A revleft joke

[The Teacher]

A worker, a social democrat and a rev leftist walk into a bar. The worker starts complaining about his money problems, his boss, and on and so forth. The social democrat proposes a series of common sense propositions that would help alleviate these problems that have been proven to work in other countries. The rev leftist replies, “Who cares about a living wage or health care for your kids? Who cares about safety regulations or union busting? We’re going to have a revolution any day now and when that happens all your problems will just disappear!”

****

Who do you think the worker is going to listen to?

Better yet, wouldn’t it be better if all three of them got on the same page? The leftist will have to swallow some pride and work for something that isn’t 100% approved as “revolutionary” but the worker might start to believe that the left actually cares about the workers, instead of being a bunch of snotty college dropouts who look down on other people.

[Kamos]

Refer to post #26 in that thread. You know the one.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

would help alleviate these problems that have been proven to work in other countries.

Elaborate on this, please, dear Social Democrat.

[The Teacher]

Refer to post #26 in that thread. You know the one.

Now you're just joking with me :laugh:

You're a funny guy

[The Teacher]

Elaborate on this, please, dear Social Democrat.

Some countries have a socialized medicine system. The US doesn't. That's one proven example.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

Some countries have a socialized medicine system. The US doesn't. That's one proven example.

Socialised medicine exists only in the imagination of U.S. politicians of the right and their quasi-left opponents. Europe has a terrible system that is a confusing mess of public hospitals, public funded private institutions and private-insured private hospitals, and this is about the same as what Japan has; for the rest of the world, private hospitals with some state-funding (as in the U.S.) is the general law.

And, more important to your general point, the former public systems are steadily being privatised and sold off because they have outlived their usefulness to the ruling class; they function better in the capitalist system when they can bolster share prices and drive stock asset booms.

[The Teacher]

I've never heard a Canadian complain about their health system, maybe some rich guy who flew to the US to avoid a waiting list.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

I've never heard a Canadian complain about their health system, maybe some rich guy who flew to the US to avoid a waiting list.

The Canadian system consists of private clinics and hospitals and a general state insurance with private optional supplements, that's just great. It was, like the British health act, for a time supported by many of the conservative political representatives as well as social democrats.

The Canadian public health care system is also being dismounted as we speak, as it is in Europe and Japan.

[The Teacher]

The question of whether or not something is under attack does not answer the question of whether or not it is superior to the American health care system "Die if you have no money." I think you'll be hard pressed to argue that anything is worse than what we have, in terms of how it affects the working class.

[brigadista]

they should both sit down listen and learn from the worker

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

The question of whether or not something is under attack does not answer the question of whether or not it is superior to the American health care system "Die if you have no money." I think you'll be hard pressed to argue that anything is worse than what we have, in terms of how it affects the working class.

I didn't suggest it was worse. What I was saying was, it's still shit.

[PhoenixAsh]

lol, common sense and social democracy in one sentence :lol: That is a good joke.

Its funny because in reality social democrats are simply cappies in disguise misleading the workers in making them think they offers olutions when all they do is perpetuate the problem and fuck the workers over and over and over when they have the chance to gain a better position for themselves.

So I truely appreciate your joke there :lol:

[Octavian]

The Canadian system consists of private clinics and hospitals and a general state insurance with private optional supplements, that's just great. It was, like the British health act, for a time supported by many of the conservative political representatives as well as social democrats.

The Canadian public health care system is also being dismounted as we speak, as it is in Europe and Japan.
I don't know what Canadian health care you experienced but the one I did has relatively low wait times and access to it is guaranteed for everyone. What kind of magical system do you advocate?

[praxis1966]

lol, common sense and social democracy in one sentence :lol: That is a good joke.

No shit. Generally, the only people you hear talking about "common sense solutions," at least in the US (dunno about Europe), are neo-cons because they're generally anti-intellectual ass hats who don't want pesky things like facts, figures, and nuance screwing up their ability to manipulate people's emotions.

Further, anybody who thinks parlementarianism has anything to offer the working class ought to take a look at the work of Rudolf Rocker, particularly Anarchosyndicalism: Theory and Practice as well as Nationalism and Culture. Whether you agree with his paradigm or not, there's no doubting he does a damned good job of documenting how time and time again working class movements have been lead down the primrose path by social democrats... only to later be left out in the cold in the name of compromise... and he does so all the way back to the beginning of the Industrial Revolution.

In short, don't get seduced by the appealing rhetoric of slicksters participating in bourgeois elections.

[PhoenixAsh]

Not to mention the fact that the european liberals often overturn everything they did manage to accomplish and then there is a huge political fight and eventually the soc dems regain power over mountains of promisses

...AND THEY DON'T CHANGE IT BACK. :ohmy:

That should be a sure fire indicator of how much we should not trust them.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

I don't know what Canadian health care you experienced but the one I did has relatively low wait times and access to it is guaranteed for everyone. What kind of magical system do you advocate?

Let me get this straight, you fancy a health care system that depends on insurance as ideal? You think that a system of private clinics getting subsidies for use from tax money is good?

It's better than the United States, yes, but that doesn't say much. It's still shit and equals government handout to private industry.

nvm you think Canada is "most socialist country"...

[The Dark Side of the Moon]

they should both sit down listen and learn from the worker

Like that's going to happen

[Rusty Shackleford]

Social democracy is completely bankrupt. It is contradictory as well and is not socialist in any reasonable way.

Social democracy has really only taken off in imperialist or west/northern european countries. And im not talking about the social democracy of the early 1900s (which was marxist) im talking about modern social democracy.

It relies on a strong capitalist economy. without it, where would it get its tax revenue from to fund all these programs? Taxing the wealthy and corporations isnt socialism. and simply providing welfare programs isnt socialism.

Now, am i against fighting for these reforms? no. anything can help. when it gets taken away also shows the futility of reforms under capitalism.

social democracy is simply a temporary solution to a systemic problem.

[Coggeh]

Better yet, wouldn’t it be better if all three of them got on the same page? The leftist will have to swallow some pride and work for something that isn’t 100% approved as “revolutionary” but the worker might start to believe that the left actually cares about the workers, instead of being a bunch of snotty college dropouts who look down on other people.[/FONT]
To which the revleftist replies:http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb2/1990CamaroRS/BanCannon.jpg

I'm just messing with ya. I can see where your coming from. The point is leftists don't hold up there noses at key reforms such as free health care etc within capitalism we actively fight tooth and nail for them and to defend them when the capitalists attack them. The point is the reform the capitalist grants today can easily be swept aside tomorrow only with a socialist solution could such reforms be permanent and in the case of healthcare be improved through proper investment and democracy with regards the running of the system. Your jumping the gun here a bit.

[Dumb]

A worker, a social democrat and a RevLefter walk into a bar. The worker complains about his money problems, his boss, etc.

The social democrat offers a legislative agenda to help the worker with "kitchen table issues."

The rev leftist replies, “We've never gotten lasting change from within the system. Look at all the cuts taking place in Europe today - what we need instead is a revolution to topple the system and establish economic democracy in the workplace, so that workers can finally control their own lives."

Then the Republican walks in, utters the phrase, "Tax cuts," and leaves - with the worker following right behind.

[Dumb]

I also have to admit that part of me expected the OP to show a screen shot of revleft.com.

[praxis1966]

:laugh:

I asked you nicely once before to be mindful of the fact that this isn't Chit-Chat. Please refer to this forum's guidelines (http://www.revleft.com/vb/forum-and-its-t154046/index.html) if you are unclear about what is and isn't acceptable.

Consider this a verbal warning for spam posting.

Edit: Coggeh, in the future, you may want to reconsider posting memes. They're disruptive to the discussion no matter how funny they are.

[praxis1966]

Also, since this is clearly now a political discussion, moved to politics.

[Old Mole]

Okay, so according to the OP the worker is a worker, the communist is a "snotty college student", but what is the social democrat??? Is this the joke? That social democracy is a bourgeois ideology, because we all know that.

