maoism in turkey

[scarletghoul]

Saw 100s of Turkish comrades in London on May Day; the movement is much bigger than you may think. Heres some videos of guerillas, urban demos, etc just to give you an idea:

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Unfortunately not a lot of info is available on the turkish ppw in english, so if you have any good links or news then please share. Otherwise the point of this thread is just to make people aware of a movement that is all too often overlooked. :)

[AmericanSocialist]

Long live maoism!

[Devrim]

Unfortunately not a lot of info is available on the turkish ppw in english,

Possibly because there is not much happening to make information available on. I think the last time Maoists attacked anything here was about two years ago now.

Devrim

[Omsk]

An argument? On a discussion board? Unacceptable.

This a thread devoted to a certain subject,and the subject is Maoism in Turkey.Not left-com vs maoist debate.

[caramelpence]

This a thread devoted to a certain subject,and the subject is Maoism in Turkey.Not left-com vs maoist debate.

So? Someone asserted that there was not a lot of information on Maoism in Turkey. Another user pointed out that this was because Maoism is itself a relatively insignificant phenomenon in Turkey. A discussion (an argumentative discussion!) grew from there. I don't think the OP expected to have a thread on Maoism on Turkey without also having responses from people who do not identify with Maoism, especially when this forum has a number of Turkish users who are certainly not Maoists. I can only assume that your objection to any and all argumentative discussion is related to your fetishization of drab and authoritarian Warsaw Pact states and their senile leaders.

[Hebrew Hammer]

An argument all ready? Magical.

She said the secret word! Kronstadt!

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_uB-0D-gV8mY/STc2-YcZNbI/AAAAAAAAR-o/q4Rfv8vQHlg/s400/pee+wee.bmp

But back on topic, I didn't realize there seems to be support for Maoism in Turkey, I would be curious to know more. One member whom lives in Turkey mentioned something about we haven't really done anything in 2 years, that's a start for discussion.

[Omsk]

So? Someone asserted that there was not a lot of information on Maoism in Turkey. Another user pointed out that this was because Maoism is itself a relatively insignificant phenomenon in Turkey. A discussion (an argumentative discussion!) grew from there. I don't think the OP expected to have a thread on Maoism on Turkey without also having responses from people who do not identify with Maoism, especially when this forum has a number of Turkish users who are certainly not Maoists.

Derailed thread usually don't end up well.


I can only assume that your objection to any and all argumentative discussion is related to your fetishization of drab and authoritarian Warsaw Pact states and their senile leaders.

That was unneeded and i cannot see how it connects to the main part of your message.

[El Oso Rojo]

the republicans make more of an impact than us too

anyobdy who uses that dumb argument needs to check their brains for empty cavities because its as valid as me taking a piss on a container and selling it as mango juice

Why do you consider the Left wing to your enemy, don't you like to see the same thing? In countries like Turkey and India, Maoism make an impact, but not in the west.

[scarletghoul]

Possibly because there is not much happening to make information available on. I think the last time Maoists attacked anything here was about two years ago now.

Devrim


But back on topic, I didn't realize there seems to be support for Maoism in Turkey, I would be curious to know more. One member whom lives in Turkey mentioned something about we haven't really done anything in 2 years, that's a start for discussion.

There is definitely a lot of support for it. From the Turks I met in London there was huge support for TKP/ML and MKP. And I am pretty sure there has been armed actions within the last year or so, in fact I posted here before about Maoists and the PKK collaborating in an offensive. Haven't been keeping up with things much lately but they are certainly still active, and as you can see from the videos they are significant in size and energy

[scarletghoul]

This a thread devoted to a certain subject,and the subject is Maoism in Turkey.Not left-com vs maoist debate.A bright lantern will always attract flies ...

[Savage]

A bright lantern will always attract flies ...

what's so good about bright lanterns?

[Hebrew Hammer]

what's so good about bright lanterns?

Illumination.


There is definitely a lot of support for it. From the Turks I met in London there was huge support for TKP/ML and MKP. And I am pretty sure there has been armed actions within the last year or so, in fact I posted here before about Maoists and the PKK collaborating in an offensive. Haven't been keeping up with things much lately but they are certainly still active, and as you can see from the videos they are significant in size and energy

Interesting.

