Any Taoist marxist out there?

[AmericanSocialist]

So I have recently decided to embrace Taoism (if that is even possible). Are there any other marxist Taoist out there? I feel like I am a marxist first and Taoist second.

[Android]

So I have recently decided to embrace Taoism (if that is even possible). Are there any other marxist Taoist out there? I feel like I am a marxist first and Taoist second.

There was / is (?) a group in Britain that Wikipedia labels 'Neo-Titoist'. The link on the Wikipedia's Titoism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titoism) page to their blog does not bring you to a functioning blog page. So, I think this indicates that if it existed in the first place, they are probably defunct now.

Do not know of anything really, although for the life of me I can not understand the appeal. But then there are Hoxhaists in the US (http://www.youtube.com/user/AmericanPartyofLabor#p/u/1/vpL_rBAXLpY).

[Sun at Eight]

Uh, he wrote Taoism (Daoism), not Titoism. I know that people have written about dialectics in Daoist thought, so there is that connection, along with possible influences on Mao's conception of dialectical materialism.

[L.A.P.]

Taoism is respectable in terms of religion but long outdated and illogical in terms of philosophy, not to mention it's completely idealist. I can't really see the Taoist idea of moderation not being in direct conflict with the political radicalism of Marxism. However, I kind of appreciate the Taoist view on sexuality as opposed to the favoring of abstinence by most religions of the world.

[Android]

Uh, he wrote Taoism (Daoism), not Titoism. I know that people have written about dialectics in Daoist thought, so there is that connection, along with possible influences on Mao's conception of dialectical materialism.

Oops, my mistake.

[heiss93]

So I have recently decided to embrace Taoism (if that is even possible). Are there any other marxist Taoist out there? I feel like I am a marxist first and Taoist second.

The user qlfeng (http://www.revleft.com/vb/blog.php?u=19258) posted a few links a while back to books on Communist Sociology based on a Daoist perspective, written by an author in China

[Queercommie Girl]

I am an atheist and a materialist but I have an intellectual interest in many religions, including Daoism. I'm also from China originally.

I'm certainly not a religious Daoist but most Chinese Marxists recognise that ancient philosophical Daoism (there is a difference between philosophical Daoism, which is a philosophy rather than a religion, and actual religious Daoism) was an example of early dialectical thought in Chinese antiquity, on the same level as the early dialectical thinkers in ancient Greece and India. I think more Marxists in the West should recognise the ancient thinkers of China and India more, instead of just being Eurocentric and focus solely on Greece. xx1994xx is right though in saying that one of the problems of Daoism in general (both philosophical and religious) is its idealism as opposed to materialism, but this is not the general case with ancient Chinese dialectical thought. There were also schools of thought in Chinese antiquity which were both dialectical and materialistic, just that these aren't really "Daoist".

I once read a book which links Marxism and Chinese philosophy called Chinese Dialectics: From Yijing to Marxism. This book is from a semi-Maoist perspective and frankly isn't very good in terms of its political ideology (it's a bit "revisionist"), but then politics isn't actually its main content or theme anyway. The good things about this book are its interesting philosophical ideas and also its discussion of the early history of Marxist thought in China (late 19th and early 20th centuries) from a Chinese rather than Western perspective.

You can read most of the book online for free here:

http://books.google.com/books/about/Chinese_dialectics.html?id=ZhU5dLIAkr8C

[Queercommie Girl]

I can't really see the Taoist idea of moderation not being in direct conflict with the political radicalism of Marxism.


Actually it's not really in conflict at all.

Using Daoist logic:

If everything is in moderation, wouldn't this be an extreme in itself?

Socialists should only be non-moderate in one area: political activism. In every other aspect of life they should strive to be moderate: Alcohol is a positive thing, but binge drinking should be discouraged; Free love is a progressive concept, but sexual hedonism should be avoided; Cross-dressing can be good, but excessive exhibitionism should be criticised.

Thus not only is there "moderation", but there is also "moderation of the second order" - moderation between "being extreme in politics" and "being moderate in everything else". ;)

This is actually a pretty good general philosophy of life, IMO. (A balance between liberal hedonistic lifestylism on the one hand, and conservative moral puritanism on the other)

Political radicalism does not imply cultural radicalism or radicalism in everyday life at all.

[hatzel]

However, I kind of appreciate the Taoist view on sexuality as opposed to the favoring of abstinence by most religions of the world.

I personally think you're being pretty careless here with your use of the words 'abstinence' and 'most.' There are very few religions which favour sexual abstinence in its absolute sense, Christianity (or, at least, monasticism or priestly Catholicism etc.) being one. A great many religions, however, would see this celibacy as inherently sinful, so definitely can't be said to favour sexual abstinence. Most, it must be said, preach moderation of sexuality (and Taoism is no different in this regard, by the way), but sexual abstinence definitely isn't favoured over...whatever the opposite is...having sex, let's call it that.

Incidentally, there are quite a few parallels between Taoist sexuality and 'pure' (by which I mean pre-Islamic) Hinduism, as expounded in the Kama sutra and elsewhere (though there are also a great many pertinent differences). Here's a little bit from the Lakshana temple:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/44/Khajuraho-Lakshmana_Temple_erotic_detal1.JPG/800px-Khajuraho-Lakshmana_Temple_erotic_detal1.JPG

I think the minute you adorn your temples with blow-jobs and people bending over, any claim that you're a prudish bunch calling for abstinence pretty much goes straight out the window...I'd be interested to do a comprehensive study here, of all the world's religions and their approach to sexuality. I definitely don't feel that most would favour abstinence, though perhaps many of the larger ones would be closer to that end of the spectrum. Still, the countless tiny 'tribal' religions might overwhelm them when it comes to the pie-chart of total religions, even if not on the pie-chart of adherents, individual opinions...

[Queercommie Girl]

At the risk of over-generalising to some extent, Abrahamic religions generally tend to be more conservative when it comes to sex, as well as being generally less tolerant and supportive of queer sexuality.

However, in ancient China Confucianism was also a rather puritan tradition in the moral sense, even though it was never hostile towards LGBT people to the same extent as Christianity and Islam were. The more "sexually liberal" attitudes in Daoism was never the mainstream in Chinese feudal society, unlike with Hinduism in the Indian subcontinent.

P.S. the temple art in the photo above looks quite nice... ;)

[ComradeMan]

Hmm.... Hindu saddhus and holy men are supposed to abstain from sex.

The sexual images used in ancient times were also believed to frighten away demons and/or evil spirits.

[Crux]

So I have recently decided to embrace Taoism (if that is even possible). Are there any other marxist Taoist out there? I feel like I am a marxist first and Taoist second.
I used to own a copy of Tao Te Ching, but I am not a philosphical idealist.

[Queercommie Girl]

The sexual images used in ancient times were also believed to frighten away demons and/or evil spirits.


Using love to conquer evil does sound like an interesting idea...

[ComradeMan]

Using love to conquer evil does sound like an interesting idea...

Except I'm afraid it wasn't that- it was using "obscene" acts to frighten away evil spirits. :rolleyes:

[Queercommie Girl]

Except I'm afraid it wasn't that- it was using "obscene" acts to frighten away evil spirits. :rolleyes:

It's still "obscene acts" I would love to engage in though. ;):blushing:

I think it's still more progressive than literally burning people to death for "obscene acts" in medieval Europe.

Seriously though, I don't think you can treat all of Hinduism/Indian Religion as a single category. There are bound to be many different schools of thought, just like the case with Chinese Religions.

In ancient China there were both religious schools of thought that were puritanical, and other schools of thought that were more "sexually liberal", even though the puritanical schools were largely always more dominant and "mainstream".

Ancient India did produce the great work of ancient sexual literature - The Kama Sutra... ;) I doubt you can just say the Kama Sutra was written solely for the purpose of scaring away "evil spirits"...:rolleyes:

[ComradeMan]

Ancient India did produce the great work of ancient sexual literature - The Kama Sutra... ;) I doubt you can just say the Kama Sutra was written solely for the purpose of scaring away "evil spirits"...:rolleyes:

Hmm... out of 36 chapters, only 10 are dedicated to sex. The first 5 chapters are a general philosophical introduction. The then 10 on sex and then 5 on how to acquire a wife, followed by 2 on the duties of a wife- then 6 chapters on "other men's wives", followed by 6 chapters about "courtesans" and a final 2 chapters on "occult" stuff- using magic to increase attractiveness etc.

[Queercommie Girl]

Hmm... out of 36 chapters, only 10 are dedicated to sex. The first 5 chapters are a general philosophical introduction. The then 10 on sex and then 5 on how to acquire a wife, followed by 2 on the duties of a wife- then 6 chapters on "other men's wives", followed by 6 chapters about "courtesans" and a final 2 chapters on "occult" stuff- using magic to increase attractiveness etc.

Well, it's true one shouldn't romanticise the feudal past, but 10 of 36 chapters "dedicated" to sex is still quite "permissive" by Christian standards...

At any rate sex is considered in a positive sense in general in the Kama Sutra, rather than seen as "obscene".

But then you almost sound a bit like a boring old prudish man who is arguing against sexual liberation...

[ComradeMan]

Well, it's true one shouldn't romanticise the feudal past, but 10 of 36 chapters "dedicated" to sex is still quite "permissive" by Christian standards...

Song of Solomon? :rolleyes:

Thy lips, Oh my spouse, drop as the honeycomb: honey and milk are under thy tongue; and the scent of thy garments is like the scent of Lebanon.


