Loyalists attack Short Strand Belfast!

[Irish Left]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-13851316

Homes in east Belfast's Short Strand area have been attacked by a large group of masked men, Sinn Fein has said.

Crowds were still at an interface on the lower Newtownards Road and Bryson Street in the early hours of Tuesday.

Lord Mayor of Belfast Niall O Donnghaile, a Sinn Fein councillor for the area, was at the scene.

He told the BBC that 60-100 masked men fully dressed in camouflage gear have been attacking homes.

The attacks were carried out at the Mountpottinger Road as well as the lower Newtownards Road, Mr O Donnghaile said.

Police are at the scene and community and youth workers have been trying to defuse the situation.

'Residents injured'
"It's a tense and dangerous situation," Mr O Donnghaile said.

"They've hit homes with paint bombs, pipe bombs and petrol bombs.

"A pipe bomb-type device has gone off. There's a number of Short Strand residents who are injured and a number of homes have been damaged."

Police have confirmed that a large number of people had gathered in Bryson Street and that petrol bombs have been thrown.

Ulster Unionist MLA Michael Copeland said several hundred people "were involved in hand-to-hand fighting".

"You have two sides to these stories. My understanding is that homes on the Newtownards Road have been attacked from Strand Walk and the grounds of St Matthew's in the last couple of nights," he said.

"It really doesn't really matter who is responsible at this stage. It's getting it stopped that is the problem."

[Irish Left]

http://www.u.tv/News/Sectarian-clashes-in-east-Belfast/93477fab-1c46-4f3b-81b8-085d7180ca28

A number of people have reportedly been taken to hospital after masked men got involved in sectarian clashes in east Belfast.
Petrol bombs, bricks, bottles and other missiles were thrown close to the Short Stand interface on Monday night, after groups of men described as wearing balaclavas and camouflage gathered in the lower Newtownards Road area.

UTV understands a number of homes on both sides have been attacked, and that a PSNI landrover was set on fire.

There are unconfirmed reports that up to five shots have been fired from the direction of St Matthew's Church, and that one man was being treated at a nearby ambulance station for bullet wounds to his ankle in the early hours of Tuesday morning.

Sinn Féin councillor for the area Niall Ó'Donnghaile, who was the scene, says the violence was deliberately organised by loyalists.

"We've had upwards of 60 to 100 masked men in army fatigues and balaclavas coming down the Castlereagh Road and attacking homes in the Short Strand," he told UTV.

"They subsequently moved round to the bottom of the lower Newtownards Road, all heavily armed with bottles, bricks, fireworks and petrol bombs."

But UUP MLA for the area Michael Copeland said earlier clashes were caused by republicans.

"My understanding is that there have been ongoing attacks at this interface in both directions but yesterday evening houses in the Newtownards Road were attacked from the Short Strand," he said.

"Stones were thrown from the roofs of houses and this evening was a repeat of it. It's a very shocking sign that things are not all well."

"With the onset of summer there must a joined up approach between the PSNI and community workers in the area to stem the violence on this interface."

Alliance East Belfast MP Naomi Long says violence needs to end "before a life is lost".

"It is not fair that people living in the area are subjected to this kind of turmoil, when the vast majority just want to live their lives in peace," Ms Long said.

"Those engaging in this rioting have no respect for the local community and nothing to offer but misery. There can never be any justification for this kind of violence."

Shortly before 10pm, police confirmed they were dealing with reports of disorder in the Bryson Street area of east Belfast, after large number of people gathered. They said a number of petrol bombs had been thrown but did not report any injuries.

They said they had received earlier reports of disorder in the Castlereagh area, but the situation was brought under control.

Police have urged members of the public to avoid the area.

This is the second night of trouble in the interface area of east Belfast. Police were also called in to deal with trouble involving groups of youths in the early hours of Monday.

[Irish Left]

Up to 100 masked men where spoted drilling before attacking nationalist homes in the short strand. These scum where the UVF. All this was started by the UVF.
Shots where also fired at nationalists defending the Short Strand estate from St Mattews church.
Also unconfirmed reports or return fire injuring a loyalist.

The loyalist mobs petrol bombs set pensioners roofs on fire but residents put them out.

Some pictures:
http://twitpic.com/photos/Short_Strand

[Mindtoaster]

All because these fascist fucks couldn't have their little supremacist parade.

Fuck loyalism

[Mindtoaster]

These aren't kids rioting either

Looks like UVF involvement. Theres unconfirmed reports of gunfire from both sides

[Irish Left]

Its calmed down now.
The short strand locals defended their community well. Republicans from across belfast came to their aid.
But you can be sure this won't be a on off.
The lack of media coverage is a disgrace. If it was ardoyne it would be all over the news.

[Irish Left]

These aren't kids rioting either

Looks like UVF involvement. Theres unconfirmed reports of gunfire from both sides

Yeah people on the scene said the cops moved out of the way before the loyalists fired at those at st matts.

[Irish Left]

Youths out of school?

http://s3.amazonaws.com/twitpic/photos/large/326601375.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAJF3XCCKACR3QDMOA&Expires=1308672675&Signature=USvlAu%2FOJGZNER5UBcra%2BrAZKBE%3D

Doesn't look like that to me.

[Irish Left]

A radio show about the trouble: Even the RUC are blaming UVF!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b011y775

[Marxach-Léinínach]

In b4 some SP/CWI type comes on here moralising how both sides are as bad as each other and only cross-community action will bring socialism

[Niall]

A senior police officer has described shots aimed at officers during rioting in east Belfast on Monday night as "attempted murder".
Violence erupted at a sectarian interface on the lower Newtownards Road and Mountpottinger Road around 2100 BST.
Chief Superintendent Alan McCrum said the trouble was "orchestrated" by the loyalist paramilitary group, the UVF.
Two men are being treated in hospital for gun shot wounds.
In all 11 shots were fired - six from the nationalist side and five from loyalists.
Two shots hit a police landrover. Police said it was "clearly an attempt to murder police officers".
Petrol bombs, fireworks, bricks, stones and smoke bombs were thrown and homes were damaged during the disturbances.
The PSNI said between 400 to 500 people were involved in the disorder.
Sectarian interface
Chief Supt McCrum said the trouble started after a group of young men came out of the loyalist Mount and Castlereagh Street areas, and made their way into the Catholic enclave of Short Strand.
"That precipitated a response from the community in the Short Strand, and then we were left with two communities, who for the next four hours were seeking to involve themselves in conflict across what was, and continues to be a very challenging interface in the city."
Continue reading the main story (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-13854027#story_continues_2) Analysis

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/48743000/jpg/_48743317_006528083-1.jpg Mark Simpson BBC Ireland Correspondent
The riot in east Belfast was another reminder that Northern Ireland has a peace process but it does not have peace.
The number of walls between Protestant and Catholic areas has risen in recent years rather than fallen.
Outbreaks of violence are relatively rare these days, but tension in some areas continues to simmer.
One night of rioting normally leads to another in Northern Ireland. The challenge facing the police is to stop an isolated problem escalating.

Chief Supt McCrum said police believed that members of the east Belfast UVF were involved in the trouble.
"It would be a line of investigation to establish whether that was a co-ordinated and organised 'organisational' position (by the UVF leadership)," he said.
"But at this point we are satisfied that at the very least members of east Belfast UVF were involved in organising the disorder."
The senior officer said police officers were initially "far outnumbered" by hundreds of people who were "hell bent" on disorder.
"We had additional resources in the Short Strand on Monday night, but no-one could have anticipated the scale of the disorder that took place," Chief Supt McCrum said.
"No-one could have anticipated that hundreds of people would be on the street and that petrol bombs, blast bombs, sticks and bottles would be thrown over four to five hours."
Gunfire
The PSNI said there was nothing to suggest that members of the Provisional IRA (PIRA) had fired shots and it was too early to say if dissident republicans were involved as their investigations were continuing.
Presbyterian Minister, Reverend Mervyn Gibson heard two bursts of gunfire after midnight.
"Two young men on the Protestant side were injured, both shot in the legs," he said.
"I was with them both and helped others to arrange to get them to hospital.
"It really was a serious scene. I haven't seen trouble like this for maybe 10 years in the area."
Sinn Fein MLA Alex Maskey was also on the ground during the disturbances.
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/53543000/jpg/_53543861_riot.jpg Missiles were thrown at police trying to restore calm to the area
"The PSNI told me that they had injured people with plastic bullets on the loyalist side, people who were clearly the aggressors. I have no idea who else was injured," he said.
Mr Maskey claimed members of the loyalist paramilitary group, the Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF) took part in the attack on the Short Strand.
UVF attack
"I am very clear in what I am saying," he said.
"I am making a very serious statement and as far as people in the Short Strand are concerned, the UVF launched an attack on the Catholic community in this area. I think it's absolutely disgraceful."
Laser pens were used to try and 'blind' police. One officer was treated for an eye injury in hospital.
Police said they are also investigating a report of an attempted hijacking of a bus.

[Bronco]

What's the motivation behind it? Is it just rioting for the sake of rioting?

[Red Future]

What's the motivation behind it? Is it just rioting for the sake of rioting?

There is always a reason for Rioting in Northern Ireland

[Irish Left]

What's the motivation behind it? Is it just rioting for the sake of rioting?

Nobodys really sure yet or anything particular. Theres been stones thrown from very small numbers of hoods on both sides in the last few weeks.
But las night Large numbers of masked men in combat uniforms where seen drilling before attacking the short strand.
Then hundreds of loyalist youths came out and attacked.
The men and youth of the short stand cam out to defend their homes and where soon joined by comrades from accross Belfast.


Loyslists have been seen gathering in large numbers today but theres heavy rain so hopefully they go home and leave the short strand alone.

[Mindtoaster]

Looks like pretty much all the rumors were true. This was an organized attack by loyalist paramilitaries on catholic civilians


Two people received gunshot wounds to the leg when a total of 11 shots were fired during the violence in the lower Newtownards Road area, which erupted at around 9pm on Monday and lasted for more than four hours.

A number of petrol bombs were also thrown during the disturbance close to the Short Stand interface, which involved around 500 loyalist and nationalist rioters, including men wearing balaclavas and camouflage.

Bricks, bottles, fireworks and smoke bombs were also thrown and homes damaged in what police called a "high-level, life-threatening, organised, serious and sustained" attack by people "hell-bent on disorder".

Police said members of the Ulster Volunteer Force were initially behind the violence, but the gun shots were fired from both sides of the community.

Chief Superintendent Alan McCrum said: "We believe at this point that members of the east Belfast UVF were involved.

"It would be a line of investigation to establish whether that was a co-ordinated and organised 'organisational' position (by the UVF central leadership).

http://www.u.tv/News/UVF-organised-east-Belfast-riot/c76968fa-6384-410a-b853-9e9354e6f575

[Marxach-Léinínach]

this seems like a mini-1969

[Irish Left]

Its kicked off again! Loyalists are trying to attack the Short Stand again!
Anyone in Belfast go and show your support the people!

[thälmann]

how did it end?

[Irish Left]

how did it end?

Rioting until the early hours. Shots fired with a photographer being hit in the leg.

[Jolly Red Giant]

The Socialist Party took to the streets of Belfast today campaigning against the recent escalation in sectarian attacks in East Belfast. Below we publish the text of the leaflet which was handed to thousands of people. The stall was flooded with supporters who have been disgusted by recent events. A longer article analysing the attacks in East Belfast will follow shortly.

United action needed to stop all sectarian attacks

The intense sectarian rioting and shootings in East Belfast affecting both Catholic and Protestant communities must be resolutely opposed. Facing into a summer which threatens to bring further sectarian clashes, it is vital that working class people take a united stand and not allow the minority of sectarian bigots in both communities to get away with more attacks and shootings, creating misery for working class people.


