the end of the space age

[bcbm]

http://www.economist.com/node/18897425

[ColonelCossack]

How sad. Maybe after the revolution humanity will carry on the legacy of the dreamers of the 50's and 60's, and go into space.

[Mather]

A real shame and it does seem as if the USA has lost a lot of it's former interest in outer space.

But I do hope this does not mean an end to the space age as such as other countries like China and some of the European ones could fill in the void left in space exploration by the USA.

[Queercommie Girl]

But I do hope this does not mean an end to the space age as such as other countries like China and some of the European ones could fill in the void left in space exploration by the USA.

I care far less about the Chinese space programme than about worker's activism in the country. Every "achievement" China makes these days is literally based on the blood of Chinese workers.

[Dr Mindbender]

I dont think its the end of the space age, only the end of the space age as we know it. Private initiatives ala Virgin Galactic are taking over. The economic slump hasnt helped either. Once we see a return to prosperity and there is more money around we may see a resurgent interest in space.

For my money though, I think that China and india are the ones to watch as these are the only 2 nations spending more as opposed to less on space exploration. If China starts making strides forward or starts looking likely to put a man on Mars we may see America responding in kind.

[bcbm]

i wouldn't bank on a "return to prosperity" and even if it did happen i think we have more pressing problems than sending people to space

[Dr Mindbender]

i wouldn't bank on a "return to prosperity" and even if it did happen i think we have more pressing problems than sending people to space

I sincerely hope not. The day that humanity loses the will to push back the untrodden will be the day that one of the noblest parts of the human spirit dies.

[piet11111]

Why would america abandon space ? its such a nice place to put weapons.

[Ocean Seal]

You know, this is another thing that makes me miss the Soviet Union. It was them who truly pushed science in the right direction. Their constant impetus made the United States struggle to keep up. Maybe it was nationalism that made the Soviet Union do it, but it doesn't matter. Now that their gone it just seems like something is wrong.

[bcbm]

I sincerely hope not. The day that humanity loses the will to push back the untrodden will be the day that one of the noblest parts of the human spirit dies.

i would like to see more space exploration but i think the next fifty years at least are more likely to be dominated to mitigating the damage caused by climate change and figuring out how to feed ourselves and keep modern society from collapsing.

or it might collapse.

either way unfortunately i think prosperity and space exploration are not on the table in the foreseeable future.

[W1N5T0N]

Who needs flights to space when people are dying of hunger? Why does a machine get to take up more resources than a human? And, why the FUCK don't people come to grips with reality and realise that we cannot reach a space age until everyone has enough to eat and to drink? space travel is possible, but only when it is ethical.

[∞]

Fuck you Obama.

[Franz Fanonipants]

space exploration in the US is based on imperialist intellectual traditions.

fuck space.

[∞]

Who needs flights to space when people are dying of hunger? Why does a machine get to take up more resources than a human? And, why the FUCK don't people come to grips with reality and realise that we cannot reach a space age until everyone has enough to eat and to drink? space travel is possible, but only when it is ethical.

Hungry people have nothing to do with it. Science programs are suffering just like programs for the needy. If our country wasn't fapping to defense spending then we can both be ethical and advance science.

[Franz Fanonipants]

Hungry people have nothing to do with it. Science programs are suffering just like programs for the needy. If our country wasn't fapping to defense spending then we can both be ethical and advance science.

Turnerians all

[∞]

space exploration in the US is based on imperialist intellectual traditions.

fuck space.

Fuck you, like any of us care if there was some jingotards backing them up. It was done in the name of science.

[W1N5T0N]

Well, even if those science programs are suffering, why cant they at least spend money on something on earth, instead of reaching for the stars?

[W1N5T0N]

@BM: nice quote.

[∞]

Well, even if those science programs are suffering, why cant they at least spend money on something on earth, instead of reaching for the stars?


Because people die, theories on the cosmos live on forever.

[∞]

@BM: nice quote.

which one?

[agnixie]

Well, even if those science programs are suffering, why cant they at least spend money on something on earth, instead of reaching for the stars?

Considering what's being spent on space exploration is peanuts overall, NASA costs about as much to run as building a supercarrier. We can do both and stop acting like concern trolls.

[W1N5T0N]

the feymann quote.

[Os Cangaceiros]

mankind needs to start gettin up there and colonizing shit.

[Os Cangaceiros]

But on a related note: I recently read an article in a Popular Science magazine from a couple years back, in a dentist's office. Now it was PS, so it was written for mouth-breathers like myself, but it did make a fairly persuasive case that the survival of mankind rests on developing alternatives in space, because this planet is going down eventually, whether by our own hand or some unforeseen natural occurence, like an asteroid. i.e. space represents some very pragmatic, practical benefits for humanity, not simply some diversion from more pressing problems on earth.

[Dr Mindbender]

Well, even if those science programs are suffering, why cant they at least spend money on something on earth, instead of reaching for the stars?

False dichotomy.

[W1N5T0N]

explain?

Millions people even in the "developed world" are living beneath the poverty line? i assume you want some kind of glorious technology clad world? The way the shit is hitting the fan has sadly removed that hope for another couple of years my friend. I love technology too, and progress, and i do not wish to sound like some stormfront ogre sayin that the world is a disc. All i mean is that a space ship in the sky means nothing to someone working 14 hours a day on a min wage job, or less.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

explain?

Millions people even in the "developed world" are living beneath the poverty line? i assume you want some kind of glorious technology clad world? The way the shit is hitting the fan has sadly removed that hope for another couple of years my friend. I love technology too, and progress, and i do not wish to sound like some stormfront ogre sayin that the world is a disc. All i mean is that a space ship in the sky means nothing to someone working 14 hours a day on a min wage job, or less.

Unless that minimum wage worker happens to be a space buff.

It wouldn't "mean nothing" if the mission of the spacecraft was to retrieve an asteroid and place it into Earth orbit to be mined and produce megatonnes of nickel and iron, and proportionally smaller amounts of other minerals.

NASA is currently limited to fact-finding rather than resource retrieval missions, because the American ruling class has little interest in developing space as a significant part of humanity's future.

But you use that as a reason for dismissing space exploration entirely, or as a reason to "do it later" (translation for the practical: never).

Besides, as others have pointed out, it's a false dichotomy. A rocket scientist spending their time digging wells in Africa represents a criminal waste of talent which could be better used in a project such as the industrialisation of Earth's orbit; the easier it is to procure materials and manufacture goods with as little input from Earth as possible, the more we can do in space and the more the "man on the ground" will feel the impact.

[W1N5T0N]

Okay, i see your point. I didn't think about the resource-mining at first...
That would of course be great, if they could actually do it within the next decade or so ^^

[piet11111]

if they could actually do it within the next decade or so ^^

So if its not immediately possible we shouldn't bother ?

[W1N5T0N]

Well, i think there has to be an ethical distribution of resources to the space programs in relation to resources distributed to people. One should not forget the needs of the people, and blindly divert resources to projects like that. There should be a critical assessment of what is needed, and who has priority. If 1,000,000 US dollars can buy one tiny part of a space ship/satellite or medical supplies and housing for the less lucky ones, which one would be more ethical?

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Well, i think there has to be an ethical distribution of resources to the space programs in relation to resources distributed to people. One should not forget the needs of the people, and blindly divert resources to projects like that.

If the working class is ever in a position to dictate the allocations of resources, I'm sure they wouldn't begrudge a slice of what used to go to the bloated military budget.


There should be a critical assessment of what is needed, and who has priority. If 1,000,000 US dollars can buy one tiny part of a space ship/satellite or medical supplies and housing for the less lucky ones, which one would be more ethical?

That's not how it works out in practice. Under capitalism, the money not spent on space programs would be spent on something else, most likely military in nature. In a hypothetical communist society, there should be more than enough resources to provide everyone with a comfortable lifestyle as well as exploring and colonising space.

Not to mention that although the initial investment of resources into space industrialisation may seem high, it's an investment that can produce an enormous payoff in the form of access to the much larger reserves of resources in the greater solar system.

[piet11111]

Then there are the technological advances made to enable the space program that found their way into everyday use.

[Dr Mindbender]

Unless that minimum wage worker happens to be a space buff.

It wouldn't "mean nothing" if the mission of the spacecraft was to retrieve an asteroid and place it into Earth orbit to be mined and produce megatonnes of nickel and iron, and proportionally smaller amounts of other minerals.

NASA is currently limited to fact-finding rather than resource retrieval missions, because the American ruling class has little interest in developing space as a significant part of humanity's future.

But you use that as a reason for dismissing space exploration entirely, or as a reason to "do it later" (translation for the practical: never).

Besides, as others have pointed out, it's a false dichotomy. A rocket scientist spending their time digging wells in Africa represents a criminal waste of talent which could be better used in a project such as the industrialisation of Earth's orbit; the easier it is to procure materials and manufacture goods with as little input from Earth as possible, the more we can do in space and the more the "man on the ground" will feel the impact.


...moreover its a total distraction from the fact that space exploration is just being scapegoated as the whipping boy of the worlds percieved white elephants. Our attention should not be diverted from the fact that our economic downfall was and is being caused by the bankers. Especially when there is an apparent bottomless pit of cash available for golden handshakes and imperialist adventures into middle eastern countries.

Neither the working class or science should pay for capitalist greed. Social justice and the journey to the stars do not exclude each other.

[Franz Fanonipants]

Neither the working class or science should pay for capitalist greed.

because science is CONSTANTLY getting it as a result of capitalist greed.

you guys are fucking crazy.

[Dr Mindbender]

because science is CONSTANTLY getting it as a result of capitalist greed.

you guys are fucking crazy.

What is that even supposed to mean?

We still live in a world where the common cold, cancer, AIDS are incurable and man has yet to venture beyond the moon despite over a half a century of research.

That hardly sounds to me like science has had first pickings in the handout stakes.

The only ones benefiting from capitalist greed are capitalists.

[Jose Gracchus]

Disappointing but predictable in the epoch of capitalist decay. It will be necessary, after the revolution, for the communist human community to expand off this small rock, both for the preservation of the ecology and the preservation of humanity.

[Franz Fanonipants]

Disappointing but predictable in the epoch of capitalist decay. It will be necessary, after the revolution, for the communist human community to expand off this small rock, both for the preservation of the ecology and the preservation of humanity.

This is patently fucking ridiculous. The resources needed for colonization of space are so ridiculously huge that seeing the stars as "humanity's future" is by itself wasteful.

Space colonization is a cold war dream.

[Dr Mindbender]

Disappointing but predictable in the epoch of capitalist decay. It will be necessary, after the revolution, for the communist human community to expand off this small rock, both for the preservation of the ecology and the preservation of humanity.

I believe the onus is on the progressive elements of the proletariat to lobby and fight against cuts not only to our standard of living but also to space exploration even prior to the revolution.

Every dollar spent on bullets or missiles is a dollar that could be spent on our first moon base or putting a space boot on Mars.

[Dr Mindbender]

This is patently fucking ridiculous.

Space colonization is a cold war dream.

If you genuinely think that you are ignorant beyond help.

Space colonisation is a necessary advancement for the indefinite survival of the species.

The Earth only has a finite time.

[Jose Gracchus]

This is patently fucking ridiculous. The resources needed for colonization of space are so ridiculously huge that seeing the stars as "humanity's future" is by itself wasteful.

Space colonization is a cold war dream.

Okay, well, then I guess when we exhaust the iron ore deposits, or slowly but surely eventually overcome the carrying capacity by simple over-extraction (even in, necessarily industrial, communism), or next time a Chicxulub-scale impactor comes around we'll be over and done with. Right now the resource-commitment would be huge, but then again so is the entire corpus of the modern state and corporate system, military spending, child hunger, ad nauseum.

Having solved this problems, the manifest explosion in human productivity (I don't mean labor productivity, a creature of capitalist society) and creativity would enable investment in long time projects like space elevators, nuclear fusion, or launch loops, which could make development of space practical.

[Franz Fanonipants]

Okay, well, then I guess when we exhaust the iron ore deposits, or slowly but surely eventually overcome the carrying capacity by simple over-extraction (even in, necessarily industrial, communism), or next time a Chicxulub-scale impactor comes around we'll be over and done with.

Yeah, exactly.

There is no place we can go. It's that simple. No place exists for humans to live except for earth, bottom fucking line.

Extinction might be our fate, but, there's nothing wrong with extinction. It's a part of biological process.

[Dr Mindbender]

Yeah, exactly.

There is no place we can go. It's that simple. No place exists for humans to live except for earth, bottom fucking line.



You are talking shit again.

Permanent and practical colonisation opportunities exist not only on the Moon and Mars, but even across the various Moons across the Jupiter and Saturn systems like Europa and Titan.



Extinction might be our fate, but, there's nothing wrong with extinction. It's a part of biological process.
With that attitude I do not know what business you have in the left wing, let alone this forum.

[Franz Fanonipants]

You are talking shit again.

Permanent and practical colonisation opportunities exist not only on the Moon and Mars, but even across the various Moons across the Jupiter and Saturn systems like Europa and Titan.

Inform me about how "practical" Moon and Mars colonization is, please. With costs and colonization processes detailed.

[Dr Mindbender]

Inform me about how "practical" Moon and Mars colonization is, please. With costs and colonization processes detailed.

If the costs involved in the American, Russian, Chinese and Western european war coffers were diverted into space I am confident we could build a base on the moon plus some. It isnt a question of science or technology but of political and economic will. The knowledge is there. For that matter so is the money. Its just being spent on the wrong things.

If its a full intinerary of costs and processes you want then i will have to wait for someone else to answer but to say there is nowhere else in the cosmic vicinity except Earth for man to live is a narrow minded thing to say.

[Jose Gracchus]

For Christ's sake, the entire Apollo program with 1960s technology cost less than punitively murdering Southeast Asia's peasantry.

[bcbm]

If the costs involved in the American, Russian, Chinese and Western european war coffers were diverted into space I am confident we could build a base on the moon plus some. It isnt a question of science or technology but of political and economic will. The knowledge is there. For that matter so is the money. Its just being spent on the wrong things.

If its a full intinerary of costs and processes you want then i will have to wait for someone else to answer but to say there is nowhere else in the cosmic vicinity except Earth for man to live is a narrow minded thing to say.

we could build a base but even in the best case scenario i think it would be quite some time before inhabiting the moon and mars as we do earth became a meaningful reality, which is what i think franz was getting at

[Franz Fanonipants]

For Christ's sake, the entire Apollo program with 1960s technology cost less than punitively murdering Southeast Asia's peasantry.

and that sure did a lot to get us off of this "sad rock."

The problem is, guys, you're religiously invested in a late-capitalist fantasy of irresponsibility.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

because science is CONSTANTLY getting it as a result of capitalist greed.

you guys are fucking crazy.

The conditions of capitalism serve to impede progress in key areas. How is this NOT a bad thing for science?


This is patently fucking ridiculous. The resources needed for colonization of space are so ridiculously huge that seeing the stars as "humanity's future" is by itself wasteful.

Space colonization is a cold war dream.

Since you're asking us to support our statements with figures, why don't you do the same with the above statement of yours?

Considering that space colonisation offers us a chance to cheat death as a species and to vastly improve our quality of life through greater access to resources, even if the price tag is high, it is worth it.


Yeah, exactly.

There is no place we can go. It's that simple. No place exists for humans to live except for earth, bottom fucking line.

Then we should make a fucking place.


Extinction might be our fate, but, there's nothing wrong with extinction. It's a part of biological process.

"Appeal to nature" is a fallacy. Why should we not try and avoid extinction as best we can?

What makes you so willing to throw away something that could turn out to be unique to the entire universe?


and that sure did a lot to get us off of this "sad rock."

Heaps and heaps of data has been collected on human spaceflight thanks to the Apollo missions. Data that will be useful in future efforts to colonise other worlds.


The problem is, guys, you're religiously invested in a late-capitalist fantasy of irresponsibility.

How the fuck is increasing the wealth and longevity of human civilisation an "irresponsible" act?

[Jose Gracchus]

The anti-space types and politics basically come out of glorified social patriot "take care of our own before fancy shmancy gold-plated spaceships yo".

I also can't take the "be real costs bro" whining seriously from someone who looks at sclerotic Warsaw Pact states' gigantic, hypertrophic, tumor-like surveillance apparatus and thinks "wonderful investment to protect workers LOL".

[bcbm]

both sides sound kind of dumb, tbh

[MGP]

space exploration in the US is based on imperialist intellectual traditions.

fuck space.
As you likely know initiators of internet were USA military, I'm sure you don't agree it should be rejected because of it? Motivation for action and action itself, while obviously connected, are two different things and should be viewed as such. Even though I may not support what USA goals related to space exploration are, I definitely support humanity finding more about space and other implications such endeavors have, like the development of technology etc.


