Unpaid internships: precarity or slavery?

[Die Neue Zeit]

There's a growing trend among younger people in the workforce towards taking up unpaid internships, usually due to company pressure. Is this really a form of precarity, or instead a new form of economic slavery perhaps worse than chattel slavery (since the slaveowners fed and sheltered, however badly, their slaves)?

[PhoenixAsh]

I think if you do work you should get paid. Simple as that. Internships without pay are not only akin to slavery but they are also contradictory to working class interests.

It can not IMO be equated with slavery one on one. Since, as I understand the term slavery, it does not involve the person being seen as property nor being forced directly to work in the same sense as a slave would be. But its pretty damned close.

Its a very cheap way for a company not to have to hire somebody and still get work done. And that should not be allowed.

[Manic Impressive]

The only people who can afford to take up internships are middle or upper class people competing for high paid jobs or in appealing careers. It's just another way to keep the working class in their place.

[thesadmafioso]

It is a horribly exploitative process which has stemmed out of an excess in youth labor. In the process of attaining an internship, you are basically made to compete with other individuals in a similar situation for the chance to pay for "experience". And since this standard is now common place in many fields of work, you sort of need to go through the process just to be on the same scale as everyone else vying for a job. Such a sick and preserve system it is.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

It's not slavery, because the agreement is entered into freely by both sides. Indeed, often people work in unpaid internships, forgoing the opportunity of paid work, so it is not bondage.

But I agree, the whole mystique of unpaid internships discourages meritocracy and allows the whole 'smoke filled room', daddy's friend-type scenario to prevail. Because of that, unpaid internships should be outlawed.

[thesadmafioso]

It's not slavery, because the agreement is entered into freely by both sides. Indeed, often people work in unpaid internships, forgoing the opportunity of paid work, so it is not bondage.

But I agree, the whole mystique of unpaid internships discourages meritocracy and allows the whole 'smoke filled room', daddy's friend-type scenario to prevail. Because of that, unpaid internships should be outlawed.

The agreement is only entered into by the party offering their labor freely out of necessity in most circumstances. Many industries are competitive to a point where having this sort of experience is vital to acquiring employment, forcing individuals to take up unpaid internships.

[Blackburn]

I've always found the whole idea of 'work experience' to make you a better employable person kinda bogus.

I've always found the best experience is simply being employed and doing the job.

I was told I should happily work those low paid retail jobs as a kid, and then employers will look favourably on me.

Only to fine when I moved to a big city, that to get a professional job, I had to hide my experience as a low paid wage slave. I also saw the children of the privilege go straight from University into privileged positions.

Again, it's all another lie.

[Hivemind]

Its a very cheap way for a company not to have to hire somebody and still get work done. And that should not be allowed.

My sentiments exactly. Although, I know a few people who went through one-year-no-pay internships and then were given paid jobs that, when you go through all the math to figure out average pay over the job's term, had much, much higher pay, on average, than if they went and got a different job and didn't go through the internship.

But then again, it was a year without pay of any kind since they didn't have much time left in their days to get a second job, so they had to move back home and basically mooch off their parents for a while, which can be demeaning, depending on the person.

Slavery? Not really. A dick move on the part of the companies? Pretty much.

[PhoenixAsh]

Its true what has been pointed out...its a system that favors the more economically privileged since they are the ones who can easilly afford it. Its a system that pretends to offer equal opportunity but it doesn't since poor people can not afford to forego wages.

Its a case of class-nepotism.



In Holland we have a system of "stage" its part of the education process to acquire some field experience by working in a company relevant to your field of education....and to learn how things go. They rarely get paid under the guise of this being part of the educational process. Granted...some do meaningless tasks but the sting is in the tail. They still do work...and when they get fired or bad revues they can now even fail their education. Which basically boils down to them having no choice whatsoever and getting to do some demeaning chores or very hard work to which they can not complain.

It sounds nice and all...getting some field experience...but actually it amounts to nothing and it doesn't solve future youth unemployment one bit.

[bricolage]

Internships aren't even unpaid anymore... they are paid for by the intern!


An auction market has even sprung up to sell these positions to the highest bidder. A Versace internship fetched $5000 at auction, temporary blogging rights at the Huffington Post went for $13,000, and someone paid $42,500 for a one-week stint at Vogue.At one Californian outfit, Dream Careers, 2000 internships all over the world are sold annually. You can buy an eight-week summer position for $8000 (a placement in London will set you back $9500).

