Pros and con's of communism

[Mythbuster]

I want to make this clear that I am a supporter of socialism and communism.

What are the pro's and con's of communism? I've been told so many things about it, I'm not sure where to begin or what to think!

Ps. Sorry if this is in the wrong category. I am new here :rolleyes:

[cogar66]

Learning?

[Mythbuster]

Not sure what you mean.

[cogar66]

This sounds more appropriate for the learning section imo.

[Mythbuster]

Ah true. I appologiese to the mods. I am a relatively new member. Can I or some mod move this thread?

[Blake's Baby]

While we're waiting for the move, what do you think are the pros and cons, Kohai?

[Mythbuster]

In all honesty, I am unsure.

[Die Rote Fahne]

Pros everything. cons nothing.

[xub3rn00dlex]

Pros everything. cons nothing.

Actually, under communism there would be no pros, since everyone would be equal :D But there would be workers who have finely honed and sought to better their skills! And there would be no cons either, only workers in need of rehabilitation!

[tbasherizer]

It is really difficult to assess that question, because the distant ideal of communism is often used as a Nirvana-esque solution to everything. Hence the 'pros everything cons nothing' statement. We really won't be able to analyse it until it's actually happening. If you asked a serf what the cons would be to legally being allowed to move around and choose his job, he'd give you a weird look. Granted, the difference we're talking about is more meta, but to hold communism as some pie-in-the-sky end of history is dangerous.

If you approach the communist progression of history as an emancipatory process, to look for pros and cons is ridiculous.

[Rafiq]

Who the hell is supposed to know? There most likely is going to be a shit ton of problems, if that's what you're asking... Just probably a lot less.

[Mythbuster]

Ok. But I hear that communism cannot work and it is a failed system.

[ZombieRothbard]

Cons: I wouldn't work and write poetry all day, and my poetry is really bad...

[LegendZ]

Ok. But I hear that communism cannot work and it is a failed system.You heard Santa Claus was real when you were a kid. Did that make him real?

[Blake's Baby]

Ok. But I hear that communism cannot work and it is a failed system.


You heard Santa Claus was real when you were a kid. Did that make him real?

I heard that playing with stuff in drains can make you sick. Was that true?

Kohai; no one knows if communism can work in a developed economy. We know it can in a subsistence economy, because the majority of the human race was communist for approximately 98% of its existence.

The reason no-one knows if it can work in a developed economy is that as soon as anyone tries it (eg Russia 1917, Paris 1871, Catalonia 1936) they are brutally suppressed, sometimes even by people claiming that they're preserving 'freedom'.

What failed in Eastern Europe was not communism. Unfortunately there are people here who will claim that Eastern Europe was great, but I don't think it was. But as it wasn't communism it doesn't really bother me that it failed.

But I suppose that you will have to work out for yourself what 'communism' is, and how you think we might get there. Then you can test the idea to see if it is unfeasable.

The other way to look at it is to take a look at the problems in the world now, wars, ecological catastrophe, starvation, the global financial crisis, and think 'what solution to this mess is there?' and the answer might very well be that if people were in charge of their own lives and making decisions collectively, instead of the rich and powerful running the show, things might be organised a bit better.

That, honestly, is the main appeal of communism. It holds out the prospect of a materially more secure and certainly more dignified life for the vast majority of the world's population.

[Blake's Baby]

Cons: I wouldn't work and write poetry all day, and my poetry is really bad...

Why do you think you'd get away with that?

'From each according to his ability...'

I don't see why the rest of us should feed and clothe you, provide you with shelter and power, or even paper and pencils for writing your bad poetry, if you're not going to work.

[ZeroNowhere]

So are we doing a cost-benefit analysis of communism?

[tbasherizer]

Oh, I see! Kohai doesn't actually know what communism means. Disregard my last post here.

[hatzel]

Why do you think you'd get away with that?

'From each according to his ability...'

I don't see why the rest of us should feed and clothe you, provide you with shelter and power, or even paper and pencils for writing your bad poetry, if you're not going to work.

Perhaps Zombie will be providing poetry to the best of his ability, even if he isn't particularly able. I vaguely remember reading something about people being free to choose the employment that they feel inspired to do, rather than being forced to take some job they have no interest in doing, just to get by. And also something about abandoning the distinction between intellectual and physical labour. Why shouldn't Zombie be free to pick the occupation of poet, if he so wishes...?

[Valdemar]

I want to make this clear that I am a supporter of socialism and communism.

