Greek revolution live

[Bandito]

Follow the situation outside the Parlament live on this link. (http://eagainst.com/articles/live-from-the-parliament-of-greece/)

11.00 At the port of Pireus, since early in the morning, dockworkers as well as members of PAME (of the so-called ‘Communist’ Party of Greece) seized the ships’ launchers, blocking the sailing from the central port of the country. In Athens approximately 25,000 people have gathered in front of the parliament, mainly demonstrators of PAME.


01.01 GMT+2 Prisons across Greece: Excerpt of a prisoners’ text about the mid-term memorandum — ‘[...] Prisons are a mechanism which is based on poverty and reproduces inequalities and injustice. Prisons are an unjust and inhumane mechanism which demoralizes and enrages people. It is a class and antisocial mechanism which should be abolished. We know that there is no potential for basic living problems’ substantial solution inside prisons because, as we said before, life behind prison walls becomes even more difficult due to the crisis. Hence, the main slogan of inmates in Greek prisons today is “Immediate release of all prisoners.” Today our own struggle cannot but be common. Common among all prisoners, common among all the oppressed of all nationalities who are in the streets and squares of Greek cities. Let’s start here and now a real confrontational struggle that will prevent the mid-term memorandum’s voting. And the only way to do so is to factually threaten the political and economic system’s function. [...]’ This text is co-signed by a total of 468 women and men inmates of the prisons: Koridallos (also F male wing), Ioannina, Avlona, Nafplion and Corfu. At least 789 women and men prisoners decided to remain outside the prison cells during the midday closing in: Koridallos (also A, D, F male wings), Diavata, Amfissa, D1 male wing of Grevena. A total of 1,508 inmates will protest via abstention from mess in: Grevena, B male wing of Larissa, Ioannina, Avlona, Malandrino, Diavata and Cassandra in Thessaloniki. On the day of the mid-term memorandum’s voting, the prisoners protest against the financial and political impasse in which the Greek society is situated, against the country’s occupation by the big Capital, against the parliamentary junta. This mobilization is also held in solidarity with those who fight in cities’ streets and squares across Greece.


00.00 GMT+2 Arta, western Greece: Dozens of workers and solidaritarians blocked the entry of the poultry cooperative’s factory of the city. They had decided to blockade the factory throughout the entire 48hour general strike, but the blockade ended at about 4.30 am. Reports mention that lately the employers practice factual terrorism against the workers, intimating them not to participate in strikes. The unpaid workers of the cooperative invite all people to participate in the strike.

[Sasha]

“Moment of responsibility for all and especially those that stand in the way of the will of the people” – Resolution of the Syntagma Assembly toward the police (http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/2011/06/27/moment-of-responsibility-for-all-and-especially-those-that-stand-in-the-way-of-the-will-of-the-people-resolution-of-the-syntagma-assembly-toward-the-police/)

Monday, June 27, 2011
All the resolutions and news from the Open Assembly of Syntagma are here (http://www.real-democracy.gr/en).

Moment of responsibility for all and especially those that stand in the way of the will of the people.
We call on the officers and mainly the simple employees of the Greek Police, this time, to respect the will of the people and their constitutionally patented popular sovereignty.
We warn them not to even think of applying illegal commands issued by a deposed government, that has shredded the Greek constitution, and has delivered our country to the Troika, the IMF and the world financial-banking system.
They should not dare, under any circumstance, to obstruct the people from protecting the constitution, as it is defined by its last article, in order to avert the sell out of Greece.
Otherwise, every police officer bears personal responsibility for his/her stance and behavior and he/she will suffer the consequences of his/her actions, as will the politicians that command him, that have delivered the country to foreign centers of power with loan agreements, memoranda and Μedium Term Austerity Programs. It’s the last big opportunity for the greek police and policemen and women, and we hope that many of them will act conscientiously and cross over to the side of the people.
The People’s Assembly of Syntagma Square-June 23rd, 2011




fighting talk, nice...

[Sasha]

more:


#630 | Two days like no other (either we make history, or we become history) (http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/2011/06/27/630-two-days-like-no-other-either-we-make-history-or-we-become-history/)

Monday, June 27, 2011
And it’s come down to this. The absolute stand-off. As of Tuesday morning, in a few hours, our humble tent camp in Syntagma square will be the frontline of the people’s struggle against power, against the bloodthirsty plexus of capital and state eating away our lives.
Talking heads on TV sets don’t seem to be listening to their own voices anymore. Like talentless actors on stage without a script, they mumble out what they guess would be the appropriate propaganda. But in their expressions, in their awkward hand signals you can see the certainty past has gone. It’s evaporated. The crescendo is only a few notes away; they know so and they wait around hopelessly, it seems, for the inevitable to come.
Behind their thick security walls, talking suits spurt our cries for some imagined national unity – and yet, they slime creatures that they are, they seem unable to even agree on a common lie; desperate to grab onto their despicable lives they are willing to throw other suits out of the window of a vehicle that is nearing the cliff’s edge by the minute.
Out in the streets, the feeling is almost frighteningly exhilarating. The days when people would try veil their shame for their condition are long past. In Syntagma, day after day, assembly after assembly, someone will invariable take the microphone, hands shaking, and gazes flooded with lust for revenge. The teacher telling stories of her pupils asking her for food and of them losing focus in class from malnutrition. The endless array of unemployed, choking angry words; the girl who promised to fight for her friends who migrated already. The group of friends who had migrated themselves, but came back to Syntagma for a last fight.
All of us who came to take revenge for the lives they want to steal away from us. For our sisters and brothers rotting away in the cells of the democratic regime. For our migrant sisters and brothers, insulted, chased, stabbed in the dark corners of the city. For the helplessness of the teacher in seeing their pupils starve, for everyone’s helplessness in seeing and hearing a cataclysm of stories this. For the dignified silence of the old man, placard hanging from his neck, writing about the second Occupation he now lives through. For all these people, with all these people, we’ll take to the streets, once again.
(…)
It’s Saturday night in Exarcheia, and I meet a long-lost friend. We joke about the artistic plans we used to make years ago, about what would have happened to us in quieter times, where we would be now. Suddenly he stops. “I don’t know if we’ll win or lose on Tuesday,” he says quietly. “But whatever happens, I don’t want them to get all this through without blood being shed. I hope it will be a war.”

