homosexuality

[Socialmalfunction]

so i was debating with some friends on this subject during my government class and basically what went down is this..
they said homosexuality is a sin according to the bible (the old testament by the way). i kinda killed my argument by saying the old testament didnt count. but then i came up with real arguments for why being simply being a homosexual is not a sin.
1) the bible said for a man to lay with another man is a sin. this is very important because that would pertain to sex outside of marriage. sex outside of marriage, according to christians, is always a sin. and being as gay/lesbian marriages will never be accepted by catholics and most christians sex for them will always be outside of marriage.
2)lust is lust. whether its a man thinking of a man or woman, or a woman thinking of a woman or man, lust is always a sin (according to christianity). and so, since lust is lust it being directed toward someone of the same sex doesnt make it doubly worse.
THEREFORE, if someone is homosexual and doesnt act on their urges it is NOT a sin for them to be homosexual. also, it IS encouraged for people that are homosexual to become a priest. seeing as how priests are supposed to be celibat in the catholic church their sexual preference will never be known and therefore does not matter. (this is a catholic thing though)
so anyway, those were my points for why merely being homosexual is not a sin. i stick to that. and anyway, saying that it is a sin would be damning them to hell automatically without even knowing them and i cant do that. but then i also cant say that ghandi is going to hell because he didnt except "jesus christ as his lord and savior." i think that is bull poopy!

[Pete]

Point 1: Did you ask them for the passage? Because if they are talking about the destruction of Sodom it must be noted that a) Abraham tried to save the city and b) there is no mention that the reason for destroying the city was because of homosexuality, but because the people did not believe in God.

Point 2: Lust is lust is a sin? You can easily use the Old Testament to debunk that. God did not kill Lot's children for getting them drunk so they can have sex with him!

[Socialmalfunction]

yeah but i think its somewhere in the new testament where it says if you have impure thoughts in your head about someone (like having sex with them) its just as bad as the act of. and it goes with the whole coveting of someone (ten commandments) and christians can't debunk that. kuz lusting after someone is wanting them leading to coveting. that's basically how it goes. and no i didnt ask them the scripture because that would have meant have to debate it longer and it was them two against me... that led to a big headache.

[Pete]

As it would. Headaches, that is.

I suggest reading the bible. In Genisis their are countless instances of rape that go unpunished, and sometimes even supported by god.

[Totalitarian]

I don't think there's anything "sinful" about homosexuality, it is simply unproductive and contributes absolutely nothing to the survival of the species. Furthermore it spreads lots of disease, far more so than heterosexual sex.

[truthaddict11]

i would add that king david did have sex with jonathan.

[redstar2000]

so i was debating with some friends on this subject during my government class and basically what went down is this..

I keep trying to picture this: a class in government talking about homosexuality and sin.

What does "sin" have to do with "government"?

Anyway, I suggest you tell them bluntly that their "Bible" is a load of rubbish and that nothing it says has any contemporary relevance.

There are plenty of websites to back that up, if required.

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

[Mazzen]

Crazy Pete, your point two is invalid. Lot's children did get him drunk to lay w/ him, but it was supposedly in the name of re-creation of human beings, not in the name of lust.

[Pete]

Yes I know that. But their is an example... fuck... can't tell you it now.

Let me just say, Redstar is right.

[Totalitarian]

Originally posted by truthad[email protected] 10 2003, 10:48 AM
i would add that king david did have sex with jonathan.
I never heard that one. Do you know which verse its in?

The Bible is actually full of smutty sex. Abraham married his sister Sarah, and went around the middle east pimping her off to various kings and princes.

There's a chapter in which one of the characters called Judah, mistakes his daughter-in-law for a whore on the side of the road and gets her pregnant.

The story of Sodom is about an entire city filled with homosexuals. When some people visit Lot who lives there, a crowd of them demand to be allowed to anally rape the newcomers. Lot offers them his virgin daughters instead (!). When Sodom is destroyed, Lot and his two daughters hide out in a cave. They both decide to get him drunk enough to have incestuous sex, apparently because they believe that he is the last man alive on earth.