[t.shonku]

From the pics and vids above it seems that Turkish Maoists are impressive, now what is required is that they need to establish alliances with other Maoist groups in other parts of world, they need to team up with Maoist groups in India, Philippines , Bangladesh etc and if possible also with rebel groups of Latin America . This type of teaming up will help them in future . Like Indian Maoists are benefiting from alliances with Philippino Comrades .

[RED DAVE]

Where can we get information on their program?

RED DAVE

[Os Cangaceiros]

Haven't Devrim and Leo commented in the past that the Turkish Maoists only have, like, 100 militants?

[Kadir Ateş]

Maoism is fairly insignificant in Turkey these days, every now and then one will hear of the imprisonment of a few members of the TKP/ML, or the Communist Party Turkey/Marxist-Leninist. There are probably a few hundred or so members around in eastern Anatolia. Their big leader was a young man named Ibrahim Kaypakkaya who was famous for focusing on the "Kurdish Question".

[Savage]

Illumination.

yeah but light bulbs do it better


Haven't Devrim and Leo commented in the past that the Turkish Maoists only have, like, 100 militants?

yes but ''An ounce of Maoism is worth a ton of Ultra-Leftism'' -Friedrich Engels

[Agent Ducky]

I was told to warn my brother who is currently on a trip to Turkey to not say anything about communism while there as a precaution because of the maoist action there.

[∞]

You guys are all dumb, Hoxha for the win.

[t.shonku]

Haven't Devrim and Leo commented in the past that the Turkish Maoists only have, like, 100 militants?


What makes you think that they are only 100 in number????????????

Please post article to back up your claim

[Os Cangaceiros]

I wasn't stating a fact.

[Kadir Ateş]

I was told to warn my brother who is currently on a trip to Turkey to not say anything about communism while there as a precaution because of the maoist action there.


No, people don't discuss it because they think communism had to do with the USSR and therefore hold negative views of it. You have to remember that according to the official Kemalist line, "class identity" was always to be trumped by national identity.

Maoism may not even be on the radar for most people, unless they happen to take an interest in political history. He shouldn't worry. If anything, tell him not to discuss the Armenian Genocide (or even refer to it as one) or the Kurdish issue.

[Reznov]

Heres some questions I have,

How has the Maoist and, the general Leftist movement in Turkey evolved since it began? Has it grown, weakened, returning?

Who are some were and are some of the prominent leaders?

And how was the struggle going, and how is currently going?

[Devrim]

There is definitely a lot of support for it. From the Turks I met in London there was huge support for TKP/ML and MKP. And I am pretty sure there has been armed actions within the last year or so, in fact I posted here before about Maoists and the PKK collaborating in an offensive. Haven't been keeping up with things much lately but they are certainly still active, and as you can see from the videos they are significant in size and energy

I read the papers and watch the news on TV. These sort of actions get really hyped up in the media, and I can't remember seeing anything recently. The last one I remember was a combined operation with the PKK about two summers ago. It doesn't mean that they haven't done any actions, but I haven't noticed them.


Haven't Devrim and Leo commented in the past that the Turkish Maoists only have, like, 100 militants?

Leo said it.


What makes you think that they are only 100 in number????????????

Please post article to back up your claim

Obviously these groups are illegal and don't issue membership figures. It is an assessment based on a variety of sources, from articles to personal conversations. All of which would be in a language I don't think you can read anyway. Personally I think it is a little bit high.

Devrim

[Kiev Communard]

From what I have gathered about this issue, the Turkish Maoists seem close to Guevarist guerrillas of the 1960s or French Blanquists of the 19th century in their tactics and problems. There is no way they could ever attain their goals of conquering political power through isolated skirmishes/terrorist acts, or even through organizing singular insurgencies in some remote regions. The fact that they ignore organizing among the Turkish working class, which is rather militant and combative, speaks volumes about their political orientation as well.

[thälmann]

ok when they have only 100 members, then they are far bigger in germany. acording to the german intelligence services mkp and tkp ml ( or there legal organisations)have several hundred members each in germany, which could be real . i think the number 100 could be those armed in the mountains, but not the party members, get away followers of mass organisations.

[Devrim]

ok when they have only 100 members, then they are far bigger in germany. acording to the german intelligence services mkp and tkp ml ( or there legal organisations)have several hundred members each in germany, which could be real . i think the number 100 could be those armed in the mountains, but not the party members, get away followers of mass organisations.

Yes, that is what we meant originally. We were talking about armed militants.