[Sasha]

bizarre to see how on the live stream all those greeks are almost totally un-reactive to the sounds of the flashbangs and teargasgrenades. they hardly take the effort to look up anymore.
reminded me of this greek comrades who came over and sworn to me that they grew over the years immune for the teargas, this is a society that lost all fear...

[Bandito]

The BBC's Jon Sopel: "The overwhelming smell is one of tear gas"

Police have fired tear gas in running battles with stone-throwing youths in Athens, where a 48-hour general strike is being held against a parliamentary vote on tough austerity measures.
Thousands of protesters have gathered outside parliament in the capital where public transport has ground to a halt.

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/53733000/jpg/_53733057_jex_1090531_de27-1.jpg

More:
http:www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13935400 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13935400)

[Bandito]

"European Union is falling down, falling down"

(Sing with Mary had a little lamb tune)

[Sasha]

i think you mean "london bridges" tune ;)

[Fulanito de Tal]

Where is NATO to help "the rebels" like in Libya?

[Sasha]

dont know about Nato but the EU is sending free teargass suplies and borderpatrols to greece..

[Sasha]

two more livestreams:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xjknq6_live-streaming-yyyyyy-yyyyyyy-yyyyyyy-yyy-yyyyyyyyyyyy-yyyyy-1y_news

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/syntagma2

[Sasha]

direct link

xjknq6_live-streaming-yyyyyy-yyyyyyy-yyyyyyy-yyy-yyyyyyyyyyyy-yyyyy-1y_news

[Delenda Carthago]

Godamn. I left before shit went down. Now I have to go back...:lol:

[Delenda Carthago]

http://www.ethnos.gr/article.asp?catid=22768&subid=2&pubid=63179258

photos.

[Sasha]

whats up with this one: http://content-mcdn.feed.gr/filesystem/images/20110628/low/newego_LARGE_t_1101_53609886.JPG

i saw more ppl, also rioting anarchists with that white stuff on their face, is it just sunblock or what?

[Sasha]

The people push back riot-cops on the upper side of the squarre in front of the Parliament. The cops hold back guarding the building.
One eye-witness from the “red counter journalists” reported about a riot-cop who threw away his equipment (helmet, shield, batton) and he was grasped from other riot-cops who started beating him up.


http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/2011/06/28/updates-from-the-first-day-of-the-general-strike-in-athens-june-28/#comment-17442

[The Man]

I'm sorry, but I really don't know much about what is going on in greece. Are these people Communists/Socialists or are they just angry at their government?

[Sasha]

more regular ticker: http://en.contrainfo.espiv.net/2011/06/28/tuesday-june-28th-constant-updates/

[Sasha]

I'm sorry, but I really don't know much about what is going on in greece. Are these people Communists/Socialists or are they just angry at their government?


both, the majority of the population is in uproar, the biggest demonstrations are led by the "communist" KKE/PAME, the fiercest streetfighting initiated by the anarchists/anti-authoritarians.

[Delenda Carthago]

Thats a TV station van. And the white stuff is Maalox. And the dude is putting maalox in the old dude's face.

[The Man]

Well, it looks like it's the very very beginning. :)

[Delenda Carthago]

Well, it looks like it's the very very beginning. :)
No. Its really not the "very very beginning".

[Sasha]

And the white stuff is Maalox. And the dude is putting maalox in the old dude's face.


thanx


Maalox or other liquid antacids have also been used for relieving pain from tear gases (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lachrymatory_agent) during riot control (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riot_control).[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maalox#cite_note-1)

yup that makes sense then

[The Man]

No. Its really not the "very very beginning".

I'm not talking about the current situation in Greece.

[Delenda Carthago]

I'm not talking about the current situation in Greece.
But what?

[Fulanito de Tal]

The news here in Florida just said that there were some marches in Greece protesting some legislature. The marches had people holding signs and walking down the street. No one was yelling or chanting and there was lots of space between people. In comparison to what I'm getting from this post, they WAY underplayed what's going on over there.

[PhoenixAsh]

here they say there are just several hundred protesters and riotters who are fighting the police.

Capitalism will ensure the free flow of information is replaced for the free flow of disinformation. As I have heard there are thousands of people protesting. But the line was shoddy and there was a lof of background noise.

As I gathered the protests will increase and there will be a lot more the comming hours and days. Lets hope that is true and will indeed happen.

I am very sad I can't be there....and I wish everybody who is the very best! Stay safe, fight on and.....in the spirit of the origins of this board: hasta la victoria siempre. Please bring the EU down!

[Delenda Carthago]

here they say there are just several hundred protesters and riotters who are fighting the police.

Capitalism will ensure the free flow of information is replaced for the free flow of disinformation. As I have heard there are thousands of people protesting. But the line was shoddy and there was a lof of background noise.

So, what are you doing about it?

[Hivemind]

I haven't followed the thing in Greece very much, but this is very exciting! I can't wait to see how this unfolds, I'll be following very closely now :)

[PhoenixAsh]

So, what are you doing about it?

Well..right now, with the little info I currently have, I am trying to post in the reaction columns of different news sites. But my posts keep getting deleted and I am now MUGGED in several. I am posting information to my contacts who try to do the same and to the ppl in my snw who will probably ignore this.

At the same time I have to stay near the phone since some of my group are in Greece and some others are elsewhere and stuff needs to be coordinated for the homefront and somebody needs to be available when things go awry.

Much more, I can't do at the moment, if I could then I would be in Greece myself.

[Delenda Carthago]

You are not needed for now in Greece, you are needed there.

Use paper too.

[Triple A]

Awsome http://content-mcdn.feed.gr/filesystem/images/20110628/engine/newego_LARGE_t_1101_53609896_type12128.jpg



Comrades keep up the good work. Attack GR you are very lucky people there fight back because here we have a bunch of sissies that blaim the crisis in the poor that receive state help.

[Decolonize The Left]

When is the parliament supposed to have a decision on the austerity measures?

- August

[Tommy4ever]

When is the parliament supposed to have a decision on the austerity measures?

- August

The vote is tommorrow.

[Delenda Carthago]

Awsome http://content-mcdn.feed.gr/filesystem/images/20110628/engine/newego_LARGE_t_1101_53609896_type12128.jpg



Comrades keep up the good work. Attack GR you are very lucky people there fight back because here we have a bunch of sissies that blaim the crisis in the poor that receive state help.

