Patriotism/Nationalism

[MattShizzle]

Can anyone possibly defend this, especially if you live in a very reactionary nation like the US? Why should you be proud just because you were born in and live in a certain country, especially when its actions should cause shame rather than pride?

[Leftsolidarity]

Bourgeois nationalism or stuff like black nationalism? Because there is a big long thread about that already.

[MattShizzle]

I mean bullshit like "Well, I'm an American so I'm more important than you cause you come from some other country" or "my country right or wrong", etc.

[ZombieRothbard]

I mean bullshit like "Well, I'm an American so I'm more important than you cause you come from some other country" or "my country right or wrong", etc.

Brainwashing via public education system is to blame for that.

[Leftsolidarity]

Ah, I don't see how anyone on here could support stupidity like that but who knows I've run into some stupid people on here lol

[Zealot]

Really I don't see the point of nationalism or patriotism unless they have something to legitimately boast about which I don't think anyone can.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Can anyone possibly defend this, especially if you live in a very reactionary nation like the US? Why should you be proud just because you were born in and live in a certain country, especially when its actions should cause shame rather than pride?

Man the USA really ain't that bad as far as raw nationalism is concerned. Sure there are plenty of patriotic yahoos who'll wave the flag and are plenty proud to be an 'murikan, but read a book about former Yugoslavia in the early 90's and then tell me that the USA is a nationalistic nation. The USA at least emits propaganda that anyone can come to the USA and become an American; the reality of the situation as far as immigrant's rights & upward mobility may be a different story than the propaganda would let on as far as how you'll be treated here, but at least that's the talking point. Compare that to the attitudes of many European nations...hell it was only relatively recently that Germany allowed Turkish Germans who were born in Germany to become citizens!

[Johnny Kerosene]

It's surprisingly easy to fall into. I used to be pretty nationalistic, though not like other people are less than me because I'm American kind of nationalism, like I'm proud of my homeland or something kind of nationalism. Actually, I'd say it's hard not to when you're constantly bombarded by pro-America war movies, when you say the pledge of allegiance every day in school, when there are American flags fucking everywhere, when almost every single adult you meet as a child (at least in the south) tells you how damn great America is and how lucky we are to live there, when soldiers/sailors/airmen/marines are glorified and treated as something more than human by civilians, when almost every single thing shown to children enforces patriarchy, is pro-America, and encourages us to buy brand names and not think twice about listening to our wonderful government, and when you can't turn on the damn TV without seeing something about America's "enemies" trying to do something, often with materials provided by the US or after being provoked by the US, but they were stopped by our all-powerful, friendly, protective, fair and just government. *cue waving flag background with an eagle in the foreground as the national anthem plays*
Basically, incessant propaganda that's reinforced by those who had the misfortune of buying into it years ago and who are unknowingly continuing a vicious cycle.

[MattShizzle]

I was actually screamed at that I should go move to Russia by the school bus driver in 4th grade for saying "Who cares about the flag?" This was in the early-mid 1980s.

[Dimitri Molotov]

I was actually screamed at that I should go move to Russia by the school bus driver in 4th grade for saying "Who cares about the flag?" This was in the early-mid 1980s.

Haha I was arguing with my science teacher last year as a freshmen for having a copy of "Das Kapital" on my desk. I lost my shit when she started yelling at me because she was like "Communism is horrible! We have troops overseas in Iraq fighting that right now!" and I was like "No we don't. . .! You are fuckin' ludicrous!" and she went on a rampage for like 15 whole minutes and ended with "AND IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE TROOPS THEN YOU CAN GO BACK TO CHINA" (I was never even from China to begin with...) so I just walked out and she was like "Where do you think you are going?" and I replied "China." and went to the office and sat there the whole time.

[Dimitri Molotov]

Can anyone possibly defend this, especially if you live in a very reactionary nation like the US? Why should you be proud just because you were born in and live in a certain country, especially when its actions should cause shame rather than pride?

Another reason that I see nationalism and patriotism as pointless is because we don't get to chose what country we are born in, we just happen to be born there, so if someone who is overly proud to be an American thinks America is any better than Iraq or Germany or Russia, doesn't mean that it is, because there is also people who were born involuntarily in all of those other countries who all think the same thing.

[Klaatu]

I cannot be proud to be American as long as the country is overrun with crooks in high places in government,
owned and operated by organized crime from private enterprise.

I do, however, believe in freedom and justice. Too bad these ideals are sorely lacking and actually under attack here.

