Is this anti-leftist?

[superborys]

I was wondering (and really have been wondering for a while now), would it be counter-revolutionary (that is to say, bourgeois even) to start a company playing the stock market and monetary market intelligently and cautiously...

Skipping all of the particulars.
Let's say that some leftist decided two years ago to start dabbling in money investment, and now his assets have doubled or even tripled. Would it be counter-revolutionary to do this even if he donated all of his surplus wealth (that is, money remaining after covering cost of investment et al.) to a revolutionary group?

I guess the question I ask is: Is it acceptable and/or reasonable and/or encouraged to work within the system to destroy it from within?

I ask because I have been considering playing the rapidly fluctuating Japanese monetary market, knowing that even though their economy falters now, globolization has taken such a strong hold that no one can afford to, or will let the Japanese economy die, and I don't see at all it being immoral to invest large amounts of money in a market while it's down knowing it will recover. You're simply riding the inflation to cash in your small victory.

[ZeroNowhere]

Counter what revolution? In any case, being a capitalist is not 'anti-leftist', because socialism isn't a set of ethical principles for living under capitalism.

[superborys]

I suppose I was vague.

Here I stand when I think of Revleft:

We're all here at least Socialist (though some of us are Communists, taking it one step further down Marx's timeline.)

We all (I imagine) think Capitalism is one or more of these: 1) Evil. 2) Flawed fundamentally and unsustainable. 3) Imperfect and needs to be replaced.

My question is then is being a capitalist of sorts against revolutionary/socialist/leftist ideals even if it furthers the overall socialist/leftist cause?
Analogy: Are double agents of the economic type allowed?

Should we look at the Greater Good so to speak, contributing to Capitalism, wage-slavery, etc if it expedites the destruction of that system?

[tbasherizer]

I invest too. If you don't rely on your investments for your living, and still have to work for a living, you're still proletarian- don't worry. I don't think it's anti-leftist to invest (this is probs self-rationalization though) because the objective historical trends that Marx observed happen independently of what any one individual decides upon doing, that is to say that Marxism is natural, not voluntaristic.

The trouble with this is, if you and I start doing well with our investments and get our own yachts, retire early, and all the rest, no matter how many Che shirts we wear or red stars we have overlaid with circle-A's, we'll objectively be of the capitalist class, and share its members' unfortunate fates.

[punisa]

I hope you cash in big. That will be the real test for yourself - can you still feel solidarity with the working class even if you have a fully secure life and future?
Sure, there were rich people who were still able to transcend the materialist component and be genuine communists (Che Guevara, Engels etc), but these are rare... very rare.

[RadioRaheem84]

use the extra money to fund leftist causes, magazines, groups.

I wish I had more money. Heck, it's not being anti-leftist.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

It's certainly bourgeois, though not necessarily counter-revolutionary. The latter largely depends on where your investments are.

I'd probably say you're a **** if your portfolio includes oil, construction projects in the middle east, utilities, hedging, sovereign wealth and vulture funds.

If you want to dabble in other equities then go ahead, though personally I think it's something to frown upon. I've been tempted before but could never bring myself to do it, since i've taken on a Socialist worldview.

[ZeroNowhere]

Sure, there were rich people who were still able to transcend the materialist component and be genuine communists (Che Guevara, Engels etc), but these are rare... very rare.
To be fair, so are rich people in general.

[The_Outernationalist]

use the extra money to fund leftist causes, magazines, groups.

Why would he want to waste money on a bunch of mini-personality cults that pander to identity politics and focus very little on real anti-capitalism?

[pastradamus]

Socialism does not mix with the notion of a stock market very well. Socialism being a rejection of capitalism and for capitalism to exist it is crucial that a stock market exist also in order to facilitate the exchange of private titles to the means of production. Private ownership of property and goods depends on their market value and so the stock market is a place where property is valued and goods exchanged by the bourgeoisie in order to set levels, standards and prices by which means they use to elevate their own wealth and in doing so contribute absolutely nothing in terms of labour and raw matierals. They simply throw money at a faceless body and then expect profit in return without any contribution.

But there are much more obvious instances of why Socialism is at conflict with the idea of a stock market. As I touched on earlier, no labour is applied through the medium of investment and as no labour is applied and no contribution made(other than monetary investment) this then sapps from the income of a worker person in some form or another - this is profit that he/she should be entitled to and not some investor from an outside source. Investors are shareholders and not workers, shareholders who do not work in a co-operative envoirnment are called capitalists.

Another thing is, stock markets also facilitate the multinational corporations as well as globalisation.

Within saying all this however, we all live is a capitalist society. I for example work for a company that I am absolutely opposed to. The work I do, I dont believe is in the interest of socialism. But I must make a living like anyone else. We all want socilaism but we must get by on capitalism for the time being. If I spent all my time protesting id be homeless by now. So I hope your investment goes well for you. Its not ideal but I think you are looking at a means to make some well-needed money.

[bailey_187]

get money get paid

[pastradamus]

get money get paid

Lets keep gangsta rap slogans to the music section.

[The_Outernationalist]

get money get paid

http://i51.tinypic.com/2mq6pnq.jpg

[pastradamus]

http://i51.tinypic.com/2mq6pnq.jpg

Personally I think id do much better with the money then this guy.

[bailey_187]

Lets keep gangsta rap slogans to the music section.

racist

[ColonelCossack]

Capitalism will collapse because of its inadequacies. As a result, manipulating the capitalist system to help bring about its downfall is what is going to happen anyway, because it is the same shit things about capitalism (eg, speculation, stock marckets, etc.), that are what are going to cause it to come crashing down.

