Anti-Kim graffiti found in Pyongyang

[wunderbar]

http://www.dailynk.com/english/read.php?cataId=nk01500&num=7893


Shenyang, China -- Graffiti denouncing Kim Jong Il has allegedly been found on a wall in Pyongyang, causing the authorities to launch a crackdown to uncover the culprit.

According to one Chinese-Korean trader working between the North Korean capital and Dandong, China, “Graffiti denouncing Kim Jong Il was found on the wall of Pyongyang Railroad College on the 24th; the inspections and regulations are phenomenal. Nobody can come or go from Pyongyang.”

The graffiti apparently stated, “Park Chung Hee and Kim Jong Il are both dictators; Park Chung Hee a dictator who developed his country’s economy, Kim Jong Il a dictator who starved people to death.” One syllable was a man's head and was written on a red brick wall in white chalk, making it quite striking.

“In order to catch the culprit, regulations and inspections targeting visitors to Pyongyang as well as the city’s citizens went on for three days, until the morning of the 27th,” the source said. “They wouldn’t even sell train tickets, so my schedule got pushed back. One person visiting his son in the military in Pyongyang was not able to get home.”

Pyongyang Railroad College is in Hadang 1-dong in Hyeongjesan-district, a place with no streetlights with the exception of above the college main gate. The neighborhood is also within the scope of the 100,000-home construction project, so buildings in the area have been destroyed and pedestrians are rarely seen. It would have been easier than in some other places to leave graffiti.

According to the trader, the authorities launched the search for the person responsible via a joint investigation team including the National Security Agency and People’s Safety Ministry, specifically targeting students and people from other provinces. They established road blocks on the roads linking Pyongyang Station and West Pyongyang Station, Pyongyang-Pyongsung, Pyongyang-Wonsan and Pyongyang-Kanri, then began questioning all passers’ by.

Reporting the latest, he said, “The investigation unit has now narrowed down the investigation to the Railroad College’s own students, and has blocked the movement of people between provinces in order to stop the spread of rumors. It seems they are dealing with it severely since it happened in Pyongyang not in the provinces.”

Despite the authorities’ efforts to block the spread of the news, people as far away as Pyongsung and even North Hamkyung Province know about it, the source said.

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

How dare they tag up the worker's state.

So we hear that students are being sent off to labour camps, in the mean time, rebellious individuals have started to propagate with graffiti. Ah, socialism.

[Weezer]

How dare they tag up the worker's state.

So we hear that students are being sent off to labour camps, in the mean time, rebellious individuals have started to propagate with graffiti. Ah, socialism.

This guy. :lol:

He implied North Korea is socialist! :laugh: What a comedian.

[Tim Cornelis]

This guy. :lol:

He implied North Korea is socialist! :laugh: What a comedian.

Obviously, he was implying the exact opposite (he was being sarcastic).

[The Man]

It's a revisionist shithole. What else can you expect?

[ʇsıɥɔɹɐuɐ ıɯɐbıɹo]

It's a revisionist shithole. What else can you expect?

... If it was really Kim's son Kim Jong-un who put it up I'd say we're in for some kind of crazy family drama.

[Dogs On Acid]

How did the culprit afford the paint?

[Hebrew Hammer]

Fuck that, Kim is a God amongst men.

This graff case is interesting though, not surprising but interesting.

[Dogs On Acid]

I don't find it that interesting TBH.

Just shows that maybe Koreans are thinking twice about the "great leader"

[Le Socialiste]

I couldn't help but smile at this act of defiance. See, I can't stop: :D

Major props to the person(s) who did this. That kind of shit takes some kind of bravery.

[Dogs On Acid]

Haven't seen the so called Graffiti yet. I would like some proof.

[Hebrew Hammer]

I don't find it that interesting TBH.

Just shows that maybe Koreans are thinking twice about the "great leader"

And usually, you don't hear about such things do you? Hence why it's interesting.

[RadioRaheem84]

"Park Chung Hee and Kim Jong Il are both dictators; Park Chung Hee a dictator who developed his country’s economy, Kim Jong Il a dictator who starved people to death.”