Throughout the ‘Troubles’, on many occassions, working people took to the streets in their thousands against sectarian killings and succeeded in pushing back those forces intent on enflaming sectarian division. Throughout the recent clashes in East Belfast, the PSNI has failed to prevent attacks on both communities. The sectarian politicians have intervened only to inject their own one-sided sectarian interests.


These clashes have only served to deflect attention away from the massive cuts to jobs and services which all the parties in the Assembly Executive are beginning to carry out. It is workers, the unemployed and the poorest and most vulnerable which are suffering from sectarian attacks and the cuts of all the sectarian parties in Stormont. If sectarian forces were to succeed in significantly spreading and deepening clashes across the North, this would only serve to weaken the ability of ordinary people to fight the Assembly’s cuts as well as cause furthering suffering for ordinary families and communities.


The trade union movement and genuine community groups must respond to the threat of an escalation of sectarianism over the coming months by organising mass protests and if necessary strike action to bring Catholic and Protestant communities together in opposition to sectarianism.


Mass movement against cuts can tackle sectarian division


On June 30th more than a million workers across Britain will take strike action against the Tory/Lib Dem attacks on pensions. The trade union leaders here in particular have a heavy responsibility to organise workers and communities in Northern Ireland to fight the cuts of the sectarian parties in the Assembly.


By building a mass movement of ordinary people to defend hospital services, schools, jobs and much needed services, sectarian division can be confronted and the common interests of ordinary people, Catholic and Protestant, can come to the fore. Movements like this lay the basis for eradicating the poison of sectarianism.


The Socialist Party helped form the Stop the Cuts Campaign which is uniting communities and workers to fight the cuts and argue that those who are responsible for the economic crisis - the wealthy specualtors and bankers - should be made pay, not services and jobs.


Socialist Party - For workers’ unity


The Socialist Party unites ordinary people against the attacks on jobs, conditions and services of the sectarian parties and big business. We are opposed to the capitalist market system which has failed workers, the unemployed and young people and stand for a socialist alternative where the major resources of society are publically owned and democratically run and managed by ordinary people.

http://www.socialistpartyni.net/component/content/article/120-news-front/633-united-action-needed-to-stop-all-sectarian-attacks

[Mindtoaster]

Pretty shit of the Socialist Party to try to dump blame on both sides tbh. This was an unprovoked attack by loyalist paramilitaries, even the British media acknowledges this for the most part.

Better statement from the SWP:


The Socialist Workers Party in Belfast condemns the recent and ongoing attacks on the Short Strand in the east of the city orchestrated by the UVF. The return to the streets of organized loyalist gangs in paramilitary regalia is an especially sinister development, and one that risks opening the gates to renewed large-scale sectarian violence. We support the right of the people of the Short Strand to defend themselves, but believe that both Protestant and Catholic workers have a stake in seeing off the scourge of loyalist paramilitarism. We therefore call upon the trade union movement to mobilise its membership in support of the right of all workers to live free from the threat of sectarian harassment.

While our political and economic elite travels the world boasting of its accomplishment in forging a “new Northern Ireland,” working class people have seen little real improvement in their day-to-day lives. Much of the so-called ‘peace dividend’, which should have gone into rebuilding those communities hardest hit by conflict, has instead been squandered on new wars in Iraq and Afghanistan or ploughed into upscale shopping malls, ‘expo centers’ and five-star hotels. Public money has been handed over to private companies given free rein to dictate terms and conditions to an already low-paid workforce. Higher education is being remade a preserve of children of the rich and our secondary schools struggle to find decent facilities. Public libraries, leisure centres, and vital services to young people are being closed. Our hospitals and public services are being run into the ground and the public sector workforce faces the axe, yet every party in the Assembly—including Sinn Fein—has signed up to slashing corporate tax and shifting the burden onto working class households. Water charges, bin charges and more are all on the table.

Nearly fifteen years after the signing of the Belfast Agreement sectarian divisions remain rife. Despite the claims of politicians on all sides, the Assembly has never lifted a finger to challenge sectarianism. Stormont spends hundreds of thousands of pounds projecting a shiny new image overseas, but in reality the NI Assembly is part of the problem. In a system set up along on communal lines, every clash over the carving up of scarce resources lends itself to sectarian rows. Far from reducing sectarianism, the set-up of the state enshrines it.

To make matters worse, over the coming months workers from both main ‘communities’ here will face unprecedented attacks from the state: jobs are set to be slashed and services decimated. In this context only those at the top of society stand to benefit from the poison of sectarianism. The potential is there for tensions to get worse, and workers from every community must oppose, together, the attempts by unionist politicians and loyalist paramilitaries to stir sectarianism during the marching season. In the wake of the attacks on Short Strand, militarists in the nationalist community (“dissidents” in the language of the establishment) will attempt to channel the justifiable outrage felt by many—at the attacks themselves, at the feeble response of the PSNI, and at the hypocrisy and double standards of the BBC and the mainstream media—into support for their dead-end strategy of re-launching an ‘armed campaign’. We reject this as delusional, dangerous and counterproductive.

The Socialist Workers Party aims to unite workers from across every religious and ethnic community in the north of Ireland to resist the cuts and to fight for a new society free from sectarianism. We believe Protestant workers have as much a stake in that fight as anyone, and call upon the trade union movement urgently to mobilize against sectarianism and against the wider attacks on working people. The events of last night, and the rioting in Ardoyne several days earlier, reveal the lethal potential of a return to large-scale sectarian violence. But there is potential also for a united fightback. This autumn will likely see a massive strike by workers across the north, one with the potential to stop the Tories (whatever flag they hide under) in their tracks. It is in the heat of common struggle that the chains of sectarianism can be broken.


http://www.swp.ie/editorial/swp-statement-rioting-east-belfast/4583

This really hits the nail on the head at every point

[Jolly Red Giant]

Pretty shit of the Socialist Party to try to dump blame on both sides tbh. This was an unprovoked attack by loyalist paramilitaries, even the British media acknowledges this for the most part.

There you go jumping to conclusions again.

The item I posted was the text of a leaflet that was distributed after the first night of rioting in the Short Strand area. It was designed to outline the potential consequences of not confronting sectarianism and what measures should be taken in order to prevent the situation continuing and escalating out of control.

You will also note that the piece stated that a longer analysis of the rioting will follow shortly (and I will post it when it has been uploaded).

As regards who was responsible I will provide this statement from Joe Higgins TD when speaking in the Dail yesterday on the renewal of the Offences Against the State Act (which the Socialist Party opposed when initially introduced and continues to oppose today)

Joe Higgins
(Dublin West, Socialist Party)
(http://www.kildarestreet.com/debate/?id=2011-06-21.452.0)
The rioting, for example, in the Short Strand last night, shows the continuing dangers of sectarianism. Last night it was orchestrated by the UVF, most likely in response to an internal power struggle. Sectarianism continues under the surface, and not too far under it, to be a danger. The power-sharing Executive is implementing cuts, the Government in this State is pathetically unable to resolve our economic difficulties, and the establishment in the North and in Britain have no solution to the problems that are underlying these issues in Northern Ireland. Putting more oppressive legislation in the books is not a solution. Only a radical transformation of the economic base of society, a socialist policy approach and an alternative that can provide jobs, homes and a decent future for working class people and youth form the basis of a solution.
Finally - if the statement was 'pretty shit' why were thousands of leaflets snapped up by people from both sides of the community and hundreds queued to sign the petition on the stall and discuss what needed to be done to stop an escalation of the violence?





Better statement from the SWP:

This really hits the nail on the head at every point
If you read the SWP statement it pretty much says the same as the Socialist Party leaflet except it doesn't call for a socialist alternative to capitalism. The SWP limit their call to 'a new society free from sectarianism'.

[Triple A]

All the information i got came from sky news and I would like ppl to expalin some things from me:
-Belfast youths are being attracted to loyalists or republicans.
-How strong is IRA, how strong is UVF.
-What is Sein Fein doing?



Irish members please explain this.
Thanks in advance.

[Cleansing Conspiratorial Revolutionary Flame]

All the information i got came from sky news and I would like ppl to expalin some things from me:
-Belfast youths are being attracted to loyalists or republicans.
-How strong is IRA, how strong is UVF.
-What is Sein Fein doing?



Irish members please explain this.
Thanks in advance.

'-What is Sein Fein doing?'
What has Sinn Fein been doing for quite some time? Acting in a fashion that completely disregards the right of Irish Working Class Communities their Self-Defense and ability to arise from Britain.

The Question is 'What is the response of the IRSP' in this situation? Certainly Trotskyites and Left-Communists have been responding with their typical 'Divided Working Class' comments however, Irish Working Class Communities within Northern Ireland have the simple right and duty to rise against British Imperialism that seeks to maintain a colony in the interests of the British Bourgeois. They as well have the simple right of Self-Defense against Fascism and Imperialism.

[scarletghoul]

The Socialist Party took to the streets of Belfast today campaigning against the recent escalation in sectarian attacks in East Belfast. Below we publish the text of the leaflet which was handed to thousands of people. The stall was flooded with supporters who have been disgusted by recent events. A longer article analysing the attacks in East Belfast will follow shortly.

United action needed to stop all sectarian attacks

The intense sectarian rioting and shootings in East Belfast affecting both Catholic and Protestant communities must be resolutely opposed. Facing into a summer which threatens to bring further sectarian clashes, it is vital that working class people take a united stand and not allow the minority of sectarian bigots in both communities to get away with more attacks and shootings, creating misery for working class people.


Throughout the ‘Troubles’, on many occassions, working people took to the streets in their thousands against sectarian killings and succeeded in pushing back those forces intent on enflaming sectarian division. Throughout the recent clashes in East Belfast, the PSNI has failed to prevent attacks on both communities. The sectarian politicians have intervened only to inject their own one-sided sectarian interests.


These clashes have only served to deflect attention away from the massive cuts to jobs and services which all the parties in the Assembly Executive are beginning to carry out. It is workers, the unemployed and the poorest and most vulnerable which are suffering from sectarian attacks and the cuts of all the sectarian parties in Stormont. If sectarian forces were to succeed in significantly spreading and deepening clashes across the North, this would only serve to weaken the ability of ordinary people to fight the Assembly’s cuts as well as cause furthering suffering for ordinary families and communities.


The trade union movement and genuine community groups must respond to the threat of an escalation of sectarianism over the coming months by organising mass protests and if necessary strike action to bring Catholic and Protestant communities together in opposition to sectarianism.


Mass movement against cuts can tackle sectarian division


On June 30th more than a million workers across Britain will take strike action against the Tory/Lib Dem attacks on pensions. The trade union leaders here in particular have a heavy responsibility to organise workers and communities in Northern Ireland to fight the cuts of the sectarian parties in the Assembly.


By building a mass movement of ordinary people to defend hospital services, schools, jobs and much needed services, sectarian division can be confronted and the common interests of ordinary people, Catholic and Protestant, can come to the fore. Movements like this lay the basis for eradicating the poison of sectarianism.


The Socialist Party helped form the Stop the Cuts Campaign which is uniting communities and workers to fight the cuts and argue that those who are responsible for the economic crisis - the wealthy specualtors and bankers - should be made pay, not services and jobs.


Socialist Party - For workers’ unity


The Socialist Party unites ordinary people against the attacks on jobs, conditions and services of the sectarian parties and big business. We are opposed to the capitalist market system which has failed workers, the unemployed and young people and stand for a socialist alternative where the major resources of society are publically owned and democratically run and managed by ordinary people.

http://www.socialistpartyni.net/component/content/article/120-news-front/633-united-action-needed-to-stop-all-sectarian-attacks
WTF. A load of fascists attack a catholic community, the republicans come to defend it, and you lot just go on vaguely about 'sectarianism' and make out that both sides are just as bad as each other .. ridiculous ..

[Irish Left]

'-What is Sein Fein doing?'
What has Sinn Fein been doing for quite some time? Acting in a fashion that completely disregards the right of Irish Working Class Communities their Self-Defense and ability to arise from Britain.

The Question is 'What is the response of the IRSP' in this situation? Certainly Trotskyites and Left-Communists have been responding with their typical 'Divided Working Class' comments however, Irish Working Class Communities within Northern Ireland have the simple right and duty to rise against British Imperialism that seeks to maintain a colony in the interests of the British Bourgeois. They as well have the simple right of Self-Defense against Fascism and Imperialism.

As far as I know the IRSP has stood on the front line with residents though out the attacks.

[Irish Left]

WTF. A load of fascists attack a catholic community, the republicans come to defend it, and you lot just go on vaguely about 'sectarianism' and make out that both sides are just as bad as each other .. ridiculous ..

Its typical SP sh1te tbh. Wouldn't expect anything else from them.

[Cork Socialist]

Its typical SP sh1te tbh. Wouldn't expect anything else from them.
Read the article, I don't see why everyone thinks actually attempting to Unite the working class is "sh1te".
Nationalism is largely reactionary, Class struggle should be important. Not what flag is on Stormont.
The end of sectarian violence is key in the North but it wont come through the IRSP being on the "frontline", But through the left attempting to unite both communities.
Why do republicans fail to accept that there are for lack of a better word Dicks on both sides. Both sides are now engaged in what effectively is simply reactionary violence against each other. I don't care about 30 years ago.

The armed struggle has lost the support of the majority of the working class and has failed to come any closer to uniting working people across the Island.
There is no National road to Socialism, Republicans who only seem to care a bout the "national question" cannot claim to be a party representing the Working Class.
I would like to point out a post said by Old Mole in another tread which i think fits

"Even when nationalism is used by quasi-lefties its reactionary. By saying that we need "national liberation" or "capitalists are destroying our country" you are in fact proposing the ludicrous idea that everyone in country X shares the country and have something in common, thereby hiding class struggle behind the veil of national unity. The working class has no nation, and it has already created all too many nations for the local bourgeoisies all over the world in the name of national liberation."

Irish Left you seem to have a serious problem with the SP, just because there not "fighting on the front lines" .

All the sectarian violence takes away from what is really happening to working class in the north, which is savage cuts to there standard of living and services etc, The armed struggle is simply dividing the working class from fighting back against the Cuts which is what should be the focus.

[Irish Left]

Read the article, I don't see why everyone thinks actually attempting to Unite the working class is "sh1te".
Nationalism is largely reactionary, Class struggle should be important. Not what flag is on Stormont.
The end of sectarian violence is key in the North but it wont come through the IRSP being on the "frontline", But through the left attempting to unite both communities.
Why do republicans fail to accept that there are for lack of a better word Dicks on both sides. Both sides are now engaged in what effectively is simply reactionary violence against each other. I don't care about 30 years ago.

The armed struggle has lost the support of the majority of the working class and has failed to come any closer to uniting working people across the Island.
There is no National road to Socialism, Republicans who only seem to care a bout the "national question" cannot claim to be a party representing the Working Class.
I would like to point out a post said by Old Mole in another tread which i think fits

"Even when nationalism is used by quasi-lefties its reactionary. By saying that we need "national liberation" or "capitalists are destroying our country" you are in fact proposing the ludicrous idea that everyone in country X shares the country and have something in common, thereby hiding class struggle behind the veil of national unity. The working class has no nation, and it has already created all too many nations for the local bourgeoisies all over the world in the name of national liberation."

Irish Left you seem to have a serious problem with the SP, just because there not "fighting on the front lines" .

All the sectarian violence takes away from what is really happening to working class in the north, which is savage cuts to there standard of living and services etc, The armed struggle is simply dividing the working class from fighting back against the Cuts which is what should be the focus.t

Nobody' saying that we shouldn't unite the working class and most republicans are involvsed in cross community things.
But when a small nationalist enclave in under attack from loyalist mobs lead by UVF murder gangs its not the time for wee socialist leaflets about sectarianism. Its time to stand with the working class and defend them against the fascists!

[scarletghoul]

Exactly. Im sure we all agree that the irish working class should unite , but what the sp is doing is stupid and out of touch. it would be like handing out leaflets in the warsaw ghetto as it was under attack about how the jewish and german fighters are just as bad, and that they should unite instead of sectarian fighting .. ok thats an extreme example, but its the same principle.

[thälmann]

as far as i know it was clear for republicans to unite with protestant workers. but i think they have to stop being unionist or loyalist.its not there right to stay in the united kingdom and living better because of some sort of apartheid.( i dont know if its is still the fact.)

the base for sectarianism is the partition and the british occupation.

and the SP leaflet is crazy...

[Cleansing Conspiratorial Revolutionary Flame]

'as far as i know it was never clear for republicans to unite with protestant workers'
While Irish Republicans should seek a form of unity with Protestant Workers, Unity of this nature cannot come at the cost of denying Working Class Irish Self-Determination against British Imperialism.
'but i think they have to stop being unionist or loyalist'
Indeed, as if the 'Protestant Working Class' is Unionist or Loyalist, they are inherently aiding towards the exploitation of the Irish Working Class and are attempting to maintain British Imperialism within Northern Ireland; If Unionism and Loyalism is not ousted, then the Capitalist System in Northern Ireland that is massively dominated by those within England, that seeks to exploit the Irish Working Class will continue to remain along with the Imperialist Relations that it seeks to continue to push in effect.

[Jolly Red Giant]

Exactly. Im sure we all agree that the irish working class should unite , but what the sp is doing is stupid and out of touch.
Why if the Socialist Party is so out of touch were thousands of leaflets snapped up people on the streets? why did hundreds queue to sign the petition and stop to discuss the situation and how to address it?


it would be like handing out leaflets in the warsaw ghetto as it was under attack about how the jewish and german fighters are just as bad, and that they should unite instead of sectarian fighting .. ok thats an extreme example, but its the same principle.
It's not the same principle - it is an example of crass stupidity on your part. The Short Strand is nothing remotely akin to the Warsaw ghetto and claiming that it is shows your complete lack of understanding of the situation in Belfast or the nature of sectarianism in the North.


as far as i know it was never clear for republicans to unite with protestant workers. but i think they have to stop being unionist or loyalist.
So from your perspective - All Protestants are loyalists - All Catholics are Republicans = All loyalists Bad - All Republicans good. Frotunately not everyone has such a reactionary outlook towards the working class


the base for sectarianism is the partition and the british occupation.
The current sectarian nature of society in Northern Ireland is rooted in the divisions within society. The cause of sectarianism is British Imperialism and capitalism (not partition - sectarianism existed long before partition). However, British Imperialism is not longer capable of manipulating and controlling sectarianism as it was able to in the past. It is deeply rooted in society and used by reactionaries on both sides to whip up tensions.


and the SP leaflet is crazy...
Which is why thousands of people wanted to read it.

[Jolly Red Giant]

While Irish Republicans should seek a form of unity with Protestant Workers, Unity of this nature cannot come at the cost of denying Working Class Irish Self-Determination against British Imperialism.
Irish working class self-determination is impossible without working class unity between Protestant and Catholic workers.




Indeed, as if the 'Protestant Working Class' is Unionist or Loyalist, they are inherently aiding towards the exploitation of the Irish Working Class and are attempting to maintain British Imperialism within Northern Ireland;
How are the Protestant working class 'inherently aiding towards the exploitation of the Irish Working Class' ? To suggest that the Protestant working class are consciously maintaining British Imperialism demonstrates that you got your knowledge of the North right out of the reactionary nationalist handbook.


If Unionism and Loyalism is not ousted, then the Capitalist System in Northern Ireland that is massively dominated by those within England, that seeks to exploit the Irish Working Class will continue to remain along with the Imperialist Relations that it seeks to continue to push in effect.
Bullsh*t - Unionism, Loyalism and British Imperialism cannot be ousted except through the emergence of a united mass working class movement and a socialist revolution. Your approach would sentence the working class of the North to unending sectarian conflict. British Imperialism has no strategic interest in remaining in the North. It is a massive financial, military, political and social drain on the British establishment. It cannot quit because of the sectarian monster that it has created and because of the potential impact of sectarianism in many cities on the British mainland. The approach of british imperialism since 1969 has been one of containment - of an acceptable level of violence - while maintaing some element of control in the situation.

[Cleansing Conspiratorial Revolutionary Flame]

Irish working class self-determination is impossible without working class unity between Protestant and Catholic workers.



How are the Protestant working class 'inherently aiding towards the exploitation of the Irish Working Class' ? To suggest that the Protestant working class are consciously maintaining British Imperialism demonstrates that you got your knowledge of the North right out of the reactionary nationalist handbook.


Bullsh*t - Unionism, Loyalism and British Imperialism cannot be ousted except through the emergence of a united mass working class movement and a socialist revolution. Your approach would sentence the working class of the North to unending sectarian conflict. British Imperialism has no strategic interest in remaining in the North. It is a massive financial, military, political and social drain on the British establishment. It cannot quit because of the sectarian monster that it has created and because of the potential impact of sectarianism in many cities on the British mainland. The approach of british imperialism since 1969 has been one of containment - of an acceptable level of violence - while maintaing some element of control in the situation.

Obviously you did not directly read what I had written, as I differentiated between Protestant Workers whom seek to oust British Imperialism that remains in Ireland and with Unionists and those whom are directly allied with British Imperialism.

'cannot be ousted except through the emergence of a united mass working class movement and a socialist revolution.'
Which Trotskyism is certainly not going to bring about with its dogmatic form of thinking and accusations of largely Catholic Workers based Social and Armed Movements of being 'Individualist Terrorist' as they chose to continue Armed Struggle against Imperialism and Capitalism while Trotskyism remained stagnate. Certainly Armed Action of Self-Defense and Offensive Armed Action against Imperialism and Capitalism while it continues to reek havoc against Irish Workers is utterly more valuable than the discussion of whether or whether not it is truly a 'United Movement'... As whether it is a 'United' Movement or not, it seeks to emancipate those whom have historically suffered under Imperialism and shatter the chains of oppression.

Shall there be a unified movement with Zionists? Shall there be a unified movement with those who had historically maintained White Domination within South Africa? Shall there be a united movement with those who have continually allowed for the National Bourgeois to continue Imperialism?


Obviously according to your logic, Catholic Workers who seek to oust Imperialism and arise from a Community basis cannot do so as they're not directly 'united' with those that have historically allowed for Imperialist Aggression and Domination. While certainly Protestant Workers in the face of Irish Action towards Imperialism and Capitalism should be allowed into the struggle; Certainly-- This cannot come at the cost of concessions towards Imperialism nor can this come at the cost of attempting to downplay the struggle of Irish Catholic Worker uprisings and simply wait for a 'United Uprising' between Catholics and Protestants.

'British Imperialism has no strategic interest in remaining in the North.'
:rolleyes: Just as it had no strategic interest of maintaining Imperialism within Ireland previously at the cost of executing those that had risen against Imperialism and maintaining an occupied Ireland.

'The approach of british imperialism since 1969 has been one of containment - of an acceptable level of violence - while maintaing some element of control in the situation.'
Containment? The British Civillizers saving the day from the Savage Catholics?

'An Acceptable Level of Violence'?

Violence that is used to maintain Imperialism within Ireland is 'acceptable'? As long as it maintains the British State of Occupation within Ireland? :rolleyes:
The reality is that the Sectarianism that continues is directly due to British Occupation, beginning with the British allowing for Protestant Deathsquads such as the UVF to operate under their indirect and direct commands in order to directly maintain British Imperialism.

