Originally posted by Che y Marijuana+Oct 14 2003, 12:37 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Che y Marijuana @ Oct 14 2003, 12:37 AM)
[email protected] 13 2003, 01:03 PM
Enigma, you're right. Absolutely right.
Sarcasm in the first line doesnt make for good reading.
Palestine was not inhabited, just as the Americas never were. And even if they were, they should all be moved to the land of the Inuits in northern Canada, after all, there's lots of room there and it's also indigenous land.
More sarcasm...
You're spouting very offensive propaganda, statistical genocide.
Well I'm sorry, if you are offended, I truly am. But if you can find fault with what I said, and not just propaganda of your own, then I will be more than willing to listen as I said, I am no expert in this subject. Do you not believe that genocide is an inproper word to use? After all there has been no mass scale extermination of Palestinians... but the nabouring nations have advocated mass removal of "zionists" from the land. I believe the term "Driven into the sea" was used to describe the Egyption foreign policy on the "zionists" inhabiting the newly formed Israel.
You're erasing a people from the history books.
According to the Zionists your people have never been in the History books. They claim that there has never been a nation of Palestine, just a region, in the same way that the Sahara is a region. They claim that there is little or no differance between a Palestinian and an Eygption. If this is true, I dont know, but they provide sources for what they say, I would be happy to see yours, to fully sway the argument in your favour.
The Zionists only began to come into Palestine in the late 1800's.
Which is what I said.
or why they didn't accept the fucking desert.
Like the Zionists did?
It was their home.
True, and I dont advocate kicking them out, but if you have only 4 people per sqr mile, it seems not to unreasonable to share some of that land.
Why should a Palestinian with an orchard along the fertile lands cradling the mediterranean have to move to the desert of Jordan
Zionists say that rather than an "an orchard along the fertile lands cradling the mediterranean" they had as Mark Twain described: -
"A desolate country whose soil is rich enough, but is given over wholly to weeds... a silent mournful expanse.... a desolation.... we never saw a human being on the whole route.... hardly a tree or shrub anywhere. Even the olive tree and the cactus, those fast friends of a worthless soil, had almost deserted the country."
It only became, excuse my biblical quote, "a land flowing with milk and honey" when the Zionists moved their and engaged in a vast agricultural program to make the land habitable to more than its current nomadic population.
Another interesting claim of the Zionists is: -
"All land was purchased legally from the original owners... whether they be from "Palestine" itself or elsewhere. Furthermore, top dollar was paid for this land which, in many cases, was uninhabited and hardly more than swamp land and rocky terrain."
If it is true it kind of destroys the Palestinian argument. Yet after all if a Zionists says it some bias must exist right?
Another intersting "claim" by the Zionists is: -
"Only about 120,000 Arabs resided in an area that now comprises the State of Israel, Jordan and the so-called "West Bank" [Judea and Samaria] in between. By 1890, the number of Jews who had settled in Palestine reached 50,000 and, by 1907, numbered 100,000. In Jerusalem alone the Jews numbered more than 25,000, out of a total population in the city of only 40,000 Jews, Christians and Arabs. The Arabs did, however, constitute a majority over the sparsely populated countryside abutting Jerusalem."
The Zionists also claim that the vast majority of Palestinians are not infact from Palestine at all but: -
"The Jews had already begun mass immigration into Palestine in the 1880's in an effort to rid the land of swamps and malaria and prepare for the rebirth of Israel. This Jewish effort to revitalize the land attracted an equally large immigration of Arabs from neighboring areas who were drawn by employment opportunities and healthier living conditions."
As I attempt to be impartial in this particular dispute, I would be very greatful if you dispell the Zionist myths which I have read, and tell me what really happened.
But most importantly, as a Palestinian, I call for the destruction of the state of Israel. As well as the Palestinian state.
Well your fair at least.
That is why this wall, aimed at solidifying Apartheid for generations to come, should be fought vigorously.
Absolutly.
PS
Thanks for advance for any info you give me.
First off, Shakermaker, read my post in its entirety before commenting on it. That was sarcasm.
A little disclaimer. I wrote this and may have been a little too emotional at times. Don't take anything here as a personal attack and dismiss any stupid ad hominems. I appologize in advance if there are any.
Now to enigma:
Well I'm sorry, if you are offended, I truly am. But if you can find fault with what I said, and not just propaganda of your own, then I will be more than willing to listen as I said, I am no expert in this subject. Do you not believe that genocide is an inproper word to use? After all there has been no mass scale extermination of Palestinians... but the nabouring nations have advocated mass removal of "zionists" from the land. I believe the term "Driven into the sea" was used to describe the Egyption foreign policy on the "zionists" inhabiting the newly formed Israel.
According to the Zionists your people have never been in the History books. They claim that there has never been a nation of Palestine, just a region, in the same way that the Sahara is a region. They claim that there is little or no differance between a Palestinian and an Eygption. If this is true, I dont know, but they provide sources for what they say, I would be happy to see yours, to fully sway the argument in your favour.
I did not say genocide, I said statistical genocide. That is erasing a people from the history books. And you saying that zionists claim they never existed is pointless. I accused you of spouting lies, and you tell me they disagree. I know they say Palestinians never existed. I can't prove that Palestinians and Egyptians are different peoples, no more than you can prove that the Venezuelan and Argentinian peoples are different. After all, they both speak Spanish.
Oh, and when you talk about Arab nations' racist plans, you can say Jews, because that was what they wanted to do, expell Jews. But anyways, Palestinians shouldn't pay for their neighbours' racism.
Here's some links to population numbers:
-in 1880 the total population is 480 000, of which 24 000 is Jewish (http://www.sphr.org/history/historyframes/glance.html)
-1922 to 1943, there's a very clear majority of Palestinians in the are, the mass expulsions changed that (http://www.sphr.org/history/historyframes/documents.html)
or why they didn't accept the fucking desert.
Like the Zionists did?
No, I was talking about you saying they were offered the negev desert.
It was their home.
True, and I dont advocate kicking them out, but if you have only 4 people per sqr mile, it seems not to unreasonable to share some of that land.
Well, of course if you include Jordan in your definition of Palestine, you can reach 4 people per square mile. Heck, let's include Saudi Arabia too and all of its uninhabited deserts and make it into 1 person per square mile.
You have to understand, not everyone inhabits the whole land. Canada's population is mostly along the american border, above that it is pretty much uninhabited. If you were to include the pretty much empty parts of Canada, their density is 3.4 persons per square kilometre (encarta). Does that mean another population should be allowed to move in and occupy Canada? Cause that's what it is, occupation. Anyways, sharing would be, they're allowed to immigrate, but not establish a country based on racism and cost thousands their homes.
Zionists say that rather than an "an orchard along the fertile lands cradling the mediterranean" they had as Mark Twain described: -
"A desolate country whose soil is rich enough, but is given over wholly to weeds... a silent mournful expanse.... a desolation.... we never saw a human being on the whole route.... hardly a tree or shrub anywhere. Even the olive tree and the cactus, those fast friends of a worthless soil, had almost deserted the country."
Although much of Israel’s desert regions contain poor soils, the northern Negev, the coastal plains, and the interior valleys provide patches of productive soils (more encarta)
coastal plains. anyways, jordan is pretty much entirely desert, but the coastal region of israel is pretty fertile. and my point is, Palestinians don't want Jordan, cause that's not their home.
Another interesting claim of the Zionists is: -
"All land was purchased legally from the original owners... whether they be from "Palestine" itself or elsewhere. Furthermore, top dollar was paid for this land which, in many cases, was uninhabited and hardly more than swamp land and rocky terrain."
If it is true it kind of destroys the Palestinian argument. Yet after all if a Zionists says it some bias must exist right?
1935 Jewish people own about 5.5 per cent of the land (equivalent to 12 per cent of the cultivable land). They acquire it by buying land titles for land that has been farmed by Palestinians for centuries from large, predominantly absentee landlords. (from the first link)
If you know anything about Deir Yassin, you would know that the majority of land was taken by force or at the very least intimidation.
the population numbers you read are bull, I already provided some realistic ones. Jordan was very sparsely inhabited, filled with mostly nomadic tribes. Palestine on the other hand was not, being filled with farmers because of the much more fertile land. The Negev desert is the only area where nomadic Arabs made up the total population. Jordan's population only reached a boom in the 50's, when Palestinians began flooding in. That is why today up to 75% of their population is immigrant Palestinians.
The Zionists also claim that the vast majority of Palestinians are not infact from Palestine at all but: -
"The Jews had already begun mass immigration into Palestine in the 1880's in an effort to rid the land of swamps and malaria and prepare for the rebirth of Israel. This Jewish effort to revitalize the land attracted an equally large immigration of Arabs from neighboring areas who were drawn by employment opportunities and healthier living conditions."
now this pisses me off. :angry: my mother's family were there for generations. the indians only started immigrating into the americas when they saw the wonderful things the europeans were building.
anyways, it's ok, I don't take it personally. I understand how hard it is to sift through the bullshit sometimes. I had to go through the same thing and decide for myself that the propaganda I was being fed about Jews being evil was wrong.
At least you're looking for another opinion, and I respect that. :)
Please don't take offense to anything in my post, I'm kinda emotional about this subject. [/b]
Thanks for the articals, I will read them asap.
It just seams really screwed up to only see one side of a debate, so I did a little looking of my own, and posted what I found. Maybe that stuffs all wrong I dont know, but i will finish this discussion late coz I have to go to class now.