[MattShizzle]

Haha I was arguing with my science teacher last year as a freshmen for having a copy of "Das Kapital" on my desk. I lost my shit when she started yelling at me because she was like "Communism is horrible! We have troops overseas in Iraq fighting that right now!" and I was like "No we don't. . .! You are fuckin' ludicrous!" and she went on a rampage for like 15 whole minutes and ended with "AND IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE TROOPS THEN YOU CAN GO BACK TO CHINA" (I was never even from China to begin with...) so I just walked out and she was like "Where do you think you are going?" and I replied "China." and went to the office and sat there the whole time.

:facepalm:
Sad a teacher would be that ignorant as to believe the Taliba/Al Qaeda are communist. Probably from the Cold War-era brainwashing of "all bad guys are communists."

[Blake's Baby]

As space and time are one, I have a suggestion that makes exactly as much sense as nationalism. I think instead of basing our group identities on where we were born, we should base them on when we born. I'm certainly going to demand the end of January back from those Aquarian bastards. In fact, I think we should kill all of them that won't join in the Republic of Capricornia.

[Ocean Seal]

Can anyone possibly defend this, especially if you live in a very reactionary nation like the US? Why should you be proud just because you were born in and live in a certain country, especially when its actions should cause shame rather than pride?
No you shouldn't promote or advance nationalism. Nationalism should only-and I repeat only be used in drastic situations. Those being the causes of national liberation. Not in advanced capitalist nations. Nationalism is the loyalty to a bourgeois state because you were born there. Its reactionary. In the United States, Europe and the industrialized world, nationalism is a major no-no. Perhaps it is okay to use it as a point of rhetoric. These capitalists are destroying our country-- is an example of a decent point of rhetoric. However, rhetoric like our country is great and should control the world--fuck no. I support the Iraq invasion because I love my country--fuck no.

[ComradeMan]

Patriotism is the love of one's own country, nationalism is the hatred of another's.

[Belevedere]

No you shouldn't promote or advance nationalism. Nationalism should only-and I repeat only be used in drastic situations. Those being the causes of national liberation. Not in advanced capitalist nations. Nationalism is the loyalty to a bourgeois state because you were born there. Its reactionary. In the United States, Europe and the industrialized world, nationalism is a major no-no. Perhaps it is okay to use it as a point of rhetoric. These capitalists are destroying our country-- is an example of a decent point of rhetoric. However, rhetoric like our country is great and should control the world--fuck no. I support the Iraq invasion because I love my country--fuck no.

You make a good point about Nationalism only being relevant in drastic situations. In Europe at the moment Nationalism is becoming increasingly relevant due to the attempt to surplant nation states with the EU.

[Old Mole]

Even when nationalism is used by quasi-lefties its reactionary. By saying that we need "national liberation" or "capitalists are destroying our country" you are in fact proposing the ludicrous idea that everyone in country X shares the country and have something in common, thereby hiding class struggle behind the veil of national unity. The working class has no nation, and it has already created all too many nations for the local bourgeoisies all over the world in the name of national liberation. Fuck third-worldism forever.

[Cork Socialist]

Even when nationalism is used by quasi-lefties its reactionary. By saying that we need "national liberation" or "capitalists are destroying our country" you are in fact proposing the ludicrous idea that everyone in country X shares the country and have something in common, thereby hiding class struggle behind the veil of national unity. The working class has no nation, and it has already created all too many nations for the local bourgeoisies all over the world in the name of national liberation. Fuck third-worldism forever.
Absolutely agree with this, Was gonna say something along the same thing.

[Die Rote Fahne]

Brainwashing via public education system is to blame for that.
HAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHA

Because it alllllll stems from Public education...nothing to do with the government, or the system that the government represents, or the news, or the corporate interests or anything like that.

[hatzel]

I'm an English nationalist inasmuch as I think Shakespeare was a great writer. But then I also like Gabriel García Márquez...hmm...I think that if an English(wo)man wants to be proud of Shakespeare, as an element of their 'Englishness', or a Colombian proud of Márquez for similar reasons, I think that's a different kind of national pride...I don't know...something about something, somebody else say something, I'll shut up...

[Blake's Baby]

But to be fair, what has Shakespeare or Gabriel Garcia Marquez to do with ous? Did we help? Probably not. Are we just trying to make ourselves look good by standing near someone who's admired?

