy]

Well as a Communist i'd say the problem with Capitalism is the exploitation of Labor. Selling items on ebay is not exactly wage slavery. If anything it could be considered harmful to Capitalism as a whole if your taking away trade from the big beorgoisie, so yeah I think it should be encouraged.
:thumbup1:

Hi

Capitalism isn't a single entity or place. Taking trade or money away from big business in favor of small business isn't detrimental or antagonistic to capitalism in one bit.

Capitalism isn't a system but a form of logic that governs social relationships. There is no difference between Sony and your local restaurant, besides the amount of capital accumulated and the power either can exert upon the world. Both of them extract value from human labor to be exchanged on a market. So long as human labor is exchanged there will be capitalism.

[NormalG]

"Commie or not" As long as we live under capitalism, any and all work we do works towards the maintenance of its existence, so what you do for money doesn't make a difference.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Well as a Communist i'd say the problem with Capitalism is the exploitation of Labor. Selling items on ebay is not exactly wage slavery. If anything it could be considered harmful to Capitalism as a whole if your taking away trade from the big beorgoisie, so yeah I think it should be encouraged.
:thumbup1:


http://thecompetentconservative.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/meg+whitman.jpg





Meg Whitman finds this funny, and so do I.



You know who Meg Whitman is? the GOP Contender for governor of California last year. Whats so special about her? She dumped the most money into a gubernatorial campaign than anyone ever before.
(http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1010/44014.html)

Where did she get that money?


She was the CEO of ebay.

[ZeroNowhere]

yea class and interest has nothing to do with communism. any body can want communism. all you need to do is dream and click your heals. so we dont need class war. workers dont need to fight the capitalists and burguios state. we dont need any fight or revolution. all we gots to do is convince the bosses what a good idea capitalism is! yaaaaaaaaaaay!!! :tt1:

marx wrote all that stuff for fun times. he liked to write it. he wanted to show the capitalism how fun communism would be. so once the cops and presidents and business owners and ceos and war generals read the fun story of communism they would all get down!

"Let the ruling classes tremble at a Communistic revolution" is a missedtranslation. the original meaning was: 'hey everybody communism sounds really cool. why dont we ditch this capitalism mess and do it!"I like how you're attacking moralistic socialism in order to put forward a moralistic socialism with populist phraseology instead. It's very suave. I hear that Chavez may need a replacement soon, so carpe diem.

Zero.

[Revy]

I ask because in the world as it stands, capitalism is the main power in the West.

So if a communist wanted to create an income to supplement their low paid work, should they or would it be wrong?

I am thinking about if someone on a low income decided to sell items on ebay part time to supplement their wages and/or state benefits. Would this be wrong if they describe themselves as a communist?

Thanks! :thumbup1:

I don't see that as capitalism, or owning a business.

I see it as a worker supporting themselves. To be a capitalist you need to own a business and employ workers. The petit-bourgeois are not people who simply sell things, they manage capitalist relations.

Who cares what some privileged idiots, who with their proletarian fetishism see being revolutionary as a contest of who is the biggest wage slave, think?

[Shropshire Socialist]

Some very interesting and informative replies. Thanks everyone! :)

[Belleraphone]

Well, if you want to supplement your income, you are going to obviously have to get some profit. Give your workers a decent wage, calculate their salary and see if it would be enough for them to afford tertiary education. Factor in clothes, family, and such obviously. That's the margin I would use since it would pretty much allow them to escape poverty, which is a main tenet of Left-wing politics.

[Volcanicity]

Also as a communist who has faced homelessness and hunger I would like to point out that I obviously do not agree.
So have I, that was why I posted that I was just coming at it from a personal experience not to draw an emotional response from you,so I apologise if it seemed that way.

Besides I'd also had a few too many beers sitting out in the sun which is probably why it appeared I was talking out of my ass.

[Principia Ethica]

I like this discussion. I work for myself and often times thought that I'd be viewed as a hypocrite for being here. I do pretty well for myself without employing anyone. I'd probably not do as well under a communist system. . .there might not at all be a place for my profession but I still think that capitalism is a broken/unsustainable system.

[Thirsty Crow]

What I was saying is that why would a communist want to start a business when their efforts could be poured into starting a revolutionary situation. There are much easier ways to earn bread.
Much easier ways? Because the ruling class is just so anxious to hire a whole lot of unemployed and recently graduated proletarians, handing out more than decent wages?

Plus, there's what ZeroNowhere said.

@principiaethica: I'm curious, what do you do, if it's ok to ask?

[Principia Ethica]

Much easier ways? Because the ruling class is just so anxious to hire a whole lot of unemployed and recently graduated proletarians, handing out more than decent wages?

Plus, there's what ZeroNowhere said.

@principiaethica: I'm curious, what do you do, if it's ok to ask?

I work as an "independent" in the adult industry. (No, not a "working girl" or an exotic dancer. . . .but it's considered adult.)