Patriotism and National Chauvinism (split from Upcoming Events)

[Coach Trotsky]

Will this event actually explain why working people should not be "patriotic" and loyal to the BRITISH EMPIRE from a revolutionary socialist class-based perspective, or will it be another bourgeoisie-serving liberal-Left Labourite type event where it is pretended that the key problem is "white people are backwards oppressors"?

Because we all know how concerned the liberal-left and it's minor-league hard left lackeys are about the liberation of the workers and oppressed. They would never play manipulative reactionary divide and conquer games for the political benefit of their particular clique of patrons in the ruling class. They are sooooo just and internationalist that they want the imperialist bourgeoisies to rule, oppress, and exploit the whole world as they've done with the Third World...it's only fair! (sarcasm)

[#FF0000]

wait a minute patriotism = being white in England?


Will this event actually explain why working people should not be "patriotic" and loyal to the BRITISH EMPIRE from a revolutionary socialist class-based perspective, or will it be another bourgeoisie-serving liberal-Left Labourite type event where it is pretended that the key problem is "white people are backwards oppressors"?

what the fuck are you talking about

[JimN]

Will this event actually explain why working people should not be "patriotic" and loyal to the BRITISH EMPIRE from a revolutionary socialist class-based perspective, or will it be another bourgeoisie-serving liberal-Left Labourite type event where it is pretended that the key problem is "white people are backwards oppressors"?

It'll be from a revolutionary socialist class-based perspective. Definitely not a liberal-left labourite event and not bourgeosie-serving.

[El Chuncho]

I am sick of fucking British nationalism - sorry, patriotism! - being displayed in England. English national recognition is rare, mostly arising during the football season, and has at least a view more left-wingers involved (William Morris was an early example, though he verged on Germanic left-wing nationalism) rather than British nationalism which seems to be a celebration of all things imperial and conservative; ironic as a conservative, imperialist government are pissing the taxpayer's money all the way down the toilet.

Is patriotism OK? No, and I am damn sick of seeing it on TV. I do not care is the food is ''British (and Irish)'', I do not care if anything is the favourite snack or drink in Britain and I do not care about Britain. The only way I can care about Britain is if it becomes a socialist state.

[Coach Trotsky]

wait a minute patriotism = being white in England?



what the fuck are you talking about
Oh, please, don't pretend that you don't know what every discussion about opposing nationalism/patriotism is really all about in most Left-wing circles.
I notice that you are a particularly motivated Left-posturing crusader in that regard. Is it because you have "high minded" "enlighted" "progressive" ideals, or it is because you have a particular here-and-now material interest in gaming this system by pitting 'oppressed' working people against so-called 'oppresser' working people (and we all know who those inherently evil bad backward oppressive people are, according to the majority of the today's Left).
Globalism without socialist revolution and liberation of all the workers and oppressed is GLOBAL CAPITALIST TYRANNY! It is treason to our class and treason again all the peoples of the world to support THIS SYSTEM's external and internal neo-colonial globalism. Yet that is precisely what most of the Left has done for decades, since they were able to "get in", be co-opted and integrated and rewarded like mercenaries in establishment Popular Front schemes, and figured out that they could exploit certain oppressed communities for their benefit within the parameters of this system!
After tasting such fruits, the Left is addicted to this system, and it has capitulated for crumbs and a more comfy place at the capitalists' table. And yet we are supposed to be surprised that there is a severe lack of mass class struggle activity that threatens this system under their watch and their leaderships? What better way to continue playing this damn game the Left plays and benefits from in this system, then to make damn sure NOT to actually encourage or permit any system-threatening path of class-struggle by masses of working people (which of course means, in Leftie terms, a whole lot of those pale-faced supposedly inherently oppressive 'wrong people')?

So, how do YOU benefit from the Leftie establishment's gaming of this system? What role do YOU play in it? In today's globalized capitalist context, who's the oppressors and reactionaries, and who really has "nothing to lose but their chains"?

[Coach Trotsky]

I am sick of fucking British nationalism - sorry, patriotism! - being displayed in England. English national recognition is rare, mostly arising during the football season, and has at least a view more left-wingers involved (William Morris was an early example, though he verged on Germanic left-wing nationalism) rather than British nationalism which seems to be a celebration of all things imperial and conservative; ironic as a conservative, imperialist government are pissing the taxpayer's money all the way down the toilet.

Is patriotism OK? No, and I am damn sick of seeing it on TV. I do not care is the food is ''British (and Irish)'', I do not care if anything is the favourite snack or drink in Britain and I do not care about Britain. The only way I can care about Britain is if it becomes a socialist state.
Fake nationalism. Fake internationalism. Bourgeoisie and their lackeys on both the Right and Left win every time.

[Rainsborough]

wait a minute patriotism = being white in England?


Now that's racist. Do you hate white people that much?

[ZeroNowhere]

Wow, this thread is becoming increasingly surreal.

Or maybe people are just not good at understanding the Queen's English because they're unBritish immigrants.

[JimN]

I am sick of fucking British nationalism - sorry, patriotism! - being displayed in England. English national recognition is rare, mostly arising during the football season, and has at least a view more left-wingers involved (William Morris was an early example, though he verged on Germanic left-wing nationalism) rather than British nationalism which seems to be a celebration of all things imperial and conservative; ironic as a conservative, imperialist government are pissing the taxpayer's money all the way down the toilet.

Is patriotism OK? No, and I am damn sick of seeing it on TV. I do not care is the food is ''British (and Irish)'', I do not care if anything is the favourite snack or drink in Britain and I do not care about Britain. The only way I can care about Britain is if it becomes a socialist state.

I'm sick of it too. But I think socialism needs to be a worldwide system of society.

[#FF0000]

I notice that you are a particularly motivated Left-posturing crusader in that regard. Is it because you have "high minded" "enlighted" "progressive" ideals or it is because you have a particular here-and-now material interest in gaming this system by pitting 'oppressed' working people against so-called 'oppresser' working people (and we all know who those inherently evil bad backward oppressive people are, according to the majority of the today's Left).

I don't understand where you're getting this bolded part from. I think that, in America (and doubtless in other countries as well), people who aren't white, according to whatever "whiteness" means, generally have a rougher go of things than white people in similar conditions do. Call it white privilege or whatever you want, but living as a white person around a ton of people of all different ethnicities, I think this is obvious. I've seen it.

So, yeah, I subscribe to the idea that white privilege exists. However, I don't think that racism can be dealt with in any meaningful sense while capitalism still exists.

I do not believe that white working class people are "evil, backwards oppressors" and I never, ever seriouslytried to suggest this.

You had no idea of my views on race whatsoever, but because you disagree with me on the definition of black nationalism you go on and try and attack me like this? You attack me for ideas that aren't mine and then accuse me of trying to "game the system" at the expense of the working class?

Who are you?

And for the record, I thought the rest of your post was great.

[#FF0000]

Now that's racist. Do you hate white people that much?

Are you joking?

I'm just confused by the whole focus on "failed multiculturalism" that people go on about. Maybe "multiculturalism" means something different in Europe (I have a feeling I had a discussion about this before), but I keep hearing about multiculturalism being a failure and to me that sounds like "people of different races should be separate".

[Rainsborough]

I'm just confused by the whole focus on "failed multiculturalism" that people go on about. Maybe "multiculturalism" means something different in Europe (I have a feeling I had a discussion about this before), but I keep hearing about multiculturalism being a failure and to me that sounds like "people of different races should be separate".

'Failed multiculturalism' is simply todays political buzzword, used by politician of all political persuasions to elicite votes. Its simply a response to a growing unhappiness with the white working-class to what they perceive as discrimination against them.

[Coach Trotsky]

I don't understand where you're getting this bolded part from. I think that, in America (and doubtless in other countries as well), people who aren't white, according to whatever "whiteness" means, generally have a rougher go of things than white people in similar conditions do. Call it white privilege or whatever you want, but living as a white person around a ton of people of all different ethnicities, I think this is obvious. I've seen it.
I find it tragic that many socialists can't seem to figure out the difference between class privilege and "white privilege". Also, I find it sad that so many socialists are so demoralized and under-confident in their own revolutionary ideology, to the point where they think we can only at best play games about "more oppressed than thou", and then they seek reforms within this system that INCREASE ethnic antagonisms within the working class, and then take sides in and exploit for their own benefit (and ultimately modern globalized capitalism's sake) this goddamn conflict of proletarians vs proletarians!



So, yeah, I subscribe to the idea that white privilege exists.

Explain how "white privilege" is an institution of this system in the current globalized period of capitalism...and be sure to distinguish it from any sort of class-based advantage! In other words, you need to show that the bourgeoisie today actually NEEDS and DIRECTLY IMPOSES/ENCOURAGES this "institutional white racism/privilege" upon society. Don't try to say, "well back in Jim Crow segregation days", etc. Don't forget who made the actual decisions in the bourgeois halls of power to scrap racial-segregation and legal official institutional systematic "white privilege". Why did the ruling class do that? From the kindness of their hearts? Because they were afraid of revolution? Or was it really mainly something else that compelled the bourgeoisie to shift gears regarding race/ethnicity relations?



However, I don't think that racism can be dealt with in any meaningful sense while capitalism still exists.

Well, I agree with you that ethnic chauvinism will not go away until the overthrow of the system that encourages and manipulates it now ON ALL SIDES within the proletariat.



I do not believe that white working class people are "evil, backwards oppressors" and I never, ever seriouslytried to suggest this.

Certainly neither do I, but there are many many Left-posturing charlatans who do express this political line (implicitly or explicitly)...it is in fact now a key part of the liberal-Left's rhetoric and campaigning strategies.



You had no idea of my views on race whatsoever, but because you disagree with me on the definition of black nationalism you go on and try and attack me like this? You attack me for ideas that aren't mine and then accuse me of trying to "game the system" at the expense of the working class?