The obvious response to these actions must be Self-Defense from the Working Class Irish Catholic Communities as if Self-Defense is not taken, British Imperialism will yet again be allowed to continue to roam freely at the cost of Irish Self-Determination.


As far as there being 'No Value' towards British Imperialism, British Imperialism has value for British Imperialists, as British Imperialism maintains a remnant of the former British Empire and allows English capital to flow into Northern Ireland.

Yet again, Dogmatic Trotskyism being silly.

[thälmann]

i meant it was clear to unite with the protestant working class. not never.

while it is right that unity between the two is better, it is not good to achieve this by talking about sectarian violence about both sides. one side is fighting imperialism and racism, and the other side is defending imperialism, and starting sectarian violence from time to time. it is also wrong to ignore the social differences between the two communitys.

so the struggle against imperialism and capitalism in ireland is necessary now. with or without the protestant working class, but of course not against them.

[Niall]

Why if the Socialist Party is so out of touch were thousands of leaflets snapped up people on the streets? why did hundreds queue to sign the petition and stop to discuss the situation and how to address it?


.

I take leaflets of loads of people in the street, doesnt mean i support them or agree with them. Loads of people signed the petition? Big deal. All that means is they want an end to the violent attacks, not that they agree with the SP.

[Irish Left]

Why if the Socialist Party is so out of touch were thousands of leaflets snapped up people on the streets? why did hundreds queue to sign the petition and stop to discuss the situation and how to address it?

Taking a leaflet doesn't mean anything. And im sure that all of them are in favour of building unity with working class protestants. But they would have been more thankful of you's if you's had went out and help defend the area when it was under siege from thousands of Loyalist and RUC!
What you's planning on doing with the petition lol?
Talk talk talk no action....


not the same principle - it is an example of crass stupidity on your part. The Short Strand is nothing remotely akin to the Warsaw ghetto and claiming that it is shows your complete lack of understanding of the situation in Belfast or the nature of sectarianism in the North.
Its exactly the same principle whether you like it or not.


So from your perspective - All Protestants are loyalists - All Catholics are Republicans = All loyalists Bad - All Republicans good. Frotunately not everyone has such a reactionary outlook towards the working class
Where did he say that? But all loyalists are unionists. And yes all loyalists are bed. Please don't tell me you also support the right wing sectarian, colonialist ideology?


The current sectarian nature of society in Northern Ireland is rooted in the divisions within society. The cause of sectarianism is British Imperialism and capitalism (not partition - sectarianism existed long before partition). However, British Imperialism is not longer capable of manipulating and controlling sectarianism as it was able to in the past. It is deeply rooted in society and used by reactionaries on both sides to whip up tensions.
And who put the partition here ffs!? The ongoing occupation must be ended with the help of working class protestants! Yes it does manipulate and control sectarianism. Don't delude yourself.
Please show me when republicans have used sectarianism to whip up tensions?



Which is why thousands of people wanted to read it.
Iv read about loyalists im not a loyalist.

[Irish Left]

How are the Protestant working class 'inherently aiding towards the exploitation of the Irish Working Class' ? To suggest that the Protestant working class are consciously maintaining British Imperialism demonstrates that you got your knowledge of the North right out of the reactionary nationalist handbook.

But they are lol. Thats basic mate. If you can't see that your blind.

[Jolly Red Giant]

Obviously you did not directly read what I had written, as I differentiated between Protestant Workers whom seek to oust British Imperialism that remains in Ireland and with Unionists and those whom are directly allied with British Imperialism.
I read exactly what you wrote -


While Irish Republicans should seek a form of unity with Protestant Workers, Unity of this nature cannot come at the cost of denying Working Class Irish Self-Determination against British Imperialism. And the direct extension of this is that nationalism must come before socialism.



Which Trotskyism is certainly not going to bring about with its dogmatic form of thinking and accusations of largely Catholic Workers based Social and Armed Movements of being 'Individualist Terrorist' as they chose to continue Armed Struggle against Imperialism and Capitalism while Trotskyism remained stagnate.
Name one - just one - movement that has engaged in individual terrorism that has succeeded in achieving its aims.


Offensive Armed Action against Imperialism and Capitalism while it continues to reek havoc against Irish Workers is utterly more valuable than the discussion of whether or whether not it is truly a 'United Movement'...
So the Omagh bombing was an offensive armed action against Imperialism and capitalism?


As whether it is a 'United' Movement or not, it seeks to emancipate those whom have historically suffered under Imperialism and shatter the chains of oppression.
Yes indeed - bomb a million Protestants into a united Ireland - they just don't know its good for them. Hate to tell you this - it has already been tried and failed - and if the dissident republicans continue they could very well catapult the working class people of Northern Ireland into a bloody sectarian civil war which will not result in shattering 'the chains of oppression' but the Balkanisation of the island and the emergence of bonapartist regimes North and South.


Shall there be a unified movement with Zionists?
No - but yes between the Israeli and Palestinian working class


Shall there be a unified movement with those who had historically maintained White Domination within South Africa?
No - but yes between the white working class and the black working class


Shall there be a united movement with those who have continually allowed for the National Bourgeois to continue Imperialism?
Absolutely not - but this is what you are actually arguing !!!!



Obviously according to your logic, Catholic Workers who seek to oust Imperialism and arise from a Community basis cannot do so as they're not directly 'united' with those that have historically allowed for Imperialist Aggression and Domination.
Catholic workers cannot oust Imperialism WITHOUT unitiing with the Protestant working class. It is a physical impossibility for the Catholic working class in the North to defeat imperialism - specifically because such a conflict would be sectarian based not class based.


This cannot come at the cost of concessions towards Imperialism nor can this come at the cost of attempting to downplay the struggle of Irish Catholic Worker uprisings and simply wait for a 'United Uprising' between Catholics and Protestants.
There have been no 'Irish Catholic worker uprisings - indeed such and 'uprising' would eb reactionary and sectarian in nature. This has nothing to do with 'simply waiting' for Catholic and Protestant working class unity - such unity is imperative in order to defeat Imperialism



:rolleyes: Just as it had no strategic interest of maintaining Imperialism within Ireland previously at the cost of executing those that had risen against Imperialism and maintaining an occupied Ireland.
Ireland in 2011 is not Ireland of 1922 - and if you do not realise that then you really need to chuck the politics. British imperialism used sectarianism in 1919-1922 to divide the working class movement in Ireland that was on the cusp of socialist revolution (something that they were ably supported by Republicanism). British Imperialism will use sectarianism again in the future - but at this point in time (and for the last 40 years) it has not served its interests.



Containment? The British Civillizers saving the day from the Savage Catholics?
The strategy has been clear - and the Good Friday Agreement (along with Sunningdale in 1973 and the Anglo_Irish Agreement in 1985) is the demonstration of that fact. The existance of repression in the North does not take away from the fact that Imperialism is engaged in 'containment' - indeed the respression is part of the process of 'containment'.



Violence that is used to maintain Imperialism within Ireland is 'acceptable'? As long as it maintains the British State of Occupation within Ireland?
The violence I was referrring to was not just the violence of the British state but also the violence of loyalist and republican paramilitaries and wider sectarian violence.



The reality is that the Sectarianism that continues is directly due to British Occupation, beginning with the British allowing for Protestant Deathsquads such as the UVF to operate under their indirect and direct commands in order to directly maintain British Imperialism.
Sectarianism exists in both communities, is manifest in acts of sectarian violence against both communities and British imperialism no longer controls it - as demonstrated by the attacks on the Short Strand this week.


The obvious response to these actions must be Self-Defense from the Working Class Irish Catholic Communities
Actually the obvious response is democratically organised self-defence in ALL working class communities - not just Catholic ones.


as if Self-Defense is not taken, British Imperialism will yet again be allowed to continue to roam freely at the cost of Irish Self-Determination.
Your assumption here is that the violence this week was orchastrated by and in the interests of British Imperialism - not the case on both counts.



As far as there being 'No Value' towards British Imperialism, British Imperialism has value for British Imperialists, as British Imperialism maintains a remnant of the former British Empire and allows English capital to flow into Northern Ireland.
Northern Ireland costs the Brits £billions each year - it is a massive drain on British resources - and the British Empire is long dead - and they know it. Indeed they would like nothing better than to dump all of what few scattered islands remain (with the possible exception of the Falklands because of the potential for oil).


Yet again, Dogmatic Trotskyism being silly.
No - the reactionary nationalist playbook still finds its adherents even though it is 150 years out of date.

[Jolly Red Giant]

one side is fighting imperialism and racism,
And again - how was the Omagh bombing 'fighting imperialism and racism'?


it is also wrong to ignore the social differences between the two communitys.
What social differences - both Catholic and Protestant working class communities are blighted by poverty, unemployemnt, poor housing, drugs and anti-social behaviour - with the added problems of paramilitarism.


so the struggle against imperialism and capitalism in ireland is necessary now. with or without the protestant working class, but of course not against them.
The struggle against imerpialsim and capitalism can only be achieved as a result of unity between Catholic and Protestant workers - without the protestant working it would inevitably be against them, it cannot be avoided.


Taking a leaflet doesn't mean anything.
I am sure if the leaflet was 'pretty shit' and/or 'shite' and/or 'crazy' - as has been claimed here - then the at least some of the thousands of people would have said the same thing - but guess what - they didn't.



But they would have been more thankful of you's if you's had went out and help defend the area when it was under siege from thousands of Loyalist and RUC!
Really - be clear about this - the only action that has prevented large scale sectarian conflict in the North over the past 40 years has been the intervention of rank-and-file trade unionists acting in unison to oppose all paramilitary attacks. Starting with the Better Life for All campaign in the mid-70's and repeatedly taking strike action against paramilitary threats and killings. It is only with united class action that sectarian attacks can be stopped and working class communities protected.




Its exactly the same principle whether you like it or not.
Whether your would like to admit it or not - Northern ireland is not a fascist state.



And who put the partition here ffs!? The ongoing occupation must be ended with the help of working class protestants!
And can only be ended as part of a united working class movement for socialist revolution.


Yes it does manipulate and control sectarianism. Don't delude yourself.
Manipulate yes - control absolutely not - and at this point in time it is not in the interests of Imperialism to whip up sectarianism. AS I posed above - are you suggesting that the attacks this week on the short Strand were instigated by British Imperialism?


Please show me when republicans have used sectarianism to whip up tensions?
Practically every action republicans have taken during the Troubles have increased sectarian tensions - and they are still at it today.



Iv read about loyalists im not a loyalist.
I am glad to hear it - it is clear that you are a republican though.


But they are lol. Thats basic mate. If you can't see that your blind.
Then the only logical extension of your argument is that the Catholic working class must fight the Protestant working class as well as British Imperialism - a recipe for a massive sectarian conflict that will destroy both the Catholic and Protestant working class in the North.

[thälmann]

omagh bombing...come on. you want to reduce the armed struggle in ireland against the british and loyalist troops to this? sorry but this is not an argument. do you wanna know how many civilians in vietnam war died of failed actions of the liberation fighters? this is really stupid.

and again, the precondition for a unity between the workers is that the unionists stop being unionists. there is no other way. and this would be much easier if all socialists make this totally clear, instead of play it down to get unionist workers for a cause that a unionist can not support!!

youve talked again about the sectarian history of both sides. but who was privileged, also in voting? who orchestrated racist pogroms? who burned catholic areas, because they demand equal rights? who was clearly on the side of reaction and imperialism in the last 40 years? iam not talking about religion, i know that there are protestant republicans. but this is what its all about. unionism,loyalism is reationary. republicanism is progressive.
when these two sides clash, its impossible for a revolutioary to stay neutral and talk to both sides to be peaceful.



the press release from 32 csm about what happened:

The 32 County Sovereignty Movement wishes to condemn the outrageous sectarian attacks that have occurred on the Short Strand in the past number of nights. It is blantantly obvious that these attacks, which have been orchestrated by Loyalist paramilitaries are designed to try and restore some prestige to their organisations which are no more than fronts for criminality. What is also obvious is that this has been facilitated by the RUC/PSNI who allowed the attacks to take place. This should be juxtaposed against their response to Republican protestors in Ardoyne.

