So....that's it? [Archive]

Sasha

30th June 2011, 16:11

#646 | In times like these (http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/2011/06/30/646-in-times-like-these/)

Thursday, June 30, 2011
There are times when words lose their meaning. Strange times, when decrying junta cannot encapsulate quite what is happening: after all, for all their totalitarianism, the military regimes of the seventies could never have reached the sophistication nor the size of yesterday’s urban control operation in Athens. What happened was not the police attacking a demonstration, it was them attacking an entire city – an urbicide of highest order.
We were there, in the metro station-turn-shelter for the thousands in Syntagma square, where riot police had blocked us the light of the entrance and we chanted from the inside, our rage vibrating across its underground walls. We were there, at the west end of Syntagma, where the thugs of the Delta motorcycle police swept across its narrow streets, on Ermou, on Mitropoleos… We were there, chased, beaten by the killers in uniform that were beating and grabbing people in restaurants, dragging them out, smashing anything and everything up.
In times like these, words lose their meaning – but not without some glaring exceptions. Solidarity is one. It was inscribed in the impromptu medical centre in Syntagma. In the faces of the cafe owners, the restaurateurs who gave us shelter. In the will of random people to help those wounded at huge personal risk. In the determination of the thousands who retook Syntagma late in the night.
In times like these, the monster of power turns cannibalistic, scooping cities, thirsting for blood.
In times like these, the monster wants us scared, wounded, crouched into the darkness of the private.
In times like these, staying on the streets literally becomes a struggle of life and death. We will stay put, and we will win this struggle – have no doubt.

RadioRaheem84

30th June 2011, 17:35

Go Greece! I hope they stand strong and not let the Parliament decide the nation's fate.

Mr. Cervantes

30th June 2011, 17:43

People here must know that powerful forces are at work in curbing Greece into austerity measures.

If Greece defaults it would cause major financial problems for the rest of Europe and indeed for the rest of the world which could cause a catastrophic situation economically for the globe.

What we have here is a conspiracy between international capitalists against Greece.

Hoipolloi Cassidy

30th June 2011, 17:48

#646 | In times like these (http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/2011/06/30/646-in-times-like-these/)
There are times when words lose their meaning.
In times like these, staying on the streets literally becomes a struggle of life and death. We will stay put, and we will win this struggle – have no doubt.

Sounds like a May 10, 1968 nuit des barricades kind of situation, where what appears on the surface to be a struggle to defend physical space (rue Gay-Lussac in Paris, Syntagma Square in Athens) ends up with police overreaction that deligitimizes the Government. In this case that would be a major step. Good luck!

RadioRaheem84

30th June 2011, 18:41

Looking at the big picture, though, what would happen if the Greek Parliament had not passed the austerity measures to ensure a bailout?

It's bad for Greeks but good for the world? What is this playing out to be?

The Greek people can offer the world a better deal but it seems like the world is in the hands of the market and if it tumbles it will take us all down with it.

Sasha

30th June 2011, 19:19

Did you notice much difference during the last global economic crisis?

Delenda Carthago

30th June 2011, 19:43

Looking at the big picture, though, what would happen if the Greek Parliament had not passed the austerity measures to ensure a bailout?

It's bad for Greeks but good for the world? What is this playing out to be?

The Greek people can offer the world a better deal but it seems like the world is in the hands of the market and if it tumbles it will take us all down with it.

By "the world" you mean..?

RedMarxist

30th June 2011, 19:49

I think he means Earth, by the world.

Wow, just wow. The government has no one supporting it and it acts as if it does-as if its a "national responsibility" FUCK PARLIAMENT!

The EU said its proud of the Greek people for taking up this responsibility. FUCK THE EU

I'm proud that the assemblies haven't given up just yet. Im proud that the Unions there are fighting back as well. I'm proud they are(and I know because its on real-democracy.gr) filing lawsuits against those cops!

I can't believe Europe, which claims to be democratic, would favor parliament over the people. WOW!

punisa

30th June 2011, 19:58

IF the people of Greece back down and accept the new situation it will be a sad day for all of us workers globally.
I'm searching whole day about news from Athens and info is extremely scarce - is the potential uprising doomed to fail? :(

punisa

30th June 2011, 20:02

Also... I'm looking at this video:
http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/europe/06/30/greece.strike/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

Why are modern protests so fucking hooked on "peaceful" protests? Even when the police slams them and breaks their skulls?

Delenda Carthago

30th June 2011, 20:08

The worst thing I fuckin hate is the idiots who go on a demo with a "peaceful demonstration" sign. You want to make a fuzz about an injustice that is happening to you, and instead of that, you declare that you are a good kid. IQ below zero...

RedMarxist

30th June 2011, 20:24

right, what ever happened to fighting back. Russia, China, Cuba, Vietcong, etc. I guess fighting back makes you 'terrorists' now in the eyes of the world. I love it when communist rebel groups in the Philippines and India get tagged as World "Terrorist Organizations" by US and European governments. Why can't the governments be labeled as terrorists? WHY!!!

punisa

30th June 2011, 20:36

There should be someone or some group that will openly declare war on the government and the whole damn economic system.
Time of peace is over. Greeks must elevate this to the point of class war - it would create a domino effect in other countries and EU would be crushed.
Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but the day is approaching fast.

bcbm

30th June 2011, 20:57

Looking at the big picture, though, what would happen if the Greek Parliament had not passed the austerity measures to ensure a bailout?

It's bad for Greeks but good for the world? What is this playing out to be?

as i understand it, even passing the austerity measures just delays the inevitable. with the interest and amount going to pay off the debt from the bailout (150% of gdp i heard), there is no way the greek economy can grow and there is no way it can make money to pay anything except the debt, so in the next few months they will be pushed to either push even more horrific measures or default.

as for what that would mean for the world, basically a cascading of defaults and upheaval across italy, spain, portugal and ireland if not other countries and maybe even an end to the eurozone. as for who it would be good for, well it would be bad for the imf and the bankers and the technocrats of the eu but yes it would also be bad for regular people. but of course, the austerity packages they have to push will also be bad. basically the economic situation is not working for the majority of the people whether austerity happens or not, so times are going to get bad. perhaps we can use this as a way to find a way out. perhaps not. we'll see, welcome to interesting times

Tommy4ever

30th June 2011, 21:09

@bcbm: You also forget that if Greece is forced to default it may well cause another massive freeze of the credit markets which could send the world into another major recession. Especially if the fear of the 'Greek contagion' means that credit to the other PIG governments seizes up and then forces those countries to either destroy their economies with incredible cuts or default as well.

It would also likely lead to pretty much every government, atleast in Europe, going on even greater and more savage cuts to government spending in order to avoid the problem coming to their countries and to appease the creditors.

Shit could get bad.

Sasha

30th June 2011, 21:10

The US owes way more debt per citizen than greece, this is nothing more than the shock-doctrine, an crisis engineerd by capitalism and exploited by capitalism.

Rusty Shackleford

30th June 2011, 21:42

Blackscare

30th June 2011, 22:11

The US owes way more debt per citizen than greece, this is nothing more than the shock-doctrine, an crisis engineerd by capitalism and exploited by capitalism.

In an aggregate sense, however, the US economy is undeniably more robust and capable, if only in purely physical terms, of paying off it's debts or at least sustaining itself. This is much more than the weak, heavily tourism-reliant economy of Greece can handle. They simply don't have the capacity to grow like major industrial powers do, which means it's basically impossible for them to "dig themselves out". Hell, IIRC, Japan is the highest debtor nation in relation to GDP but again, it's aggregate economic power is able to stave off crisis like whats happening in Greece. In a stronger, more industrialized country, high workforce productivity can act (at least for a while) as a counterweight to even high per-capita debt.

I mean, if investors and speculators don't have confidence in your economic prospects, thats just as bad as actually being unable to sustain yourself these days. This is entirely a financial crisis. Greece won't collapse because of food shortages or other scarcity issues relating to a failing economy; their economy in real terms is capable of sustaining itself and feeding it's people. Because of the introduction of abstract finance capital, however, they are now undergoing an entirely artificial crisis. Don't get me wrong, the fact that it is artificial doesn't mean it can't be absolutely catastrophic, it just bothers me to no end the extent to which the world is beholden to what is basically a chaotic mathematical crap shoot.

Rusty Shackleford

30th June 2011, 22:32

In an aggregate sense, however, the US economy is undeniably more robust and capable, if only in purely physical terms, of paying off it's debts or at least sustaining itself. This is much more than the weak, heavily tourism-reliant economy of Greece can handle. They simply don't have the capacity to grow like major industrial powers do, which means it's basically impossible for them to "dig themselves out". Hell, IIRC, Japan is the highest debtor nation in relation to GDP but again, it's aggregate economic power is able to stave off crisis like whats happening in Greece. In a stronger, more industrialized country, high workforce productivity can act (at least for a while) as a counterweight to even high per-capita debt.

I mean, if investors and speculators don't have confidence in your economic prospects, thats just as bad as actually being unable to sustain yourself these days. This is entirely a financial crisis. Greece won't collapse because of food shortages or other scarcity issues relating to a failing economy; their economy in real terms is capable of sustaining itself and feeding it's people. Because of the introduction of abstract finance capital, however, they are now undergoing an entirely artificial crisis. Don't get me wrong, the fact that it is artificial doesn't mean it can't be absolutely catastrophic, it just bothers me to no end the extent to which the world is beholden to what is basically a chaotic mathematical crap shoot.
excellent. just, excellent.

DaringMehring

1st July 2011, 05:27

Sasha

1st July 2011, 12:34

#648 | …and this is how the people fight back: Syntagma square flooded with demonstrators once again, after two days of unrecedented police violence in Athens (http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/2011/07/01/648-and-this-is-how-the-people-fight-back-syntagma-square-flooded-with-demonstrators-once-again-after-two-days-of-unrecedented-police-violence-in-athens/)

Friday, July 1, 2011
The waves after waves of police violence during the General Strike of June 28-29 (full coverage (http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/2011/06/30/our-coverage-of-the-48-hour-general-strike-of-june-28-29/)) deterred no-one. Once again, thousands took to the streets and gathered in Syntagma to protest against the memorandum, the troika, the government but also, this time, the police. The change in the atmosphere was quite stunning, with anti-police slogans chanting through the air. The rage of the previous days was there, but the fear was gone. Tonight’s assembly was one of the largest Syntagma has seen.

Filed in news (http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/category/news/) | | Comments (6) (http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/2011/07/01/648-and-this-is-how-the-people-fight-back-syntagma-square-flooded-with-demonstrators-once-again-after-two-days-of-unrecedented-police-violence-in-athens/#comments)

#647 | This is how a police force attacks a city: some photos from Athens, June 28-29 (http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/2011/07/01/647-this-is-how-a-police-force-attacks-a-city-some-photos-from-athens-june-28-29/)

Friday, July 1, 2011
http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/7-Custom.jpg (http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/7-Custom.jpg)
http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/4.jpg (http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/4.jpg)Remnants of a hand-made explosive device used by DELTA police when attacking west of Syntagma. It comprises of two explosive units, one detonator and a battery (!) possibly added for weight. Full size image here

http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/1.jpg (http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/1.jpg)Police hurdling rocks at demonstrators #1

http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/2.jpg (http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/2.jpg)Police hurdling rocks at demonstrators #2

http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/3-1024x725.jpg (http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/3.jpg)Police hurdling rocks at demonstrators #3

http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/5-1024x717.jpg (http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/5.jpg)MAT (riot police) block off the entrance of the metro station...

http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/6-1024x648.jpg (http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/6.jpg)...while thousands are traped inside

Tommy4ever

1st July 2011, 12:49

The smallest bit of violence from protestors makes headline news, the most terrible police brutality occaisonaly gets a one line mention. :/

Rainsborough

1st July 2011, 17:28

Given the level of protest that we in Britain saw yesterday during the much anticipated strike. All I can say is thank goodness for the Greeks :thumbup:

piet11111

2nd July 2011, 13:16

Looking at Greece the words socialism or barbarism takes on a whole new level of meaning to me.

Clearly under capitalism there will not be any way forward and any austerity forced on the people will only delay the inevitable default and we know a delay only means its going to be worse then if it where to happen today.

the last donut of the night

6th July 2011, 00:10

we'll see, welcome to interesting times

*the desert of the real

sorry just had to. fucking zizek

Delenda Carthago

6th July 2011, 02:38

*the desert of the real

sorry just had to. fucking zizek
Yes, I agree. Fuck Zizek.

Decolonize The Left

6th July 2011, 20:18

I heard on the radio that some economic douche from England thought that Greece should simply accept that they will never be able to repay the debt and default. He then said that while this would be the most logical move, it would cause a lot of panic with the 'investors' because they'd wonder whether or not Portugal and Spain would follow, and possibly Italy later on.
If this were to happen, it'd basically be the end of the EU as we know it as the common currency would become worthless.

As for the whole financial situation in Greece, it's important to remember that these austerity measures are basically tit-for-tat what the IMF and World Bank demand that countless 'third world' nations do each year (remember Haiti?).
It's classic neo-liberalism to go to a country with a large debt and offer them money in exchange for austerity measures and looser trade restrictions - then, once these have been enacted at the detriment of the people, the foreign corporations swoop in a raid the natural resources for all there is leaving the country destitute.

I'm glad the Greek people aren't taking this shit.

That said, I'm worried about how the EU will tolerate an extended conflict in Greece and concerned that we could see harsher reactions in the future.

- August

Sundance_Kid

7th July 2011, 03:15

Is there anything we as "foreigners" can do to help the Greek movement? Such as volunteers, funding, or anything? I know there is no organized movement but I feel useless watching it go down as if some reality show.

Coach Trotsky

7th July 2011, 03:28

Sundance_Kid

7th July 2011, 03:29

If only it was that easy, everyone here is busy *****ing about the casey anthony verdict.

Coach Trotsky

7th July 2011, 03:49

If only it was that easy, everyone here is busy *****ing about the casey anthony verdict.

I'd say "that's what happens when you rely on the system's courts, instead of holding our own independent worker/community tribunals and mobilizing our own workers/community defense guards to secure justice".

And then, when they say "but we can't do THAT", I'd say "that's true, you can't do that, so long as you lean on this system, so long as you dare not defy it and fight back, so long as you are willing to roll over and quietly accept the kinds of laws and policies and judgments handed down in this system....so long as you put up with this system, this is what you will get! When are you going to get tired of this shit, say enough is enough, and actually act seriously determined to change this situation?"
Sometime you have to show some tough love, and not beat around the bush with our people. Either we face and deal with our problems with our own independent mass workers' power, or we'll continue to get fucked over.
No one is going to come from above to liberate us. No one in politics is going to come and save us, and if you see any bourgeois politicians coming our way trying to bribe us or to manipulate us, the thing to do is to tell them to fuck off and then to vote with our feet/voices/efforts for our own independent organs of proletarian power. We can't even get real social reform gains without prying them from the hands of the bourgeoisie using own mass militant action, and we sure can't protect the social gains won before by relying on the bourgeois politicians or sellout bureaucrats or anyone other than our own mass militant action and our own independent organized mass power.
We have to think and act completely differently about politics, or we're always going to be fucked over victims, and it won't get any better in the future.

A Marxist Historian

7th July 2011, 08:04

That is not "it" and "it" is not a "defeat" as some posters have announced. Of course they passed their austerity, it's the bourgeois parliament, they play their scripted puppet games there and the people have no say despite the false label of "democracy" -- even with mass rioting they have no need to take heed. So what? We knew this.

The fight is not over, it is entering it's entirely predictable, and critical phase. The fight-back has to continue and intensify. I wish so bad I were in Greece I'd be out day and night because it is a once-in-decades historical juncture. All support to the Greek comrades and good luck!

This is definitely not "it.' The people of Greece have, obviously, not had their final say.

But a new stage has been reached. It has become quite clear that the only way to overturn what Papandreou is doing is to ... overthrow Papandreou. Mass rallies, general strikes, even large scale riots and assaults on government officials, just don't cut it. To stop the assault on the people of Greece at this point requires nothing less than a full-scale revolution of the classic French or Russian type. Nothing less.

And since the movement is spontaneous, lacks permanent organization, and has no faith whatsoever in any of the myriad Greek political parties, indeed despises them all and rightly so, it is at a momentary impasse.

For a revolution, you need organization, leadership and, if possible, advance military preparation. The police must be smashed, the army must be split, so that the workers can win the ensuing bloody civil war.

Hopes for a semi-spontaneous anarchist revolution as in Barcelona in 1936 are futile. The anarchists had been organizing the Spanish working class for over half a century, and the workers had faith, rightly or wrongly, in their anarchist leaders. Greek anarchism is nothing like that.

What you need right now is what all revolutions need. A revolutionary party with a revolutionary program. The task of the moment is to create one.