I'm all for questioning Kim's authority but this graffiti is stupid. That's like saying Castro and Pinochet are both dictators, but Pinochet developed his country while Castro starved it.

I know people in here are eager for any anti-Jong Il opposition to rid the stench of Juche from the socialist closet but this ain't it.

[Rafiq]

It's a revisionist shithole. What else can you expect?

[email protected] 'Marxist-Leninist' blaiming North Korea's problems on Revisionism, then claiming to be a Materialist.

[Dogs On Acid]

Korea's problems aren't caused by revisionism but by material conditions, like Rafiq said.

[scarletghoul]

is there any country in the world that does not have anti-government graffiti ? this is neither surprising nor interesting

[AmericanCommie421]

The Dear Leader must not be questioned! He and the great Korean Workers Party will lead the great workers state into Communism!

I bet some Capitalist who wants the Imperialists to control his country did this! He was probably working for the World Bank and the IMF!

[Princess Luna]

I think North Korea stands a good chance at winning the "overreaction of the century" award

[Dogs On Acid]

The Dear Leader must not be questioned! He and the great Korean Workers Party will lead the great workers state into Communism!

I bet some Capitalist who wants the Imperialists to control his country did this! He was probably working for the World Bank and the IMF!

Those jokes are getting old.

[AmericanCommie421]

Those jokes are getting old.

Jokes? But in all seriousness, I'm happy to hear there is open rebellion against the establishment in North Korea. I understand the problems in the DPRK are more than just governmental. But, to be a Socialist society and if there is any dream of reaching Communism, there has to be the freedoms of speech, protest, etc.

[Chris]

... does this mean there hasn't been any anti-kim until now, since I don't think Pyongyang is under constant lockdown?

Also, it seems like a North Korean or foreign tourist have found a creative way to commit suicide.

[Rafiq]

To be fair, Park Chung Hee was a dictator who developed his economy on behalf of the U.S. pouring shit loads of money in his country.

Just sayin.

[Ocean Seal]

I'm all for questioning Kim's authority but this graffiti is stupid. That's like saying Castro and Pinochet are both dictators, but Pinochet developed his country while Castro starved it.

I know people in here are eager for any anti-Jong Il opposition to rid the stench of Juche from the socialist closet but this ain't it.
Except Castro did develop his country. And while I agree that Park is another dictator who wouldn't have developed his country without US aid, I think we should point out the fact that as of now North Korea is poor because of Kim Jong-Il's mistakes. If there are people starving, then you're not doing it right.

[Revolutionair]

Pics or gtfo.

[a rebel]

I once saw a documentary about a bunch of doctors who went to North Korea to perform several cataract surgeries. They interviewed a few people, and when asked if their "great leader" could ever do anything wrong, no one understood the question. I'm not sure if they were that brainwashed, or if the secret police were over their shoulder. Probably both

[KC]

Except Castro did develop his country. And while I agree that Park is another dictator who wouldn't have developed his country without US aid, I think we should point out the fact that as of now North Korea is poor because of Kim Jong-Il's mistakes. If there are people starving, then you're not doing it right.


In what sense? I remember reading some economic data that showed GDP actually drop between Batista and Castro, and that between the revolution, the collapse of the Soviet bloc and the current economic crisis it hasn't grown much at all.

I could be wrong, though. I'm on my phone I'll check when I get home.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

In what sense? I remember reading some economic data that showed GDP actually drop between Batista and Castro, and that between the revolution, the collapse of the Soviet bloc and the current economic crisis it hasn't grown much at all.

I could be wrong, though. I'm on my phone I'll check when I get home.

Growth has been unstable, varying between 5-11%+ and negative.

[punisa]

There should not be a minute of rest until this evil prankster is caught and brought to justice. I suggest that he suffers the utmost punishment and be executed by none other then the dear leader himself.

But seriously, if no pics are available it is very likely just another hoax.
Sure, Kim is a dictator and sooner or later his people will figure that one out.
But you gotta respect his taste in fine alcohol, apparently he chugs only the best hennessy bottles.