The ideological attack of the bourgeois is going to be as big as the workers movement will allow it to be. But I remind you that when the crisis hited Greece, everybody was blaiming the lazy greeks for it. So...

[The Vegan Marxist]

‎"According to eyewitnesses, one police squad’s officer threw away his helmet and shield, giving up his democratic duty of massive crowd suppression. Other police squad’s cops have beaten him fiercely, forcing him not to leave."

http://eagainst.com/articles/live-from-the-parliament-of-greece/

WOW....just..wow!

[Os Cangaceiros]

http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/wpid-1309267149526.jpg

Fuck May 68, Fight Now! :thumbsup:

[Mr. Cervantes]

If only Americans were proactive in revolt like the Greeks.:thumbdown:

[Sasha]

from the looks of the dailymotion livecam ^ it has kicked of pretty seriously again

[Buitraker]

Voting now

[Coach Trotsky]

The news here in Florida just said that there were some marches in Greece protesting some legislature. The marches had people holding signs and walking down the street. No one was yelling or chanting and there was lots of space between people. In comparison to what I'm getting from this post, they WAY underplayed what's going on over there.

I noticed the same thing. American bourgeois "mainstream' media outlets are severely underplaying the events in Greece right now.
If not for this RevLeft section on the struggle in Greece, and the links provided for up-to-date news of what's happening there, most of us would be seriously uninformed.

[LewisQ]

The usurpers of the people have passed the austerity package. They're hoping the've killed the movement by parliamentary means, as the French ruling class did. Let's see.

[Buitraker]

http://i.imgur.com/uitqL.png

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

The live feed on the link is full of Nazi scum. I seriously saw someone saying both the Bankers and Karl Marx are/were Zionists. He complained about "Zionist shills" when I and others called him out for being a fascist.


Sigh ...


Now that the law has passed, what will happen to this protest movement?

[Dunk]

Now that the law has passed, what will happen to this protest movement?

I'm no Greek...but I was thinking that the only way for Greeks to undo this, is for Greeks to undo parliament.

[LewisQ]

I think this phase of the battle has ended with victory for the ruling class, and it would be foolish to pretend otherwise. The apoliticals will probably begin to drift away and the protests and strikes may well diminish until the next flashpoint. I would not be at all surprised to see a resurgence of individual violence as a whole generation of politically conscious youth realise that their supposed democracy is an artificial sham.

[Bandito]

Media is amazing.

Titles like "Majority in Greece is against the revolts" is pretty laughable, even to those who don't know too much about the situation.

[wunderbar]

I'm watching the dailymotion feed, I just saw a bunch of police/soldiers walking into the park area and heard shooting. That can't be good. :scared:

[Triple A]

Found some good pics take a look http://noticias.sapo.pt/noticias/fotos/grecia_a_ferro_e_fogo_/


http://fotos.sapo.pt/30ceRNma5RHZ3y8tvAze/x435


True psycho face:
http://fotos.sapo.pt/7js6tMdoBQ2wa4z4Z0OZ/x435

[KurtFF8]

So the vote passed. It will be interesting to see whether these protests can actually turn into a movement (that can provide an alternative). The KKE backed union recently put up a slogan that says "Counter Attack"

http://www.seattlepi.com/mediaManager/?controllerName=image&action=get&id=1080313&width=628&height=471

Hopefully they can actually develop a counter attack

[thälmann]

The Executive Secretariat of PAME salutes the hundreds of thousands strikers
The Executive Secretariat of PAME salutes the hundreds of thousands strikers who fought in a determined way for today´s strike at the entrances of factories, in the ship docks, in every workplace, the tens of thousands of demonstrators that participated in the demonstrations of PAME in all Greek cities. We call them to fight also for the success of tomorrow´s strike in a more massive and even more determined way.


The Executive Secretariat denounces the staged “game” of a few dozens masked men with the police, whose only goal is to slander the workers´ struggles, to terrorize the working people and youth, to prevent their participation in tomorrow´s demonstrations and this evening´s demonstration. The steady and selective appearance of those groups at the workers´ demonstrations indicates their goals and reveals the mechanisms that put them in action. Workers must not be frightened, on the contrary they must answer to the provocative action of these mechanisms in a well guarded and organized way, with massive participation at the demonstrations.


All in today´s demonstration at 19:00, and in tomorrow´s great strike demonstration at 10:00, at Omonoia Square.

http://www.pamehellas.gr/fullstory.php?lang=2&wid=1790

when i read this, i have serious doubts. they are calling the masses at syntagma square provocateurs again...

[Paulappaul]

Greek finance ministry burns after vote


http://www.presstv.com/detail/186817.html

holy fuck

[Delenda Carthago]

Media is amazing.

Titles like "Majority in Greece is against the revolts" is pretty laughable, even to those who don't know too much about the situation.
What do you expect? Admiting that today it was a true fuckin peoples uprise? Even the greek media are saying that shit. Fuck em. Spread the word. Thats solidarity to us right now.

[Delenda Carthago]

I think this phase of the battle has ended with victory for the ruling class, and it would be foolish to pretend otherwise. The apoliticals will probably begin to drift away and the protests and strikes may well diminish until the next flashpoint. I would not be at all surprised to see a resurgence of individual violence as a whole generation of politically conscious youth realise that their supposed democracy is an artificial sham.
Well, thank god you werent around in 1905. Cause dude, you have no clue on making conclusions. Its a marathon, not a 100m race.

[Sasha]

The Executive Secretariat of PAME salutes the hundreds of thousands strikers
The Executive Secretariat of PAME salutes the hundreds of thousands strikers who fought in a determined way for today´s strike at the entrances of factories, in the ship docks, in every workplace, the tens of thousands of demonstrators that participated in the demonstrations of PAME in all Greek cities. We call them to fight also for the success of tomorrow´s strike in a more massive and even more determined way.


The Executive Secretariat denounces the staged “game” of a few dozens masked men with the police, whose only goal is to slander the workers´ struggles, to terrorize the working people and youth, to prevent their participation in tomorrow´s demonstrations and this evening´s demonstration. The steady and selective appearance of those groups at the workers´ demonstrations indicates their goals and reveals the mechanisms that put them in action. Workers must not be frightened, on the contrary they must answer to the provocative action of these mechanisms in a well guarded and organized way, with massive participation at the demonstrations.