I know another "joke": social democracy itself. In reality no communist is against reforms beneficial to the working class, because the large majority ARE workers. At least were I come from. Social democrats on the other hand are in reality the ENEMIES of the working class, they have turned trade unions and grassroot organisations into part of the state apparatus, they have then sold out the interests of the working class to the bourgeoisie. They stop us from striking, they often like free trade, they fight revolutionary movements. Leaders of modern social democracy even go as far as describing it as "neoliberalism with a human face" (Tony Blair). Strauss Kahn is a social democrat for heavens sake! If you dont see that the social democrats are our enemies then you are BLIND.

[Hit The North]

I think the real joke is that someone who is so ignorant about how real revolutionaries approach the political questions of the day, has the nerve and lack of self-awareness to come here and call themselves "The Teacher".

[Leftsolidarity]

Social democracy is completely bankrupt. It is contradictory as well and is not not socialist in any reasonable way.

Social democracy has really only taken off in imperialist or west/northern european countries. And im not talking about the social democracy of the early 1900s (which was marxist) im talking about modern social democracy.

It relies on a strong capitalist economy. without it, where would it get its tax revenue from to fund all these programs? Taxing the wealthy and corporations isnt socialism. and simply providing welfare programs isnt socialism.

Now, am i against fighting for these reforms? no. anything can help. when it gets taken away also shows the futility of reforms under capitalism.

social democracy is simply a temporary solution to a systemic problem.

^This person knows what's up^ :thumbup:

[Crux]

A worker, a social democrat and a rev leftist walk into a bar. The worker starts complaining about his money problems, his boss, and on and so forth. The social democrat proposes a series of common sense propositions that would help alleviate these problems that have been proven to work in other countries. The rev leftist replies, “Who cares about a living wage or health care for your kids? Who cares about safety regulations or union busting? We’re going to have a revolution any day now and when that happens all your problems will just disappear!”

****

Who do you think the worker is going to listen to?

Better yet, wouldn’t it be better if all three of them got on the same page? The leftist will have to swallow some pride and work for something that isn’t 100% approved as “revolutionary” but the worker might start to believe that the left actually cares about the workers, instead of being a bunch of snotty college dropouts who look down on other people.
Do you even have a concept of what modern social democracy has become? They might offer " common sense solutions", but it's none of those larger reforms in eras gone by. And by the way I am swedish, a country commonly brought up as a sucessfull example of social democracy. Let me tell you this, there is in actuality not that much of the welfare state left, and even in the golden era, taht would be the 60's and 70's the worker's had to fight hard, not so much around salary issues as work conditions. And before that in the 20's and 30's sweden saw massive labour struggles, this is what drove the change, not the goodness of the soc dem parliamentarians, although most of them are certainly worth more than the sad shadow of reformism we have today.

[Rusty Shackleford]

^This person knows what's up^ :thumbup:
for the record. i did edit that post and took out the double negative in the first line. "not not" has been reduced to "not" :lol:

[Leftsolidarity]

for the record. i did edit that post and took out the double negative in the first line. "not not" has been reduced to "not" :lol:

Yeah double negatives are sooo bourgeois

[Aspiring Humanist]

Implying bourgeois politics ever changed anything

[Rusty Shackleford]

Implying bourgeois politics ever changed anything
abolition of feudalism. proletarianization, republican democracy....

[Blackscare]

Isn't it the "socialists" that are the most ardently pushing forward austerity and restructuring in Greece right now? Can anyone actually still argue that european soc-dems have any interests beyond meting out enough social programs to pacify the populace and withdrawing such things when "economic necessity" (IE, appeasing the bourgeoisie ) becomes paramount?


Clearly the socialists have no interest beyond preserving their power. When capital is flowing in, that means social programs and such, when capital is short or there is a deficit, that means fucking the workers. It's a political strategy, nothing more.