What are the pro's and con's of communism? I've been told so many things about it, I'm not sure where to begin or what to think!

Ps. Sorry if this is in the wrong category. I am new here :rolleyes:

Pros are everywhere, like just system-equal laws for everyone, pacifism, economical equality therefore no more crime and other social deviation (murder) or are brought to a minimum, there is also totally democratic system, abolition of wages and labour, no more scarce necessities which will boost creativity of people and technological advancement, and much much more.
But, have in mind that I'm speaking about Communism (the end phase) and not transitional phase called Socialism, which in my opinion will-would-should be painful for our society (1st world, west).
I like to compare Drug Addict (no offense i hope) to our society, which is Addicted to unnecessary things, and like at Drug Addict, drugs are bad for him, hurting him and people who love him around, and his cure of addiction will be stressful for him and his organism...Our transition will be stressful and shocking, but it will bring us to better society.

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took advantage to replay, before it is moved to other section where i can't reply, because i'm restricted...
btw pleasee derep or rep me if you like or dislike post!

[W1N5T0N]

In communism, what would happen to people who do less manual-labor intensive work? teachers, writers, and yes, poets? How would the value of labor be assessed? (kind of the same question Rabbi K asked...)

[Thirsty Crow]

Cons: I wouldn't work and write poetry all day, and my poetry is really bad...
Recycling old misconceptions, eh?

No, you'd be forced to work since renumaration based on labour time would be a basic mechanism of distribution of the social product until such a degree of labour productivity is accomplished that enables free access.

But even with free access there would be a possibility of social practices aimed at you bad poets' bunch to persuade you to work 2 days a week. Social ostracism comes to mind.


Ok. But I hear that communism cannot work and it is a failed system.Of course you hear statements like that.
Just like what ZombieRothbard posted, such statements indicate that some people have a vested interest in producing ideas of this sort. This vested interest being in fact class interest.

Now, this statement is wrong on at least two levels:

1) there hasn't been a "communism" as a world system. Not a single one of the existing regimes ruled by the Communist Party ever claimed that the society which they ruled over reached communism.

2) the underlying "comparative" approach is beyond naive and flawed. Human history and human historical action do not conform to this silly idea of "hey, let's try this system out and see if it works".


I can honestly say that I think that one "con" of communism is the way it will probably be established - through bitter struggle which may take many lives. But then again, every progressive development in human history has followed the same pattern - even the universal suffrage which we tkae for granted now has been an object of fierce struggle, class struggle indeed in which workers' and their organizations played a hugely important role.

[hatzel]

But, have in mind that I'm speaking about Communism (the end phase) and not transitional phase called Socialism, which in my opinion will-would-should be painful for our society (1st world, west).

Why exactly should it be painful? Perhaps I have a different understanding of the word 'should' than you, but for me, saying 'it should be painful' suggests that we ought to intentionally strive to make it painful, that making it painful is a goal of ours. In such case, I just don't get it...


(kind of the same question Rabbi K asked...)

I wasn't really asking that question, I was just being annoying :lol: If Zombie were a talented and respected poet, though, and if society at large wanted to read his writings, then I'm sure the situation would be different, as his labour would then be 'socially useful'

[Valdemar]

Why exactly should it be painful? Perhaps I have a different understanding of the word 'should' than you, but for me, saying 'it should be painful' suggests that we ought to intentionally strive to make it painful, that making it painful is a goal of ours. In such case, I just don't get it...

Thanks for pointing out,
It does not mean, and I don't mean, that transitional phase ought to intentionally strive to make it painful, but choices which transitional phase (which) would-should be take would bring schock to the reactionary people and some uneducated and media spinned population. Of course capitalist would not watch idle those changes, they are (should-would) after all losing its privileges and power. So basicly they would fight with any means to stop the transition and restore power.
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rep me or derep if you like my post ( i should put this into sig)

[Blake's Baby]

So are we doing a cost-benefit analysis of communism?

No, we're just trying to find a way to explain what communism's about to Kohai who's trying to break with the propaganda s/he's been fed all her/his life...

[Comrade_Oscar]

Pros= Everyone equal, decrease in crime, smarter people, generally better society.
Con= We don't have it yet.