I'm a big fan of Shakespeare, not because he was born on the same island as me, but because he was a great writer. I like Samuel Beckett, not because we share Irish ancestors, but because I like his writing. I like Joy Division. But I also like the Velvet Underground. Oh noes national identity crisis. People are complex and have influences from all over. Labelling those with geographical proximity as being somehow essential and those from further away as being alien imports is just... weird. It has no rational basis.

[Klaatu]

I believe that nationalisn does not belong in a free society. Nationalism is only for dictatorships.

[MattShizzle]

Pretty obvious Nationalism is bad but what about Patriotism? Why should you be proud just for having happened to be born in a certain nation? I personally think Patriotism is reactionary too.

[Blake's Baby]

I don't even know what the difference between 'patriotism' and 'nationalism' is supposed to be. 'Patriots' is what nationalists call themselves to avoid an association with Nazism, isn't it?

[ZrianKobani]

"Well, I'm an American so I'm more important than you cause you come from some other country" I've never seen this; it's my understanding that Russian nationalists are much more volatile than even the most reactionary American/


"my country right or wrong" Most in this camp, because of what we've been brought up to belive our country stands for, don't see a distinction between American policy and what's right. Not many are this dense and most conservatives I know lean more toward isolationism.

[ZrianKobani]

I don't even know what the difference between 'patriotism' and 'nationalism' is supposed to be. 'Patriots' is what nationalists call themselves to avoid an association with Nazism, isn't it?
Nationalism is support of your nation and the willingness to use force, etc. to see it's goals met; usually those of this mind-set see other countries as expendable.

Patriotism is more along the lines of wanting to see the ideals of a country prevail, no matter if it clashes with the current government or causes that government to lose power.

For example: a nationalist would be willing to suspend free-speech in order to see a war won, a patriot would fight the restrictions to free speech since it's considered a fundamental American value.

[Octavian]

Both nationalism and patriotism are the equivalent of an animal exclaiming how much it loves it's cage.

[ZrianKobani]

Both nationalism and patriotism are the equivalent of an animal exclaiming how much it loves it's cage.
Even if the animal has nothing, such as the Palestinians?

[Blake's Baby]

Especially in that case.

[Klaatu]

Both nationalism and patriotism are the equivalent of an animal exclaiming how much it loves it's cage.

Well said. ;)

[Octavian]

Even if the animal has nothing, such as the Palestinians?
I would classify that more of a fight against genocide.

[ZrianKobani]

I would classify that more of a fight against genocide. True, but isn't the goal of most groups (religious groups such as Hamas excluded) like the PFLP, etc. a Palestinian state? And isn't that nationalist?

[Napoleon Winston]

I don't think anyone here knows what nationalism is...
It's a country coming together bassed on culture or religion, what your all thinking of is patriotism.
Personally I think nationalism is a good thing, it helps preserve cultures, gives people a homeland, ect.

[#FF0000]

I don't think anyone here knows what nationalism is...
It's a country coming together bassed on culture or religion, what your all thinking of is patriotism.
Personally I think nationalism is a good thing, it helps preserve cultures, gives people a homeland, ect.

And a great reason to kill other people for dumb reasons.

[Born in the USSR]

Both nationalism and patriotism are the equivalent of an animal exclaiming how much it loves it's cage.


Just animals do not have a sense of patriotism .Those who do not love their country and their people cannot love other people - internationalism is impossible without patriotism. Those who are indifferent to their motherland need only chow and junk,they are subhuman in fact,such personnes cannot be revolutionary.Revolution is driven by love,by love of the motherland and of the people.

[Ose]

I don't think anyone here knows what nationalism is...
It's a country coming together bassed on culture or religion, what your all thinking of is patriotism.
Personally I think nationalism is a good thing, it helps preserve cultures, gives people a homeland, ect.
No it isn't. When people are born into a certain nation, they are born into a certain cultural framework that they do not choose. You seem to be saying that national culture is shaped by the (somehow non-materially determined) traits of its inhabitants, when it is in fact the other way around. This framework determines the cultural nature of the people via their upbringing.

Cultural self-determination is only possible with the abolition of arbitrary nations. Nationalism doesn't help preserve cultures; it prevents them from interacting and developing freely.

[Blake's Baby]

...Those who do not love their country and their people cannot love other people - internationalism is impossible without patriotism. Those who are indifferent to their motherland need only chow and junk,they are subhuman in fact,such personnes cannot be revolutionary.Revolution is driven by love,by love of the motherland and of the people.

People like you make me sick. The sooner the international power of the proletariat destroys your nation and everyone else's the better. Nationalism is poison, it's one of the greatest barriers to revolution that currently exists.