[Tim Finnegan]

Do any of you buggers think that maybe his point wasn't so much that the far-left needs to sound more like social democrats, but that it needs to start offering more in the way of concrete programs than what I you could quite easily call "red eschatology"? At present, all we have to offer is "revolution is coming, so hang on", - and, if we're feeling a bit more populist, "until then, vote Labour and defend the reformist unions"- which is what you might, if you were feeling less than entirely eloquent, describe as being just a wee bit shite.

What the working class needs, at the moment, is a class-based mass movement- not a revolutionary one, that'll come with time- and that is not something that most left-wing groups have actually set about pursuing in any substantial fashion. There is, to be entirely frank, objectively more value in something as compromised and reformist as Die Linke than there is in 90% of the far-left sects put together.

[Geiseric]

Isnt cuban healthcare pretty good?

[Blackscare]

Do any of you buggers think that maybe his point wasn't so much that the far-left needs to sound more like social democrats, but that it needs to start offering more in the way of concrete programs than what I you could quite easily call "red eschatology"?

I wouldn't say I could "easily" call it that; I've never even come across that word, and I don't think that I could pronounce it.

[praxis1966]

Do any of you buggers think that maybe his point wasn't so much that the far-left needs to sound more like social democrats, but that it needs to start offering more in the way of concrete programs than what I you could quite easily call "red eschatology"?

I might if he hadn't bailed on the thread halfway through the first page. As it stands, the world may never know.

[Tim Finnegan]

I wouldn't say I could "easily" call it that; I've never even come across that word, and I don't think that I could pronounce it.
Heh, fair dos. :laugh: For those who can't be bothered to look it up, it refers, broadly speaking, to apocalyptic prophecies and narratives, specifically those of a messianic nature.


I might if he hadn't bailed on the thread halfway through the first page. As it stands, the world may never know.
Heh, maybe. I suppose what I'm mostly offering there is my own take on it, rather than trying to make any argument on his behalf.

[genstrike]

Here's one: A worker and a social democrat walk into a bar. The worker starts complaining about his money problems. Then the worker punches the social democrat right in the fucking face for administering the austerity programs and assaults on public sector workers that cause his money problems.

[RebelDog]

A worker, a social democrat and a rev leftist walk into a bar. The worker starts complaining about his money problems, his boss, and on and so forth. The social democrat proposes a series of common sense propositions that would help alleviate these problems that have been proven to work in other countries. The rev leftist replies, “Who cares about a living wage or health care for your kids? Who cares about safety regulations or union busting? We’re going to have a revolution any day now and when that happens all your problems will just disappear!”

****

Who do you think the worker is going to listen to?

Better yet, wouldn’t it be better if all three of them got on the same page? The leftist will have to swallow some pride and work for something that isn’t 100% approved as “revolutionary” but the worker might start to believe that the left actually cares about the workers, instead of being a bunch of snotty college dropouts who look down on other people.

We have already tried Tony Blair's 'third way' and would you believe it, we're far worst off now than than in 1997. I think the message is that the working class should listen to nobody but themselves and act for themselves as a class.

[bcbm]

abolition of feudalism. proletarianization, republican democracy....

all of which came as a counter-attack to a cross continental mass movement against feudalism and proto-captalism and for a more egalitarian world.

[ZeroNowhere]

Eh, we're not trying to convince workers by force of argument anyway, who cares. Events have their own logic, even when human beings do not.

[Hit The North]

Eh, we're not trying to convince workers by force of argument anyway, who cares. Events have their own logic, even when human beings do not.

Erm, credit where it's due, comrade - Rosa Luxemburg said that.

[ZeroNowhere]

I assumed that everyone would recognize it thanks to you anyway.

[The Teacher]

I have to admit that I am largely ignorant of European politics. The term "social democrat" must mean something quite different on that sode of the ocean. In the States its almost a synonym for marxism, at least among the majority of people who don't have a clue about the specifics of left politics. Frankly we're all communists as far as they are concerned.

Seriously though, have you ever heard someone on the far left offer a solution to anything other that "When the revolution comes...."

[El Louton]

The NHS is being privatised :(

[Rusty Shackleford]

I have to admit that I am largely ignorant of European politics. The term "social democrat" must mean something quite different on that sode of the ocean. In the States its almost a synonym for marxism, at least among the majority of people who don't have a clue about the specifics of left politics. Frankly we're all communists as far as they are concerned.