[Blackburn]

It sounds nice and all...getting some field experience...but actually it amounts to nothing and it doesn't solve future youth unemployment one bit.

Exactly! if they are serious they would give someone a job. Just more lies from the privileged classes.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

The agreement is only entered into by the party offering their labor freely out of necessity in most circumstances. Many industries are competitive to a point where having this sort of experience is vital to acquiring employment, forcing individuals to take up unpaid internships.

Yes, but people who take these internships are forced to do so only if they want to be in the executive, managerial and directorial jobs that pay 6 figures +. If they didn't take these internships, they wouldn't get *these* jobs, but they'd presumably still be in a position to get a well above average job.

We are generalising, of course, but let's not pretend that unpaid internships are the preserve of the working class, because, in general, they are not.

[thesadmafioso]

Yes, but people who take these internships are forced to do so only if they want to be in the executive, managerial and directorial jobs that pay 6 figures +. If they didn't take these internships, they wouldn't get *these* jobs, but they'd presumably still be in a position to get a well above average job.

We are generalising, of course, but let's not pretend that unpaid internships are the preserve of the working class, because, in general, they are not.

That's hilariously incorrect on so many different levels. I have had 3 different internships in my life thus far, and I am still in college. I can also tell you with an assured degree of certainty that these positions have not in any way groomed me for a position with such a lofty pay check. Internships are far more common than you appear to think, and they are only becoming more wide spread in fields of intellectual labor.

I never stated nor implied that they preserve the working class, I was merely commenting on their exploitative nature. The two concepts are quite separate.

[Fulanito de Tal]

I would like to add that in psychotherapy type degrees, a seminar class that costs tuition is usually linked to the internship so the students can discuss what they are learning in with classmates. Thus, the student actually pays to be able to work.

[graymouser]

Internships cannot be understood as a means of production - they have not yet taken a central role in industry, and they have a strictly temporary character. Saying they're slavery is incorrect in that technical sense.

The modern internship can be understood as a peculiar form of apprenticeship. However, unlike being an apprentice, the benefits are nebulous rather than concrete: if you passed as an apprentice, you were in a guild or a union. If you do an internship, all you have to show is some "experience." In truth, it's a ridiculously abused system, and rarely confers the actual "experience" that is wanted in employees - the system seems to be perpetuated mainly to get free work out of individuals.

Verso just put out a book on the subject, called Intern Nation: How to Earn Nothing and Learn Little in the Brave New Economy by Ross Perlin, about the subject. I haven't read it yet but I'm interested to get a copy in the not so distant future.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

That's hilariously incorrect on so many different levels. I have had 3 different internships in my life thus far, and I am still in college. I can also tell you with an assured degree of certainty that these positions have not in any way groomed me for a position with such a lofty pay check. Internships are far more common than you appear to think, and they are only becoming more wide spread in fields of intellectual labor.

I never stated nor implied that they preserve the working class, I was merely commenting on their exploitative nature. The two concepts are quite separate.

We clearly come from different walks of life. I can only comment on what i've observed in relation to unpaid internships, and in general, in London, they appear to be the preserve of daddy's son networking with daddy's best friend -type things.

But yeah, I take your point, they have the ability to be exploitative and thus should be covered by labour and minimum wage legislation.

[thesadmafioso]

We clearly come from different walks of life. I can only comment on what i've observed in relation to unpaid internships, and in general, in London, they appear to be the preserve of daddy's son networking with daddy's best friend -type things.

But yeah, I take your point, they have the ability to be exploitative and thus should be covered by labour and minimum wage legislation.

Well yeah, they are basically reserved for the upper classes of society due to their lack of pay, and that is another serious issue involved with the matter. It becomes increasingly more difficult to participate in an internship as you travel down the socioeconomic ladder, all for experience that hardly transcends nominal value. It has essentially become yet another artificial stage which an individual must traverse before entering into many professional fields, and it serves to restrict entry exclusively upon the basis of ones access to capital.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Yeah, but internships shouldn't really be part of the ladder into 'the professions,' as, in my experience, they don't really serve any purpose aside from networking.

Rather, paid internships should more be encouraged as a foot into the trades or vocational work, where they might actually provide useful job experience, instead of acting as an entry into someone's black book.