Devrim

[t.shonku]

Obviously these groups are illegal and don't issue membership figures. It is an assessment based on a variety of sources, from articles to personal conversations. All of which would be in a language I don't think you can read anyway. Personally I think it is a little bit high.

Devrim


Give me the name of this obscure sources upon whom you base your assessment on?

Anyways before talking get your fundamentals right about strategy and organizational structure of guerrilla warfare, I exactly know what I am speaking of, and as far as education and ability to read goes I am far better educated than you, an engineer like me doesn't need to be schooled by obscure individuals.


Anyways why don't you post pics and vids of your organization? how many members do you have mate?

[Broletariat]

Give me the name of this obscure sources upon whom you base your assessment on?

Anyways before talking get your fundamentals right about strategy and organizational structure of guerrilla warfare, I exactly know what I am speaking of, and as far as education and ability to read goes I am far better educated than you, an engineer like me doesn't need to be schooled by obscure individuals.


Anyways why don't you post pics and vids of your organization? how many members do you have mate?

My d-, sorry, organisation is bigger than yours!

[RED DAVE]

Give me the name of this obscure sources upon whom you base your assessment on?Comrade, this is not necessarily an appropriate question, given issues of security. Academic or public sources are fine, but such information might not be public.


Anyways before talking get your fundamentals right about strategy and organizational structure of guerrilla warfare, I exactly know what I am speaking of, and as far as education and ability to read goes I am far better educated than you, an engineer like me doesn't need to be schooled by obscure individuals.Uhh, this is getting a little elitist. I would tone down the rhetoric if I were you.


Anyways why don't you post pics and vids of your organization? how many members do you have mate?If his organization is illegal, this would not be a good idea and is probably not a good idea unless such items are public.

If you keep asking questions like this and taking such a belligerent tone, people are going to start thinking you might be a cop, so i suggest you fucking cool it.

RED DAVE

[t.shonku]

I never said any one to sacrifice his/her anonymity ! Everyone is entitled to keep his identity.

Anyways if anyone makes some extraordinary claims he/she should back it up with appropriate evidence if such is not done then such claims have no value what so ever, they should not whine or complain when asked to produce such evidences they should have thought about it in the first place before they made such claims.

Anyways I am glad that we Maoists have guts to put our pics and upload our vids in net. When other obscure organizations shy away from such things we actually show courage to show our presence that is because we actually have an active presence around the world, can't say the same about the other obscure organizations

[Devrim]

Give me the name of this obscure sources upon whom you base your assessment on?

I am not talking about any particular source. I am talking about a totality of sources of information that lead towards a conclusion, from the national news to having family members in these organisations.


as far as education and ability to read goes I am far better educated than you,

I presume that you are not a native English speaker. What I meant by a language that I don't think you can read was Turkish. I am sure you are better educated than me, as I left school at 15, but I don't see what being an engineer has to do with your ability to read the Turkish language. Perhaps you can, I could be wrong.


Anyways why don't you post pics and vids of your organization? how many members do you have mate?

The ICC in Turkey is absolutely tiny. ICC members have always said this, and have never lied about it. The fact that the ICC is tiny doesn't make the Maoist organisations any bigger.

Devrim

[scarletghoul]

Well the main reason I find it hard to believe that they're that small is because I saw 100s and 100s of Turkish Maoists in London in May, they had by far the biggest presence there. I figured that if there are that many in England then there must be 10000s of maoists in turkey. Not guerillas necessarily, but activists etc.. the videos in the opening post also show many many maoists. Its hard to tell the size of the guerilla army, but it seems a safe bet that there are 1000s of active maoist revolutionaries in turkey, making them a significant force.

[Leo]

Sigh, ok. About the last thread on Turkish Maoism one poster had said to me "once again the maoists learn about (and probably soon forget) their own sectarian history from real marxists". I didn't think it would be this soon to be honest.

There are two main armed Maoist parties currently, TKP (ML) is the older name of the MKP. There are a couple of others which are less well known.

It is said that these organizations exist in the Black Sea region although they aren't based or concentrated in there in any way. They aren't based in Kurdistan either but in a singe Kurdish city (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dersim (http://www.anonym.to/?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dersim)) and they exist in surrounding cities yet more to the Alevi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alevi) areas in the West than to the Kurdish East. The independent candidate from the legal wing of one of these organizations, supported by other leftist parties such as the TKP and EMEP ran for the municipal elections in the mentioned Kurdish city and closely lost to the candidate supported by the legal wing of the Kurdish nationalist PKK.