[NoOneIsIllegal]

RAAN has come to DPRK?
MAKE TOTAL DESTROY!

[RadioRaheem84]

Except Castro did develop his country. And while I agree that Park is another dictator who wouldn't have developed his country without US aid, I think we should point out the fact that as of now North Korea is poor because of Kim Jong-Il's mistakes. If there are people starving, then you're not doing it right.

I know Castro developed his country. The point was that it seems more like anti-communist graffiti than anything else.

[Rafiq]

Growth has been unstable, varying between 5-11%+ and negative.

? I thought 10% growth a year is good?

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

is there any country in the world that does not have anti-government graffiti ? this is neither surprising nor interesting

The reaction of the authorities is what is interesting, but I agree, not surprising in the slightest.

[Blackscare]

lol @ people demanding pics (even jokingly). I guess you could check Kim's FB wall or something, aside from that I wonder how exactly you think something like that would get out.

It's probably been said in the other thread, but I have a feeling that this, and maybe a few other incidents, has something to do with the herding of all the college kids into the countryside and the closing of universities.

[Ben Barton]

Hear me out till the end everyone, i think you'll find it worthwhile :)

To be honest, i think that if talking about ol' Kim or his pathetic oligarchy, it should be under the "opposing ideologies" section because North Korea’s extreme, nationalist regime is, in fact, a national socialist state (effectively fascist), and not communist. The average North Korean doesn't know much about their country's political system, only that they cannot say a word against it. Kim Jong Il keeps the working masses ignorant of the basic rights that are granted them, which include freedom of speech and demonstration. But just because Pyongyang's policies are meaningless and aren't normally stuck to, does not mean that frequent alterations to them are not noticed.

This is why the latest version of North Korean policy, recently made public by the South Korean government, is worth paying attention to. From what I have read, It lacks any mention of communism, while referring constantly to the "military-first" National Socialism that has guided the regime since the revolution was successful in the 40’s. It also, unsurprisingly, designates Kim Jong Il, as "supreme leader" of the country, giving him control of everything, and I mean everything.

Despite the world media's tradition of referring to North Korea as a "hard-line communist" state, it has never been anything of the sort. From its beginning in 1945 the regime has created a racist, nationalistic and unequal environment that has nothing to do with Marxism-Leninism or indeed any form of communism. North Korea is comparable to the Japan of the 1930s, another "national socialist state" that put military actions and sustainment of the government above the basic needs of the people.

North Korea is national socialist and must be seen on the far right and not the far left of the political spectrum. The only thing that has changed over the past 15 years is the country's ability to show its true colours to the world. Capitalism still exists very much in North Korea, but Instead of stopping this, it tries to control and monitor these markets to make the leader at the top as powerful as possible. In short, Kim Jong IL wants complete control over the economy to pump as much money as possible into the army, forgetting completely about the welfare of his people in the process. Stalin doesn't enter into the equation, let alone Marx or Lenin.

So far, people have never been interested enough in North Korean ideology to look beyond Pyongyang's cold war alliance with communist states. But with the recent Scare between North and South Korea, people have begun to realise what kind of a leader Kim is, he is a leader who will, by any means possible, increase his country's military might without looking at the consequences. Kim realises that he cannot disarm his weapons without toppling his own government, so what’s his answer? Suppress the people and make his country as powerful as possible. This unfortunately means that negotiations with him are extremely unlikely to succeed.

North Korea has fully implemented military-first politics as the basic ruling system since the death of Kim Il Sung, this is now known as a Juche, it replaced the people with the military as the revolutionary force and places complete, undemocratic control in the hands of the leader, for society it means nothing is received from the government, the people are out for themselves and are forced to be self reliant, this way Kim is able to pin the famine and starvation of his people in state propaganda, he actually said once that the people are not “trying hard enough”, I mean honestly, it is like one big Nazi concentration camp! By adding Juche policy as a leadership ideology, North Korea is able to create a strict military state. The military-first doctrine is not at the same level as the Juche ideology, but more of a warped version of it, the government using parts that suit them

China believes that becoming a communist state is a long process that takes over 100 years. It is a semi-socialist country with extreme economical growth and states that by 2051 it will have begun the dissolution of the government and the start of “true communism”. North Korea is more interested in solving immediate challenges, not often looking to the future though in 2012, Pyongyang says it will become a powerful and prosperous nation, yeah right.