All in today´s demonstration at 19:00, and in tomorrow´s great strike demonstration at 10:00, at Omonoia Square.

http://www.pamehellas.gr/fullstory.php?lang=2&wid=1790

when i read this, i have serious doubts. they are calling the masses at syntagma square provocateurs again...

pame are part of the problem, not the solution, if they would have been in power i have no doubt they would have implement austerity not one bit more human than this lot, they are only intrested in power, fuck them

[Delenda Carthago]

http://cryptome.org/info/greece-protest/greece-protest.htm

some photos. unfortunatly athens indymedia is down due to trafficing.

6-QAhMJtUI0
The "indignados" getting beat up on a road block they tryed to do.

http://www.youtube.com/user/RealDemocracyGr

[Os Cangaceiros]

pame are part of the problem, not the solution, if they would have been in power i have no doubt they would have implement austerity not one bit more human than this lot, they are only intrested in power, fuck them

Having recently read the atrocious conduct of some of the major leftie orgs during the December '08 unrest, it's unsuprising/par for the course. The kids who burnt police stations and banks across Greece and who hated the rotten society they lived in were derided by these same orgs as embarrasing nihilists. Fuck them indeed.

[The Man]

So I guess we just have to sit and wait to see what happens... I really hope that they keep up the momentum.

[Octavian]

This has to be one of the worst events for socialism in the past decade. I know people feel that this is good because the Greeks are standing up and fighting back. But the fact is this is only going to echo to the rest of the world and the rest of the proletariat will view this as a consequence of socialism.

[Delenda Carthago]

This has to be one of the worst events for socialism in the past decade. I know people feel that this is good because the Greeks are standing up and fighting back. But the fact is this is only going to echo to the rest of the world and the rest of the proletariat will view this as a consequence of socialism.

http://www.dosenation.com/upload/img/jamesk_COV_TONGUE_80820_sm.jpg

[Octavian]

http://www.dosenation.com/upload/img/jamesk_COV_TONGUE_80820_sm.jpg
Yeah, it might appear like the people are on drugs also causing problems with ending the failed war on drugs.

[Olentzero]

This has to be one of the worst events for socialism in the past decade. I know people feel that this is good because the Greeks are standing up and fighting back. But the fact is this is only going to echo to the rest of the world and the rest of the proletariat will view this as a consequence of socialism.So what would be the best event for socialism in this case? The Greek working class sitting down quietly and accepting even more austerity and budget cuts without a peep? You, sir, are a complete and utter fucking idiot.

[Octavian]

So what would be the best event for socialism in this case? The Greek working class sitting down quietly and accepting even more austerity and budget cuts without a peep? You, sir, are a complete and utter fucking idiot.
I'm sorry I don't go along with the herd behavior and cheer on the mindless destruction and violence. The budget cuts are in response to them being out of money and unfortunately unlike the american's and Germans they can't print more. They subjected themselves to this by allowing themselves to be a part of the bourgeois coalition known as the EU.

[Delenda Carthago]

I'm sorry I don't go along with the herd behavior and cheer on the mindless destruction and violence. The budget cuts are in response to them being out of money and unfortunately unlike the american's and Germans they can't print more. They subjected themselves to this by allowing themselves to be a part of the bourgeois coalition known as the EU.

Yes. This is what the capitalist media say. The communists on the other hand say that the working class should not pay the capitalist crisis and that the workers of all the world should make the capitalists of all the world pay their crisis. So go watch some TV since you are into it and kiss my motherfuckin ass while I fight not to become a 5euros/day worker.

[Octavian]

Yes. This is what the capitalist media say. The communists on the other hand say that the working class should not pay the capitalist crisis and that the workers of all the world should make the capitalists of all the world pay their crisis. So go watch some TV since you are into it and kiss my motherfuckin ass while I fight not to become a 5euros/day worker.
If you can't win over the workers of the world then your struggle is useless. Nation based Socialism always leads to capitalist conformity and you know just as well as I do they won't reduce you to 5 euros a day. I'm not completely dismissive of this protest as useless but aimless destruction doesn't help anyone. Maybe my views are "reactionary" or influenced by the bourgeois media but try to take this in a world perspective.

[thälmann]

and this is the problem with this theory "no socialism in one nation". it means in the end no revolution. and by the way its really strange to think the greek workers have to live in hell until the german or us workers move their ass...

what greece would need now is a communist organisation which take this chance and push things forward, unite with the most radical elements in society.

[Bandito]

This has to be one of the worst events for socialism in the past decade. I know people feel that this is good because the Greeks are standing up and fighting back. But the fact is this is only going to echo to the rest of the world and the rest of the proletariat will view this as a consequence of socialism.

Actually, quite the opposite.

The message Greece sends today is what is a brutal consequence of capitalism.

[Octavian]

Actually, quite the opposite.

The message Greece sends today is what is a brutal consequence of capitalism.
That's not how most of the world sees it.

[Bandito]

Wait, what you say is that "most of the world" see protesters against austerity measures, raising taxes and cutting down wages and welfare benefits as protesters against....socialism?

Seriously?

[Octavian]

Wait, what you say is that "most of the world" see protesters against austerity measures, raising taxes and cutting down wages and welfare benefits as protesters against....socialism?

Seriously?
No. I'm saying that people around the world are going to fall further away from socialism because they will view this debt crisis and the following protests as a result of socialism. I support the protest but the consequences world wide will be a further stigma against socialism.

[Tommy4ever]

Wait, what you say is that "most of the world" see protesters against austerity measures, raising taxes and cutting down wages and welfare benefits as protesters against....socialism?

Seriously?

I don't think thats what he is saying.

I think he is saying that most of the world is not in favour of the protestors (you hear the old line ''why don't them Greek fellows get back to work, its all their own fault anyway'' quite a lot) and few people see the problems in Greece as a problem with capitalism, but rather poor governance.

Now this is very unfortunate and it is sadly quite accurate. However, this is clearly not a failing of the movement itself but in our propoganda as a movement around the world and our failure to communicate our point of view. But then again, when you have no effective organs through which to communicate your view, what can you do?

