Is being cynical Idealist?

[Rafiq]

Kind of a stupid question, but I was just wondering.... I've heard Milton Friedmen say that in all societies, people behave based on self interest, and, that's kind of true, right? (apart from is human nature bullshit).

[jake williams]

It's sort of a poorly defined thing. People do seem to largely behave in their own perceived self-interest, but a self-interest which both in belief and often in practice is intricately linked to various collective self-interests. It's not clear how meaningful or useful the concept is.

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

Self-interest only seems to be determined by external, material factors anyway. What is self-interest? Is it in my interests to make money? That's only determined by the economic structure. I don't think that self-interests are concrete parts of human nature but just absract outcomes of material conditions that vary where conditions vary.

Maybe there are some cases, as in where a person eats because they are hungry. That is self-interest I suppose, but is determined my natural, material circumstances too. I don't think that the self is as important as we like to believe. Its late, I dunno.

[Zugunruhe]

I think it's impossible for humans to act purely in self-interest from an evolutionary standpoint. Part of the reason that humans have done so well on this planet is because of our ability to work together with each other. Agriculture would be impossible without a community, and it's been proven time and time again that once a culture settles down and begins agriculture, they begin to directly improve technologically. I feel like this doesn't really answer your question, but it is tangentially linked, so maybe you got something out of it? :P

[tbasherizer]

Saying that people act in self-interest is like saying that stuff falls when you drop it. Don't be shocked now; I haven't turned ancap over night. Here's my rationale:

Assuming that you guys are all naturalistic materialists, you'll all agree that evolution by natural selection is what resulted in the human species. Therefore, we can all agree that the genes that set up the bases of human behaviours that exist are those that have survived until now. These include the genes that contribute to our tendency to be altruistic, to want sex, to like sugar, etc. I don't know about all of you guys, but I feel pretty rockin' when I help people out. I don't act out of some magical altruism force that Friedman seems to believe is what us leftists rely on, but out of the desire for that kind of good feeling, or my own self-interest. No matter what self-importance you build around yourself, you still act comradely because it makes you feel good. Therefore, to be altruistic is to be self-serving.

This is because over the eons, the genes for altruism were favorably selected, and because my particular material conditions corresponded to me becoming the person I am.

On the other hand, when Friedman implies that capitalism is humanity's natural state, he fails to grasp the historical basis of capitalism(I'm sure you all know this). Yes, Milton, we all do act out of self-interest, but the material conditions that shape human consciousness are constantly changing, and what predominantly fulfills our selfish drives changes with them. Now in corporate America it's seeing lots of orders of magnitude applied to ones net worth, but in other places and at other times, it is/will be/was altruism, love, sex, compulsive violence, and all other manners of human activity that the world might possibly screw people's minds up into gratifying.

To conclude, people are, when it really comes down to it, (and you don't believe in sky-daddies) out for what gives them pleasure, but this doesn't necessarily imply that we're all outwardly selfish. As the material world changes, so do our motivators, and the revolution will come when people don't buy the capitalist means of self-gratification anymore and realize that it might be in their interests to stir things up!

Oh Selfish Gene, I just can't get you out of my head!

[Rafiq]

Wait hold on.... Did Freidman really say that capitalism is humanity's natural state? What an idiot! Okay Milton, what do you call the other 99.99% of human history? Now that notion is Utopian and Idealist.

[CynicalIdealist]

...hi everyone. >_>

[Kamos]

...hi everyone. >_>

Oh lawl!

Anyway, it is possible that people act in their self-interests, but whether you rob someone for a bit of money to buy food or sacrifice yourself for what you consider a greater goal, both could be called "self-interests".

[CAleftist]

It is in a human being's self-interest to be social.

More to the point, capitalism is a historical development that demonstrates that "human nature" is malleable depending on the social relations of the time period.

Capitalism, however, has benefited one class at the expense of a much larger class. That is not collective human self-interest, that is class-based self-interest. Humans for thousands of years lived in communistic societies. Capitalism is the historical aberration, not communism.

[Ocean Seal]

Wait hold on.... Did Freidman really say that capitalism is humanity's natural state? What an idiot! Okay Milton, what do you call the other 99.99% of human history? Now that notion is Utopian and Idealist.
Yep its the same reactionary defense that reactionaries use to believe that they are free from history.
Because we have capitalism now, we'll always have capitalism. Its only natural
-20th Century Capitalist
Because we have feudalism now, we'll always have feudalism. Its only natural
-18th Century Feudalist

[DinodudeEpic]

It is in a human being's self-interest to be social.

More to the point, capitalism is a historical development that demonstrates that "human nature" is malleable depending on the social relations of the time period.

Capitalism, however, has benefited one class at the expense of a much larger class. That is not collective human self-interest, that is class-based self-interest. Humans for thousands of years lived in communistic societies. Capitalism is the historical aberration, not communism.

Actually, humans used to live in patriarchal or matriarchal families. Or, they live in tribes. They never lived in a communist society. It was also definitely not capitalism.

Capitalism and Communism are systems that arose much later in human history. Plus, why have your ideology sound reactionary as if you sound like that you want to return to the utopiac earlier times?

[RHIZOMES]

Self-interest is such a weasel word.

Try and define "self" and "interest" in a way that is appropriately universalising enough for that statement to be in any way considered true.

What Milton Friedman does with that statement is basically imposing Western notions of bourgeois individuality onto the entirety of humanity across all of time and space. A lot of non-capitalist societies don't really have entirely autonomous conceptions of individuality like we do but rather see people as being tied up into complex social relationships. How do you act in your own "self-interest" if you don't see your interests or your self as being seperate to everyone else?

[Apoi_Viitor]

Actually, humans used to live in patriarchal or matriarchal families. Or, they live in tribes. They never lived in a communist society.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primitive_communism