All in all I hope that I have successfully cleared up the cold war era myth that the DPRK is at all communist, it is not and has never been, and i doubt it ever will be unless maybe china invades after a few hundred years!

[Dogs On Acid]

Hear me out till the end everyone, i think you'll find it worthwhile :)

To be honest, i think that if talking about ol' Kim or his pathetic oligarchy, it should be under the "opposing ideologies" section because North Korea’s extreme, nationalist regime is, in fact, a national socialist state (effectively fascist), and not communist. The average North Korean doesn't know much about their country's political system, only that they cannot say a word against it. Kim Jong Il keeps the working masses ignorant of the basic rights that are granted them, which include freedom of speech and demonstration. But just because Pyongyang's policies are meaningless and aren't normally stuck to, does not mean that frequent alterations to them are not noticed.

This is why the latest version of North Korean policy, recently made public by the South Korean government, is worth paying attention to. From what I have read, It lacks any mention of communism, while referring constantly to the "military-first" National Socialism that has guided the regime since the revolution was successful in the 40’s. It also, unsurprisingly, designates Kim Jong Il, as "supreme leader" of the country, giving him control of everything, and I mean everything.

Despite the world media's tradition of referring to North Korea as a "hard-line communist" state, it has never been anything of the sort. From its beginning in 1945 the regime has created a racist, nationalistic and unequal environment that has nothing to do with Marxism-Leninism or indeed any form of communism. North Korea is comparable to the Japan of the 1930s, another "national socialist state" that put military actions and sustainment of the government above the basic needs of the people.

North Korea is national socialist and must be seen on the far right and not the far left of the political spectrum. The only thing that has changed over the past 15 years is the country's ability to show its true colours to the world. Capitalism still exists very much in North Korea, but Instead of stopping this, it tries to control and monitor these markets to make the leader at the top as powerful as possible. In short, Kim Jong IL wants complete control over the economy to pump as much money as possible into the army, forgetting completely about the welfare of his people in the process. Stalin doesn't enter into the equation, let alone Marx or Lenin.

So far, people have never been interested enough in North Korean ideology to look beyond Pyongyang's cold war alliance with communist states. But with the recent Scare between North and South Korea, people have begun to realise what kind of a leader Kim is, he is a leader who will, by any means possible, increase his country's military might without looking at the consequences. Kim realises that he cannot disarm his weapons without toppling his own government, so what’s his answer? Suppress the people and make his country as powerful as possible. This unfortunately means that negotiations with him are extremely unlikely to succeed.

North Korea has fully implemented military-first politics as the basic ruling system since the death of Kim Il Sung, this is now known as a Juche, it replaced the people with the military as the revolutionary force and places complete, undemocratic control in the hands of the leader, for society it means nothing is received from the government, the people are out for themselves and are forced to be self reliant, this way Kim is able to pin the famine and starvation of his people in state propaganda, he actually said once that the people are not “trying hard enough”, I mean honestly, it is like one big Nazi concentration camp! By adding Juche policy as a leadership ideology, North Korea is able to create a strict military state. The military-first doctrine is not at the same level as the Juche ideology, but more of a warped version of it, the government using parts that suit them

China believes that becoming a communist state is a long process that takes over 100 years. It is a semi-socialist country with extreme economical growth and states that by 2051 it will have begun the dissolution of the government and the start of “true communism”. North Korea is more interested in solving immediate challenges, not often looking to the future though in 2012, Pyongyang says it will become a powerful and prosperous nation, yeah right.

All in all I hope that I have successfully cleared up the cold war era myth that the DPRK is at all communist, it is not and has never been, and i doubt it ever will be unless maybe china invades after a few hundred years!