[Franz Fanonipants]

In communism, what would happen to people who do less manual-labor intensive work? teachers, writers, and yes, poets? How would the value of labor be assessed? (kind of the same question Rabbi K asked...)

from what i understand, under the soviets intellectual communities were set up, but non-manual laborers were not really allowed to become full-fledged party members.

oh and OP - if communism is a failed system, capitalism is just as much of a failure. the unchecked growth of monopolies, collusion between the state and capital, and economic inefficiency are all major failures of capitalism by its own set of values.

e: of course from a marxist standpoint, that's basically par for course w/capital.

[Die Rote Fahne]

Cons: I wouldn't work and write poetry all day, and my poetry is really bad...
If poetry is what you like to do, whether it's good or bad, that's fine. So long as you spend time actually writing said poetry, and not just sitting doing jack all.

I'd be either a paramedic, pharmacy tech or a university professor of history/poli. sci.

[W1N5T0N]

Take Marx. Do you think he would have been able to write all of his massive body of work if he had had to do labor-intensive manual work all day? I dont think so. What about people whose work is largely based on computer work? composers? I think it would be fair if everyone contributes equally to society, but only if that also leaves time for personal development and learning. Cause, frankly, i dont think anyone on this forum has been a farmer all of their lives, 24/7, and that is one hell of a tough job.

[ZombieRothbard]

If poetry is what you like to do, whether it's good or bad, that's fine. So long as you spend time actually writing said poetry, and not just sitting doing jack all.

I'd be either a paramedic, pharmacy tech or a university professor of history/poli. sci.

So, what is to stop all the sewer workers from deciding to be poets? If it was between shoveling shit and expressing my musings through poetry, id pick the latter.

Edit: Also another question. If I decided I wanted to be an Austrian School economist and my job was basically to be a professional dissident anti-communist, would you guys ostracize me or no?

[ZombieRothbard]

Recycling old misconceptions, eh?

No, you'd be forced to work since renumaration based on labour time would be a basic mechanism of distribution of the social product until such a degree of labour productivity is accomplished that enables free access.

But even with free access there would be a possibility of social practices aimed at you bad poets' bunch to persuade you to work 2 days a week. Social ostracism comes to mind.

Well my poetry skills are rather subjective aren't they? Perhaps I regard myself as a bad poet, but others would disagree and say I was quite good. Who decides whether I am a bad poet that needs to be ostracized or not?


Of course you hear statements like that.
Just like what ZombieRothbard posted, such statements indicate that some people have a vested interest in producing ideas of this sort. This vested interest being in fact class interest.

I started a topic on class struggle because I was utterly perplexed at class warfare and all of that. It was explained to me as the bourgeoisie vs the proletariat, something I understood class warfare to mean long before coming to this forum. However you just said that I have a "class" interest in producing ideas of this sort. My stay on revleft here so far has been overwhelmingly pleasant, and I have seen that you guys are quite intelligent and well meaning. However, when people bring up class interest and class struggle, it makes me think of the jewish global conspiracy you hear about on "ScumFront".

I assure you, I am not a bourgeosie conspirator, nor do I have any interest in promoting income inequality or whatever you meant by me having "class interest". In fact, I am a proletarian working a minimum wage job right now, and have been for the past 3 years.

[Thirsty Crow]

Well my poetry skills are rather subjective aren't they? Perhaps I regard myself as a bad poet, but others would disagree and say I was quite good. Who decides whether I am a bad poet that needs to be ostracized or not?You managed to miss my point completely. A word of advice, you'd better shed your subjectivist angle when discussing thigs here, not because it is inherently inferior, but because it makes communication much more difficult.

What I meant is that you'd be obliged to work if you were to make a decent living. Professional poets will become a thing of the past, but I would allow theoretically for a kind of a renumeration based on public feedback (an honors system of a kind).

Ostracising comes to the fore only in the case of free access, the so called "higher phase of communism", and only in relation to individuals who refuse to do that little work that is socially necessary.



I assure you, I am not a bourgeosie conspirator, nor do I have any interest in promoting income inequality or whatever you meant by me having "class interest". In fact, I am a proletarian working a minimum wage job right now, and have been for the past 3 years.Class interest is not a matter of "conspiracy". Rather, it is an analytical tool used to describe particular kinds of behaviour/ and particular kinds of ideas which people hold. It is in the capitalists' interest to procure wages as low as possible since wages are a part of the costs of running a business. There's no conspiracy here.

Now, as far as your promoting income inequality goes, in my opinion you are effectively promoting income inequality and, moreover, a certain kind of social organization which I find an abomination. You may or may not agree with this, or in other words - you may consciously reject your ideas being an apology for income inequality.