I actually just wanted clarity on what you and other revLeft folks define a progressive form of nationalism to be, and whether that progressive form of nationalism is acceptable regardless of the nationality of the working people who embrace it and use it as a means for their liberation.

What I am concerned about is this whole "fine for blacks and other 'more oppressed' peoples, but not for those workers of European descent" outlook that has dominated the Left, and I'm convinced that this has nothing to do with actually attempting to overthrow and replace this system, but instead is a much more sinister and cynical manipulative political game to "get the mostest for themselves" in today's global capitalism by the bourgeois liberals and their fake-Leftie hangers-on.



Who are you?

A revolutionary socialist "precariat" working-class 30something man of Euroamerican nationality (NOT that class-collaborationist pro-imperialist system-serving reactionary "White American" identity---we DO need to be encouraged to break from that bullshit claptrap) who embraces international class solidarity and believes in the need for international socialist workers' revolution, who abhors and opposes all capitalist exploitation and reaction and oppression. I am inspired by Marx, Engels, Lenin, Trotsky, and many other revolutionary socialists, and I try my best to strive for the sort of society that they also fought for. But I'm convinced that requires an acknowledgement and break with the latter-day non-revolutionary Left's sellout politics and practices that have hindered and harmed everything "progressive" they ostensibly stand for, and then a regeneration and regroupment of 21st century revolutionary socialist forces, such that we can actually lead to the accomplish of the task of the proletarian revolution and building socialist society. Right now, I want to find actively-inclined proletarian-focused revolutionary socialists who are independent-thinking enough and take our cause seriously enough to dare to see through and tip over the fake-Left's sacred cows, and who-- like the outspoken truth-telling little boy in "The Emperor's New Clothes" --recognize that the new globalized capitalist game has some serious new implications for our struggle (ie. the 60s-era leftism is utterly unable to address this in a revolutionary manner, and tends to lead its modern followers to actually end up serving the enemy, apologizing for and taking part in the exploitation and oppression process).



And for the record, I thought the rest of your post was great.
Thank you. Somebody's got to say it. Hope I ain't gonna be the only one.

[#FF0000]

Certainly neither do I, but there are many many Left-posturing charlatans who do express this political line (implicitly or explicitly)...it is in fact now a key part of the liberal-Left's rhetoric and campaigning strategies.

Who and with what evidence?


Explain how "white privilege" is an institution of this system in the current globalized period of capitalism...and be sure to distinguish it from any sort of class-based advantage! In other words, you need to show that the bourgeoisie today actually NEEDS and DIRECTLY IMPOSES/ENCOURAGES this "institutional white racism/privilege" upon society

Uh. Prisons.

[#FF0000]

I find it tragic that many socialists can't seem to figure out the difference between class privilege and "white privilege". Also, I find it sad that so many socialists are so demoralized and under-confident in their own revolutionary ideology, to the point where they think we can only at best play games about "more oppressed than thou", and then they seek reforms within this system that INCREASE ethnic antagonisms within the working class, and then take sides in and exploit for their own benefit (and ultimately modern globalized capitalism's sake) this goddamn conflict of proletarians vs proletarians!

Uh, I don't think there's anything wrong with saying that black workers in America or gay workers or female workers have a rougher go of it than a white, straight, male worker. That doesn't mean the latter isn't oppressed because of his class. They're just saying that racism, sexism, homophobia affect people and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Pointing this out doesn't turn things into proletarian vs. proletarian.


Explain how "white privilege" is an institution of this system in the current globalized period of capitalism...and be sure to distinguish it from any sort of class-based advantage! In other words, you need to show that the bourgeoisie today actually NEEDS and DIRECTLY IMPOSES/ENCOURAGES this "institutional white racism/privilege" upon society.

I already mentioned prisons which benefit greatly from huge populations which are usually made up of non-white inmates from the poorest areas around the prison.


Don't try to say, "well back in Jim Crow segregation days", etc.

I don't have to. Schools and residentials are more segregated now than they were then.


Don't forget who made the actual decisions in the bourgeois halls of power to scrap racial-segregation and legal official institutional systematic "white privilege". Why did the ruling class do that? From the kindness of their hearts? Because they were afraid of revolution? Or was it really mainly something else that compelled the bourgeoisie to shift gears regarding race/ethnicity relations?

Overt, de-facto racism is bad for business.

Well, I agree with you that ethnic chauvinism will not go away until the overthrow of the system that encourages and manipulates it now ON ALL SIDES within the proletariat.



Certainly neither do I, but there are many many Left-posturing charlatans who do express this political line (implicitly or explicitly)...it is in fact now a key part of the liberal-Left's rhetoric and campaigning strategies.

How about you argue with these "left-posturing charlatans" when they show themselves and actually deal with the points the people you are talking to bring up instead of raving like a lunatic.


What I am concerned about is this whole "fine for blacks and other 'more oppressed' peoples, but not for those workers of European descent" outlook that has dominated the Left,

What are you even talking about? Can you give me a concrete example of this outlook that's apparently dominated the left?

[#FF0000]

Can someone split this?