The PKK today, it is claimed has a military strength of 7,000-8,000 at the moment. In the 90ies, the number used to be significantly bigger. At the height of their big recruitment campaign, the Maoists, it is said, had a thousand and a bit more maybe but not two thousand. Their military camps proved unable to support such numbers and the result is said to be catastrophic.

As for today, there are different accounts for the numbers of the Maoist organizations. My sources on this are entirely the Maoists who have been or are involved in this themselves. However, the accounts of the ones in Europe and the ones in Turkey are different. The ones in Turkey estimate the armed organizations to have the strength of a few hundred. According to what comrades from Turkey living in Europe say based on what they know of the people involved in Europe, the actual figure is considerably smaller. People I know here tend to be either involved in the movement in the cities and within affiliated legal organizations, or have been formally involved with the armed wing, have been in prison without becoming a confessor but didn't resume political actively after being released for personal reasons - in other words not high-ranking people. Their people in Europe tend to be among the leadership. The lower figures sourced from European leaders are more likely to be true than the higher figures from local sources as they exaggerate their numbers rather than downplay them - however honestly the former was so small (slightly more than 50 for each group, slightly over a hundred in total) that I couldn't believe it when I heard it so I am not going to make any clear guesses. I do think it is clear what the range is between though.

As for supporters, sympatizers and members of their legal groups, I would say that for the Turkish Maoists they are probably bigger in Europe than they are in Turkey. They used to be of course much bigger like all the left in Turkey before the coup d'etat in 1980, and lots of political people went to Europe as refuges.

[scarletghoul]

I see. Thanks for the info

[Reznov]

Sigh, ok. About the last thread on Turkish Maoism one poster had said to me "once again the maoists learn about (and probably soon forget) their own sectarian history from real marxists". I didn't think it would be this soon to be honest.

There are two main armed Maoist parties currently, TKP (ML) is the older name of the MKP. There are a couple of others which are less well known.

It is said that these organizations exist in the Black Sea region although they aren't based or concentrated in there in any way. They aren't based in Kurdistan either but in a singe Kurdish city (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dersim (http://www.anonym.to/?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dersim)) and they exist in surrounding cities yet more to the Alevi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alevi) areas in the West than to the Kurdish East. The independent candidate from the legal wing of one of these organizations, supported by other leftist parties such as the TKP and EMEP ran for the municipal elections in the mentioned Kurdish city and closely lost to the candidate supported by the legal wing of the Kurdish nationalist PKK.

The PKK today, it is claimed has a military strength of 7,000-8,000 at the moment. In the 90ies, the number used to be significantly bigger. At the height of their big recruitment campaign, the Maoists, it is said, had a thousand and a bit more maybe but not two thousand. Their military camps proved unable to support such numbers and the result is said to be catastrophic.

As for today, there are different accounts for the numbers of the Maoist organizations. My sources on this are entirely the Maoists who have been or are involved in this themselves. However, the accounts of the ones in Europe and the ones in Turkey are different. The ones in Turkey estimate the armed organizations to have the strength of a few hundred. According to what comrades from Turkey living in Europe say based on what they know of the people involved in Europe, the actual figure is considerably smaller. People I know here tend to be either involved in the movement in the cities and within affiliated legal organizations, or have been formally involved with the armed wing, have been in prison without becoming a confessor but didn't resume political actively after being released for personal reasons - in other words not high-ranking people. Their people in Europe tend to be among the leadership. The lower figures sourced from European leaders are more likely to be true than the higher figures from local sources as they exaggerate their numbers rather than downplay them - however honestly the former was so small (slightly more than 50 for each group, slightly over a hundred in total) that I couldn't believe it when I heard it so I am not going to make any clear guesses. I do think it is clear what the range is between though.

As for supporters, sympatizers and members of their legal groups, I would say that for the Turkish Maoists they are probably bigger in Europe than they are in Turkey. They used to be of course much bigger like all the left in Turkey before the coup d'etat in 1980, and lots of political people went to Europe as refuges.

Why can't we have more posts like this?

That said, would you mind keeping us informed?

[MarxSchmarx]

This a thread devoted to a certain subject,and the subject is Maoism in Turkey.Not left-com vs maoist debate.

Agreed. I just started going through this thread and will very belatedly move the off-topic stuff to politics.