[Wanted Man]

If you got rich, why would you want to donate your money to "a revolutionary group"? They probably wouldn't know what to do with it. They would just keep churning out the same crappy papers except in greater numbers, in full-colour and paying lots of people to hawk them every day instead of relying on a few starry-eyed idealist college students on Saturdays only.

So yeah, suffice to say, I don't think that any of you people have any concrete proposals on how to "work against the system from within", and it's all a bunch of hypothetical wank anyway. Most people who post this stuff just want to be reassured that they won't go to hell for having unclean bourgeois thoughts. I would love to be proven wrong.

[miltonwasfried...man]

If you want to change the world, you have to start with yourself.

[superborys]

If you got rich, why would you want to donate your money to "a revolutionary group"? They probably wouldn't know what to do with it. They would just keep churning out the same crappy papers except in greater numbers, in full-colour and paying lots of people to hawk them every day instead of relying on a few starry-eyed idealist college students on Saturdays only.

So yeah, suffice to say, I don't think that any of you people have any concrete proposals on how to "work against the system from within", and it's all a bunch of hypothetical wank anyway. Most people who post this stuff just want to be reassured that they won't go to hell for having unclean bourgeois thoughts. I would love to be proven wrong.

I would consider myself idealistically, perhaps foolishly and blindly, devoted to my principles and beliefs, and I certainly don't claim to have a scheme to destroy the system from within. Vindication is not what I seek, only advice.

If we can siphon off money, however little, and give it to groups that wish to bring down capitalism, why shouldn't we?
And if the argument of 'they wouldn't know what to do with it anyways' holds, then what's stopping anyone from starting a group with well-founded aims and intelligent, learned politicians that know how to make a difference? Is it immaturity of the socialist ideal and movement? Is it sectarianism? Is it the whimsical and idealistic nature of the majority of its adherents?

[Wanted Man]

Well I dunno, you're the one who's proposing it with this thread, so why don't you tell me? What good advice could I give you? Aren't you in high school? I think it's fair to say that most high-school students are probably not in a position to get rich quickly unless they get all their money from daddy, so surely it's all strictly hypothetical?

I think it's still too vague to have any serious discussion. One can ask all kinds of questions in this style. "Would it be OK to do ZOMGEVIL thing X to achieve long-term benefit Y?" Well that obviously depends, doesn't it?

[#FF0000]

Marx owned stocks too. Who cares.

[freya4]

I don't see the big deal in buying and selling stocks/bonds/etc when you're living in a CAPITALIST society. It would be foolish to abide by the norms of a society that you don't live in. If you want to make some extra personal profit, go right ahead. You're not a hypocrite, or an "anti-leftist", or any other such nonsense. The only thing I would advise you to be wary of is the risk involved in this sort of business. It's not a good idea to get involved unless you really know what you're doing.

[superborys]

Well I dunno, you're the one who's proposing it with this thread, so why don't you tell me? What good advice could I give you? Aren't you in high school? I think it's fair to say that most high-school students are probably not in a position to get rich quickly unless they get all their money from daddy, so surely it's all strictly hypothetical?

I think it's still too vague to have any serious discussion. One can ask all kinds of questions in this style. "Would it be OK to do ZOMGEVIL thing X to achieve long-term benefit Y?" Well that obviously depends, doesn't it?

I don't like the implication that I'm dependent on my family. Unfortunately I have to work to get things other than gas. I work currently, 8-5, 5 days a week, and I work 3 days a week during school, so I would say that the daddy argument is a little inappropriate here. We have to cancel cable in my house soon to keep in the black.

Anyway, I'll try to refine this discussion a bit more.

Maybe this should be moved to philosophy, but is it ethical and/or left to invest money (I'm not terribly savvy with economics because it's all statistics and a priori rules and norms in my opinion, but I mean money, not stocks, securities, bonds, or commodities) in a country's currency whose economy is straggling?

I don't know if I gave this example, but I considered investing something like $1000 in Japanese Yen when the Fukushima incident happened when the Yen was at a low. If I had invested money at the yen's low, I would have something like a 5% gain in money just because of the confidence recovery. Is that ethical? I don't know if there's an economics term to define that, but it feels opportunistic.

[#FF0000]

Your entire life is built on a foundation of corpses so investing in the stock market is really not a big deal.

[pastradamus]

racist

How?

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

This is ridiculous. Don't people understand that the stock market isn't some homogeneous 'market' for things to be bought and sold in? By participating in the stock market you are enhancing Capitalist relations, enhancing vulture funds, sovereign wealth funds, oil and so on.

Not to mention that the very act of buying stocks is essentially buying little bits of business, i.e. becoming a business owner. It is a no-win solution. You lose and you're screwed, you win and a) someone else (perhaps a worker) loses, b) your class interests could change. Not everyone is a Friedrich Engels, and just because he and Marx dabbled in the stock market, doesn't mean it was right. They were capable of wrong too.

People sometimes perform Capitalism-enhancing operations in their jobs, but the working class must sell their labour to survive. Playing in the stock market is neither necessary to survival, nor the performing of productive labour. It contributes nothing and is leeching. Besides, where do people find all this spare money to dabble in the stock market? Nobody really makes 100% or 200% gains, so to make it worth your while (unless you're 12 years old) you're going to be putting hundreds of pounds into these sorts of things.