North Korea aren't Nazis. I think you are getting Fascism and National Socialism all mixed up.

And Pyongyang isn't a Nation. It's a city...

[jake williams]

is there any country in the world that does not have anti-government graffiti ? this is neither surprising nor interesting
I think the point is the absurd overreaction. (Of course, the alleged reaction: It could be true, but it's coming from a well-funded propaganda website and none of the information on it can be independently verified by anyone here. The tendancy to call all criticism of North Korea "lies" is about as rational as assuming it's all true.)


Korea's problems aren't caused by revisionism but by material conditions, like Rafiq said.
I don't think that's a materialist way to look at it either. The revisionist ideology of the state is caused by the material conditions it faces. But that ideology isn't without effect.

[Dogs On Acid]

I don't think that's a materialist way to look at it either. The revisionist ideology of the state is caused by the material conditions it faces. But that ideology isn't without effect.

Absolutely comrade. I should of expressed myself better.

What I meant was that the problems of NK don't stem from the revisionism itself, but by the material conditions that lead to the revisionism.

i.e. I reject the conception of Revisionism -> problems

And support Material factors -> Revisionism -> problems

So the material conditions are the cause of the problems, Revisionism is simply an intermediary and not the source of the difficulty itself.

This is the problem with Marxism-Leninism. One size doesn't fit all. Revisionism is simply a form of adapting a theory to a material condition it wasn't created for.

[Apoi_Viitor]

[B][SIZE="3"]
China believes that becoming a communist state is a long process that takes over 100 years. It is a semi-socialist country with extreme economical growth and states that by 2051 it will have begun the dissolution of the government and the start of “true communism”.

What?

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

? I thought 10% growth a year is good?

As I said, it has fluctuated between + and almost as high negative growth to the point where it has barely moved forward, and in the last 20 years since the fall, things have not been very good at all, in many aspect's there has been a decline in living standards; it has seen the resurgences of water-born illnesses for example, a thing that once was completely eradicated, but decaying infrastructure in the wake of the end of the trade arrangements with the Soviet Union heralded its return- and with the capitalist reforms now ongoing and doubtless more of that toxin to be injected, the situation is unlikely to improve much, if any.

[Dogs On Acid]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/Rent-Cuba-Carib.png

[Ben Barton]

Sorry, you do realise that the National Socialist German Workers Party or the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei, was shortened by the press as the 'Nazi's" and was hitlers party, yes?

I fail to understand how anyone can defend Kim and his sick regime!

[Dogs On Acid]

Sorry, you do realise that the National Socialist German Workers Party or the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei, was shortened by the press as the 'Nazi's" and was hitlers party, yes?

I fail to understand how anyone can defend Kim and his sick regime!

Yes. And NK has nothing to do with National Socialism.

And don't start the "How can anyone support him/her". It's unproductive and useless.

[Q]

How is graffiti big news? I think the North Korean regime needs to reorder its priorities than waste resources against this "dire threat".

[ZeroNowhere]

Those jokes are getting old.They would get old if people didn't stop saying them seriously.

[NoOneIsIllegal]

It's a revisionist shithole. What else can you expect?
I love you and all, but dude... you're trying too hard.

[☭The Revolution☭]

They shut down the entire country because a kid decided to do some graffiti. I'd feel proud.

[Rafiq]

obviously this kid was really a South Korean revisionist agent of imperialism.

[Sam_b]

Hear me out till the end everyone, i think you'll find it worthwhile

Unsurprisingly it was not, and you have a flawed understanding of several concepts you're talking about.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/Rent-Cuba-Carib.png

But the differences felt by regular working people living in those countries varies greatly from what's shown on that chart.

For example as decrepit as it is, housing is generally a hell of a lot better in Cuba than it is in the Dominican Republic or El Salvador where huge numbers of people live in shacks thrown together with scrap metal and other materials.

And you would be able to find a lot more starving people in the latter two.

[Leftsolidarity]

Whoever did that is awesome. I did some nice graffitti not too long ago but my city didn't get locked down. I feel as if I'm not doing my job now.