-M.H.-

Olentzero

7th July 2011, 08:18

What you need right now is what all revolutions need. A revolutionary party with a revolutionary program. The task of the moment is to create one.I take it the parties currently comprising Syriza and Antarsya do not meet your standards?

Shropshire Socialist

7th July 2011, 16:47

There was an article the other day in one of the papers that said Greece could be on the brink of a revolution. Society there does not agree with the government's reforms, and we have all seen the riots on the streets.

My gut feeling on this is that they will come out of the Euro and that they will bring down the government.

A Marxist Historian

7th July 2011, 18:30

I take it the parties currently comprising Syriza and Antarsya do not meet your standards?

More importantly, they don't meet Greek standards. The "anti-party" mood is directed just as much at the whole lot of 'em as at the bigger parties like the KKE.

Now some of that is just contagion, Greeks assuming the small parties are bad 'cuz the big ones are.

But the fact is, by joining these amorphous least-common-denominator coalitions effectively all these parties have the politics of the most right wing groups in the coalitions, whatever their individual platforms state officially.

You have a situation where the only solution is workers revolution to overthrow Papandreou as a launch pad for Europe-wide workers revolution. The main slogan needs to be not just the anti-EU Greek nationalism that is the main popular attitude, which gives an entry to the extreme right, but the old classic call for a Socialist United States of Europe.

Greece is in a pre-revolutionary situation of the classic type, you need a revolutionary party of the classic type of the Bolsheviks in Russia in 1917.

Is this the platform of one or another groups within these coalitions? Quite possibly. But it is definitely not the platform of Syriza or Antarsya as a whole, which is all that matters. Syriza, dominated by the ex-Euros, is held in lower regard by Greeks than the KKE, which itself is rapidly losing popularity, and rightly so given Syriza's political maneuvers.

Antarsya I am less familiar with, but it too is a grab-bag coalition of a buncha different groups, which to maintain its unity has to have a lowest common denominator political line, which you can be sure ain't what's needed.

-M.H.-

chegitz guevara

7th July 2011, 21:04

Why don't you go over and explain it to them?

Delenda Carthago

7th July 2011, 23:05

KKE, which itself is rapidly losing popularity, and rightly so given Syriza's political maneuvers.
Yeah, the polls that show that KKE is doubling its electory base within 2 years are a very good example of that...

A Marxist Historian

8th July 2011, 08:31

Why don't you go over and explain it to them?

'cuz I don't know Greek, have to make a living, and don't have the bucks for sunny summer Greek vacations.

Besides all I can come up with is general historical considerations. Maybe some Greeks might read my postings, agree in a general sort of way, and, knowing the actual situation on the ground vastly better than I do, could act appropriately.

I like the Spartacists here in America. There is, allegedly at least, a small Greek Spartacist group, who put out a leaflet I thought was very good a year ago, that got translated into English and printed in the Spartacist newspaper. Hasn't been much sign of them since however.

-M.H.-

A Marxist Historian

8th July 2011, 08:36

Yeah, the polls that show that KKE is doubling its electory base within 2 years are a very good example of that...

That's absolutely right -- until just recently.

The KKE basically copped out in the last few months, trying to restrain and limit the mass demonstrations as much as they could. This has hurt them badly in the eyes of the workers, who are rapidly losing faith in what used to be the mass party of the Greek working class.

And next election they'll feel it. If there is a next election that is. If the Greek ruling class doesn't think they can get the voters to go along with this crap, there won't be one. Greece has had military dictatorships before quite often.

-M.H.-

Olentzero

8th July 2011, 08:42

But the fact is, by joining these amorphous least-common-denominator coalitions effectively all these parties have the politics of the most right wing groups in the coalitions, whatever their individual platforms state officially.And do you have an idea of what these parties' politics might actually be, or are you dismissing them out of hand because they're not Spartacists?

Delenda Carthago

8th July 2011, 10:59

That's absolutely right -- until just recently.

The KKE basically copped out in the last few months, trying to restrain and limit the mass demonstrations as much as they could. This has hurt them badly in the eyes of the workers, who are rapidly losing faith in what used to be the mass party of the Greek working class.

And next election they'll feel it. If there is a next election that is. If the Greek ruling class doesn't think they can get the voters to go along with this crap, there won't be one. Greece has had military dictatorships before quite often.

-M.H.-

Ok, I do understand you opposing the KKE since you are a "sympathiser of Spartakist League" but saying that KKE lost because of its non envolvement with the "aganaktismenoi" bullcrap, I think its so wrong. KKE managed to be the only party that was less effected by this thing- since it was all about anti-party "movement"- and kept its integrity throughout the whole thing. ANTARSYA or SYRIZA on the other hand tryed to go with the flow and supported this anti-party/anti-union/anti-organised thing and now they have to go back to promote organising the struggle. That would be funny...

Olentzero

8th July 2011, 11:30

ANTARSYA or SYRIZA on the other hand tryed to go with the flow and supported this anti-party/anti-union/anti-organised thing and now they have to go back to promote organising the struggle. That would be funny...Would you mind expanding on that? What I've read about SYRIZA, at least, seems to contradict that directly. There are a couple (http://socialistworker.org/2011/06/28/showdown-in-greece) of articles (http://socialistworker.org/2011/06/22/struggle-of-the-squares) written in Socialist Worker by Panos Petrou of the DEA where he explicitly states otherwise:
It's very important that the political left is present at the squares, discussing issues with people and trying to win over the majority to a more conscious and committed struggle against the ruling class.
It is crucially important that the organized left be present at the demonstrations to explain that bureaucrats are one thing, but the unions and their rank and file are another; that we need a radical left which is not part of the system, but a force against it; and that the real enemy is not some "corrupt politicians," but the bankers, the industrialists and the whole capitalist class. This kind of engagement has helped. The decisions and announcements of the People's Assembly in Syntagma Square are clearly going in a left-wing direction, with calls for strikes, declarations that all workers on strike are "welcome at the square," and demands that have been traditionally expressed by the left. The slogan of the radical left, "We don't owe anything, we won't sell anything, we won't pay anything," which was raised as a battle cry against debt and privatization, is one of the most popular at the squares.
Furthermore, Antonios Davanellos of the DEA, in an interview with SW here (http://socialistworker.org/2011/06/21/whats-stake-greece), says:
DEA, through its participation in SYRIZA, supports a united front of the left involving the KKE, SYRIZA and ANTARSYA, starting from daily struggles and extending to a common intervention in the next elections, which could take place in the immediate future and which will be of great significance.How is it possible to be anti-politics, anti-party, and/or anti-organization and hold this perspective?

chegitz guevara

8th July 2011, 17:41

Delenda Carthago

8th July 2011, 18:23

A Marxist Historian

8th July 2011, 23:39

Ok, I do understand you opposing the KKE since you are a "sympathiser of Spartakist League" but saying that KKE lost because of its non envolvement with the "aganaktismenoi" bullcrap, I think its so wrong. KKE managed to be the only party that was less effected by this thing- since it was all about anti-party "movement"- and kept its integrity throughout the whole thing. ANTARSYA or SYRIZA on the other hand tryed to go with the flow and supported this anti-party/anti-union/anti-organised thing and now they have to go back to promote organising the struggle. That would be funny...

Well, opposition to the anti-party, antipolitical mood in the Square is valid. But here you had, like it or not, a mass popular revolt against the government, and standing outside, sneering, and trying to limit it to peaceful legal stuff was just *not* the way to go.

Hell, the Spartacists have not yet written about all this in their paper. For all I know they agree with you, though I sure hope not.

-M.H.-

A Marxist Historian

8th July 2011, 23:41

A Marxist Historian

8th July 2011, 23:44

Would you mind expanding on that? What I've read about SYRIZA, at least, seems to contradict that directly. There are a couple (http://socialistworker.org/2011/06/28/showdown-in-greece) of articles (http://socialistworker.org/2011/06/22/struggle-of-the-squares) written in Socialist Worker by Panos Petrou of the DEA where he explicitly states otherwise:Furthermore, Antonios Davanellos of the DEA, in an interview with SW here (http://socialistworker.org/2011/06/21/whats-stake-greece), says:How is it possible to be anti-politics, anti-party, and/or anti-organization and hold this perspective?

It isn't. But it is *extremely* possible to have that kind of perspective and be for a least-common-denominator grab bag "unite for unity" perspective of everybody from the reddest revolutionaries to those large number of leftists who *do not* want to overthrow the government, which is the task of the hour, or even leave the EU and repudiate the debt.

An excellent way to prevent a revolution and make sure that it is the fascists who win in the end.

-M.H.-

A Marxist Historian

8th July 2011, 23:53

And do you have an idea of what these parties' politics might actually be, or are you dismissing them out of hand because they're not Spartacists?

I have a pretty good idea about Syriza's perspectives, which until recently at least have been against leaving the EU. The Euro-communists who dominate it are reformists who were a *right* split from the KKE, not a left split. Back me against a wall and hold a pistol to my head, I'd vote for the KKE instead of them, while holding my nose.

Now it seems one component at least of Syriza is calling for an electoral united front of KKE, Syriza and Antarsya, getting everybody to wait for the next election and then vote for a "left candidate" who just wants to improve the system instead of overthrowing it. This is exactly what Greece does not need and exactly the sort of thing all the "anti-party" people in Syntagma are afraid of, and rightly so. No wonder the people in the Square hate all the parties.

In office, if this monster coalition somehow won the election, they would all suddenly discover that yes, Greece really is broke, and we have to be practical, and maybe Papandreou's ideas aren't so bad after all...

On Antarsya, I am not too familiar, but the very fact that it is a loose coalition of a dozen different groups means it *has* to follow the lowest common denominator, unless every last component are burning red revolutionaries, which seems statistically unlikely if nothing else. If anyone can post something from Antarsya that would be helpful. If they really had a revolutionary stand, it is hard to see how anyone from Syriza would be wanting to include them in a reformist electoral coalition.

-M.H.-

(note: this is a major re-editing 'cuz in the first posting I crossed Antarsya and Syriza. Sorry guys, at least I fixed that right away.)

thriller

9th July 2011, 00:11

[QUOTE=chegitz guevara;2167149]Funny how all these folks who've never led a revolution in their lives are ready to advise the Greek people how to do their revolution correctly. The Greeks seem to be doing much better than all these people with advice. If only the Greek people perfectly copied everyone's interpretation of the Bolsheviks in 1917, everything would be ponies and rainbows.[/]

If the Bolsheviks did everything right we wouldn't be talking about the situation in Greece today. The working class can lead a revolution on their own. And we are the working class. Therefore we totally have a right to advise them. But that doesn't mean everything posted will pieces of gold.

Olentzero

10th July 2011, 08:59

I have a pretty good idea about Syriza's perspectives, which until recently at least have been against leaving the EU.Cites for that, please.
Now it seems one component at least of Syriza is calling for an electoral united front of KKE, Syriza and Antarsya, getting everybody to wait for the next election and then vote for a "left candidate" who just wants to improve the system instead of overthrowing it.The piece I quoted earlier says, quite explicitly, "starting from daily struggles and extending to a common intervention in the next election..." Compared with the union leaders and Democrats in Wisconsin who basically said "Forget the daily struggles, let's just recall eight Republican state senators", this is a breath of fresh air.
On Antarsya, I am not too familiar, but the very fact that it is a loose coalition of a dozen different groups means it *has* to follow the lowest common denominator, unless every last component are burning red revolutionaries, which seems statistically unlikely if nothing else.This sums up the problem I see with your approach - you're going entirely on supposition here. You don't have - or at least you haven't presented - concrete proof of the fact that the organizations making up Syriza or Antarsya are reformist, or that they favored remaining within the EU. Nor have you presented any concrete proof that the individual organizations are subsuming the revolutionary politics they do have in the name of unity. You just assume that's what's happening.

A Marxist Historian

10th July 2011, 20:35

Cites for that, please.The piece I quoted earlier says, quite explicitly, "starting from daily struggles and extending to a common intervention in the next election..." Compared with the union leaders and Democrats in Wisconsin who basically said "Forget the daily struggles, let's just recall eight Republican state senators", this is a breath of fresh air.This sums up the problem I see with your approach - you're going entirely on supposition here. You don't have - or at least you haven't presented - concrete proof of the fact that the organizations making up Syriza or Antarsya are reformist, or that they favored remaining within the EU. Nor have you presented any concrete proof that the individual organizations are subsuming the revolutionary politics they do have in the name of unity. You just assume that's what's happening.

As for Antarsya, I have requested more info, stating that I'd like to know more, restricting myself to pretty obvious general considerations.

Now, I've seen a lot of stuff about Greece in the last few years in a lot of places. That Syriza, which after all did not come into existence last week, has at least until recently favored remaining in the EU was, I should have thought, pretty universally well known and uncontroversial. Over the last few years the Syriza guys in parliament made no bones about their disagreement with KKE notions of leaving the EU, going back to the drachma, etc. Can't give you a ref off the top of my head, but on something as well known as this I think it'd make more sense for you to come up with a ref disputing this.

And as for comparing Greece to Wisconsin, come on, Greece isn't Wisconsin. You have a semi-revolutionary situation in Greece, with most people in Greece thinking everybody in politics is a crook and should be in prison. In Wisconsin, most people on the streets, unfortunately, see the Democratic legislators who defied the Governor as heroes. And nobody except out on the far left fringe wants to see a revolution and overthrow of the government in Wisconsin next week. Not true in Greece, not at all.

Are the different left organizations in these political coalitions subsuming their particular views in the name of unity? Of course they are, it's a political coalition. You can't join a political coalition unless you are willing to subsume your political views in the name of unity. Otherwise a coalition can't work. If elected to power, which is what political coalitions are for after all, it has to follow the lowest common political denominator of the coalition, or the government simply cannot function.

-M.H.-

A Marxist Historian

10th July 2011, 20:44

Olentzero

11th July 2011, 09:23

Over the last few years the Syriza guys in parliament made no bones about their disagreement with KKE notions of leaving the EU, going back to the drachma, etc. Can't give you a ref off the top of my head, but on something as well known as this I think it'd make more sense for you to come up with a ref disputing this.No, it would make more sense for you to come up with support for your assertions when asked instead of falling back on the intellectually lazy "Well, everyone knows this, so I shouldn't need to prove it." Cough up, Mac.
Are the different left organizations in these political coalitions subsuming their particular views in the name of unity? Of course they are, it's a political coalition. You can't join a political coalition unless you are willing to subsume your political views in the name of unity.I was active in the UFPJ anti-war coalition for several years in DC as an open member of the ISO, and that was never a requirement. We sold papers openly at the meetings, and had complete freedom of political expression at UFPJ events like rallies and demonstrations.
If elected to power, which is what political coalitions are for after allSome political coalitions, but by no means all of them. It is absurd to paint all political coalitions with the broad brush of parliamentarism.
And one more thing. Your quote pretty much says it all anyway. What Syriza is about is "a common intervention in the next election." Exactly what the people of Greece have complete contempt for at this point. They hate all the politicians and see them all as crooks. Including, rightly or wrongly, the Syriza politicians.

So there is your reference that you wanted. Proves that Syriza is reformist and not revolutionary right there.Intervention in elections is not solely to get candidates elected to government seats. Election campaigns are an excellent forum to promote revolutionary politics and arguments to crowds we might not otherwise reach. Revolutionaries would be extremely foolish to pass up such an opportunity.

Getting candidates elected, of course, provides a direct tribune for revolutionary politics to a national audience. Look at the Bolsheviks, for instance. They participated in elections to the Duma in 1912 and had deputies returned, including one A. E. Badaev who wrote a book (http://www.archive.org/stream/bolsheviksintsar00bada/bolsheviksintsar00bada_djvu.txt) on their experiences. Were the Bolsheviks reformist and not revolutionary for campaigning for election to the Duma? Or should the criticism of parliamentarism be refined to what parliamentary deputies are actually trying to achieve rather simple ultraleft rejection of electoral politics as a whole?

chegitz guevara

11th July 2011, 15:34

Funny how all these folks who've never led a revolution in their lives are ready to advise the Greek people how to do their revolution correctly. The Greeks seem to be doing much better than all these people with advice. If only the Greek people perfectly copied everyone's interpretation of the Bolsheviks in 1917, everything would be ponies and rainbows.

If the Bolsheviks did everything right we wouldn't be talking about the situation in Greece today. The working class can lead a revolution on their own. And we are the working class. Therefore we totally have a right to advise them. But that doesn't mean everything posted will pieces of gold.

I think you're missing the sarcasm.

A Marxist Historian

11th July 2011, 23:32

Cites for that, please.

OK, fair enough. I Googled Syriza and here is one of the very first things that came up. I am no particular fan of the "world socialist website," but they are pretty accurate about stuff like this usually.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2011/jul2011/berl-j09.shtml

Pretty damning, with lots of quotes from Syriza leader Tsipras that are much *worse* than what I was saying. Good enough for you?