Now, class interest and the notion/phenomenon of social mobility (with all its ideological baggage, e.g. the "american dream" etc.) interact in various ways in different societies, and I'd presume that your case illustrates an example of one of these ways. Don't get offended, I don't think your an inferior human being because you identify with a social-political position which runs counter to the well being and life prospects of people in an existential position similar to yours.



Edit: Also another question. If I decided I wanted to be an Austrian School economist and my job was basically to be a professional dissident anti-communist, would you guys ostracize me or no?
If your asking for a personal opinion, I'd advocate that you be obliged to perform labour, as everyone else, and that you'd be more or less left alone unless you'd call for violence against the revolutionary government and people in general. Also, I'd advocate that people keep and eye on you because of potential interaction with underground Fascist elements and/or armed counter-revolutionary groups. But I'd oppose most definitely a criminal proceeding which lacks solid evidence. Also, no death penalty and no to labour camps in which people are worked to death.

Though, I wouldn't mind if the organized printing workers' denied to print your works and pamphlets.

[ZombieRothbard]

You managed to miss my point completely. A word of advice, you'd better shed your subjectivist angle when discussing thigs here, not because it is inherently inferior, but because it makes communication much more difficult.

What I meant is that you'd be obliged to work if you were to make a decent living. Professional poets will become a thing of the past, but I would allow theoretically for a kind of a renumeration based on public feedback (an honors system of a kind).

Wouldn't it just be easier to have prices? Isn't that basically public feedback without the bureaucracy?


Ostracising comes to the fore only in the case of free access, the so called "higher phase of communism", and only in relation to individuals who refuse to do that little work that is socially necessary.

Right, but what if the majority doesn't value my work. For example, I become an Austrian School economist. Would I be ostracized?



Class interest is not a matter of "conspiracy". Rather, it is an analytical tool used to describe particular kinds of behaviour/ and particular kinds of ideas which people hold. It is in the capitalists' interest to procure wages as low as possible since wages are a part of the costs of running a business. There's no conspiracy here.

Now, as far as your promoting income inequality goes, in my opinion you are effectively promoting income inequality and, moreover, a certain kind of social organization which I find an abomination. You may or may not agree with this, or in other words - you may consciously reject your ideas being an apology for income inequality.

Now, class interest and the notion/phenomenon of social mobility (with all its ideological baggage, e.g. the "american dream" etc.) interact in various ways in different societies, and I'd presume that your case illustrates an example of one of these ways. Don't get offended, I don't think your an inferior human being because you identify with a social-political position which runs counter to the well being and life prospects of people in an existential position similar to yours.

I understand what you are saying here, but it still begs the question of what my "class interest" was in providing a critique of communism? Maybe I am just ignorant of your beliefs or use of language (as if often the case), but to me it sounds like mysticism.

[ZombieRothbard]

If your asking for a personal opinion, I'd advocate that you be obliged to perform labour, as everyone else, and that you'd be more or less left alone unless you'd call for violence against the revolutionary government and people in general. Also, I'd advocate that people keep and eye on you because of potential interaction with underground Fascist elements and/or armed counter-revolutionary groups. But I'd oppose most definitely a criminal proceeding which lacks solid evidence. Also, no death penalty and no to labour camps in which people are worked to death.

Though, I wouldn't mind if the organized printing workers' denied to print your works and pamphlets.

Oh god, the organized printers workers! Noooooooooooo!!!!!! :crying:

See, this is where I disagree with communism on an ethical basis. It seems like dissenters would be crushed, and I personally believe that dissent is a healthy component of society.

[Die Rote Fahne]

So, what is to stop all the sewer workers from deciding to be poets? If it was between shoveling shit and expressing my musings through poetry, id pick the latter.

Edit: Also another question. If I decided I wanted to be an Austrian School economist and my job was basically to be a professional dissident anti-communist, would you guys ostracize me or no?

This is where democratic worker councils come into play. People aren't stupid, and they know what has to be done. This jobs will be voted on and volunteered for. They will not be a permanent thing for a person.

So one week a carpenter may be doing it, the next a shoemaker may be working the sewers.

If your posts consist of nothing but anti-communist rhetoric, not just pro-capitalist rhetoric, then you will probably be banned.

[ZombieRothbard]

This is where democratic worker councils come into play. People aren't stupid, and they know what has to be done. This jobs will be voted on and volunteered for. They will not be a permanent thing for a person.

So one week a carpenter may be doing it, the next a shoemaker may be working the sewers.