But then you almost sound a bit like a boring old prudish man who is arguing against sexual liberation...

:laugh:

I'm just pointing out that people often read too much into things....

[Susurrus]

I don't know about Marxism, but: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism_and_religion#Taoism

[Fulanito de Tal]

So I have recently decided to embrace Taoism (if that is even possible). Are there any other marxist Taoist out there? I feel like I am a marxist first and Taoist second.

If you invent "embrace", then you also invent "shun".

[Queercommie Girl]

Song of Solomon? :rolleyes:

Thy lips, Oh my spouse, drop as the honeycomb: honey and milk are under thy tongue; and the scent of thy garments is like the scent of Lebanon.


Not explicit enough...:tt2:

I prefer things like this:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3036/3048404204_25d0379466.jpg

:blushing:

(Just kidding)

Seriously though, in terms of literary style I find some of the poetry in the Old Testament more similar to the style of the Chinese classic Shijing, the Book of Songs, one of the most important Confucian canons. The love/romance described in both tend to have a more subtle and puritanical style, rather than really overt, and there is little link with the occult.

In the Chinese tradition, Daoism loves the occult, but Confucianism is much more puritanical and generally shuns it.

Another interesting parallel between Judaism and Confucianism is that the former is monotheistic while ancient Confucianism was also near-monotheistic. If you read the Book of Songs you will find that there are many references to Shangdi (Lord on High) or Tian (Heaven), the Chinese Highest God and Creator of the myriad things, often in poems that praise God.

In fact, an interesting school of thought in Chinese Christianity (not mainstream) actually planned to create a "Chinese Bible" by fusing the Confucian Five Classics with the Old Testament. :cool::lol:

(The idea is that apparently the ancient Chinese and the ancient Hebrews worshipped exactly the same God)

It shows that even though people generally categorise Chinese "Daoic" religions together with Indian "Dharmic" religions, this is not really the full picture. There are elements in ancient Confucian thought (not really Daoist thought though, which is much closer to Indian religions in many ways) which actually have more parallels with the ancient Judaic (pre-Christianity) tradition. This Heaven-worship element in Chinese Religion was derived from North Asian shamanism originally.



:laugh:

I'm just pointing out that people often read too much into things....I was joking.

[Queercommie Girl]

I don't know about Marxism, but: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism_and_religion#Taoism

Taoism

The central text of Taoism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taoism) and taoist philosophy, the Tao Te Ching (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tao_Te_Ching), is considered by some as one of the great anarchist classics.[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)] At the time it was written in ancient China, there was a struggle between Taoists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taoists), Legalists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legalism_%28philosophy%29) and Confucians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucians), where the Legalists were in favor of codification of law and a centralization of governance, while the Confucianists generally preferred moderation using rites instead of laws. The Taoists, on the other hand, rejected such ideas. At the center of Taoism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taoism) lies the notion of Wu wei (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_wei) (often translated; action through inaction). It can be summed up by the following quote from the Tao Te Ching; 'The world is ruled by letting things take their course. It cannot be ruled by interfering.' This and other ideas in the Tao Te Ching resonates with modern concepts of anarchism. However, simply resonating with modern anarchists is not the same as an actual connection.

In a general "hand-waving" way, 2500 years ago the Daoists were indeed the ones who most resembled anarchists today, the Legalists resembled Stalinists, the Mohists resembled Trotskyists, while the Confucians resembled Social Democrats. (Only in a very general sense)

All of the four major schools at the time: Confucianism, Daoism, Legalism and Mohism, were relatively progressive relative to the time period though.

[Rafiq]

No religions of any sort are compatible with all aspects of Marxism.

You could be "Marxian", but not Marxist.

You still could, however, of course be a communist.

Believe what you believe is actually true, even if it means giving up being a Marxist, or anything else for that matter.

[Fulanito de Tal]

I like Taoism because it's trippy. The stuff in the Tao Te Ching is hard to comprehend. I used to try to read it before going to bed to help me sleep, but it did the opposite (OMG opposite! :scared:).

[Viet Minh]

I don't know about Marxism, but: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism_and_religion#Taoism

I made this ages ago out of sheer boredom, but it seems quite apt for the Anarcho-Daoists..
http://i53.tinypic.com/2e52iyu.png

I decided I was a Taoist years ago, after reading a batman comic :blushing: Whenever anyone asked me what Taoism was I just told them 'the Tao that can be told is not the true Tao'.

[ComradeMan]

No religions of any sort are compatible with all aspects of Marxism.

You could be "Marxian", but not Marxist.

You still could, however, of course be a communist.

Believe what you believe is actually true, even if it means giving up being a Marxist, or anything else for that matter.

Marx was not a Marxist.;)