The piece I quoted earlier says, quite explicitly, "starting from daily struggles and extending to a common intervention in the next election..." Compared with the union leaders and Democrats in Wisconsin who basically said "Forget the daily struggles, let's just recall eight Republican state senators", this is a breath of fresh air.

LIke I said, Greece ain't Wisconsin, and everybody knows that. Anybody talking about forgetting the daily struggles in Greece is either an insance sectarian or on the other side altogether. Your piece is classic Eduard Bernstein revisionism/reformism, the movement is everything and the final goal ... is running for office.

This sums up the problem I see with your approach - you're going entirely on supposition here. You don't have - or at least you haven't presented - concrete proof of the fact that the organizations making up Syriza or Antarsya are reformist, or that they favored remaining within the EU. Nor have you presented any concrete proof that the individual organizations are subsuming the revolutionary politics they do have in the name of unity. You just assume that's what's happening.

Well, if the wsws piece isn't concrete well-documented proof that Syriza is reformist, I don't know what is. I could hunt up the old Syriza position on staying within the EU for you, but for all intents and purposes, as the wsws documents, they're *still* for staying in the EU *right now,* to my considerable surprise. I'd have thought they'd have wanted to move with the crowds on that one. They don't even want to repudiate the debt, and are hoping for the Europeans to rescue Greece with a Marshall Plan! Incredible.

Are the member parties subsuming their revolutionary politics in the name of unity? Well, if they demand the expulsion of Syriza chairman Tsipras *right now,* and say they will walk out otherwise, then they aren't. Otherwise they are.

-M.H.-

A Marxist Historian

11th July 2011, 23:40

No, it would make more sense for you to come up with support for your assertions when asked instead of falling back on the intellectually lazy "Well, everyone knows this, so I shouldn't need to prove it." Cough up, Mac.

Done!

-M.H.-

I was active in the UFPJ anti-war coalition for several years in DC as an open member of the ISO, and that was never a requirement. We sold papers openly at the meetings, and had complete freedom of political expression at UFPJ events like rallies and demonstrations.Some political coalitions, but by no means all of them. It is absurd to paint all political coalitions with the broad brush of parliamentarism.Intervention in elections is not solely to get candidates elected to government seats. Election campaigns are an excellent forum to promote revolutionary politics and arguments to crowds we might not otherwise reach. Revolutionaries would be extremely foolish to pass up such an opportunity.

Getting candidates elected, of course, provides a direct tribune for revolutionary politics to a national audience. Look at the Bolsheviks, for instance. They participated in elections to the Duma in 1912 and had deputies returned, including one A. E. Badaev who wrote a book (http://www.archive.org/stream/bolsheviksintsar00bada/bolsheviksintsar00bada_djvu.txt) on their experiences. Were the Bolsheviks reformist and not revolutionary for campaigning for election to the Duma? Or should the criticism of parliamentarism be refined to what parliamentary deputies are actually trying to achieve rather simple ultraleft rejection of electoral politics as a whole?

The Bolsheviks in the Tsarist Duma ran for one purpose and one only. To get a platform to denounce the Tsarist government and call for its overthrown through a violent revolution. They weren't running for Tsar!

Farthest thing from what Syriza wants, which is essentially to have left *input* into how the Greek capitalist state is run. And to beg the capitalists of the world to help Greece out!

On the theoretical level, this has been greatly clarified by the Spartacists, who wrote a brilliant theoretical-historical piece explaining why running for parliament can be a great revolutionary tool, but running for executive office, or participating in coalition government, indeed "political coalitions" in general, is a horrible mistake, and always has been.

http://www.spartacist.org/english/esp/61/electoral.html

-M.H.-

Delenda Carthago

12th July 2011, 07:16

ANTARSYA and SYRIZA are in the same "movement" that has the forefront of "Debtocracy" documentary and ELE.

Debtocracy has been seen by more than 1.200.000 greeks and it can be found here
http://www.debtocracy.gr/indexen.html

And ELE(which was created through Debtocracy) is here http://elegr.gr/

What is its bet? How can we trim or deny the "national" debt and how can we find a Corea to save us like Ecuador did. And that is what they are both struggling about. A "progressive" social democrat goverment that will take back all the new laws PASOK brought.

So in a way, giving that KKE's basic slogan is "People's Economy"(meaning the first stage of working class taking over the economy on their road to socialism and communism), we have the paradox of the greek "leftists" being... rightists!

Olentzero

12th July 2011, 09:02

Pretty damning, with lots of quotes from Syriza leader Tsipras that are much *worse* than what I was saying. Good enough for you?Honestly? No. It's not a primary source - that is, the actual text of Tsipras' speech. There's one direct quote from him in there, but everything else is what WSWS says he said. I'm skeptic enough to want to see the source instead of relying on people who are (as you yourself say) 'usually' accurate but who can't be bothered to provide direct quotes.
Anybody talking about forgetting the daily struggles in Greece is either an insance sectarian or on the other side altogether.Who's doing that?
Well, if the wsws piece isn't concrete well-documented proof that Syriza is reformist, I don't know what isIt isn't because it's almost entirely hearsay as far as Tsipras' speech is concerned. As noted, the text of the actual speech itself (and I have tried looking it up, with no success as of yet) would be the proof we're looking for here.
I could hunt up the old Syriza position on staying within the EU for you, but for all intents and purposes, as the wsws documents, they're *still* for staying in the EU *right now,* to my considerable surprise.That would actually be a less shaky foundation than this particular article, to be honest. I'd like to see it.
Are the member parties subsuming their revolutionary politics in the name of unity? Well, if they demand the expulsion of Syriza chairman Tsipras *right now,* and say they will walk out otherwise, then they aren't. Otherwise they are.I've located a couple recent DEA articles that mention Tsipras, but I have to go translate them at home, where my Greek dictionaries are. The Berlin speech seems to be too recent for their paper, which comes out every two weeks and last came out on the 30th, but I'll keep an eye out for anything they come up with in the next issue.
The Bolsheviks in the Tsarist Duma ran for one purpose and one only. To get a platform to denounce the Tsarist government and call for its overthrown through a violent revolution. They weren't running for Tsar!That was pretty much the the point I was making, and an argument for not dismissing political coalitions out of hand.
Farthest thing from what Syriza wants, which is essentially to have left *input* into how the Greek capitalist state is run. And to beg the capitalists of the world to help Greece out!That hasn't been adequately proven yet. Again, you have something that the WSWS says Tsipras said, but nothing directly from Tsipras himself. Much as I shouldn't drag Monty Python into this, I cannot help but recall the words of John Cleese here: "I wouldn't wipe me nose on it."

A Marxist Historian

12th July 2011, 18:41

Honestly? No. It's not a primary source - that is, the actual text of Tsipras' speech. There's one direct quote from him in there, but everything else is what WSWS says he said. I'm skeptic enough to want to see the source instead of relying on people who are (as you yourself say) 'usually' accurate but who can't be bothered to provide direct quotes.

They provided a direct quote, with date, time and place, from Syriza's chairman on a highly significant occasion with big numbers of people in the audience, right on the heels of events. And didn't restrict themselve to one quote, but gave a full account of the speech, paraphrased naturally. So you want a full transcript? I suppose that could be doctored too, if you want to be paranoid enough. Video recording? That could be photoshopped and a voice over added.

At this point, the onus is on you to disprove their account and provide your own. What Syriza is doing and saying *right now* is obviously more important than positions they have taken in the past.

Like I said, I'm no fan of wsws, but given the extensive detail and internal consistency of the account, and the extreme checkability, it has to stand till disproven. For the wsws to claim that Tsipras was saying incredible stuff like that and be lying would discredit them totally, and they value their credibility. It is hard to see what they would have to get out of making something like that up. Given the *extreme* slavishness to the EU and capitalism of the statements as reported, even if they did distort them slightly the case for Syriza's reformism is proven.

If you can prove that they made all this stuff up, then by all means let us all know, as that would be proof that the wsws are total con artists and nobody should take them seriously in the future, as so many people do. Which is why it was one of the first results when I Googled Syriza.

-M.H.-

Who's doing that?It isn't because it's almost entirely hearsay as far as Tsipras' speech is concerned. As noted, the text of the actual speech itself (and I have tried looking it up, with no success as of yet) would be the proof we're looking for here.That would actually be a less shaky foundation than this particular article, to be honest. I'd like to see it.I've located a couple recent DEA articles that mention Tsipras, but I have to go translate them at home, where my Greek dictionaries are. The Berlin speech seems to be too recent for their paper, which comes out every two weeks and last came out on the 30th, but I'll keep an eye out for anything they come up with in the next issue.That was pretty much the the point I was making, and an argument for not dismissing political coalitions out of hand.That hasn't been adequately proven yet. Again, you have something that the WSWS says Tsipras said, but nothing directly from Tsipras himself. Much as I shouldn't drag Monty Python into this, I cannot help but recall the words of John Cleese here: "I wouldn't wipe me nose on it."