Seriously though, have you ever heard someone on the far left offer a solution to anything other that "When the revolution comes...."
i live in the US, i am in the state people in the rest of the country fondly call "the peoples republic of california" so no, people dont really know what socialism is.

Sure there are groups like the RCP and PLP who only yell "red army revolution NOW!!!" and "weve got leadership and weve got the solution, what we need is a revolution" but they are small groups that at least ive only seen on occasion(RCP that is, ive never seen PLP).

The Bolsheviks, in their day, Supported the idea of a liberal democracy taking power after the overthrow of the tsar. They didnt think they were capable of actually making revolution. The liberal Kerensky sucked ass and they kicked him out.

Also, i have stated before, Revolutionaries support the demand for reforms but we know they wont really help the situation. We know we must go beyond reforms because ultimately reforms are not permanent and they dont fix the underlying problem. Our goal is revolution, but we support reforms when the people ask for them and we have no power to change that. Also, why would we keep offering solutions of reforms when most of the people in the US dont give a damn about voting and dont trust politicians?

[ColonelCossack]

The Canadian public health care system is also being dismounted as we speak, as it is in Europe and Japan.

The tory party is currently conducting the largest attack on the welfare state since its formation, which is why social-democracy is always doomed to failure- because eventually right wingers get voted in and destroy any social welfare system put in place by any slightly left wing government.

[Leftsolidarity]

I have to admit that I am largely ignorant of European politics. The term "social democrat" must mean something quite different on that sode of the ocean. In the States its almost a synonym for marxism, at least among the majority of people who don't have a clue about the specifics of left politics. Frankly we're all communists as far as they are concerned.

Seriously though, have you ever heard someone on the far left offer a solution to anything other that "When the revolution comes...."

I live in the US and they mean the same. A social democrat means the same on both sides of the ocean. The meaning a long time ago used to be far more radical though. Social democrats of today are just lap dogs of the capitalists. This is copy and paste from The Communist Manifesto:


2. Conservative or Bourgeois Socialism


A part of the bourgeoisie is desirous of redressing social grievances in order to secure the continued existence of bourgeois society.
To this section belong economists, philanthropists, humanitarians, improvers of the condition of the working class, organisers of charity, members of societies for the prevention of cruelty to animals, temperance fanatics, hole-and-corner reformers of every imaginable kind. This form of socialism has, moreover, been worked out into complete systems.
We may cite Proudhon’s Philosophie de la Misère as an example of this form.
The Socialistic bourgeois want all the advantages of modern social conditions without the struggles and dangers necessarily resulting therefrom. They desire the existing state of society, minus its revolutionary and disintegrating elements. They wish for a bourgeoisie without a proletariat. The bourgeoisie naturally conceives the world in which it is supreme to be the best; and bourgeois Socialism develops this comfortable conception into various more or less complete systems. In requiring the proletariat to carry out such a system, and thereby to march straightway into the social New Jerusalem, it but requires in reality, that the proletariat should remain within the bounds of existing society, but should cast away all its hateful ideas concerning the bourgeoisie.
A second, and more practical, but less systematic, form of this Socialism sought to depreciate every revolutionary movement in the eyes of the working class by showing that no mere political reform, but only a change in the material conditions of existence, in economical relations, could be of any advantage to them. By changes in the material conditions of existence, this form of Socialism, however, by no means understands abolition of the bourgeois relations of production, an abolition that can be affected only by a revolution, but administrative reforms, based on the continued existence of these relations; reforms, therefore, that in no respect affect the relations between capital and labour, but, at the best, lessen the cost, and simplify the administrative work, of bourgeois government.
Bourgeois Socialism attains adequate expression when, and only when, it becomes a mere figure of speech.
Free trade: for the benefit of the working class. Protective duties: for the benefit of the working class. Prison Reform: for the benefit of the working class. This is the last word and the only seriously meant word of bourgeois socialism.
It is summed up in the phrase: the bourgeois is a bourgeois — for the benefit of the working class.