Looking at Greece today, I feel that serious social change over the next few years is a real possibility if capitalism in Greece continues ot be so destructive. Yet it is hard to see how such a revolution could possibly survive in poor and isolated Greece unless the movement spreads across the rest of Europe.

[Delenda Carthago]

So, the conclusion is: stop *****in in revleft and start help us get our message across your societies.

[mykittyhasaboner]

That's not how most of the world sees it.


No. I'm saying that people around the world are going to fall further away from socialism because they will view this debt crisis and the following protests as a result of socialism. I support the protest but the consequences world wide will be a further stigma against socialism.

How can you prove that position?

Even the bourgeois media says the problems 'Greece' is facing right now is a result of debt (by extension, capitalism), and that the protests are against austerity.

The only possible reason why anyone would think this is all the result of "socialism" is because the prime minister is in the "socialist party".

But when you want to:


....cut $20 billion in public spending while raising a further $20 billion through taxes and privatization. This means increased VAT, higher levies on householders and companies and sharp hikes in fuel, alcohol and tobacco prices.

Spending cuts will see heavy public sector job losses, school closures and restrictions on welfare benefits. There will also be sell offs of state assets and ventures including the postal service and key ports.
...then that doesn't seem very "socialist" does it? Anyone with half a brain for politics will understand that people get pissed off when their social benefits are slashed and taxes/prices are raised because parliaments filled with assholes are concerned with capital accumulation and not the Greek working people.



http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/europe/06/29/greece.riots.explainer/index.html?hpt=wo_t1

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13970916

[Octavian]

How can you prove that position?

Even the bourgeois media says the problems 'Greece' is facing right now is a result of debt (by extension, capitalism), and that the protests are against austerity.

The only possible reason why anyone would think this is all the result of "socialism" is because the prime minister is in the "socialist party".

And this is what most will see and what the media will point to.


But when you want to:


...then that doesn't seem very "socialist" does it? Anyone with half a brain for politics will understand that people get pissed off when their social benefits are slashed and taxes/prices are raised because parliaments filled with assholes are concerned with capital accumulation and not the Greek working people.



http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/europe/06/29/greece.riots.explainer/index.html?hpt=wo_t1

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13970916
I realize that and I understand where your coming from. But to the layman they will see it as they tried socialism and now their government is experiencing the backlash.

[manic expression]

And this is what most will see and what the media will point to.
No, most people will see workers protesting and struggling against bankers and politicians. That's all that needs to be known. Fortunately, most workers don't buy into the rhetoric of the capitalist media nearly as much as you erroneously think they do.

[Octavian]

No, most people will see workers protesting and struggling against bankers and politicians. That's all that needs to be known. Fortunately, most workers don't buy into the rhetoric of the capitalist media nearly as much as you erroneously think they do.
Maybe it's just my flawed experience that's giving me that sentiment so I'm sorry If I offended those who support or are in the struggle in Greece. My point was based on my experience with people commenting on it.

[maskerade]

That's not how most of the world sees it.

because you have a direct link to the rest of the world? i'm pretty sure most of the world, being working class or peasant, supports this 100%. Your post reeks of ethnocentricism, go back to CNN.

[Octavian]

because you have a direct link to the rest of the world? i'm pretty sure most of the world, being working class or peasant, supports this 100%. Your post reeks of ethnocentricism, go back to CNN.
Do most people you know have class consciousnesses? The average person I know and have talked to on the internet regarding socialism and the current protests in Greece is that they're lazy socialists rioting because their greedy.

[mykittyhasaboner]

And this is what most will see and what the media will point to.


But what does it matter when the government is trying to increase privatization and cut public spending? Even people unfamiliar with any definition of socialism will understand that privatization and other austerity measures isn't anything close to "socialism".....

i think what most people will see are videos of people striking or rioting. The one thing that is clear about the situation from a "laymans" perspective is that the government is unpopular.



I realize that and I understand where your coming from. But to the layman they will see it as they tried socialism and now their government is experiencing the backlash.That doesn't make any sense......


Do most people you know have class consciousnesses? The average person I know and have talked to on the internet regarding socialism and the current protests in Greece is that they're lazy socialists rioting because their greedy.

If people think Greek workers are striking and rioting because their lazy, then that's simply not logical because A) you can't be lazy if your standing in the streets protesting day after day, and B) because anybody would be protesting if their job and financial security is in jeopardy.

[Octavian]

But what does it matter when the government is trying to increase privatization and cut public spending? Even people unfamiliar with any definition of socialism will understand that privatization and other austerity measures isn't anything close to "socialism".....

i think what most people will see are videos of people striking or rioting. The one thing that is clear about the situation from a "laymans" perspective is that the government is unpopular.
One, you're giving people too much credit into what they think socialism is. Two, if you read what I said the cuts are a part of the failed socialism part.


That doesn't make any sense......
How does it not make sense? It's the same situation when people blurt out "communism doesn't work, look at the USSR it failed". Greece is seen as another failed socialist experiment.


If people think Greek workers are striking and rioting because their lazy, then that's simply not logical because A) you can't be lazy if your standing in the streets protesting day after day, and B) because anybody would be protesting if their job and financial security is in jeopardy.
It doesn't have to be logical when it comes to bourgeois media. They report that they Greeks are rioting because their countries broke and the government stopped retirement at age 50 and cut off welfare, people buy it.

[AnonymousOne]

Very interesting. Solidarity and wishes to the workers and people of Greece.

Are protests only ocurring in Athens or are they ocurring across the country?

I've found it difficult to keep up and find information of any serious depth about what's going on in Greece.

[manic expression]

One, you're giving people too much credit into what they think socialism is. Two, if you read what I said the cuts are a part of the failed socialism part.
Most people (who aren't right-wing) don't think of such issues in terms of "socialism vs capitalism"...they think in terms of bankers, big business, lying politicians.

And on edit, in my experience the "Greece/Spain/whatever is socialist because the party in charge has 'socialist' in its name" is almost always a line of middle class liberals or conservatives.

[mykittyhasaboner]

One, you're giving people too much credit into what they think socialism is.

No i'm not. You are making grand generalizations about public opinion if you think people will think less of "socialism" as a result of the riots and strikes. There are a handful of common "definitions" of socialism:

government regulation
public spending
anything with the name "socialist"
common ownership of society

Neither of those have anything to do with the situation except the 3rd because of the "socialist" prime minister. If your saying people will be convinced that socialism is at fault for this situation simply because of that, then your argument makes no sense. Your assumption that people "think of socialism" in this or that way doesn't hold if they are simply going to be convinced by what political party the prime minister is a part of. In that case, it doesn't matter at all what people think "socialism is".



Two, if you read what I said the cuts are a part of the failed socialism part. How are cuts part of failed "socialism"? Do you mean the austerity measures the government voted for is socialist? Or that Greece is bankrupt because of "socialism" and therefore they have to make cuts?

Either way it's irrelevant because neither is true. My problem is that your assuming quite a bit when you say people will automatically think "this is all socialism's fault".


How does it not make sense? It's the same situation when people blurt out "communism doesn't work, look at the USSR it failed". Greece is seen as another failed socialist experiment.

How the hell is Greece associated with socialism at all? Wtf? How can you even compare this to arguments against the fSU?


It doesn't have to be logical when it comes to bourgeois media.
Of course not. You completely missed the point. i posted articles from the bbc and cnn which both state the strikes an protests are a reaction to the governments decision to attack the Greek workers by implementing higher taxes, prices, and cuts to the public sector. Which is very much the case. The point was that even the bourgeois media has got a better idea of what people will/should think about the Greek situation then the assumptions you have provided.

If people hear: "thousands of Greeks striked and protested against the austerity plans", the most logical thing to take from that is the government is unpopular and the people have a right to be angry. Anything about socialism will probably elude the entire media report...


They report that they Greeks are rioting because their countries broke and the government stopped retirement at age 50 and cut off welfare, people buy it.Well now you've changed what you said a bit. Before you insinuated that people assume Greek workers are rioting because their lazy. That's blatantly untrue and has not been said in the media. If the media reports that Greeks are striking and rioting because "their country is broke and the government stopped the retirement at age 50 and cut off welfare", then that is actually somewhat accurate.

[Octavian]

No i'm not. You are making grand generalizations about public opinion if you think people will think less of "socialism" as a result of the riots and strikes. There are a handful of common "definitions" of socialism:

government regulation
public spending
anything with the name "socialist"
common ownership of society

Neither of those have anything to do with the situation except the 3rd because of the "socialist" prime minister. If your saying people will be convinced that socialism is at fault for this situation simply because of that, then your argument makes no sense. Your assumption that people "think of socialism" in this or that way doesn't hold if they are simply going to be convinced by what political party the prime minister is a part of. In that case, it doesn't matter at all what people think "socialism is".
How is higher wages, welfare, and earlier retirement not public spending?


Or that Greece is bankrupt because of "socialism" and therefore they have to make cuts?
This.

Well now you've changed what you said a bit. Before you insinuated that people assume Greek workers are rioting because their lazy. That's blatantly untrue and has not been said in the media. If the media reports that Greeks are striking and rioting because "their country is broke and the government stopped the retirement at age 50 and cut off welfare", then that is actually somewhat accurate. Living Welfare is considered lazy and has a negative connotation for being a way for people to mooch off the government in north America and from what I've heard in Britain as well. Retiring at age 50 is also considered early and ridiculous by some.

[PhoenixAsh]

The first thing we all have to realise is that we know what socialism is and what it is not. What we tend to forget is that the vast majority of people who have grown up either during the cold war propaganda or with the current day propaganda.

Social democrats are called socialists in the media. Communism is seen as a dictatorial regime with no economic sense and accountable for millions or millions of deaths. And anarchy is seen as being mindless destruction and people just doing what they want when ever. That is the way it is portrayed and that is what people believe.

The current situation in Greece is structurally being portrayed in several ways, none of which will create any sympathy for the Greek people, to cater to the capitalist and burgeoisie agenda.

Its either the fault of the socialist style of government which has been spending and pampering too much. It is being caused by the Greeks not wanting to work. Its being caused by everything BUT by the capitalist system and if somebody does say something along those lines it usually being dismissed as being part of corruption and general mismanagement...if anything it is being caused by there not being ENOUGH capitalism in Greece.

This is naturally giftwrapped in the usual package of fearmongering and devisiveness....like: "as long as they do not take the austerity measures we are going to suffer...and more importantly: you will loose your job and your pension. It is THEIR fault you have it bad."

Alternative view are stiffled. You can't post contrary opinions on news sites...they either get ridiculed, burried or the posters are being MUGGED. I can no longer reach fora or guest lists of seven news sites and on some my posts are modreated and parts get deleted.

The news is incredibly sparse and what we do get is completely biassed.

I don't agree with Octavio but I do agree with him on this point.

[mykittyhasaboner]

How is higher wages, welfare, and earlier retirement not public spending?

It is. Which is precisely why nobody can insinuate this is "socialism's fault" because they are cutting public spending.

Do you understand this?


This.

Greece was not by any means the "socialist" kind of european country like Sweden or France before this happened. There is no basis for this argument. Greece is not commonly associated with "socialism" in any way.



Living Welfare is considered lazy and has a negative connotation for being a way for people to mooch off the government in north America and from what I've heard in Britain as well. Retiring at age 50 is also considered early and ridiculous by some.

So what the fuck is your point?

[PhoenixAsh]

It is. Which is precisely why nobody can insinuate this is "socialism's fault" because they are cutting public spending.

Do you understand this?

Do you understand that the public here thinks its the fault of public spending in the first place and that cutting is the solution to the problem and that this is being portrayed as socialism getting their economic sense back????

Because THAT is exactly how its being portrayed and therefore believed here.


Greece was not by any means the "socialist" kind of european country like Sweden or France before this happened. There is no basis for this argument. Greece is not commonly associated with "socialism" in any way.

Yes...it is. And that WE know it is and naver has been socialist does not mean that the vast majority of people will simply believe the burgeoisie line.


So what the fuck is your point?

I don't know what his point is...but my point is that unless we have a mass international support for Greece people will simply think its the Greeks being obstinate lazy bastards who put us all in danger because that is the overwhelming line in the media....so we need to get out there.

Because online we are getting ripped apart.

[Octavian]

It is. Which is precisely why nobody can insinuate this is "socialism's fault" because they are cutting public spending.
They can if they believe it was public spending driven by a socialist ideology that caused the cuts which in turn caused the protests.