I'm sure there are many more similar examples. I know that in the Qu'ran it is said that Muhammed married a nine year old.

[Totalitarian]

Suffice to say, if you made the Bible into a movie it would be X-rated.

[truthaddict11]

I never heard that one. Do you know which verse its in

dont know the exact verse but i think its in David

and there is a book called X Rated Bible filled with all the sex in the book

[Dhul Fiqar]

LOL - the Quran does NOT say that Muhammed married ANYONE. Get your facts straight on that particular book - but good work on the Biblical part ;)

--- G.

[Dhul Fiqar]

1 Samuel 18:1-4

[1] And it came to pass, when he had made an end of speaking unto Saul, that the soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul.
[2] And Saul took him that day, and would let him go no more home to his father's house.
[3] Then Jonathan and David made a covenant, because he loved him as his own soul.
[4] And Jonathan stripped himself of the robe that was upon him, and gave it to David, and his garments, even to his sword, and to his bow, and to his girdle.


Ruth and Naomi also had sex - so did Daniel and Ashpenaz. These are the three classic samples of gay sex in the Bible.

--- G.

[Dhul Fiqar]

1 Samuel 20:41
"After the boy had gone, David got up from the south side of the stone and bowed down before Jonathan three times, with is face to the ground. Then they kissed each other and wept together - but David wept the most." (NIV

[Totalitarian]

Originally posted by Dhul [email protected] 11 2003, 12:12 AM
1 Samuel 18:1-4

[1] And it came to pass, when he had made an end of speaking unto Saul, that the soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul.
[2] And Saul took him that day, and would let him go no more home to his father's house.
[3] Then Jonathan and David made a covenant, because he loved him as his own soul.
[4] And Jonathan stripped himself of the robe that was upon him, and gave it to David, and his garments, even to his sword, and to his bow, and to his girdle.



Um...this just implies that they were close friends, and that Johnathan gave David his clothes. There is no mention of sex.

[Dhul Fiqar]

If you read Biblican analysis - you will see that no one in that culture ever undressed in front of a member of the same sex unless it was for purposes of sexual intercourse or in a communal bath. Also, they kissed ;)

--- G.

[Totalitarian]

Originally posted by Dhul [email protected] 11 2003, 12:10 AM
LOL - the Quran does NOT say that Muhammed married ANYONE. Get your facts straight on that particular book - but good work on the Biblical part ;)

--- G.
I think you're right. It's not in the Qu'ran, but in some other book. Here's a Muslim site which seems to accept that Muhammad married Aisha, when she was nine years old.

http://answering-christianity.com/aisha.htm

[Dhul Fiqar]

It's a Hadith - there are literally tens of thousands of hadiths saying anything you want them to :)

However, Muhammad took over responsibility for caring for several women that were widows and daughters of fallen comrades after battles - he explicitly married them to provide for their children. There is no mention of marital duties - and I sincerely doubt he would have raped a 9 year old daughter of a fallen comrade.

--- G.

[Lardlad95]

RELIGIOUS BELIEFS ARE IRRELEVANT IN POLITCAL DEBATE, END OF DISCUSSION

[Socialmalfunction]

hahaha, i agree with all of you. as for redstars question... i sit in the very back of my government class where i am surrounded by hardcore (insane) christians, who are friends of mine when we arent talking about religion, and an atheist. our teacher basically lets us talk whenever we want, even though its an AP course, so we talk about ALL KINDS of irrelevant stuff. but i kinda like getting them riled up about this stuff. so anyway, yeah... sorry for starting this in here but it really gets to me that people can damn others based on their sexual preference. but anyway, now i have lots of ammo to come back at them with if this topic ever gets brought up again.. haha! thanks guys!!!! but why is it that when i'm not here my topic picks up? hmm i dunno :blink: