Zionism

[Hebrew Hammer]

So, I've noticed this word gets tossed up here (not as much as some places) but I'm curious.

Can we in the revolutionary left really speak of Zionism as some homogeneous entity? What about Labor Zionism?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_Zionists

[caramelpence]

Can we in the revolutionary left really speak of Zionism as some homogeneous entity?

Zionism is not homogenous (and I don't think any sensible person would claim as such) but all forms of Zionism are underpinned by a common commitment to a political state orientated specifically towards the Jewish people, understood in ethnic terms. Labour Zionism exhibits the racism that lies at the heart of all Zionist ideology in its historic rejection of joint organization between Jewish and Arab workers, to take just one example.

[Rafiq]

From what I hear, Einstein endorsed it, for Arab and Jewish cooperation.

[Sun at Eight]

Single best article (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/machover/2006/11/isr-pal.html) on Zionism (including "Labour Zionism"), Israel and Palestine.

[Hebrew Hammer]

From what I hear, Einstein endorsed it, for Arab and Jewish cooperation.

Interesting, I haven't heard this but I have heard he was a Socialist so this doesn't really surprise me. I also heard that Chomsky says he's a Zionist but (according to wiki) says his own version of Zionism would probably be called anti-Zionism now.


Zionism is not homogenous (and I don't think any sensible person would claim as such) but all forms of Zionism are underpinned by a common commitment to a political state orientated specifically towards the Jewish people, understood in ethnic terms.

This is probably due to the fact that most Zionist writers such as Hess answered the 'Jewish Question' by simply saying "let's go back to Israel," or rather Palestine. Also, the whole point of Zionism is the "support of the self-determination of the Jewish people," in of course, a homeland for Jews. Labor Zionism sees this nation as being Socialist.


Labour Zionism exhibits the racism that lies at the heart of all Zionist ideology in its historic rejection of joint organization between Jewish and Arab workers, to take just one example.

What precisely do you mean joint organization between Arab and Jewish workers?

Note to mods: I'm doing some research and want to get a better sense of Zionism, Labour Zionism and revolutionary Socialism. Don't ban or restrict me for some silly reason.


Single best article (http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/machover/2006/11/isr-pal.html) on Zionism (including "Labour Zionism"), Israel and Palestine.

I'll give it a read.

[caramelpence]

Also, the whole point of Zionism is the "support of the self-determination of the Jewish people," in of course, a homeland for Jews

Yes, and if you read what people like Hess and Herzl what is interesting is that these writers were often willing to call on some of the most fundamental assumptions of anti-semitism to justify their support for a Jewish state - Herzl in particular argued that Jews would never be able to fully integrate or win emancipation in other societies and had to therefore constitute themselves as a separate political entity. Zionism and anti-semitism are united in their common emphasis on Jewish difference and the impossibility of ever transcending that difference in favour of meaningful unity. I think it's possible and useful to counterpoise Zionism, understood as a highly limited response to historic and contemporary anti-semitism, to a very different aspect of the Jewish intellectual and cultural heritage, in the form of Jewish Marxists like Trotsky and Luxemburg, and to see the latter, through their historically-grounded understanding of anti-semitism and its relation to other forms of oppression, as representing a truly emancipatory position on the Jewish question. As for what I meant by the joint organization of Jewish and Arab labour, my point was that Labour Zionism has historically rejected joint organization through Jewish-only organizations like Histadrut and their support for Jewish enterprises in Palestine hiring only Jewish (or "Hebrew") workers.

[Dumb]

Asking us if Zionism is a monolith is like asking a Republican if the revolutionary left is a monolith: yes, there are differences between the various strains within each movement, but as the differences between us are irrelevant to the Republican, so are the differences between Zionists irrelevant for our purposes.

[genstrike]

Of course it isn't homogenous - no ideology is perfectly homogenous, but all ideologies have some fundamental tenets that can be spoken of.

I don't think the revolutionary left does speak of Zionism as a homogenous entity. The thing is, a lot of the fundamentals of Zionist ideology are inherently racist and colonialist, and require displacing and oppressing Palestinians.

Also, Labour Zionism is bullshit.

[ColonelCossack]

having a homeland for the Jewish people sounds to me a bit like lebensraum- sounds like living space, but for Zionists instead of Aryans.

[Tomhet]

Is it not ETHNIC Nationalism which imposes itself upon an entire people?

[Hebrew Hammer]

having a homeland for the Jewish people sounds to me a bit like lebensraum- sounds like living space, but for Zionists instead of Aryans.

I find it particularly insulting that it's being compared to Nazism, like, really? :rolleyes:


Is it not ETHNIC Nationalism which imposes itself upon an entire people?

Define entire people. Granted, some elements within Zionism have lead to expansionist policies to secure more land for Israel but there is no plot for world domination as far as I am aware. I assume you mean the Palestinian people but I thought I would ask for clarification.

I will respond to the other posts later, thanks for the input Caramelpence.

[Tomhet]

The people who 'live'(d) in Palestine... Who said anything of 'world domination'? the ONLY people Zionism oppress are the Palestinians who have to live under it..

[Hebrew Hammer]

The people who 'live'(d) in Palestine... Who had anything of world domination? that's what crackpot rightists say, the ONLY people Zionism oppress are the Palestinians who have to live under it..

This is what I thought you mean't, thank you for clarifying.

[blake 3:17]

Labour Zionism should be understood as a racist ideology.

The wikipedia entry on the main Zionist labour central is quite good: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histadrut

[Sun at Eight]

I would say that Israel also functions as one of the props of oppression in the region as a whole, for all sorts of reasons, starting with the fact that it prefers non-democratic neighbours, and somewhat covertly supports them. But it is certainly problematic when it gets lifted up to the level of imperialism or capitalism as a world system.

[JustMovement]

I think its a difficult issue, and chanting "internationalism" is not going to make it go away. The desire for a Jewish nation is understandable given history, however the problem is that this was accomplished through ethnic cleansing, and enforced through division, war, and hate.

So what are we left with now? A country with with roughly 6 million Jews who are not going anywhere, an occupied West Bank, a blockaded Gaza, and a large minority of Palestinians living in Israel facing discrimination on a daily basis.

Is a one-state solution a credible alternative? Honestly I dont think so, and I think we vastly underestimate how central, rightly or wrongly, national identity is to people and how much the two sides hate each other, deeply, and passionately. A realistic proposal is a return to the 67 border and the end of apartheid practices in Israel.

[Belleraphone]

Labor Zionism is just a supplement to political Zionism. It only solves the internal class struggles that was in the Jewish community. It still requires the liquidation of Palestinian land.

[genstrike]

The people who 'live'(d) in Palestine... Who said anything of 'world domination'? the ONLY people Zionism oppress are the Palestinians who have to live under it..

Except for the Lebanese, and others living in surrounding countries who have been killed in Israeli attacks. And various international peace activists who have been killed or injured by the IDF.

[Sun at Eight]

Except for the Lebanese, and others living in surrounding countries who have been killed in Israeli attacks. And various international peace activists who have been killed or injured by the IDF.

I feel disturbed that I did not immediately recall the disgusting attack on Lebanon in 2006 (not to mention all the other attacks, including the previous invasion of Lebanon) when that original comment came up.


Is a one-state solution a credible alternative? Honestly I dont think so, and I think we vastly underestimate how central, rightly or wrongly, national identity is to people and how much the two sides hate each other, deeply, and passionately. A realistic proposal is a return to the 67 border and the end of apartheid practices in Israel.

A viable two-state solution at this point is probably more fantastical than a viable one-state solution. The Israeli government will not allow for a Palestinian state that has any degree of contiguity and that is not completely powerless. Water will continue to be diverted. A key part of any functioning together will be a binational state as opposed to simply a secular democratic state, which guarantees rights particularly around language and education. However, Palestinian activists and their Israeli Jewish allies will decide this. I'm not saying that this will inevitably happen - there could be many horrors instead. If it comes to pass with a still powerful capitalist world order, there might be similarities to continuing inequality and injustice in post-apartheid South Africa. But I am "optimistic" on the point that Israel as a Zionist state has a high likelihood of not lasting any longer than the Crusader Kingdoms. The obvious difference is that, like with killing, industrialization gets you larger results quicker, especially with all the developed techniques of colonization behind it and so Israel seems or may in fact be much more permanent.

[Belleraphone]

The world powers don't really care about the Israel-Palestine conflict. It's only a small piece of land with little natural resources. The USA has allied itself with Israel so that it can use it as a transit point for attacking Iran. Once Israel serves its purposes, the US will no longer continue to support it and the peace process will go unimpeded.

[Hebrew Hammer]

A viable two-state solution at this point is probably more fantastical than a viable one-state solution. The Israeli government will not allow for a Palestinian state that has any degree of contiguity and that is not completely powerless. Water will continue to be diverted. A key part of any functioning together will be a binational state as opposed to simply a secular democratic state, which guarantees rights particularly around language and education. However, Palestinian activists and their Israeli Jewish allies will decide this. I'm not saying that this will inevitably happen - there could be many horrors instead. If it comes to pass with a still powerful capitalist world order, there might be similarities to continuing inequality and injustice in post-apartheid South Africa. But I am "optimistic" on the point that Israel as a Zionist state has a high likelihood of not lasting any longer than the Crusader Kingdoms. The obvious difference is that, like with killing, industrialization gets you larger results quicker, especially with all the developed techniques of colonization behind it and so Israel seems or may in fact be much more permanent.

As fantastical as it may seem, I only support a two-state solution. Militants on either side (yes, Palestinians included) seek the destruction of the opposing state and they will only be pleased once this happens. I support niether. I only support a legitimate two-state solution where niether side is getting fucked over and specific conditions are agreed upon by both parties. I think this would be the only solution that would lead to any sort of lasting peace between the two nations.

My apologies for kind of neglecting this thread, I will post more soon.

[genstrike]

I think we vastly underestimate how central, rightly or wrongly, national identity is to people and how much the two sides hate each other, deeply, and passionately.

I'm not convinced that the "two sides" (as if the oppressor and the oppressed are somehow both just "sides") hate each other that much.

The fact of the matter is that this conflict isn't driven by irrational hatreds and it is serving the interests of the oppressor to say so. There is a long-running occupation and all sorts of systems of oppression going on - well, it's no surprise that people are going to hate that oppression, and aren't going to be fans of the state that commits it.

I can only share my experience of being in Palestine with a Jewish group - rather than hatred, we were shown what was by far the best hospitality I have ever seen.

[ColonelCossack]

I find it particularly insulting that it's being compared to Nazism, like, really? :rolleyes:

I sincerely apologize If i caused offense, but I do not see much difference between lebensraum and certain elements of Zionism, i.e. having a Jewish homeland. If you can explain to me any huge difference, please do :P

[blake 3:17]

I sincerely apologize If i caused offense, but I do not see much difference between lebensraum and certain elements of Zionism, i.e. having a Jewish homeland. If you can explain to me any huge difference, please do :P

Why not refer to it as colonial expansionist policy?

[JustMovement]

I'm not convinced that the "two sides" (as if the oppressor and the oppressed are somehow both just "sides") hate each other that much.

Please reread my post. I think I spelled out pretty clearly what I think about the founding of Israel and how that division is enforced to this day


The fact of the matter is that this conflict isn't driven by irrational hatreds and it is serving the interests of the oppressor to say so. There is a long-running occupation and all sorts of systems of oppression going on - well, it's no surprise that people are going to hate that oppression, and aren't going to be fans of the state that commits it.

I can only share my experience of being in Palestine with a Jewish group - rather than hatred, we were shown what was by far the best hospitality I have ever seen.