During the 12th of July last year they had no hesitation in deploying plastic bullets and water cannons, it would appear that when the perpetrators are loyalists they have a free hand. The fact that shots were fired into the grounds of St Mathhew's church by Loyalist mobs should act as a wake up call for any republicans still convinced that this is a new impartial police force. They have done nothing to protect the community of the Short Strand, just as the RUC did nothing when the residents came under attack in recent years. We salute all those who defended their community and urge all republicans both in Belfast and farther afield to stand by the residents during their hour of need.
Beir Bua

http://www.32csm.info/index.html

[Jolly Red Giant]

omagh bombing...come on. you want to reduce the armed struggle in ireland against the british and loyalist troops to this?
Just one from a very long list -


sorry but this is not an argument. do you wanna know how many civilians in vietnam war died of failed actions of the liberation fighters? this is really stupid.
And you are trying to suggest that the campaign of individual terror of republican paramilitaries is in any way comparable to the mass uprising campaign by the Vietnamese working class and peasantry against US Imperialism? - if you are then you really have no idea what you are talking about.


the precondition for a unity between the workers is that the unionists stop being unionists. there is no other way.
The assumption is that the entire Protestant working class is unionist and that they must stop being unionist and support republicanism.


and this would be much easier if all socialists make this totally clear, instead of play it down to get unionist workers for a cause that a unionist can not support!!
I would argue that both unionism and nationalism are reactionary in nature and the only way of defeating imperialism is to unite Catholic and protestant workers in the basis of class issue and a developing class consciousness - not by kow-towing to reactionary nationalism.


youve talked again about the sectarian history of both sides. but who was privileged, also in voting? who orchestrated racist pogroms? who burned catholic areas, because they demand equal rights?
I am only too well aware of the history of the North - I lived through it.


who was clearly on the side of reaction and imperialism in the last 40 years?
There you go again - implying that all Protestants are on the side of reaction and imperialism.


iam not talking about religion, i know that there are protestant republicans. but this is what its all about. unionism,loyalism is reationary. republicanism is progressive.
You are claiming that there are only two sides - one loyalism (reactionary) and the other republicanism (progressive) - I would contend that there are three sides - loyalism and nationalism (different characters but both reactionary) and class unity (the only progressive force on the planet).



when these two sides clash, its impossible for a revolutioary to stay neutral and talk to both sides to be peaceful.
Again - the claim is that there are only two sides - As a revolutionary I oppose both loyalism and republicanism and I stand on the side of the working class, class unity and socialism.



the press release from 32 csm about what happened:
Again - typical republican nonsense - counter-weigh the states attitude towards catholics and Protestants. It reminds me of a meeting of the National Forum for Peace and Reconciliation following earlier rioting in East Belfast that I attended (several years ago) when loyalist and republican delegates ended up arguing about the fact that the RUC fired 20 rubber bueelts into the Short Strand and only 18 rubber bullets on the Newtownards Road - and the republicans were arguing - not that rubber bullets shouldn't have been fired - but that there should have been the same number fired into both areas.

The entire statement is a rant that the PSNU didn't attack the loyalist rioters in the same way that they attacked republicans - crass sectarian nonsense and nothing more.

[thälmann]

Just one from a very long list -


[QUOTE]
And you are trying to suggest that the campaign of individual terror of republican paramilitaries is in any way comparable to the mass uprising campaign by the Vietnamese working class and peasantry against US Imperialism? - if you are then you really have no idea what you are talking about.

not the same, but the same argument


The assumption is that the entire Protestant working class is unionist and that they must stop being unionist and support republicanism.
where did i say that there are all unionist?



I would argue that both unionism and nationalism are reactionary in nature and the only way of defeating imperialism is to unite Catholic and protestant workers in the basis of class issue and a developing class consciousness - not by kow-towing to reactionary nationalism.




and defeating imperialism in ireland means to end the occupation and establish a socialist republic. which is the cause of (socialist)republicanism


I am only too well aware of the history of the North - I lived through it.
and why are you talking then about the two equal bad sides?



There you go again - implying that all Protestants are on the side of reaction and imperialism.

iam talking about unionism/loyalism!! :cursing:



Again - the claim is that there are only two sides - As a revolutionary I oppose both loyalism and republicanism and I stand on the side of the working class, class unity and socialism.

so you are against a socialist republic on the whole ireland? what socialism do you want ?

[Jolly Red Giant]

A lot of this stuff is going around in circles and you appear incapable of understanding the logic of you arguments




where did i say this.


who was clearly on the side of reaction and imperialism in the last 40 years? ...
the precondition for a unity between the workers is that the unionists stop being unionists.

and what does defeating imperialism mean in ireland? a united socialist ireland for all its citizens,which is simply the (socialist)republican cause.
The issue is not the public pronouncements of left-republicans (who by the way always put a united Ireland as the paramount position over a socialist Ireland) - but how can a socialist Ireland be achieved - the left republican position is that the Protestant working class must support republicanism (not going to happen - ever) the socialist position is that socialist Ireland will only be achieved by building a mass united working class movement.

At the end of the day the position of left-republicans is based on the fact that they do not believe that working class unity is possible and as such the Protestant working class must be regarded as an impediment to a united Ireland - the socialist position is that - not only is working class unity possible - it is the only force capable of defeating imperialism and establishing a workers republic.


how do you come to the idea that republicanism is against the working class unity?
simply because the entire tactics and strategy of republicanism creates division between the two communities and always will.



so why are you talking always about two sides beiing so unpeaceful and so on?
It is nothing to do with being 'unpeaceful' and everything to do with the material, social, economic and political conditions that exist in the North. Sectarianism exists - it is embedded in both communities - it raises its head at every point of crisis and it can only be defeated (along with imperialism) by the building of working class unity on the basis of class struggle and class issues.



iam talking about unionism and loyalism!!! whats wrong with you?
You clearly have no comprehension of the logical consequences of your argument.



that means you are against a socialist irish republic??
No - I am in favour of a socialist Ireland - a 32 county workers republic linked in a free and voluntary federation with a socialist England, socialist Scotland and socialist Wales as part of a wider socialist federation of Europe.

The difference between you and me is that I understand the only process by which it can be achieved - i.e. by basing the revolutionary movement on working class unity - you on the other hand are basing yourself on the blind alley of republican paramilitarism that has not, cannot and will not achieve anything in the interests of the working class (Catholic or Protestant).

By the way - figure out how to use the 'quote' system properly - it is hard enough to figure out the argument you are attempting to make without having to decipher who said what.

[thälmann]

The issue is not the public pronouncements of left-republicans (who by the way always put a united Ireland as the paramount position over a socialist Ireland) - but how can a socialist Ireland be achieved - the left republican position is that the Protestant working class must support republicanism (not going to happen - ever) the socialist position is that socialist Ireland will only be achieved by building a mass united working class movement.


and that is the core of the whole question. a socialist republic is not the aim of somebody who want to stay with the united kingdom, and live as a privileged citizen. and yes of course must the protestant workers share the cause of a socialist republic. whatever culture, religion and so on he want to live.
there was a lot of protestant republicans in history, so i doubt that it is impossible.
and what is a mass united working class movement with the aim of a socialist republic other then socialist republicanism?

[Irish Left]

I read exactly what you wrote -
And the direct extension of this is that nationalism must come before socialism.


Name one - just one - movement that has engaged in individual terrorism that has succeeded in achieving its aims.


So the Omagh bombing was an offensive armed action against Imperialism and capitalism?


Yes indeed - bomb a million Protestants into a united Ireland - they just don't know its good for them. Hate to tell you this - it has already been tried and failed - and if the dissident republicans continue they could very well catapult the working class people of Northern Ireland into a bloody sectarian civil war which will not result in shattering 'the chains of oppression' but the Balkanisation of the island and the emergence of bonapartist regimes North and South.


No - but yes between the Israeli and Palestinian working class


No - but yes between the white working class and the black working class


Absolutely not - but this is what you are actually arguing !!!!


Catholic workers cannot oust Imperialism WITHOUT unitiing with the Protestant working class. It is a physical impossibility for the Catholic working class in the North to defeat imperialism - specifically because such a conflict would be sectarian based not class based.


There have been no 'Irish Catholic worker uprisings - indeed such and 'uprising' would eb reactionary and sectarian in nature. This has nothing to do with 'simply waiting' for Catholic and Protestant working class unity - such unity is imperative in order to defeat Imperialism


Ireland in 2011 is not Ireland of 1922 - and if you do not realise that then you really need to chuck the politics. British imperialism used sectarianism in 1919-1922 to divide the working class movement in Ireland that was on the cusp of socialist revolution (something that they were ably supported by Republicanism). British Imperialism will use sectarianism again in the future - but at this point in time (and for the last 40 years) it has not served its interests.


The strategy has been clear - and the Good Friday Agreement (along with Sunningdale in 1973 and the Anglo_Irish Agreement in 1985) is the demonstration of that fact. The existance of repression in the North does not take away from the fact that Imperialism is engaged in 'containment' - indeed the respression is part of the process of 'containment'.


The violence I was referrring to was not just the violence of the British state but also the violence of loyalist and republican paramilitaries and wider sectarian violence.


Sectarianism exists in both communities, is manifest in acts of sectarian violence against both communities and British imperialism no longer controls it - as demonstrated by the attacks on the Short Strand this week.


Actually the obvious response is democratically organised self-defence in ALL working class communities - not just Catholic ones.


Your assumption here is that the violence this week was orchastrated by and in the interests of British Imperialism - not the case on both counts.


Northern Ireland costs the Brits £billions each year - it is a massive drain on British resources - and the British Empire is long dead - and they know it. Indeed they would like nothing better than to dump all of what few scattered islands remain (with the possible exception of the Falklands because of the potential for oil).


No - the reactionary nationalist playbook still finds its adherents even though it is 150 years out of date.

You need to wake up mate.

[Irish Left]

And again - how was the Omagh bombing 'fighting imperialism and racism'?


What social differences - both Catholic and Protestant working class communities are blighted by poverty, unemployemnt, poor housing, drugs and anti-social behaviour - with the added problems of paramilitarism.


The struggle against imerpialsim and capitalism can only be achieved as a result of unity between Catholic and Protestant workers - without the protestant working it would inevitably be against them, it cannot be avoided.


I am sure if the leaflet was 'pretty shit' and/or 'shite' and/or 'crazy' - as has been claimed here - then the at least some of the thousands of people would have said the same thing - but guess what - they didn't.



Really - be clear about this - the only action that has prevented large scale sectarian conflict in the North over the past 40 years has been the intervention of rank-and-file trade unionists acting in unison to oppose all paramilitary attacks. Starting with the Better Life for All campaign in the mid-70's and repeatedly taking strike action against paramilitary threats and killings. It is only with united class action that sectarian attacks can be stopped and working class communities protected.



Whether your would like to admit it or not - Northern ireland is not a fascist state.


And can only be ended as part of a united working class movement for socialist revolution.


Manipulate yes - control absolutely not - and at this point in time it is not in the interests of Imperialism to whip up sectarianism. AS I posed above - are you suggesting that the attacks this week on the short Strand were instigated by British Imperialism?


Practically every action republicans have taken during the Troubles have increased sectarian tensions - and they are still at it today.


I am glad to hear it - it is clear that you are a republican though.