Who needs flights to space when people are dying of hunger? Why does a machine get to take up more resources than a human? And, why the FUCK don't people come to grips with reality and realize that we cannot reach a space age until everyone has enough to eat and to drink? space travel is possible, but only when it is ethical.

In ideal world I guess we would all support feeding people over exploring space, but that is an abstract and irrelevant choice in reality. Even if all research related to space stopped this instant for as long as capitalism exists we would likely still have hunger. Right now, unless it's explicitly stated that funds are going to be used for some more worthwhile cause, I think it's better for us to support learning more about universe rather than not.

[Hebrew Hammer]

I can't convey properly just how much this both saddens me and dissapoints me.

[Franz Fanonipants]

both sides sound kind of dumb, tbh

fredrick jackson turner speakin out the mouths of alleged communists is way dumber than the person pointing out that fredrick jackson turner is speakin out the mouths of alleged communists.

[bcbm]

i think that is being a little unfair to people who support space exploration.

[Franz Fanonipants]

i think that is being a little unfair to people who support space exploration.

idk man, i'm for nasa and shit as far as climatological models and etc. but i really just can't manage to see fixation on "New Frontiers" and all that Star Trek shit as anything but a nightmare combination of white man "virgin land" fantasies and cold war cruft.

[bcbm]

i think some of the language and imagery used is kind of dumb/silly but i don't see anything inherently wrong with wanting to explore and even colonize space. at least there isn't anyone up there to be exterminated

[Os Cangaceiros]

idk man, i'm for nasa and shit as far as climatological models and etc. but i really just can't manage to see fixation on "New Frontiers" and all that Star Trek shit as anything but a nightmare combination of white man "virgin land" fantasies and cold war cruft.

That's kinda dumb. A lot of people are curious about uncharted territories and frontiers. Doesn't mean they're manifest destiny rape-and-pillagers.

[Franz Fanonipants]

That's kinda dumb. A lot of people are curious about uncharted territories and frontiers. Doesn't mean they're manifest destiny rape-and-pillagers.

because capitalist space exploration is about touching the purest muse of discovery.

[Franz Fanonipants]

i think some of the language and imagery used is kind of dumb/silly but i don't see anything inherently wrong with wanting to explore and even colonize space. at least there isn't anyone up there to be exterminated

and frankly i can't separate the arguments from the language and imagery, because right now space conquest fetishism really is just that, a fantasy that has a unique place in american self-conception.

[Os Cangaceiros]

because capitalist space exploration is about touching the purest muse of discovery.

you were questioning people's motives for being interested in space exploration, in-and-of-itself.

Don't flip the script dawg

[bcbm]

and frankly i can't separate the arguments from the language and imagery, because right now space conquest fetishism really is just that, a fantasy that has a unique place in american self-conception.

dr mindbender and noxion aren't american...

[Franz Fanonipants]

dr mindbender and noxion aren't american...

the american conception of new frontiers, etc. dominate most people's ideas about the topic. i would say/guess. but i'm only a lowly social scientist so...

[Franz Fanonipants]

you were questioning people's motives for being interested in space exploration, in-and-of-itself.

Don't flip the script dawg

what script is being flipped comrade.

you can't be interested in space exploration in and of itself without having big chunks of that desire made up of ideas that have to do w/that exploration and exploration in general. there's nothing wrong with masturbating furiously over the idea of swimming with anemones in an atmosphere composed of helium under three moons, the problem is that you can't joyfully discard material analysis because you love that shit.

and the reality is, any space colonization that would happen in our lifetimes or broadly under capitalism is not going to be purely driven by love for discovery (a problematic thing in itself).

[Os Cangaceiros]

what script is being flipped comrade.

you can't be interested in space exploration in and of itself without having big chunks of that desire made up of ideas that have to do w/that exploration and exploration in general. there's nothing wrong with masturbating furiously over the idea of swimming with anemones in an atmosphere composed of helium under three moons, the problem is that you can't joyfully discard material analysis because you love that shit.

and the reality is, any space colonization that would happen in our lifetimes or broadly under capitalism is not going to be purely driven by love for discovery (a problematic thing in itself).