Yes we all know how hospitable the people of the middle east are. The fact remains is that Israeli peace activists are the vast minority in their country, as shown by the election of Likud, not that Kadima or Labor are any better. The Israelis see the Palestinians as an inconvenience at best and an existential threat at worst.

If the Israelis hate the Palestinians, then you can only imagine how Palestinians by and large feel about the Israelis. Having your village demolished, your people moved in mass into refugee camps, having your ancestral land and the water that nourishes it removed from your control, having your brothers and sisters tortured, detained, killed, well that does not engender neighbourly feelings.

The truth is that this conflict has been carried out to the beat of wars, murder, assasination, torture, systematic exclusion, bombs in cinemas and playgrounds, and so forth. Anyone that believes that a one state-soltution is even remotely possible any time soon is frankly delusional. The only way it would end is in a massacre. Hopefully though, we can slowly inch towards a more-or-less just two state solution. I really doubt it though, its hard to conduct negotiations when one side has all the guns, and the other is left throwing rocks.

[Zugunruhe]

I've only sort of skimmed this thread, but here are my thoughts on zionism: Before Israel, Zionism was the belief that there should be a Jewish homeland in the area that is now Israel. Now this state exists, so zionism means, to me, the belief that the state of Israel has the right to exist. This belief can be in line with the revolutionary left's beliefs. For example, I definitely don't go around calling myself a zionist because, for example, I don't agree with the acts of the IDF, I don't agree with the violence towards Palestinians etc., but under this definition I have proposed, I would be considered a zionist.

I believe that both the state of Israel and the state of Palestine have the right to exist and that any violence to ANY citizen of either state is absolutely abhorrent.

[Rafiq]

Damn... If fascists win elections in Israel, I bet they would start an anti-Palestinian/African Jewish/Arab Jewish/leftist ethnic cleansing

[Iraultzaile Ezkerreko]

Damn... If fascists win elections in Israel, I bet they would start an anti-Palestinian/African Jewish/Arab Jewish/leftist ethnic cleansing

Oh wait.

[freepalestine]

Damn... If fascists win elections in Israel, I bet they would start an anti-Palestinian/African Jewish/Arab Jewish/leftist ethnic cleansingthey always win the isreali elections.

[Die Rote Fahne]

Damn... If fascists win elections in Israel, I bet they would start an anti-Palestinian/African Jewish/Arab Jewish/leftist ethnic cleansing

Icwutudidthar

[Comrade Crow]

I think it's safe to say Zionism is racist imperialism and can't be rehabilitated into the worker's movement.

[Zugunruhe]

I think it's safe to say Zionism is racist imperialism and can't be rehabilitated into the worker's movement.Is it? Why do you say that?

[genstrike]

zionism means, to me, the belief that the state of Israel has the right to exist. This belief can be in line with the revolutionary left's beliefs...

I believe that both the state of Israel and the state of Palestine have the right to exist...

So, you think states have the "right to exist", yet your profile pic has circle-A on it?

[freepalestine]

A Warning from Jewish Intellectuals


To the Editors of The New York Times, December 4, 1948

http://api.ning.com/files/9nf6Ttz-TabdzPEYwKcHlG6-NRu4zt6t7vBySayOKhtk1HDjTFkrowzHZ8aXp9WanLNH3XNdDV MGGjFGSx-Gow__/1940JabotinsktinspectsBetarYouthinNewYork.jpg
Fascist jabotinsky spiritual leader of zionism



Among the most disturbing political phenomena of our times is the emergence in the newly created state of Israel of the "Freedom Party" (Tnuat Haherut), a political party closely akin in its organization, methods, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties. It was formed out of the membership and following of the former Irgun Zvai Leumi, a terrorist, right-wing, chauvinist organization in Palestine.

The current visit of Menachem Begin, leader of this party, to the United States is obviously calculated to give the impression of American support for his party in the coming Israeli elections, and to cement political ties with conservative Zionist elements in the United States. Several Americans of national repute have lent their names to welcome his visit. It is inconceivable that those who oppose fascism throughout the world, if correctly informed as to Mr. Begin's political record and perspectives, could add their names and support to the movement he represents.