Greece was not by any means the "socialist" kind of european country like Sweden or France before this happened. There is no basis for this argument. Greece is not commonly associated with "socialism" in any way.
Not often but the bourgeois media is always looking for some more ammunition.


So what the fuck is your point?
That people are unfortunately going to be more turned off socialism by the protests. Though I probably came off a little too strong with my initial post.

[mykittyhasaboner]

They can if they believe it was public spending driven by a socialist ideology that caused the cuts which in turn caused the protests.

Public spending can't cause cuts to public spending. That is paradoxical.

The economic crisis in Greece wasn't caused by public spending, and i don't think any media is going to try and say that. Again, i haven't seen any say that so far.



Not often but the bourgeois media is always looking for some more ammunition.
i certainly agree with this in general. but so far, i have not seen any media focusing on this as something to do with "socialism" at all.....


That people are unfortunately going to be more turned off socialism by the protests. Though I probably came off a little too strong with my initial post.i really don't think that will happen. If anything it will expose the european economy as the sinking ship that it is.



Because THAT is exactly how its being portrayed and therefore believed here.

link.

the main bourgeois mouth pieces have not said this to my knowledge.

[Octavian]

Public spending can't cause cuts to public spending. That is paradoxical.

It can if you spend more money than you have and can't print off more.

[Delenda Carthago]

the "lazy greeks" bs was told since 2009. but for anyone reading the facts, you can see that greeks are working more than the average ratio in Europe. more than germans too.but its bs anyway. portugal,spain,iceland,italy are all because of our laziness?

[Sasha]

those greeks are so damn lazy, they rather kill themselves than work a few more years for their damn pensions...


#644 | Suicides up by 40% in Greece after the outbreak of the financial crisis (http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/2011/06/30/644-suicides-up-by-40-in-greece-after-the-outbreak-of-the-financial-crisis/)

Thursday, June 30, 2011
According to official data released by the Greek Ministry of Health today, suicides have increased by 40% in Greece since the outbreak of the crisis. Before the crisis, Greece was listed in the WHO ranks as a country with one of the lowest suicide percentages on a global scale.

[Sasha]

A short report made by Greeks that participated in the demo, filled with videos about what happened yesterday in Athens.

People in Greece are shouting the same slogans as back in the '70 during the colonel's dictatorship, just by adding a second verse:

"Bread, Education, Freedom,
the junta was not ended in '73"

The ruling class is frightened by the huge demonstrations and responds with uncontrolled and brutal violence. The people are intimidated. People resist, regroup and return to the squares empowered by the sense of righteousness and against the lives of misery they are leading us to. Old and young, women and men, children all come forward to push back the state oppression forces waving their hands up in the air!!!
http://www.indymedia.nl/images/extlink.gif http://www.youtube.com/user/narvideos#p/a/u/0/QNnS67eEwRc
http://www.indymedia.nl/images/extlink.gif http://www.narnet.gr/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=506&Itemid=1

The oppression forces, viciously and indiscriminately attack whoever they find in their way. They use chemical weapons, throw stones, explosive riot-control grenades right on the bodies of the protestors. They beat us with their batons directly on our heads, try to set us on fire, to burn our lungs and ultimately to terrorize us. They only succeed in revealing their true face. Them, the ruling class, the EU, the IMF and their government are the ones that are really terrified.
http://www.indymedia.nl/images/extlink.gif http://www.vimeo.com/25806833
http://www.indymedia.nl/images/extlink.gif http://vimeo.com/25183916

They arrest old and middle aged people, beat them up, kick them, handcuff them, while they provide asylum for fascist thugs who threaten protestors with knives and iron bars. They ever allow fascists to find refuge at the entrance of the parliament.
http://www.indymedia.nl/images/extlink.gif http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_g6wp3VHCts
http://www.indymedia.nl/images/extlink.gif https://athens.indymedia.org/local/webcast/uploads/c86a0276.jpg

They attack the people on the square, in the metro, even in the medical post of the protest...
http://www.indymedia.nl/images/extlink.gif http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=S20_JuaX8gg
http://www.indymedia.nl/images/extlink.gif http://www.real.gr/DefaultArthro.aspx?page=arthro&id=77432&catID=3
http://www.indymedia.nl/images/extlink.gif http://vimeo.com/25766138
http://www.indymedia.nl/images/extlink.gif http://vimeo.com/25763703
http://www.indymedia.nl/images/extlink.gif http://vimeo.com/25723416
http://www.indymedia.nl/images/extlink.gif http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-2AcijmlWg&feature=player_embedded
http://www.indymedia.nl/images/extlink.gif http://vimeo.com/25777463
http://www.indymedia.nl/images/extlink.gif http://vimeo.com/25781283
http://www.indymedia.nl/images/extlink.gif http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWLPAjwRXY4&feature=player_embedded#at=82

They even attack people in restaurants, cafes, grocery stores...
http://www.indymedia.nl/images/extlink.gif http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SiA2vLn_Tw&feature=player_embedded
http://www.indymedia.nl/images/extlink.gif http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2CWUTer7Rg&feature=player_embedded
http://www.indymedia.nl/images/extlink.gif http://www.real.gr/DefaultArthro.aspx?page=arthro&id=77507&catID=14
http://www.indymedia.nl/images/extlink.gif http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=p5FARBm7k48#at=23
http://www.indymedia.nl/images/extlink.gif http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_j0cIIboGA&feature=player_embedded#at=14
http://www.indymedia.nl/images/extlink.gif http://kdrasi.wordpress.com/2011/06/30/tromokratia_kai_kempap/

They leave behind injured people and move on
http://www.indymedia.nl/images/extlink.gif http://aristeriparemvasivyrona.blogspot.com/

"The enemy has entered the city walls"

People declare:

We don't owe, we won't pay, we won't sell

Whatever they do the fear will always be theirs. Their junta will fall.

Our civilization is much stronger than their barbaric hordes...
http://www.indymedia.nl/images/extlink.gif http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=wj1jX0mFtLc#at=208

Comradely for Greece

[PhoenixAsh]

Public spending can't cause cuts to public spending. That is paradoxical.