Everything is tainted by the economic order. This fact plays into a fatal flaw in some (actually most) models of revolutionary thought, i.e. that only the one doctrinaire line that we support is correct and everything else must have it's roots in the decaying rotten system that we're trying to overthrow, and can therefore be discarded.

In this model of thought, humanity's pushing onward into new territories and even simply wondering what lay beyond the surrounding mountains or seas is obviously a symptom of a mind plagued by too much American myth-making (never mind Jules Verne and HG Wells) and imperialist dreams even though humanity has crossed land bridges and continents thousands of years before capitalism was even a whisper, mostly in pursuit of the most primitive of urges: survival. And ultimately that's what space represents. What is going to happen in our lifetimes or even happen period is irrelevant, as this is a message board in which plenty of speculation happens about things that could happen, and this is especially relevant in this particular subforum, as capitalism only cares about the narrow pursuit of profits, not the broad advancement of humanity through effective use of materials and technology.

And I fail to see how "a love for discovery" is a bad thing, unless you're gonna bust out some bass-ackwards Mao "there is such a thing as reading too many books" Zedong logic on me.

[W1N5T0N]

The Earth only has a finite time.

Of course, the way we are treating it...

[Franz Fanonipants]

ain't nothin in space to survive on.

anyways, yeah. it's mostly just a pipe dream and a silly one at that.

[bcbm]

turn the moon into a sick greenhouse and mars into a tropical resort

[Franz Fanonipants]

turn the moon into a sick greenhouse and mars into a tropical resort

i had a sick idea for an anthology of short stories like basically the moon was the projects and mars was a huge slave-fueled plantation.

[W1N5T0N]

give it about 500/1000 years time, and our civilisation will either have destroyed earth and/or sustained it, or gone to the stars...

But we haven't even gotten a man on the friggin mars yet, and the next habitable plane (or possible habitable planet), Gliese, is LIGHTyears away...

Sorry to break it to ya, but actual space colonisation is a long time away....and i prefer my moon not to be parceled up and sold away.

[bcbm]

terraform that motherfucking rock

[Dr Mindbender]

we could build a base but even in the best case scenario i think it would be quite some time before inhabiting the moon and mars as we do earth became a meaningful reality, which is what i think franz was getting at

I think having anyone residing on a secondary world would be better than nothing. The longer the entirety of the species is anchored on earth, the longer we are at the mercy of the Earth's fate.

To me that is pretty damn meaningful.

[Dr Mindbender]

Of course, the way we are treating it...

It has a finite time even without our intervention. If nuclear war doesnt kill us, an epidemic, asteroid collision or ice age certainly will.

That is even before we get onto the issue of dwindling resources as NoXion has already outlined..

When arguing in favour of space colonisation, the proverb about not having all eggs in one basket holds true here.

If we act now, Mars could be life supporting within a matter of centuries by using the same greenhouse gases that are melting Earth's ice. While admittedly (notwithstanding the intervention of phenomenal surges forward in medical technology) none of us will live to see this come into fruition it would be wonderful to witness or even be part of the effort that is instrumental in making it a reality. Sadly there is not the will within the ruling plutocracy or even among some self subscribed 'leftists'.

[Dr Mindbender]

the american conception of new frontiers, etc. dominate most people's ideas about the topic. i would say/guess. but i'm only a lowly social scientist so...

Actually im fairly sure the early pioneers like Von Braun were German. The writers and visionaries H G Wells and Arthur C Clarke were English.

What does it matter anyway? The human species at large has a vested interest in settling other worlds.

[Jose Gracchus]

because capitalist space exploration is about touching the purest muse of discovery.

Can't wait to touch some of dem space wiminz myself bra

Call me a crazy green, I feel bad for all the squirrels n shit that died when they bulldozed the forest next door for some drab apartment complexes; let's give em a break and turn this rock into a park.

[Franz Fanonipants]

Can't wait to touch some of dem space wiminz myself bra

Call me a crazy green, I feel bad for all the squirrels n shit that died when they bulldozed the forest next door for some drab apartment complexes; let's give em a break and turn this rock into a park.

bro i'm a crazy green and i don't feel bad for those squirrels.

the thing is, there's demonstrably no other place to go.

[Franz Fanonipants]

Actually im fairly sure the early pioneers like Von Braun were German. The writers and visionaries H G Wells and Arthur C Clarke were English.

hey bro since you're back in the first half of the twentieth century do you want me to send you like some kind of sports almanac so you can get independently rich?