Then the only logical extension of your argument is that the Catholic working class must fight the Protestant working class as well as British Imperialism - a recipe for a massive sectarian conflict that will destroy both the Catholic and Protestant working class in the North.

Aw here would ye fcuk up about sectarian tension and conflict ffs. You sound like the inside of a British propaganda booklet. I can't believe someone claiming to be a revolutionary has been so brainwashed by counter revolutionary propaganda.

And on further inspection you didn't even set up the stall in the short strand lol.

Heres a question. Where will you and the SP be when a sectarian coat trailing orange march goes down the same road tomorrow? Will you be standing with the strand or writing your next anti republican artical?

[Irish Left]

omagh bombing...come on. you want to reduce the armed struggle in ireland against the british and loyalist troops to this? sorry but this is not an argument. do you wanna know how many civilians in vietnam war died of failed actions of the liberation fighters? this is really stupid.

and again, the precondition for a unity between the workers is that the unionists stop being unionists. there is no other way. and this would be much easier if all socialists make this totally clear, instead of play it down to get unionist workers for a cause that a unionist can not support!!

youve talked again about the sectarian history of both sides. but who was privileged, also in voting? who orchestrated racist pogroms? who burned catholic areas, because they demand equal rights? who was clearly on the side of reaction and imperialism in the last 40 years? iam not talking about religion, i know that there are protestant republicans. but this is what its all about. unionism,loyalism is reationary. republicanism is progressive.
when these two sides clash, its impossible for a revolutioary to stay neutral and talk to both sides to be peaceful.



the press release from 32 csm about what happened:

The 32 County Sovereignty Movement wishes to condemn the outrageous sectarian attacks that have occurred on the Short Strand in the past number of nights. It is blantantly obvious that these attacks, which have been orchestrated by Loyalist paramilitaries are designed to try and restore some prestige to their organisations which are no more than fronts for criminality. What is also obvious is that this has been facilitated by the RUC/PSNI who allowed the attacks to take place. This should be juxtaposed against their response to Republican protestors in Ardoyne.

During the 12th of July last year they had no hesitation in deploying plastic bullets and water cannons, it would appear that when the perpetrators are loyalists they have a free hand. The fact that shots were fired into the grounds of St Mathhew's church by Loyalist mobs should act as a wake up call for any republicans still convinced that this is a new impartial police force. They have done nothing to protect the community of the Short Strand, just as the RUC did nothing when the residents came under attack in recent years. We salute all those who defended their community and urge all republicans both in Belfast and farther afield to stand by the residents during their hour of need.
Beir Bua

http://www.32csm.info/index.html

Well said comrade.

[IndependentCitizen]

All the information i got came from sky news and I would like ppl to expalin some things from me:
-Belfast youths are being attracted to loyalists or republicans.
-How strong is IRA, how strong is UVF.
-What is Sein Fein doing?



Irish members please explain this.
Thanks in advance.

Youths? Look at facts provided in the articles, and the pictures. These aren't youth out for a bit of fun. These are the hardcore, older lot that have been involved in the UVF in the past. However, in regards to the situation with the republicans, I'll let an Irish comrade who lives there answer that.

RIRA and Óglaigh na hÉireann aren't that strong in terms of numbers, but they sure as hell have more support and more than the UVF.
The UVF since the RIRA bombings have remained relatively low-profile. I cannot imagine their numbers being more, or even equal to that of the republicans.

Sinn Fein...fuck all, probably getting cosy with the Queen.

[Irish Left]

[QUOTE=Jolly Red Giant;2152691]Just one from a very long list -



not the same, but the same argument

.
where did i say that there are all unionist?



and defeating imperialism in ireland means to end the occupation and establish a socialist republic. which is the cause of (socialist)republicanism

.
and why are you talking then about the two equal bad sides?


iam talking about unionism/loyalism!! :cursing:


so you are against a socialist republic on the whole ireland? what socialism do you want ?

You'll be going round in circles trying to debate with the SP. They do everything to try and make it sound like a sectarian conflict and even shun true Irish Socialists.
They SP don't know what they want.

[IndependentCitizen]

So glad I ditched the SP....

[Irish Left]

All the information i got came from sky news and I would like ppl to expalin some things from me:
-Belfast youths are being attracted to loyalists or republicans.
-How strong is IRA, how strong is UVF.
-What is Sein Fein doing?



Irish members please explain this.
Thanks in advance.

Youths are a mix all over the place.
Armed republicans support is growing.
SF is administering british and helping the RUC jail republicans.

[Jolly Red Giant]

Socialist Party / CWI Statement on East Belfast Riots.

Only united working class action can prevent further attacks

Rioting in east Belfast on Monday 20th and Tuesday 21st June – the worst in recent years - did not appear from a blue sky. Throughout the ‘Troubles’, the interface between the Catholic Short Strand and Protestant Lower Newtownards Road has been the scene of sporadic sectarian violence emanating from both communities. In recent months, there has been an increasing number of attacks on homes in both areas and this has ratcheted up sectarian tensions. The weekend of the 18th and 19th June was particularly tense, with attacks on homes in both communities intensifying and a young Protestant woman being hit by a brick thrown from the Short Strand. The UVF [Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF) - a loyalist paramilitary organisation] used this incident to organise hundreds of young people from across east Belfast to join them in an orchestrated attack on the Short Strand.

There is little doubt that the UVF carried out the attack for its own cynical reasons. It has been angered by the Historical Enquiry Team’s continued investigation into its role in sectarian atrocities during the Troubles [the Historical Enquiries Team was established by the PSNI to “examine all deaths which can be attributed to the security situation here between 1968 and 1998”].


Like the rioting in Rathcoole [a housing estate in Newtownabbey, County Antrim] last year, this was an attempt to flex its muscles and send a warning to the state to back off. Internal tensions in the UVF and attempts by the UVF in East Belfast to establish its independence from the UVF Shankill Road leadership may also have been factors leading up to the riots. On Wednesday 22nd June, UVF members were among those stewarding the area to prevent clashes between young people following a series of talks. Obviously, they felt their point had been made. The UVF certainly did not bring the attacks on the Short Strand to an end because of any concern for either community.


Shots fired


When the rioting broke out dissident republican paramilitaries consciously intervened. Two young Protestant men, and a journalist, were injured by shots fired from the Short Strand. The dissident groups wish to be seen as the defenders of the community and in a highly symbolic action fired from the grounds of St Matthew’s Church. Forty years ago Billy McKee, Belfast commander of the newly formed Provisional IRA, fired from the same place in a gun battle which left five dead. This was one of the key events in the establishment of the Provisionals as a substantial force. The myth developed that the Provos had defended the area. In reality, such armed actions are not capable of defending working class communities. It wasn’t true forty years ago and it is certainly not true now. In reality, the actions of the dissidents increase sectarian division and are designed to do so. The dissidents are seeking to develop a base of support in the communities by their actions and have no interest whatsoever in the welfare of working class people.


These events are yet another demonstration that, despite the propaganda from the establishment, sectarianism has not been overcome by the so-called ‘peace process’. In fact, as the Socialist Party has previously explained in depth, the institutions established by the Good Friday Agreement have cemented and deepened sectarian division. The rioting also reflects the dire social conditions which exist in these communities. Both the Short Strand and the Lower Newtownards Road are marginalised working-class areas with high levels of unemployment and poor educational opportunities for young people. Youth who see no hope of a decent future and who feel alienated from society can be drawn towards sectarian forces such as the UVF and dissident republicans.


Assembly parties depend upon sectarian division

Peter Robinson [First Minister] publicly offered to intervene into the situation to try to find a resolution but neither he nor any politician from the main parties can solve these problems- all the Assembly parties depend upon sectarian division to maintain their political power. They have overseen the development of economic and social conditions in these communities which fuel sectarian violence. Now, they are implementing £4 billion cuts to public services which will drastically worsen these conditions. Neither can the intervention of the PSNI prevent such conflicts from flaring up. In fact, the actions of the PSNI often serve to increase tensions.


For now, the conflict has subsided but nothing is resolved. The conditions which sparked the riots remain to ignite at another point, not just in east Belfast but at all sectarian interfaces. The riots serve as a warning of what lies in store this summer and in the longer term if the underlying issues are not dealt with. Already there has been trouble at the Twadell Avenue/Ardoyne interface [North Belfast], further confrontations around the Short Strand and the 12th July parades are just around the corner.


The majority of people in the Short Strand and lower Newtownards Road, and the majority of people in other interface areas, are totally opposed to sectarian attacks. Despite this conflict does break out. Conscious sectarian elements deliberately foment low level attacks on a regular basis and seek opportunities to provoke more serious outbreaks of violence. Whilst working class people on either side of the ‘peace-lines’ can and do work hard in their own areas to prevent attacks, it is of vital importance that genuine activists link up and work together across the peace-lines if a more permanent solution to the problem of sectarian attacks is to be found.


Joint bodies of trade union and genuine community activists should be established across the interfaces. Such groups should engage in a co-ordinated manner to prevent sectarian attacks, for example, by organising joint patrols of areas and joint stewarding when necessary. To really make an impact and to put sectarian groupings on the defensive, it is important that such bodies are not just an attempt to link two communities with separate identities and interests. Negotiations, discussion and agreement are of course vital but ultimately ways must be found to genuinely bring working class communities together. Genuine grassroots anti-sectarian bodies must attempt to represent the common interests of working class people on either side of the interfaces. Such common interests include the fundamental right to live in peace and free from sectarian harassment, intimidation and attack, and the right to a decent job on a living wage, and to high quality services for themselves and their families.


It is not possible to outline in advance the exact way in which successful anti-sectarian initiatives will take shape. It can be stated that however that trade union activists based in interface areas can and should play a key role in taking such initiatives. The trade unions are by far the largest organisations which unite working class people. At key points throughout the last forty years trade union activists have held the line in combating sectarianism. Unity in the workplace depends to a large extent on the activists who build the unions. These same activists can play a key role now in initiating united working class action against sectarianism and sectarian attacks in all working class areas, including interface areas.


Taking such initiatives is not easy, especially at times of sharp increases in tension and violence. If even a handful of activists on both sides of an interface were to take a stand however, they could mobilise large numbers of local people behind them, and transform the situation. A determined lead can make all the difference. Local action to tackle local threats is key but so too is the role of the wider trade union movement which can generalise anti-sectarian movements through local and Northern Ireland wide strikes and city and town centre demonstrations and rallies.


A political alternative

Anti-sectarian bodies should consciously take up social and economic issues from the outset. Uniting communities in their common interests, to campaign on issues like youth unemployment and oppose attacks on services would not only strengthen campaigns on these issues, but would help to break down sectarian divisions. Ultimately, tackling the conditions which breed sectarian conflict is the only way to defeat the reactionary forces that base themselves on division.


The collapse in turnout in the recent elections demonstrates that a growing layer of workers and young people are completely disillusioned with the main parties. Many of those who stayed at home are repulsed by sectarian politics. However, as the recent events in east Belfast demonstrate, if a political alternative is not built, then reactionary, sectarian groups can develop further and gain support. A new party of the working-class, which actively combats sectarianism, is urgently needed. The trade union movement has an essential part in bringing such a party into being and must now begin to take steps in this direction. A new party will only develop a stable mass base if it adopts the socialist policies which are capable of delivering real change for the communities in the Short Strand and Lower Newtownards Road and every other working class community in Northern Ireland. Ultimately only a socialist transformation of society is capable of delivering real change and sweeping away the poison of sectarianism forever.

http://www.socialistpartyni.net/statement-a-analysis/northern-ireland/643-east-belfast-riots-stop-all-sectarian-attacks-

[Hoggy_RS]

Socialist Party / CWI Statement on East Belfast Riots.