If your posts consist of nothing but anti-communist rhetoric, not just pro-capitalist rhetoric, then you will probably be banned.

I meant in our hypothetical communist society. If I became an Austrian School economist at a university, would I be socially ostracized?

[ComradeMan]

Pros= theory Cons = practice

[Thirsty Crow]

Oh god, the organized printers workers! Noooooooooooo!!!!!! :crying:

See, this is where I disagree with communism on an ethical basis. It seems like dissenters would be crushed, and I personally believe that dissent is a healthy component of society.
Dissent shouldn't be taken in the abstract. In certain cases, dissent is a healthy social phenomenon, in others it is a symptom of social psychopatology (hint hint Fascists).

[Blake's Baby]

When's this thread going to be moved to learning where it belongs, and ZombieRothbard has to stop spamming it with his stupid shit?

[Die Rote Fahne]

I meant in our hypothetical communist society. If I became an Austrian School economist at a university, would I be socially ostracized?
I have no idea. I mean, when communism comes to fruition, it's likely that all the capitalist schools of economics will die out, like the feudalist economics.

[Thirsty Crow]

I have no idea. I mean, when communism comes to fruition, it's likely that all the capitalist schools of economics will die out, like the feudalist economics.
Exactly.
In a developed global communist society, advocating the theories of the austrian school of economics would be analogous to someone advocating a return to feudalism in developed capitalism.

[Baseball]

This is where democratic worker councils come into play. People aren't stupid, and they know what has to be done. This jobs will be voted on and volunteered for. They will not be a permanent thing for a person.

So one week a carpenter may be doing it, the next a shoemaker may be working the sewers.


How is it beneficial to the community for it to lose the work of a skilled carpenter or shoemaker to work in the sewers, where, presumably, their skills are not as proficient?

[danyboy27]

I want to make this clear that I am a supporter of socialism and communism.

What are the pro's and con's of communism? I've been told so many things about it, I'm not sure where to begin or what to think!

Ps. Sorry if this is in the wrong category. I am new here :rolleyes:

Pro and con of communism reside in the possibilities and limitation of humans.

Humans are prone to error, and collectively, we can make errors too. Its possible for exemple that even tho every mean of production is owned and our civilisation florish, that we might create an invention that could mean the end of our world, we can without realizing it do something really messed up to the ecosystem.

On the other hand, communism would remove many problem our current economic system like world hunger, the energy crisis, would probably reduce the amount of armed conflict, and increase our technological progress.

Then again, its all about what we are, our main flaws and advantages.

[tbasherizer]

So, what is to stop all the sewer workers from deciding to be poets? If it was between shoveling shit and expressing my musings through poetry, id pick the latter.

Edit: Also another question. If I decided I wanted to be an Austrian School economist and my job was basically to be a professional dissident anti-communist, would you guys ostracize me or no?

Under (there should be a different word for it, 'under' has the wrong connotations) communism, there wouldn't be sewer workers, in the same way that there isn't thorium in the air we breathe. What I mean to say is that sewer work will be insignificant. It could be taken care of by advanced technology, democratically allocated into insignificance, or a mixture of both. In a communist society, there are no sewer workers- they're already poets (or whatever other 'dream job' you would envision).

I fancy you could be a virulent anti-communist, in the same way that someone could contemporarily argue for reinstating the death penalty for heresy, the divine right of kings, or the veracity of trial by combat as a means of determining guilt or innocence.

[Property Is Robbery]

How is it beneficial to the community for it to lose the work of a skilled carpenter or shoemaker to work in the sewers, where, presumably, their skills are not as proficient?
It's beneficial to every worker because their job will not be incredibly boring as they will be doing something new. Post revolution, Adam Smith's pin factory will not be utilized

[Rafiq]

How is it beneficial to the community for it to lose the work of a skilled carpenter or shoemaker to work in the sewers, where, presumably, their skills are not as proficient?

Don't listen to these blue-printers.

People will most likely do whatever they are most skilled at.

No one knows.

[Rafiq]

I meant in our hypothetical communist society. If I became an Austrian School economist at a university, would I be socially ostracized?

Lawl, probably not, but you would be publicly humiliated in a debate, considering Austrian economics is about as valid as Mao's theory on Imperialism.

[trivas7]

Pros everything. cons nothing.
Indeed, it will be nice living in the best of all possible worlds. :D




No one knows.

That's the ticket.

[Rafiq]

?

[RGacky3]

Pro's, its better than Capitalism. Cons, we don't really know, but nothing that capitalism does better.