[Fulanito de Tal]

Regarding the OP, how much did the CIA pay them to do that?

[Leftsolidarity]

Regarding the OP, how much did the CIA pay them to do that?

Oh yes because the DPRK just COULDN'T have citizens who are not happy with their dictator :rolleyes:

[Fulanito de Tal]

Oh yes because the DPRK just COULDN'T have citizens who are not happy with their dictator :rolleyes:

Oh yes because the CIA just never paid anyone to protest against their system :rolleyes:

[Leftsolidarity]

Oh yes because the CIA just never paid anyone to protest against their system :rolleyes:

Does that mean that any form of protest in another country is a CIA operation?

Is your tin-foil hat comfy?

[Fulanito de Tal]

Does that mean that any form of protest in another country is a CIA operation?

No, it means that no form of protest in another country is a CIA operation.


Is your tin-foil hat comfy?

How did you know I was wearing a tin-foil hat? Are you part of the CIA?

[Leftsolidarity]

No, it means that no form of protest in another country is a CIA operation.



Maybe it's because I'm tired but that made absolutely no sense to me.


How did you know I was wearing a tin-foil hat? Are you part of the CIA?

Yes

[flobdob]

Any distortion of what he's saying aside, it's certainly true that the CIA have used astroturfing techniques before to attack countries taking a stance against imperialism - which indeed includes the use of graffiti. An excellent example is Grenada, where the CIA fought a psychological war against socialism; most famous is perhaps the comic book (http://www.ep.tc/grenada/) airdropped en masse on the island, but they also daubed graffiti on walls in cities there. You can still see some of it if you walk about 10 minutes of of St Georges in the direction of the airport.

That's not necessarily to say that is what this is; but with the history of imperialist aggression to the DPRK and recent tactical shifts by US imperialism to make counterrevolution seem like popular movements, I wouldnt be suprised. It's presence means relatively little, as Zenga Zenga pointed out earlier.

[Leftsolidarity]

It's presence means relatively little, as Zenga Zenga pointed out earlier.

The reaction proves a lot more though

[Wanted Man]

The reaction proves a lot more though

True, I've never seen so many people on this forum applauding a pro-military junta graffiti. "Batista and Castro are both dictators, but at least Batista developed the economy."

So anyway, yeah. HEY YOU SILLY STALINITSS SEEM TO THINK THAT NK IS PARADISE ON EARTH AND KIM JONG-IL IS A GOD ON EARTH, BUT HE'S ACTUALLY AN EVIL DICKTATER. WHY DONT U GO LIVE THERE? LOL I PWNED U!!111

[Os Cangaceiros]

Isn't the DPRK a military junta as it stands today?

I mean, the military are pretty big power brokers there, to put it extremely mildly.

[Os Cangaceiros]

And anyway, it isn't the graffiti itself that's interesting. Taken on it's own it's pretty meaningless, actually.

It's the reaction involving multiple state agencies and roadblocks to uncover the culprit that's absurd, if this story is actually true.

[agnixie]

Isn't the DPRK a military junta as it stands today?

I mean, the military are pretty big power brokers there, to put it extremely mildly.

Yes but North Korea is a military junta Stalin happened to want on his side. For some unfathomable reason.

[Ben Barton]

And don't start the "How can anyone support him/her". It's unproductive and useless.



Unproductive to who may i ask? You perhaps? Seeing as though you seem to have no defence other than to denounce and ridicule statements made against your beliefs, if you feel so opposed to what i am saying, create an actual argument with facts supporting your views.

You see, it would be extremely easy for me to go around to people who oppose my way of thinking and simply slander their argument without any point or reason to back it up but i always try to research my arguments first.

I am simply saying, argue with me by all means, don't just disagree with everything i say with no grounds on wich to do.

[Rooster]

I don't think that's a materialist way to look at it either. The revisionist ideology of the state is caused by the material conditions it faces. But that ideology isn't without effect.

How does that make sense? Wouldn't that then mean that the USSR was not revisionist after Stalin because the material conditions and productive forces did not decrease?