Only united working class action can prevent further attacks

Rioting in east Belfast on Monday 20th and Tuesday 21st June – the worst in recent years - did not appear from a blue sky. Throughout the ‘Troubles’, the interface between the Catholic Short Strand and Protestant Lower Newtownards Road has been the scene of sporadic sectarian violence emanating from both communities. In recent months, there has been an increasing number of attacks on homes in both areas and this has ratcheted up sectarian tensions. The weekend of the 18th and 19th June was particularly tense, with attacks on homes in both communities intensifying and a young Protestant woman being hit by a brick thrown from the Short Strand. The UVF [Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF) - a loyalist paramilitary organisation] used this incident to organise hundreds of young people from across east Belfast to join them in an orchestrated attack on the Short Strand.

There is little doubt that the UVF carried out the attack for its own cynical reasons. It has been angered by the Historical Enquiry Team’s continued investigation into its role in sectarian atrocities during the Troubles [the Historical Enquiries Team was established by the PSNI to “examine all deaths which can be attributed to the security situation here between 1968 and 1998”].


Like the rioting in Rathcoole [a housing estate in Newtownabbey, County Antrim] last year, this was an attempt to flex its muscles and send a warning to the state to back off. Internal tensions in the UVF and attempts by the UVF in East Belfast to establish its independence from the UVF Shankill Road leadership may also have been factors leading up to the riots. On Wednesday 22nd June, UVF members were among those stewarding the area to prevent clashes between young people following a series of talks. Obviously, they felt their point had been made. The UVF certainly did not bring the attacks on the Short Strand to an end because of any concern for either community.


Shots fired


When the rioting broke out dissident republican paramilitaries consciously intervened. Two young Protestant men, and a journalist, were injured by shots fired from the Short Strand. The dissident groups wish to be seen as the defenders of the community and in a highly symbolic action fired from the grounds of St Matthew’s Church. Forty years ago Billy McKee, Belfast commander of the newly formed Provisional IRA, fired from the same place in a gun battle which left five dead. This was one of the key events in the establishment of the Provisionals as a substantial force. The myth developed that the Provos had defended the area. In reality, such armed actions are not capable of defending working class communities. It wasn’t true forty years ago and it is certainly not true now. In reality, the actions of the dissidents increase sectarian division and are designed to do so. The dissidents are seeking to develop a base of support in the communities by their actions and have no interest whatsoever in the welfare of working class people.


These events are yet another demonstration that, despite the propaganda from the establishment, sectarianism has not been overcome by the so-called ‘peace process’. In fact, as the Socialist Party has previously explained in depth, the institutions established by the Good Friday Agreement have cemented and deepened sectarian division. The rioting also reflects the dire social conditions which exist in these communities. Both the Short Strand and the Lower Newtownards Road are marginalised working-class areas with high levels of unemployment and poor educational opportunities for young people. Youth who see no hope of a decent future and who feel alienated from society can be drawn towards sectarian forces such as the UVF and dissident republicans.


No comparison between the UVF and 'dissident' republicans. No doubt 'dissidents' are sectarian for being anti-imperialist? I suppose the SP has to add in a dig at republicans when mentioning the UVF, sure they don't want to upset their old comrades in the PUP.

Had to laugh at the dig at Billy McKee and the defence of the short strand too. I suppose ye were off creating revolutionary situations in the Labour Party when those damn sectarians were refusing loyalists the right to attack nationalists.

Basically the SP position is to give as many concessions to unionists to attract them to class politics while doing everything possible to alienate nationalists. The left wing Alliance Party.

[Rocketpig]

The ignorance in this thread is seriously depressing. There seems to be this tendency on the left to support Irish republicanism over British imperialism, despite the fact that both ideologies are exploitative, brutal and authoritarian. And I think it's very naive to think that the republican groups have any interest whatsoever in socialism.

[Hoggy_RS]

The ignorance in this thread is seriously depressing. There seems to be this tendency on the left to support Irish republicanism over British imperialism, despite the fact that both ideologies are exploitative, brutal and authoritarian. And I think it's very naive to think that the republican groups have any interest whatsoever in socialism.

Aye, its all a big scam. Republican groups talk about socialism while the real goal is to enslave us all in their ultra catholic fascist united ireland.

[Rocketpig]

Aye, its all a big scam. Republican groups talk about socialism while the real goal is to enslave us all in their ultra catholic fascist united ireland.

I'm just going on the historical record. Republicanism has always claimed to be revolutionary yet in reality is just the same as the British government, albeit with an Irish stamp (like changing the name of the office into Irish or something). Also, being an anarchist, I wouldn't want to be associated in any way with any form of nationalism or statist ideology, especially one that claims legitimacy for its violence from a near 100 year old election. Real democratic stuff there.

Northern Ireland is quite possibly the worst place for any sort of working class struggle to take place. In my opinion we're stuck with the status quo until people can abandon loyalism and republicanism.

[Crux]

So glad I ditched the SP....
Because the internet republican hard men on here have proven themselfes so convincing? :rolleyes:
Never have I been happier to be in the CWI when I see the foam at the mouth nationalist and secterian stuff internet republicans come out with. I have seenthese debates over and over, it always ends a trainwreck. Now there of course are exceptions among the left republicans, and the internet isn't exactly known for bringing out the brightest minds anyway. What's amusing is that the interent republicans tend to be so incredibly ahistorical. Like the past 30 years never happened. But yeah Up the 'RA I am sure it will work out completely different this time...:rolleyes:

[Tim Finnegan]

Northern Ireland is quite possibly the worst place for any sort of working class struggle to take place. In my opinion we're stuck with the status quo until people can abandon loyalism and republicanism.
Agreed, as my sig no doubt suggests. ;)

[Wanted Man]

Hey Tim, we can see your sig for ourselves. No need to point it out to us in every goddamn post.

Anyway, apparently there was more going on last night, and the Orange march will be today. No doubt anyone who physically opposes these marches is also a "sectarian" according to the CWI.

[Hoggy_RS]

I'm just going on the historical record. Republicanism has always claimed to be revolutionary yet in reality is just the same as the British government, albeit with an Irish stamp (like changing the name of the office into Irish or something). Also, being an anarchist, I wouldn't want to be associated in any way with any form of nationalism or statist ideology, especially one that claims legitimacy for its violence from a near 100 year old election. Real democratic stuff there.

Northern Ireland is quite possibly the worst place for any sort of working class struggle to take place. In my opinion we're stuck with the status quo until people can abandon loyalism and republicanism.
So because the bourgeois nationalists of 1922 too control of the free state, you can discredit all republicanism? Ridiculous.

Republicanism is in no way in line with the kind of nationalism that the left seek to oppose.


Because the internet republican hard men on here have proven themselfes so convincing? :rolleyes:
Never have I been happier to be in the CWI when I see the foam at the mouth nationalist and secterian stuff internet republicans come out with. I have seenthese debates over and over, it always ends a trainwreck. Now there of course are exceptions among the left republicans, and the internet isn't exactly known for bringing out the brightest minds anyway. What's amusing is that the interent republicans tend to be so incredibly ahistorical. Like the past 30 years never happened. But yeah Up the 'RA I am sure it will work out completely different this time...:rolleyes:
Where is all this nationalist sectarian stuff coming out? In your imagination is it?

Socialist republicanism has learned huge lessons from the past 30 years. You may notice that the IRSP and Eirigi do not support armed struggle.

Left republicans are actually involved in cross community intiatives. What are the CWI/SP at? Doing their best to alienate nationalists no doubt. As long as the SP seeks to equate republicanism and loyalism equally, then they are doomed to failure. How anyone can compare the two ideologies is outrageous. To compare the ideas of James Connolly with William Craig or Basil Brooke.

[thälmann]

those bad sectarian republicans...its like in south africa where those sectarian blacks have always alienated the white working class with their terrorism...

[Jolly Red Giant]

So because the bourgeois nationalists of 1922 too control of the free state, you can discredit all republicanism? Ridiculous.
What happened in 1922 is indicitative of the political philosophy of nationalism. The inevitable consequence of adopting a republican position (as opposed to a class position) on the national question is compromise with Imperialism. That is the current phase of the republican movement. SF has come to an accomodation with imperialism - and the republican movement has split - in exactly the same way as it split in 1922. It is a repeating circle every time republicanism hits the brick wall of cross-class collaboration coupled with individual terror.


Republicanism is in no way in line with the kind of nationalism that the left seek to oppose.
The left-wing aspirations and rhetoric of republicans can be lauded - however - when push comes to shove nationalism will always take precedent over socialism. Some left wing elements may split from republicanism (e.g. Eirigi recently and the IRSP in the 1970's) but unless they reject nationalism and the tactics of individual terror they are destined to go down exactly the same road again. Republicanism never learns from its mistakes.



Where is all this nationalist sectarian stuff coming out? In your imagination is it?
Whether you like it or not , sectarianism is not a one way street travelling from the Protestant community to the Catholic community. Sectarianism exists in both communities. It is certainly manifest to a far greater extent among loyalists - however - that does not mean that the Catholic community are immune and that Catholics (or republicans) do not engage in sectarianism - either in words or deeds.


Socialist republicanism has learned huge lessons from the past 30 years. You may notice that the IRSP and Eirigi do not support armed struggle.
At the moment - both groups have not rejected paramilitarism as a strategy - they have rejected it as a strategy at this moment in time.

At a certain point in time (without the building of a mass socialist party) it is inevitable that full-scale sectarian conflict will explode back onto the streets of the North. The GFA and the strategy of SF was/is/and is always going to be nothing more that a stop-gap in the conflict. At a certain point in time the sectarian tensions that exist bubbling under the surface (as demonstrated by recent conflict on the interfaces) will explode on a scale not seen since the 1970's or worse. When this happens both Eirigi and the ISRP will back-track on the issue of paramilitarism and present themselves as defenders of the Catholic community. History will repeat itself.


Left republicans are actually involved in cross community intiatives.
Give us some examples -


What are the CWI/SP at? Doing their best to alienate nationalists no doubt.
what are the Socialist Party/CWI doing?
1. Building the broad left in the trade union movement (where republicans have zero influence) to campaign for strike action against the Tory cuts being implemented by SF and the DUP
2. Campaigning against young people in oppostion to the 'Steps to Work' courses which forces young unemployed people onto mandatory courses.
3. Building the anti-water charges campaign
4. Campaigning against attempts by Sf and the DUP to ban public protests
5. Campaigning with gay rights activists against right-wing religious bigots
6. Campaigning against sectarianism and attempting to build cross-community initiatives to combat sectarianism.


As long as the SP seeks to equate republicanism and loyalism equally, then they are doomed to failure.
The Socialist Party does not, and never has, equated republicanism and loyalism. You will find far more commentary from Socialist Party members on the internet addressing republicanism for the simple reason that republicans (and many of them armchair cheerleaders at that) consistantly attack, distort and attempt to ridicule the Socialist Party/CWI for its refusal to support individual terror. We never see loyalists on left-wing forums - so you only see the opposition of the Socialist Party/CWI to the distortion of the CWI's position on the national question and its rejection of the false methods of republicanism.

Loyalism by its nature is a reactionary right-wing bigoted sectarian philosophy that is deeply embedded in the Protestant community. The Socialist Party reject all forms of loyalism and unionism as the tool of British Imperialism and the source of a significant majority of the sectarian conflict in the North. Such a philosophy is not confined to the North as it can be found in most neo-colonial countries, e.g. Sinihala chauvinism in Sri Lanka - and just as in the North, the USP/CWI in Sri Lanka fights chauvinism, while rejecting the mistaken tactics of Tamil seperatists.