[Decommissioner]

Just animals do not have a sense of patriotism .Those who do not love their country and their people cannot love other people - internationalism is impossible without patriotism. Those who are indifferent to their motherland need only chow and junk,they are subhuman in fact,such personnes cannot be revolutionary.Revolution is driven by love,by love of the motherland and of the people.

That's probably the most un-marxist (or un-socialist in general) thing I've read from someone claiming to be a leninist on this board so far. It's pretty well known that patriotism and nationalism has no place in leftist politics. Those things are to be smashed, not preserved in any form.

Perhaps you are confusing your love for your culture and people you grew up with with patriotism?

[Misanthrope]

Brainwashing via public education system is to blame for that.

I had an eighth grade teacher who was openly nationalist.

[Napoleon Winston]

No it isn't. When people are born into a certain nation, they are born into a certain cultural framework that they do not choose. You seem to be saying that national culture is shaped by the (somehow non-materially determined) traits of its inhabitants, when it is in fact the other way around. This framework determines the cultural nature of the people via their upbringing.

I never said it came from the inhabitants, culture has everything to do with upbringing.
However, people will develop a culture either way, be it a local one or a global one, its a basic monkey see, monkey do mentality, and abolishing local cultures will just lead to a monoculture


Cultural self-determination is only possible with the abolition of arbitrary nations. Nationalism doesn't help preserve cultures; it prevents them from interacting and developing freely.

Amen to that.
However I don't believe all nations are arbitrary, I personally would like to see the world full of extremely small countries with their own unique culture and open boarders so that anyone wishing to become part of a different culture (or start their own) has that choice.



And a great reason to kill other people for dumb reasons.

Nationalism is a form of government, it doesn't endorse or reject violence any more than socialism or democracy.

[Ose]

I never said it came from the inhabitants, culture has everything to do with upbringing.
However, people will develop a culture either way, be it a local one or a global one, its a basic monkey see, monkey do mentality, and abolishing local cultures will just lead to a monocultureWhen did I say anything about abolishing local cultures? I meant national borders as they currently exist, which concern themselves with a great deal more than what we mean when we say 'culture'. Culture is not the reason why different nations exist.


Amen to that.
However I don't believe all nations are arbitrary, I personally would like to see the world full of extremely small countries with their own unique culture and open boarders so that anyone wishing to become part of a different culture (or start their own) has that choice.So in what way are these nations that you propose not arbitrary? I don't think you're talking about nations at all. All you're talking about is geographical and demographic cultural variance, which can happen without this kind of meaningless quasi-nationalism.

Do you think that, in a better society, such borders should exist and be officially imposed with a purely cultural raison d'être?

[Che a chara]

Patriotism, nationalism and this new ultra-conservative form of American exceptionalism clouds thinking and distorts judgement on issues such as foreign policy, immigration, and rights for minority groups and also manifests itself towards the upkeep of the privileged classes of the country and their interests alone.

Moral and conscious decay usually follows in patriotic and nationalist advocates. The glorification of war (state terrorism), plunder and exploitation domestically and abroad can be overlooked and justified if it's all done in the name of the flag and the nation. :thumbdown:

[Coach Trotsky]

Can anyone possibly defend this, especially if you live in a very reactionary nation like the US? Why should you be proud just because you were born in and live in a certain country, especially when its actions should cause shame rather than pride?

Shame for whom? Who/what do you blame?

[Coach Trotsky]

In a workers' state, where the working people themselves exercise power through their own organs of power, who ultimately decides and determines the laws, policies, and acceptable norms of our society?

To those who consider all forms of nationalism to be reactionary, let me ask, should all the workers pass up opportunities to overthrow the bourgeoisie in their only nations and instead wait to seize power until the proletarians in all nations are ready and mobilized to seize power simultaneously, so that the workers' states aren't delineated by separate self-determined nations? Have you really given this utopian ultra-left extreme contortion of internationalism much thought? How exactly do you think that a international dictatorship of the proletariat and the building of socialist society worldwide is going to emerge into actuality? This isn't about what you wish would happen, but what you think is actually likely and a practically possible process of international proletarian revolution that would cause that to actually happen.

[Blackburn]

Man the USA really ain't that bad as far as raw nationalism is concerned.



Nah I disagree. You guys are pretty darn bad, with your American Exceptionalism crud.

I can't even criticise Americans without being called Anti-American.

Admit it, there is a tiny part of you right now, that's thinking I'm Anti-American right? :laugh: (jokes)

[RGacky3]

I can't even criticise Americans without being called Anti-American.