A Marxist Historian

12th July 2011, 18:54

[QUOTE=Olentzero;2171101]...The Bolsheviks in the Tsarist Duma ran for one purpose and one only. To get a platform to denounce the Tsarist government and call for its overthrown through a violent revolution. They weren't running for Tsar!The Bolsheviks in the Tsarist Duma ran for one purpose and one only. To get a platform to denounce the Tsarist government and call for its overthrown through a violent revolution. They weren't running for Tsar!Originally Posted by The Marxist Historian http://www.revleft.com/vb/revleft/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showthread.php?p=2170681#post2170681)
The Bolsheviks in the Tsarist Duma ran for one purpose and one only. To get a platform to denounce the Tsarist government and call for its overthrown through a violent revolution. They weren't running for Tsar! (M.H.)The Bolsheviks in the Tsarist Duma ran for one purpose and one only. To get a platform to denounce the Tsarist government and call for its overthrown through a violent revolution. They weren't running for Tsar!

That was pretty much the the point I was making, and an argument for not dismissing political coalitions out of hand....QUOTE]

The one thing the Bolsheviks *never ever* did was set up a political coalition with anybody else.

United front are to get things accomplished. Win a strike, demonstrate against something, defend a political prisoner, crush fascists, storm parliament, what have you. They are not political coalitions with joint political platforms, and especially not to run for political office in a capitalist parliament!

If you can have a joint political platform with somebody else, then there should not be more than one political organization here, or somebody is being a sectarian.

If some candidacy of a non-revolutionary is supportable in election because it represents something good, independence of the working class in politics or what have you, then by all means vote for it if you can't or don't want to run your own candidate, criticizing its inadequacies if there are any (and if there aren't, you should join the candidate's organization or you are a sectarian.)

But that is *not* the same thing as forming a political coalition with reformists! If you do, you are effectively a reformist yourself, no matter how flaming red your flyers are.

-M.H.-

Olentzero

12th July 2011, 19:57

A Marxist Historian

13th July 2011, 08:31

Not saying WSWS made any of it up, but having dealt with members of the PSL and the LRP on issues concerning the ISO, I naturally tend to wonder if distortion hasn't come into play. Only way to see what Tsipras really said is, naturally, to get that info straight from the source.

OK then, let us continue this discussion further after you do. By all means post some of his remarks from his European tour, if you can. Or even an account of what he had to say with somebody other than the wsws as interpreters, as the accounts can then be compared. By the way, I can read German, if you run across German-language accounts.

And you still haven't proven that SYRIZA's stated goal of intervention in the upcoming election (whenever that may be) is solely limited to electing deputies to the Greek parliament. Simply asserting that SYRIZA is a political coalition isn't enough. For all you know of Greek politics, this could very well be a united front.

Right now, "the upcoming election" is the absolute last thing on the minds of the Greek people. What's on their mind is the huge assault on their living standards *right now* and the day to day struggle against it.

Which will lead either to a revolution, or to demoralization, failure and the rise of reaction. In th current situation, the fact that, as you yourself put it, Syriza's stated goal is intervention in the upcoming election pretty much proves all by itself that Syriza is a reformist organization not revolutionary.

This is, in case you haven't noticed, something bordering very close to a revolutionary situation. Greece is not Wisconsin!

What is an electoral united front? It is a united front to elect people together on a common platform. Such as the Syriza platform.

If you could manage to find us an official Syriza election platform, of which there have been many down the years, that could be clarifying.

I promise, if it calls for red revolution in Greece ASAP, a socialist United States of Europe, and debt repudiation, I will be glad to admit I was wrong.

My suspicion is that is a very safe offer on my part.

If on the other hand it is a platform rather more consistent with the wsws take on Syriza, as I suspect, would you be willing to do the same?

-M.H.-

Delenda Carthago

14th July 2011, 00:46

The day SYRIZA will call for a revolution, I m gonna paint my buttchicks yellow and lemon green and I will do the running man in Syntagma square butt naked.

crazyirish93

14th July 2011, 01:06

^^ That will be a iconic moment if it happens :laugh:

chegitz guevara

15th July 2011, 20:41

The day SYRIZA will call for a revolution, I m gonna paint my buttchicks yellow and lemon green and I will do the running man in Syntagma square butt naked.

Make sure they put it on youtube.

Olentzero

17th July 2011, 10:06

All right, I'm back. As I expected but nonetheless was pleasantly surprised to find, DEA published an article (http://www.dea.org.gr/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3753&Itemid=42) commenting on Tsipras' speech in Berlin at the beginning of the month. I spent a good part of yesterday evening translating the appropriate section (had no idea my Greek was that rusty!) for further discussion. I apologize in advance for the XXX in certain places; my dictionary is a good one but it's not a great one and I couldn't find the corresponding words in Greek.

First off, I concede one point to MH - Tsipras is a reformist. The article quotes him directly as follows:
SYRIZA has been severely attacked by the government and this indirectly confirms the value of its existence. This is not enough, however, to erase the political problems of its activity. For example, the XXX of SYN and, more specifically, Alexis Tsipras often put forward views such as: “As immediate and concrete measures, we demand the introduction of a finance credit tax and the creation of a corresponding state bank. Another measure of decisive importance is the institution of a programme of social and ecological investments for Europe” (public declaration of SYN-Die Linke on the crisis and the euro).Furthermore, they quote what I assume is a newspaper called Epokhi (Greek comrades, what is this? Whose periodical is it?) on the EU:
In the case of the EU the problems are not confined to SYN. For example, in the July 10 Epokhi, we read an analysis of the ‘XXX’ character of the EU: “ On the one hand, the machinery of imposing bourgeois interests; on the other hand, the unity of the working classes and a blow to nationalism.”But quoting the speech and the article and calling them problems directly disproves MH's assertion that parties subsume their political differences in the name of unity in the coalition. As further proof:
In reality, it’s about moving towards the outdated slogans of social democracy (Delore proposals) on the EU and the euro, which are very far from the necessary proposals of the radical Left in the conditions of the crisis and the polarization between the capital and labor... Talking to anyone about the EU today, in the age of memoranda, and foreseeing “the unity of the working classes” and likewise “a blow to nationalism”, constitutes a very deep plunge into the traditions of the ‘reformist’ Left, from which the XXX of Epokhi and the XXX of AKOA distance themselves, foreseeing – rightly – the dangers in the (social democratization?) of the Left.I don't know how much clearer it can get - the DEA is calling Tsipras out on his reformist agenda and counterposing the need for slogans that don't drag the Left back into social democracy. Finally, they have a few words about their view of alliances:
The issue for alliances is direct, close ties. In comparison with the slogans of (timely return) in Mitropolo, DEA sides with everything that demands solidarity on the Left... This policy builds – in our opinion – the conditions of an essential and permanent shield of popular forces against PASOK and not an election-centered report on personalities and factors of doutbful ruptures with social democracy.In the face of a unified neoliberal onslaught against the living standards of Greek workers, it would be a criminal mistake not to demand unity on the Left in an attempt to lead workers to organize in their own defense. And, as DEA's arguments indicate, that unity can be built through coalitions that do not inevitably end up in tailing the most backward sections in them.
SYRIZA's leadership has problems. I cannot argue otherwise on that point. But to write off coalitions where the radical Left is clearly arguing to expand unity among organizations in a situation where it is very, very desperately needed is a sectarian blunder of the worst sort.

A Marxist Historian

17th July 2011, 21:20

All right, I'm back. As I expected but nonetheless was pleasantly surprised to find, DEA published an article (http://www.dea.org.gr/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3753&Itemid=42) commenting on Tsipras' speech in Berlin at the beginning of the month. I spent a good part of yesterday evening translating the appropriate section (had no idea my Greek was that rusty!) for further discussion. I apologize in advance for the XXX in certain places; my dictionary is a good one but it's not a great one and I couldn't find the corresponding words in Greek.