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

both sides sound kind of dumb, tbh

What utterly enlightening commentary. :rolleyes:


fredrick jackson turner speakin out the mouths of alleged communists is way dumber than the person pointing out that fredrick jackson turner is speakin out the mouths of alleged communists.

Oh yeah, because colonising space is going to be just like the Old West frontier.

You call yourself a scientist?


idk man, i'm for nasa and shit as far as climatological models and etc. but i really just can't manage to see fixation on "New Frontiers" and all that Star Trek shit as anything but a nightmare combination of white man "virgin land" fantasies and cold war cruft.

Maybe that's because instead of listening to what people argue for, you instead just blurt out whatever Americentric stereotype pops into your brain.


and frankly i can't separate the arguments from the language and imagery, because right now space conquest fetishism really is just that, a fantasy that has a unique place in american self-conception.

If you can't seperate the arguments from the "language and imagery" then the problem lies with you.

"lolz American fantasy" is not the knock-down argument you think it is. Other celestial bodies are real places where we could actually send people to live, if we were willing to put in the effort. The fact that we're not doing it right now is not an argument against starting it.


the american conception of new frontiers, etc. dominate most people's ideas about the topic. i would say/guess. but i'm only a lowly social scientist so...

The arguments I have been making in favour of space colonisation do not rely on exploration for its own sake. They are based on the recognition that Earth undergoes global distasters, and that the vast majority of the solar system's mass is not located on or in Earth.

Those are two indisputable facts, while you're prattling on about irrelevant frontier crap. Yes, irrelevant. Even if some American space advocates support it because it rubs their Davy Crockett boner, the colonisation of extraterrestrial bodies will be completely different in almost every way.


what script is being flipped comrade.

you can't be interested in space exploration in and of itself without having big chunks of that desire made up of ideas that have to do w/that exploration and exploration in general. there's nothing wrong with masturbating furiously over the idea of swimming with anemones in an atmosphere composed of helium under three moons, the problem is that you can't joyfully discard material analysis because you love that shit.

If a lazy transference of the idea of "frontiersmanship" to space colonisation is your idea of "material analysis" then no wonder you're saying stuff like this.


and the reality is, any space colonization that would happen in our lifetimes or broadly under capitalism is not going to be purely driven by love for discovery (a problematic thing in itself).

A problem that afflicts, well, everything. What are you going to do about it? Apart from making asinine comments, of course.


ain't nothin in space to survive on.

Wrong. There is light, water, other volatiles, and numerous minerals and elements. The Earth of which you are so fond of formed in space, for goodness sake, so don't pretend the building blocks aren't there.


anyways, yeah. it's mostly just a pipe dream and a silly one at that.

How the fuck is it anymore of a pipe dream than communism?

[Dr Mindbender]

hey bro since you're back in the first half of the twentieth century do you want me to send you like some kind of sports almanac so you can get independently rich?

What is that even supposed to mean? I was merely countering your argument that the cultural mentality behind space exploration was solely an 'American thing'. Nor does it have to be a twentieth century thing.

[∞]

Unless you have extensive knowledge on space-aeronautics and planetary environments, I suggest you don't make hasty assumptions on what we can accomplish.

[bcbm]

What utterly enlightening commentary. :rolleyes:


always happy to help move the discussion forward.

[Jose Gracchus]

bro i'm a crazy green and i don't feel bad for those squirrels.

the thing is, there's demonstrably no other place to go.

No offense but I don't think social scientists can do any math so I won't trust you on this

So far all you have offered is vague-ass "its bad because its associated with Werner von Braun and militarism and Manifest Destiny....even if you're not American the virus has entered your head!"

Plz po mo harder

[agnixie]

No offense but I don't think social scientists can do any math so I won't trust you on this

So far all you have offered is vague-ass "its bad because its associated with Werner von Braun and militarism and Manifest Destiny....even if you're not American the virus has entered your head!"

Plz po mo harder

Social scientists actually have to know how to do stats, it's just that some like to offer idiotic opinions based on conspirational linkups. That said, we basically found a first planet within the habitable zone of a red dwarf just months after some major astrophysicists had thrown their arms up, and it's very hard to find anything around a larger star.