Republicanism in general is left-wing in orientation, uses left-rhetoric and has a basis of origin in opposition to national oppression. The opposition of the Socialist Party to left republicanism is not to its stated aim of a socialist republic - but to the failed strategy, tctics and methodology it employs. Republicanism has failed and continues to fail - and continues to fail to learn the lessons of its mistakes. On several occasions throughout its history possibilities have existed where this false approach could have been rejected and replaced with a class based approach (the most striking example was the Republican congress in the 1930's which was scuppered by the Stalinists) - but to this point all such initiatives have eventually capitulated and returned to the false methods of the past.

[Crux]

Where is all this nationalist sectarian stuff coming out? In your imagination is it?
The claim that the SP is "left-Unionist" for one is inherently secterian, the oft repeated and ridicolous lie that the SP would be in favour of re-unting ireland with the kingdom of great brittain. Further more, and I doubt you are unaware of this, the nationalist position on "national unity first" is pretty much the position of every republican I've encountered, although sometimes it's merely a case of giving in to nationalist sentiements but many times it is just nationalism in itself.
Or indeed have a look at pretty much any thread where some of our resident republicans have engaged.

[Tim Finnegan]

Hey Tim, we can see your sig for ourselves. No need to point it out to us in every goddamn post.
I was just commenting, hardly issuing a manifesto. Untwist ya bloody bollocks.

[Wanted Man]

what are the Socialist Party/CWI doing?
1. Building the broad left in the trade union movement (where republicans have zero influence) to campaign for strike action against the Tory cuts being implemented by SF and the DUP
2. Campaigning against young people in oppostion to the 'Steps to Work' courses which forces young unemployed people onto mandatory courses.
3. Building the anti-water charges campaign
4. Campaigning against attempts by Sf and the DUP to ban public protests
5. Campaigning with gay rights activists against right-wing religious bigots
6. Campaigning against sectarianism and attempting to build cross-community initiatives to combat sectarianism.

Umm, yay? Basically the day-to-day work of a social-democratic party then. 1 and 3 don't even concretely mean anything. All socialist groups are constantly "building" something or another (mostly their dead and dying local groups, also known as BUILDING TEH VANGUARD PARTY!!11). And of course "campaigning" usually means milling around with boring leaflets. Again, every socialist group in the world does that, and not necessarily revolutionary ones either.

[IndependentCitizen]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/jul/16/east-timor-immigrants-fled-northern-ireland-violence

Bastards...

[Tim Finnegan]

Aw, Jeezo, there's tragic irony for you. :(

[Jolly Red Giant]

Umm, yay? Basically the day-to-day work of a social-democratic party then. 1 and 3 don't even concretely mean anything.
With all due respect - if you believe that building a left-wing activist base in the trade union movement with the objective of developing class consciousness and winning the workers in trade unions over to a revolutionary perspective doesn't even concretely mean anything then you have absolutely zero understanding of Marxism or its method.


And of course "campaigning" usually means milling around with boring leaflets. Again, every socialist group in the world does that, and not necessarily revolutionary ones either.
For many so-called 'left' groups that is the case - and primarily applies to the tiny sect left - in the context of the CWI it relates to going into working class communities and building activist organisations. Examples would be the 1 million member Anti-Poll Tax movement in the UK 20 years ago, the 25,000 strong anti-water charges campaign in Ireland in the mid-1990's and the 25,000 strong anti-bin tax campaign in Ireland a few years ago among many others, None of these involved 'milling around with boring leaflets' but necessitated organising working class people into a powerful movement to fight the attacks of the ruling class and building movements that can defeat these attacks and play a major role in the political defeat of two governments (in the case of the first two above).

[Hoggy_RS]

I'll get back to JRG's post hopefully this evening when i've more time.


The claim that the SP is "left-Unionist" for one is inherently secterian, the oft repeated and ridicolous lie that the SP would be in favour of re-unting ireland with the kingdom of great brittain. Further more, and I doubt you are unaware of this, the nationalist position on "national unity first" is pretty much the position of every republican I've encountered, although sometimes it's merely a case of giving in to nationalist sentiements but many times it is just nationalism in itself.
Or indeed have a look at pretty much any thread where some of our resident republicans have engaged.
Perhaps your left-unionism is expressed more in your tough views on nationalist/republicans and softer views on loyalists/unionists. I don't see any future in trying to attract one section of the working class by alienating another side. You can't simply expect those from the nationalist side to fall in behind ye. It is a fact that Irish nationalism and republicanism has always been a far more progressive idea that anything produced from the unionist side. In fact republicanism has been one of the most progressive ideologies in the history of Ireland (considering the IRSP were the first Irish political party to take a pro-choice position, campaign for equal rights for LGBT people etc).

I'm a republican who you are encountering and I can emphatically tell you that national unity first is not my position. The struggle for national liberation and socialism are interlinked, to achieve a socialist state there is a need for the end of imperialist intervention in Ireland but for there to be a truly free Ireland, there is a need to break the connection with capitalism.

[Jolly Red Giant]

Perhaps your left-unionism is expressed more in your tough views on nationalist/republicans and softer views on loyalists/unionists.
Please provide one single shred of evidence for this assertion - just one.


I don't see any future in trying to attract one section of the working class by alienating another side. You can't simply expect those from the nationalist side to fall in behind ye.
The Socialist Party is not interested in expecting the diehard republican to fall in behind us - indeed we do not want anyone to 'fall in behind us'. The Socialist Party is attempting to build a revolutionary party that can assist the working class in the overthrow of capitalism and imperialism.

The Socialist Party has consistantly outlined the fact that a mass movement to overthrow capitalism and end sectarianism cannot be built on the basis of republicanism - specificially because of the mistaken approach and strategy of republicans. The last time the republican movement had any real influence among working class Protestants was during the existance of the Republican Congress in the 1930's when the biggest branch of the RC was on the Shankill Road. This influence emerged initally as a result of a non-sectarian class based approach during the Belfast Food Riots in 1932 and disintegrated when republican and Stalinist elements pushed the republican rather than class agenda at the Republican Congress Conference in September 1934.


It is a fact that Irish nationalism and republicanism has always been a far more progressive idea that anything produced from the unionist side. In fact republicanism has been one of the most progressive ideologies in the history of Ireland (considering the IRSP were the first Irish political party to take a pro-choice position, campaign for equal rights for LGBT people etc).
Again not the issue - the issue is the fact that the approach, strategy and tactics of republicanism (all strands of it) have failed and will continue to fail - precisely because republicans are incapable of understanding the mistakes of the past and moving from a nationalist to a class approach.


I'm a republican who you are encountering and I can emphatically tell you that national unity first is not my position. The struggle for national liberation and socialism are interlinked, to achieve a socialist state there is a need for the end of imperialist intervention in Ireland but for there to be a truly free Ireland, there is a need to break the connection with capitalism.
Again - the question is 'how do you achieve such an objective?'

[IndependentCitizen]

My question is, without inter-religious unity, how would a united Eire be achieved? With the UVF showing it's still about, there'd be more blood spilt if the country was unified just like that...

If there was a inter-religious unified movement. Loyalists would easily be squeezed out and exposed. How would that happen if the two communities didn't engage in class analysis...?

[Soldier of life]

Don't get on the internet as often as I would like so don't post here too often anymore. Had a flick through this thread and to be honest, utterly indicative of the Socialist Party. Not only is republicanism 'reactionary' to some here, it is also comparable to British imperialism. Far lefties amuse me greatly. And the assertion by a poster that it is naive to think republicans have any interest in socialism, utter balls I'm afraid.

Did James Connolly, an Irish republican, have no interest in socialism? Did Seamus Costello, Bernadette McAliskey or Peadar O'Donnell have no interest in socialism? Complete and utter ignorance. There are different brands of republicanism. Yes there is 'traditionalist' forms, which have strong nationalist tendencies (which is still more progressive than the imperialist army they are fighting for jesus sake) and there are socialist republicans, who have always held that bourgeois republicans were committed only to national recreancy as they fell short of demanding the full liberation of the Irish working class through socialism.

We all want to unite the working class in Ireland. Every socialist does. However, that does not mean we must pander to loyalism when their murder gangs attack vulnerable communities. Sectarianism on both sides must be opposed, but when the UVF orchestrate mobs to attack innocent people in sectarian attacks, it should be called like it is outright, not fudged so as not to offend and to play 'arrah sure both sides are just as bad' card.

While the attacks were going on, SP members were urgently typing up leaflets for the city the next day. Meanwhile, IRSP members who are community activists in the strand, helped people defend their area from a sectarian pogrom.

[Soldier of life]

Again - the question is 'how do you achieve such an objective?'

In brief, by a mass movement of working people demanding their national and economic rights. The IRSP has since it's foundation believed that no particular sect in Ireland is capable of seeing this achieved on it's own. Hence why it is my personal belief that initiatives like the ULA, though in their embryonic stages, are a great advancement for the Irish left. That is, once it moves from being based around electoralism and towards a party which encompasses more than the two main trot sects on this island. About time the left put their ideological differences aside in the interests of their class. But I see little chance unfortunately in the SP agreeing to irps, sticks, eirigi, cpi et al having input.

[Jolly Red Giant]

Not only is republicanism 'reactionary' to some here, it is also comparable to British imperialism.
Pray tell - who equated republicanism with British imperialism?


Did James Connolly, an Irish republican,
James Connolly was a Marxist


Did Seamus Costello, Bernadette McAliskey or Peadar O'Donnell have no interest in socialism?
All three did - yet when push came to shove all three capitulated to republicanism (Costello to a lesser degree to the other two). It would have been interesting to see Constello's evolution as a revolutionary if he hadn't been murdered (in a feud) - would he have gravitated to Marxism instead of republicanism - who knows - unfortunately he didn't get the chance.


There are different brands of republicanism. Yes there is 'traditionalist' forms, which have strong nationalist tendencies (which is still more progressive than the imperialist army they are fighting for jesus sake) and there are socialist republicans, who have always held that bourgeois republicans were committed only to national recreancy as they fell short of demanding the full liberation of the Irish working class through socialism.
Of course there are different strands of republicanism - that is not the issue - the issue is that no matter what strand of republicanism you are part of, the inevitable consequence of putting republicanism ahead of socialism is (1) compromise with Imperialism or (2) engagement with sectarianism.


We all want to unite the working class in Ireland. Every socialist does. However, that does not mean we must pander to loyalism when their murder gangs attack vulnerable communities.
Of course not.


Sectarianism on both sides must be opposed, but when the UVF orchestrate mobs to attack innocent people in sectarian attacks, it should be called like it is outright, not fudged so as not to offend and to play 'arrah sure both sides are just as bad' card.
You are correct - and again -pray tell - who said 'arrah sure both sides are just as bad'?


While the attacks were going on, SP members were urgently typing up leaflets for the city the next day. Meanwhile, IRSP members who are community activists in the strand, helped people defend their area from a sectarian pogrom.
Let's be clear about something - sectarian tensions were rising before the UVF attack on the Short Strand - the previous weekend there had been sectarian attacks on both Catholic and Protestant homes in the area. The incident which gave the UVF the excuse (if they needed one) was a Protestant woman being hit by a brick thrown from the Short Strand.

Now I will ask you a few questions -
(1) Did the IRSP members who are community activists in the Strand help defend the Protestant homes that were the subject of sectarian attacks the previous weekend?
(2) Did they assist the Protestant woman who was hit by a brick?
(3) Did they support the shootings that took place during the UVF attacks on the Short Strand?
(4) Did the IRSP members take part in any of the attacks that took place against Protestant homes in the area?
(5) What are they now doing to prevent further sectarian attacks and build cross community links between the working class people on the Short Strand and the Protestant community on the Lower Newtownards Road and the wider area?


In brief, by a mass movement of working people
And how do you build this mass movement of working class people?


demanding their national and economic rights.
Not surprisingly you put 'national' rights first - pray tell how you intend to build a mass movement for 'national rights' when 1 million working class Protestants won't touch the IRSP and its mass movement for 'national rights' with the proverbial barge pole?