First off, I concede one point to MH - Tsipras is a reformist. The article quotes him directly as follows:Furthermore, they quote what I assume is a newspaper called Epokhi (Greek comrades, what is this? Whose periodical is it?) on the EU: But quoting the speech and the article and calling them problems directly disproves MH's assertion that parties subsume their political differences in the name of unity in the coalition. As further proof:I don't know how much clearer it can get - the DEA is calling Tsipras out on his reformist agenda and counterposing the need for slogans that don't drag the Left back into social democracy. Finally, they have a few words about their view of alliances:In the face of a unified neoliberal onslaught against the living standards of Greek workers, it would be a criminal mistake not to demand unity on the Left in an attempt to lead workers to organize in their own defense. And, as DEA's arguments indicate, that unity can be built through coalitions that do not inevitably end up in tailing the most backward sections in them.
SYRIZA's leadership has problems. I cannot argue otherwise on that point. But to write off coalitions where the radical Left is clearly arguing to expand unity among organizations in a situation where it is very, very desperately needed is a sectarian blunder of the worst sort.

OK, this is an improvement, now we can argue politics instead of facts.

What keeps Syriza together as a coalition is simply this, that it is represented in parliament, and its parliamentary representation is reformist. Therefore any revolutionaries in Syriza are simply doing donkey work for reformism.

If your group managed to elect somebody to parliament through Syriza, and they voted the opposite way on any crucial issue, then either they would be tossed out of Syriza or Syriza would fall apart.

As Trotsky put it once, every united front has two components--the horse and the rider. Tsipras is the rider, you are the horse.

United fronts should be to deal with immediate practical questions, a strike, defending a political prisoner, even storming the Greek parliament perhaps.

If they turn into political coalitions, then everyone involved now has the politics of the least common denominator, dominating force in the coalition.

Which in this case is Syriza's chairman Tsipras.

Who is to the right of the KKE. So why should someone support Syriza, especially when you have a larger force to Syriza's left? I don't support the KKE for a whole list of reasons that would be a separate thread, but even on a purely "lesser evil" basis, the KKE is a lesser evil to Syriza, and has more support besides.

-M.H.-

Olentzero

18th July 2011, 09:55

If they turn into political coalitions, then everyone involved now has the politics of the least common denominator, dominating force in the coalition.But I've just shown you an article from the DEA, a member organization of SYRIZA, that shows they don't have Tsipras' politics. If they did, they should have been supporting his calls for a new tax and a new state bank instead of calling them out as problematic. Your view of what happens to political coalitions if they have parliamentary representation is overly mechanistic and is not borne out by the facts in this case.

A Marxist Historian

19th July 2011, 09:49

But I've just shown you an article from the DEA, a member organization of SYRIZA, that shows they don't have Tsipras' politics. If they did, they should have been supporting his calls for a new tax and a new state bank instead of calling them out as problematic. Your view of what happens to political coalitions if they have parliamentary representation is overly mechanistic and is not borne out by the facts in this case.

Except that since they are members of SYRIZA, whatever political beliefs they may think they have, as far as the Greek voter is concerned they have Tsipras's politics, because he heads the ticket and is a prominent person in parliament, and DEA is a left sect that the average Greek voter has never heard of.

If they don't have Tsipras's politics, now is their chance to prove it by demanding that Tsipras be replaced as SYRIZA chairman and main spokesperson. And threatening to walk out if this doesn't happen.

If they don't do this, then as far as the Greek working class is concerned, they have Tsipras's politics.

And it is the point of view of the working class that is important, not what general opinion is in the Greek leftwing alphabet soup.

-M.H.-

Olentzero

20th July 2011, 09:28

I'm frankly not convinced you speak for the Greek voters - much less know exactly how they think and feel - and it seems more that you're using that as a cover for your own ultraleft criticisms of the DEA.

As for threatening a walkout if Tsipras isn't replaced - that's stupidity, if not sectarian political suicide under the circumstances. SYRIZA has the attention of the Greek radical left in a way that DEA - as you do point out rather dismissively - could not hope to achieve on its own. Walking out would only increase their isolation from the Greek working class. Demanding Tsipras be replaced is, on the other hand, definitely a good idea; DEA and Xekinima, as well as other radical left groups within the coalition, should push hard for that. SYRIZA - alongside ANTARSYA and the KKE - has a chance to organize a real pole of attraction for revolutionary politics and it needs leadership that is both willing and able to see that project through. The unity of the left to the greatest extent possible is paramount in this era of bourgeois attacks (both economic and physical); splits in the face of austerity and tear gas rammed down our throats will only serve to weaken resistance and fightback.
And it is the point of view of the working class that is important, not what general opinion is in the Greek leftwing alphabet soup.The point of view of the most advanced and politically conscious sections of the working class, yes. Being a worker doesn't automatically mean you're a revolutionary, and the last thing we need to do right now is tail the politically backwards elements among workers.

A Marxist Historian

20th July 2011, 10:53

I'm frankly not convinced you speak for the Greek voters - much less know exactly how they think and feel - and it seems more that you're using that as a cover for your own ultraleft criticisms of the DEA.

Oh, please. It's not exactly a secret, certainly on this particular bulletin board, that there is a huge disgust in Greece right now for *all* politicians. Do you seriously think for one second that this does not include Syriza? Come on. Wake up, smell the coffee.

Absolutely no party in parliament, and least of all Tsipras and Syriza, is listening to what the Greek people want, which is to say *to hell* with the demands of the bankers for austerity and *repudiate the debt* Nor the KKE either really, though they certainly come closer.

And that's because the only way you can tell the bankers to go to hell and repudiate the debt is through revolution, and nobody in parliament, including the KKE, is up for that. As Tsipras is not a revolutionary, he goes hat in hand to the bankers to try to work things out. Just like Papandreou in the last analysis. Elect him president of Greece in Papandreou's place, and he'd end up doing pretty much the same things as Papandreou.

As for threatening a walkout if Tsipras isn't replaced - that's stupidity, if not sectarian political suicide under the circumstances. SYRIZA has the attention of the Greek radical left in a way that DEA - as you do point out rather dismissively - could not hope to achieve on its own. Walking out would only increase their isolation from the Greek working class. Demanding Tsipras be replaced is, on the other hand, definitely a good idea; DEA and Xekinima, as well as other radical left groups within the coalition, should push hard for that. SYRIZA - alongside ANTARSYA and the KKE - has a chance to organize a real pole of attraction for revolutionary politics and it needs leadership that is both willing and able to see that project through. The unity of the left to the greatest extent possible is paramount in this era of bourgeois attacks (both economic and physical); splits in the face of austerity and tear gas rammed down our throats will only serve to weaken resistance and fightback.The point of view of the most advanced and politically conscious sections of the working class, yes. Being a worker doesn't automatically mean you're a revolutionary, and the last thing we need to do right now is tail the politically backwards elements among workers.

Words, words, words.

Right now you have a revolutionary situation in Greece. Unity of the left, and not just the left I should hope, to defend workers on strike or immigrants being attacked by neo-Nazis or the demonstrators in Syntagma Square vs. the police? Sure.

But if you're in a political coalition with Tsipras, who is a force, and you are not a force, then you *can't* just fire him as chairman of Syriza.

Like I said originally, a political coalition like Syriza or Antarsya is just that, a political coalition. As long as it exists, it has to have a joint political platform to function.

So whatever that joint platform is, that is the actual politics of every group in the coalition. If they don't realize that, they are fools.

And if that coalition is represented in parliament, that sets that in stone. Every group in the coalition is responsible for the speeches and actions of its parliamentary representatives, unless and until they leave the coalition. End of story. That is simply how politics works in the real world.

-M.H.-

Olentzero

20th July 2011, 11:11

Oh, please. It's not exactly a secret, certainly on this particular bulletin board, that there is a huge disgust in Greece right now for *all* politicians.There's a big difference between disgust for all politicians and assuming the politics of all the groups in a coalition are absolutely identical because of what the leadership says. I've given you proof otherwise.
But if you're in a political coalition with Tsipras, who is a force, and you are not a force, then you *can't* just fire him as chairman of Syriza.DEA by itself is not a force, no. Splitting off of SYRIZA won't make DEA a force; in fact quite the opposite. What is a force, however, is more than one group in the coalition pushing for leadership change. That would be the more effective step right now. Though it still wouldn't change the fact that politics in a coalition are not universal and invariable among its constituent groups, it would make the coalition a much more willing and able force for revolutionary politics in Greece.

chegitz guevara

20th July 2011, 17:14

CornetJoyce

20th July 2011, 18:40

"Give Greece What It Deserves: Communism"

http://blogs.forbes.com/billfrezza/2011/07/19/give-greece-what-it-deserves-communism/

Delenda Carthago

20th July 2011, 19:23

DEA and KOE should dump SYRIZA for ANTARSYA.