Yes...it definately is. We know this...but the propaganda in the last few decades since the fall of the USSR is that public spending is the root of all evil:

There isn't enough money...and offcourse we need the money to safe banks and huge corporations and give the rich tax cuts so they can spend more and stimulate the economy :rolleyes: The economic problems are caused by the workers, the lazy ones who live of social wellfare and are always trying to get a free buck to live lazy comfortable lives while others work hard. Its the fault of the immigrants who come here to live off our welfare. Its the fault of everybody BUT the system. The system would function beautifu;ly and everybody would get rich as long as the system is not stiffled by useless laws which prevent corporations to fire workers easilly and thereby being able to hire more easilly and create jobs. Its because minimum wages are so incredibly high that corporatiosn can't create more jobs and it is because people who are sick are really faking it and takle a few extra days...just because they get paid. Shit like this.

How can you be surprised that...after all the above propaganda...24/7 people start to believe those lies?



The economic crisis in Greece wasn't caused by public spending, and i don't think any media is going to try and say that. Again, i haven't seen any say that so far.

Well you haven't been paying close attention. Because its the main story. Its the whole reason behind the austerity measures....and its the whole reason why there is nu huge support.



i certainly agree with this in general. but so far, i have not seen any media focusing on this as something to do with "socialism" at all.....

O? You mean that always mentioning thet the government is run by the socialist president; the socialist part; has a socialist pension system and there is a socialist mayority in parliament isn't directly influencing the opinion?



i really don't think that will happen. If anything it will expose the european economy as the sinking ship that it is.

Offcourse the EU economy is sinking. And the North will blame it on the South. Don;t forget the years and years of racist and geographical stereotyping that has been going on in the EU. The South has always in every educational program been protrayed as layed back; people who sleep during the day when they should be productive; and who generally are lazier than their northern counter parts and aren't all that smart...because thats so subtile its a generally accepted stereotype.




link.

the main bourgeois mouth pieces have not said this to my knowledge.

See AttackGr's response.

[Mr. Cervantes]

When will Greek like activism come to the shores of the United States? :confused:

[Octavian]

When will Greek like activism come to the shores of the United States? :confused:
When Mcdonalds can't afford to have a dollar menu.

[Olentzero]

...and blames all the people who ordered from it, saying they had it too good for too long.

Seriously, however, that kind of activity is starting to bubble up to the surface. Granted, there weren't rolling street battles in Madison this past winter, but what we did see out there was tremendously inspiring nonetheless. It's there; you just have to keep your eyes open.

[Delenda Carthago]

One day at the time fellas. You cant go from nothing to everything. Making the steps is equally important as the result.

[Olentzero]

What's going on out there anyway, AttackGr? The wire's been kinda quiet since the strike ended. You got any updates?

[Thirsty Crow]

the "lazy greeks" bs was told since 2009. but for anyone reading the facts, you can see that greeks are working more than the average ratio in Europe. more than germans too.but its bs anyway. portugal,spain,iceland,italy are all because of our laziness?
It all boils down to the inherent laziness and parasitic nature of the working class EVERYWHERE.
What else would you expect?

Oh yeah, do you have any source on this (that the average ratio, I suppose, working hours in Greece exceeds the average of the Union)?


The economic problems are caused by the workers, the lazy ones who live of social wellfare and are always trying to get a free buck to live lazy comfortable lives while others work hard
That's an optimistic simulation of the bourgeois panic stricken discourse.
You can also hear some even nastier (more nasty???) stuff. For example, here where I live the smug liberals are very much prone to putting forward a quasi autoracist argument, that the people are miles away from the "European" civilization which warrants a strict rule of euro-bureaucrats and a hammering of proper work discipline and work ethics (since all of the workers here are lazy, they are well off in relation to their output etc etc.).

I swear, sometimes I want to bash some skulls.

[Delenda Carthago]

What's going on out there anyway, AttackGr? The wire's been kinda quiet since the strike ended. You got any updates?
well, there is a constant movement with nebourhood assemblies which organise small demos and fiests in their nebourhoods, there are some small things that anarchists do, KKE doing its own thing. but whats the point of publishing them? The big things are those that matter now.

[Hoipolloi Cassidy]

The big things are those that matter now.
Maybe the important things are people organizing to take the country back, piece by piece - in other terms, to detach Greek economic life from whatever the Government and the IMF think they're going to plunder.

[W1N5T0N]

I'm wondering how long until the greek government runs out of teargas...and who is going to supply them with it after that.

[thälmann]

wasnt it israel the last time? i remember something like that.

[Sasha]

I'm wondering how long until the greek government runs out of teargas..


3 years ago: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/greece/3725047/Greece-runs-out-of-tear-gas-during-violent-protests.html


.and who is going to supply them with it after that.

last time it was indeed israel (and germany) who delivered emergency supplys

[Hoipolloi Cassidy]

I'm wondering how long until the greek government runs out of teargas...and who is going to supply them with it after that.
Papandreou recently complained that France and Germany were blackmailing him to buy even more armaments from them in exchange for EU approval of the austerity measures.

As it is, Greece has a huge proportion of its budget invested in armaments already, far beyond their size or needs.

[W1N5T0N]

Damn...
If Germany were to make another delivery of teargas capsules, that would fit perfectly to the recent approval by the chancellor for a huge shipment of tanks to saudi arabia.
Moral-Apostel...

[Olentzero]

well, there is a constant movement with nebourhood assemblies which organise small demos and fiests in their nebourhoods, there are some small things that anarchists do, KKE doing its own thing. but whats the point of publishing them? The big things are those that matter now.Like you said upthread, the small things are what make the big things possible. As long as things haven't gone completely quiet - which doesn't seem to have happened - then these small things can potentially lead to big things again. Soon, I hope.

[Ballyfornia]

Hows the Situation there at the present moment?

[Rainsborough]

Is there anything happening?

[CornetJoyce]

Things are happening on the bankers' side.
http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/aefc2f1a-abd7-11e0-945a-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1RpNVrpWJ

[João Jerónimo]

pame are part of the problem, not the solution, if they would have been in power i have no doubt they would have implement austerity not one bit more human than this lot, they are only intrested in power, fuck them
You think making a revolution is just making some radical claims and being against everything and everyone and everyunion and everyparty, but you are wrong wrong wrong, because it takes a lot of work. And definitely, this "fuck them" discourse just doesn't pay off, even if we believe in it.
And fuck you.

JJ.