Before irreparable damage is done by way of financial contributions, public manifestations in Begin's behalf, and the creation in Palestine of the impression that a large segment of America supports Fascist elements in Israel, the American public must be informed as to the record and objectives of Mr. Begin and his movement.

The public avowals of Begin's party are no guide whatever to its actual character. Today they speak of freedom, democracy and anti-imperialism, whereas until recently they openly preached the doctrine of the Fascist state. It is in its actions that the terrorist party betrays its real character; from its past actions we can judge what it may be expected to do in the future.

Attack on Arab Village

A shocking example was their behavior in the Arab village of Deir Yassin. This village, off the main roads and surrounded by Jewish lands, had taken no part in the war, and had even fought off Arab bands who wanted to use the village as their base. On April 9 (The New York Times), terrorist bands attacked this peaceful village, which was not a military objective in the fighting, killed most of its inhabitants-240 men, women, and children-and kept a few of them alive to parade as captives through the streets of Jerusalem. Most of the Jewish community was horrified at the deed, and the Jewish Agency sent a telegram of apology to King Abdullah of Trans-Jordan. But the terrorists, far from being ashamed of their act, were proud of this massacre, publicized it widely, and invited all the foreign correspondents present in the country to view the heaped corpses and the general havoc at Deir Yassin.

The Deir Yassin incident exemplifies the character and actions of the Freedom Party.

Within the Jewish community they have preached an admixture of ultranationalism, religious mysticism, and racial superiority. Like other Fascist parties they have been used to break strikes, and have themselves pressed for the destruction of free trade unions. In their stead they have proposed corporate unions on the Italian Fascist model. During the last years of sporadic anti-British violence, the IZL and Stern groups inaugurated a reign of terror in the Palestine Jewish community.

Teachers were beaten up for speaking against them; adults were shot for not letting their children join them. By gangster methods, beatings, window-smashing, and wide-spread robberies, the terrorists intimidated the population and exacted a heavy tribute. The people of the Freedom Party have had no part in the constructive achievements in Palestine. They have reclaimed no land, built no settlements, and only detracted from the Jewish defense activity. Their much-publicized immigration endeavors were minute, and devoted mainly to bringing in Fascist compatriots.

Discrepancies Seen

The discrepancies between the bold claims now being made by Begin and his party, and their record of past performance in Palestine bear the imprint of no ordinary political party. This is the unmistakable stamp of a Fascist party for whom terrorism (against Jews, Arabs, and British alike), and misrepresentation are means, and a "Leader State" is the goal.

In the light of the foregoing considerations, it is imperative that the truth about Mr. Begin and his movement be made known in this country. It is all the more tragic that the top leadership of American Zionism has refused to campaign against Begin's efforts, or even to expose to its own constituents the dangers to Israel from support to Begin. The undersigned therefore take this means of publicly presenting a few salient facts concerning Begin and his party; and of urging all concerned not to support this latest manifestation of fascism.

Signed:

Isidore Abramowitz, Hannah Arendt, Abraham Brick, Rabbi Jessurun Cardozo, Albert Einstein, Herman Eisen, M.D., Hayim Fineman, M. Gallen, M.D., H.H. Harris, Zelig S. Harris, Sidney Hook, Fred Karush, Bruria Kaufman, Irma L. Lindheim, Nachman Maisel, Seymour Melman, Myer D. Mendelson, M.D., Harry M. Oslinsky, Samuel Pitlick, Fritz Rohrlich, Louis P. Rocker, Ruth Sagis, Itzhak Sankowsky, I.J. Shoenberg, Samuel Shuman, M. Singer, Irma Wolfe, Stefan Wolfe.


New York, Dec. 2, 1948

Image: Hannah Arendt








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matzpen antizionist sociaists

[Connolly16ir.net]

Israel should be wiped off the face of the earth. Zionism is imperialism. Jewish Fascism. There is no reason why jewish people can't live alongside arabs in Palestine.