Greece is in a revolutionary situation, with the masses of people believing and even wanting a revolution. At this point, any support for reformists is counter-revolutionary.

KOE was the by far the most populist pricks during the Syntagma thing. They had a banner, with a helicopter(fuckin Argentina style) and a "OUST" slogan- something like an "Oi!" if you want to send someone away.

DEA is 50 people. They dont fuckin exist.

Both of them dont matter.

A Marxist Historian

20th July 2011, 21:43

There's a big difference between disgust for all politicians and assuming the politics of all the groups in a coalition are absolutely identical because of what the leadership says. I've given you proof otherwise.DEA by itself is not a force, no. Splitting off of SYRIZA won't make DEA a force; in fact quite the opposite. What is a force, however, is more than one group in the coalition pushing for leadership change. That would be the more effective step right now. Though it still wouldn't change the fact that politics in a coalition are not universal and invariable among its constituent groups, it would make the coalition a much more willing and able force for revolutionary politics in Greece.

Proof otherwise? Your proof is words on pieces of paper in which DEA piously disagrees with Tsipras's embarrassing statements. Useful if one has run out of toilet paper, otherwise meaningless.

In the real world, what your politics are is not whatever ideas happen to be running around in your head. It is what you *do.* Practice.

Or, as the Greeks put it, praxis.

That the DEA are loyal participants in a coalition whose chairman is Tsipras and whose politics are Tsipras's politics, who have been represented in parliament for years and with whom everybody in Greece who pays any attention to politics is quite aware of, means that they are reformists, whatever delusions otherwise may be running through their heads.

Now, if the DEA were to get together with a bunch of other grouplets within Syriza and unseat him, that would change. But then Syriza would immediately cease to exist, and the DEA would no longer be able to claim it is part of a big influential force.

Which is why DEA won't do that, and why, for that matter, you wouldn't want them to do that, as being in a big coalition with seats in parliament and lots of coverage in the newspapers, i.e. being a "force," is more important for you than being a revolutionary.

What DEA would really like, I suspect, would be for Tsipras to change his tune and stop saying embarrassing things like that in public.

-M.H.-

A Marxist Historian

20th July 2011, 21:53

KOE was the by far the most populist pricks during the Syntagma thing. They had a banner, with a helicopter(fuckin Argentina style) and a "OUST" slogan- something like an "Oi!" if you want to send someone away.

DEA is 50 people. They dont fuckin exist.

Both of them dont matter.

All likely true, but the trouble with the KKE is that they *don't* want to oust Papandreou and replace him with something else right now, because they are not currently in the mood for joining a coalition of some sort, this week anyway, don't think the masses are ready for a revolution yet, have delusions that some other solution is still possible, and wouldn't have any idea of what to do next if they somehow found themselves at the head of a revolution if it won.

So, while issuing all sorts of correct criticisms of the "indignados" and everybody else, what is their alternative?

Basically to try to get the masses in the Square to cool it, go home, and vote the KKE ticket in the next election. And call increasingly useless one day general strikes once a month like clockwork.

What's needed instead? The old Leninist perspective of revolution not with impossible delusions of Stalin/Hoxha style "socialism in one country" in a small economically dependent Balkan country like Greece, but as a platform for European wide workers revolution around the slogan of a Socialist United States of Europe.

-M.H.-

RedMarxist

20th July 2011, 23:46

Jose Gracchus

21st July 2011, 08:35

"Give Greece What It Deserves: Communism"

http://blogs.forbes.com/billfrezza/2011/07/19/give-greece-what-it-deserves-communism/

That guy is about the biggest asshole ever. I hope when the revolution comes, he's strung up from the nearest street light.

A Marxist Historian

21st July 2011, 11:31

True. I have thought this over for a long time. I'm a Leninist. anyways, yes I agree. the people need a revolutionary party, or at the very least a vanguard of some sort, to lead them to victory. It is quiet clear that the popular assemblies lack discipline, an thus at several points have failed to coordinate their actions effectively.

They need a party steeled for revolution, steeled for war against those who would crush the revolution. Yet is evident that this will not happen given the current apolitical mood and a mistrust of the left/KKE.

Right now, we just have to hope that the assemblies can "win over" the military and stop the police. Quite a tall order to fill. But if the truly have the full support of the masses, then the can pull this revolution thing off.

Well, yes. It could happen. Not likely, but things are chaotic enough so that some real revolutionaries *could* bubble to the top in these peoples' assemblies, and could get lucky. Stranger things have happened in history. And the Papandreou regime is highly demoralized and not thinking straight, and could conceivably just suddenly collapse altogether, like Batista did in Cuba.

But then you would *desperately* need a revolutionary party to avoid immediate collapse into chaos.

-M.H.-

Kiev Communard

21st July 2011, 13:17

That guy is about the biggest asshole ever. I hope when the revolution comes, he's strung up from the nearest street light.

Yes, a trust-fund baby lecturing working-class Greeks on that they should "work as hard as Turks to live better" (too bad he himself has not experienced the dismal living standards of Turkish workers) and complaining that "they" (i.e. the Greek populace) "drove out all the hard-working Greeks" (he might have meant the financial speculators not willing to pay their taxes, who are the actual cause of budget deficits, not the Greek workers), looks really surreal. The thing is, the U.S. and West European conservative liberals no longer even claim that what takes place in Greece is "a small minority of anarchist slackers versus the hard-working naturally right-wing moral majority"; now even as the Greek petty bourgeois begin to question the existing system, the pro-capitalist commentators directly resort to racialist/ethnicist characterizations of all the Greeks "as naturally lazy". This is worrying for its implications.

Delenda Carthago

21st July 2011, 13:53

Dont be stupid. This article is just a first blow on the ideological war the capitalists are going to start against a potential revolution in Greece.

One of the biggest weapon of the greek workers, is you. You have to give us a hand spreading the word out there. If you let the tools of the system win the ideological war, expect the worst.

Jose Gracchus

21st July 2011, 16:56

Yes, a trust-fund baby lecturing working-class Greeks on that they should "work as hard as Turks to live better" (too bad he himself has not experienced the dismal living standards of Turkish workers) and complaining that "they" (i.e. the Greek populace) "drove out all the hard-working Greeks" (he might have meant the financial speculators not willing to pay their taxes, who are the actual cause of budget deficits, not the Greek workers), looks really surreal. The thing is, the U.S. and West European conservative liberals no longer even claim that what takes place in Greece is "a small minority of anarchist slackers versus the hard-working naturally right-wing moral majority"; now even as the Greek petty bourgeois begin to question the existing system, the pro-capitalist commentators directly resort to racialist/ethnicist characterizations of all the Greeks "as naturally lazy". This is worrying for its implications.

Yeah, I'm sure this useless sack of shit Forbes plutocrats' talking head 'works' as hard as the evermore condemned Greek taxi cab driver. Fuck this guy.

Jose Gracchus

21st July 2011, 16:58

Dont be stupid. This article is just a first blow on the ideological war the capitalists are going to start against a potential revolution in Greece.

Agreed.

One of the biggest weapon of the greek workers, is you. You have to give us a hand spreading the word out there. If you let the tools of the system win the ideological war, expect the worst.

I'm trying to spread the good news and the nobility of the Greeks who have the temerity to resist, rather than the glorification of servility and submission that passes for "work ethic" and "pragmatism" among many here.

RadioRaheem84

21st July 2011, 17:10

That guy is about the biggest asshole ever. I hope when the revolution comes, he's strung up from the nearest street light.

Giving the Greek people communism is a big 180 from what Americans have given the Greeks; military juntas.

But in all seriousness, the level of anti-worker rightist bile had reached new heights. They are literally mocking the will of the Greek people and toasting the austerity measures as being best for them.

This guy represents the height of the elitist nature of the upper crust. They view anti-capitalism as vulgar and anything anti-establishment as beneath them and ultimately the mad desire of desperate people. They do not view the anti-capitalist zeal of the Greeks as something legitimate considering they've been living through the worst of capitalist excess/crises.

It's disgusting and raises my blood pressure to hear or read sniveling bougie mouthpieces telling workers to suck it up and work harder, while them and their co-horts make hundreds of thousands and sometimes millions shilling for billionaires.

Let this be a testament to the real nature of the bourgeois and their feelings towards the working class people of the world. Let them become more brazen in their mocking condescension. It's merely a ploy to marginalize elements they know are gaining strength. It's also a showing of their utter annoyance that the specter of socialism is once again haunting the West.