[Hammilton]

I've never heard a Canadian complain about their health system, maybe some rich guy who flew to the US to avoid a waiting list.

How many non-leftist Canadians do you know?

The Canadians I know are fairly liberal, but rarely have a good thing to say about their health care system.

heh there's an advert here for BLUESTAR Jets, only 3,400/Hr on a midsized jet...

[Revy]

In the States its almost a synonym for marxism
No it is not. That is such a ridiculous statement.

Social democrats in the USA actively campaign for the Democratic Party. When the social democrats split from the SP-USA a few years ago, that's exactly what they did after leaving.

If they had taken over the party, the party would have become just like the CP-USA, or DSA. Indeed, the old SP of the '60s was taken over by social democrats, who moved it in the direction of supporting the Democrats. That's why the SP-USA was created in the first place, to get the SP back to being a socialist party.

[Tim Finnegan]

No it is not. That is such a ridiculous statement.

Social democrats in the USA actively campaign for the Democratic Party. When the social democrats split from the SP-USA a few years ago, that's exactly what they did after leaving.

If they had taken over the party, the party would have become just like the CP-USA, or DSA. Indeed, the old SP of the '60s was taken over by social democrats, who moved it in the direction of supporting the Democrats. That's why the SP-USA was created in the first place, to get the SP back to being a socialist party.
He meant in the popular imagination, not in objective terms.

[Leftsolidarity]

He meant in the popular imagination, not in objective terms.

It is still not true though. To be honest I don't think many Americans even know what social democracy is or have heard of it.

[The Teacher]

[QUOTE=Revy;2152882]No it is not. That is such a ridiculous statement.

QUOTE]

Ask any guy on the street what he thinks it means.

[Leftsolidarity]

[QUOTE=Revy;2152882]No it is not. That is such a ridiculous statement.

QUOTE]

Ask any guy on the street what he thinks it means.

He most likely won't have a clue what you are talking about.

[The Teacher]

True, but anyone on the right knows that anything with the word "social" in it is a commie plot

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

True, but anyone on the right knows that anything with the word "social" in it is a commie plot

It's not like it is any concern of ours what the Beckoids think at the moment. Those things are not static.

[Leftsolidarity]

True, but anyone on the right knows that anything with the word "social" in it is a commie plot

What's your point? There are a number of things wrong with the attitude you're taking.

Are we merely pandering to and appeasing the right? Are we supposed to defend it just because our "enemies" attack it and think it is the same as us? Just because it is thought to be the same or an ally to us does that make it true? If we hear good rhetoric about it does it change how it acts in the real world?

No.

[The Intransigent Faction]

How many non-leftist Canadians do you know?

The Canadians I know are fairly liberal, but rarely have a good thing to say about their health care system.

Really? I've never had problems with it, and my family seems satisfied. Granted its far from perfect but its hardly the most reactionary thing in Canada. I'd rather not see what is public in it dismantled for more privatized health care.

[Threetune]

A worker, a social democrat and a rev leftist walk into a bar. The worker starts complaining about his money problems, his boss, and on and so forth. The social democrat proposes a series of common sense propositions that would help alleviate these problems that have been proven to work in other countries. The rev leftist replies, “Who cares about a living wage or health care for your kids? Who cares about safety regulations or union busting? We’re going to have a revolution any day now and when that happens all your problems will just disappear!”

****

Who do you think the worker is going to listen to?

Better yet, wouldn’t it be better if all three of them got on the same page? The leftist will have to swallow some pride and work for something that isn’t 100% approved as “revolutionary” but the worker might start to believe that the left actually cares about the workers, instead of being a bunch of snotty college dropouts who look down on other people.

Leninist walks in and invites everyone else in the bar to join in the debate. For bar read - kitchen, bus stop, work place etc.

[Crux]

Leninist walks in and invites everyone else in the bar to join in the debate. For bar read - kitchen, bus stop, work place etc.



Thank god you said leninist, I was afraid you might be showing up.