Yeah, no shit, if your ctiticising Americans with just the brush of "Americans" what else do you expect to be called.

Its like me saying "French people are rude, smelly and loose, but don't call me anti-french."

But anyway, the whole idea of being anti-American, anti-french, or whatever is stupid, when people ask me where I'm from I don't say America, I say LA, saying America does'nt really say anything about my cultural background.


Nah I disagree. You guys are pretty darn bad, with your American Exceptionalism crud.


A, very few Americans actually believe in American Exceptionalism, B, America IS the dominant empire right now.


Nationalism is a form of government

No its not, its an attitude.

[Tim Cornelis]

Just animals do not have a sense of patriotism .Those who do not love their country and their people cannot love other people - internationalism is impossible without patriotism. Those who are indifferent to their motherland need only chow and junk,they are subhuman in fact,such personnes cannot be revolutionary.Revolution is driven by love,by love of the motherland and of the people.

Wow... I know this site/forum you may enjoy, it's called stormfront.

I'm subhuman? You do realise that's (one of) the first steps(s) preceding genocide right?

Revolution should be driven by the desire for liberation, not "the motherland".

Nationalism is collective Stockholm syndrome.

[Viet Minh]

I'm an English nationalist inasmuch as I think Shakespeare was a great writer. But then I also like Gabriel García Márquez...hmm...I think that if an English(wo)man wants to be proud of Shakespeare, as an element of their 'Englishness', or a Colombian proud of Márquez for similar reasons, I think that's a different kind of national pride...I don't know...something about something, somebody else say something, I'll shut up...

I was kinda proud of the fact that Sean Connery grew up round the corner from me (only a few decades before of course) that must be the most extreme form of Patriotism.. Streetism! :lol: On the flipside that same attitude is apparent with street gangs, in some places killing each other for no other reason than they were born a few blocks away. There's other issues involved but its still the same mentality imo.


I never said it came from the inhabitants, culture has everything to do with upbringing.
However, people will develop a culture either way, be it a local one or a global one, its a basic monkey see, monkey do mentality, and abolishing local cultures will just lead to a monoculture

Amen to THAT! That's not to say any cultural traits are eradicated, more simply that we drop the delineation between them as has been happening for a while now.


Amen to that.
However I don't believe all nations are arbitrary, I personally would like to see the world full of extremely small countries with their own unique culture and open boarders so that anyone wishing to become part of a different culture (or start their own) has that choice.

I don't see how you could enforce that, besides it seems pretty condescending. I live in Scotland, would I be forced to wear a kilt and speak gaelic? And if I wanted a KFC would I have to go all the way to Kentucky?


Nationalism is a form of government, it doesn't endorse or reject violence any more than socialism or democracy.

Nationalism is a social construct, your idea of your nation or culture is different to someone elses. I'd guess that in general American patriots are anti-abortion, pro gun rights, anti-immigration and generally conservative, these are things they feel are 'traditional American values'. And if you don't fit the criteria then you are not a worthy citizen, and therefore not entitled to rights as a citizen.

And no nationalism is not a form of government, nationalism can come in any form, from pseudo-leftist to pseudo-democratic through to fascist.


In a workers' state, where the working people themselves exercise power through their own organs of power, who ultimately decides and determines the laws, policies, and acceptable norms of our society?

To those who consider all forms of nationalism to be reactionary, let me ask, should all the workers pass up opportunities to overthrow the bourgeoisie in their only nations and instead wait to seize power until the proletarians in all nations are ready and mobilized to seize power simultaneously, so that the workers' states aren't delineated by separate self-determined nations? Have you really given this utopian ultra-left extreme contortion of internationalism much thought? How exactly do you think that a international dictatorship of the proletariat and the building of socialist society worldwide is going to emerge into actuality? This isn't about what you wish would happen, but what you think is actually likely and a practically possible process of international proletarian revolution that would cause that to actually happen.

Of course the revolution can be regionally organised, in fact for many reasons it makes good sense to do so. The individual states can even maintain a degree of independence from each other, despite both being ostensibly leftist, USSR and China were never exactly united, they even fought on opposing sides on several occasions. But that is a very different thing to flag waving book burning nationalism.

[MattShizzle]

I've seen people on other forums try to say Nationalism isn't bad. One even said "Nationalism is good as long as it's for the US." And of course when you try to explain why it's bad - "well if you don't like America go move to China or Iran where they'll cut off your head." At that point you know you are arguing with someone too stupid to bother with.