Class Struggle

[ZombieRothbard]

Often times when I read through threads on here, I will see very astute points brought up by some of the critics of marxian socialism. Many of these criticisms are met with rhetoric about class warfare. Some of my own criticisms have been criticized on the basis that I am ignoring the class struggle dynamic or some such. I was wondering if somebody would enlighten me on what class struggle is, and what modern day manifestations there are of it here in the United States. Thanks.

[JustMovement]

The idea is that society is broadly divided (with some exception) into two camps: the working class and the bourgeoisie, who are those who own the means of production. The interest of these two classes are antagonistic, the owners want to maximise their profits, and so want to pay their employees as little as possible, the working class want to recieve as large of a share of the profits as possible. The bourgeoisie are the class currently in power, they have the might of the state behind them to protect their property.
Class struggle is the struggle between the working class and the bourgeoisie, with each class pursuing its material interests. This manifests itself generally in strike action, where certain employees withold their labour for better wages, as a general strike where the working class strike collectively for certain political demands, or as a full scale revolution, where the working class (at least in one country) attempts to overthrow the bourgeoisie as the ruling class.

[Obs]

Often times when I read through threads on here, I will see very astute points brought up by some of the critics of marxian socialism. Many of these criticisms are met with rhetoric about class warfare. Some of my own criticisms have been criticized on the basis that I am ignoring the class struggle dynamic or some such. I was wondering if somebody would enlighten me on what class struggle is, and what modern day manifestations there are of it here in the United States. Thanks.

What do you even do for a living?

[Thirsty Crow]

...and what modern day manifestations there are of it here in the United States. Thanks.
I'm tired so this'll be brief:

Wisconsin. Legislature pushing anti-union bills, coupled with incessant anti-union action (e.g. propaganda in the form of videos shown to employees on evils of unionism) on the behalf of the capitalists (or, if you like, employers). Workers organized in a specific way fight back.

[Leftsolidarity]

Just read the Communist Manifesto. It isn't long and is a lot better than anyone just replying to this thread will do.

http://marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/index.htm

[Os Cangaceiros]

some people have a lot of stuff. other people don't have a lot of stuff. the latter group struggles against the former to attain more stuff.

[ZombieRothbard]

The idea is that society is broadly divided (with some exception) into two camps: the working class and the bourgeoisie, who are those who own the means of production. The interest of these two classes are antagonistic, the owners want to maximise their profits, and so want to pay their employees as little as possible, the working class want to recieve as large of a share of the profits as possible. The bourgeoisie are the class currently in power, they have the might of the state behind them to protect their property.
Class struggle is the struggle between the working class and the bourgeoisie, with each class pursuing its material interests. This manifests itself generally in strike action, where certain employees withold their labour for better wages, as a general strike where the working class strike collectively for certain political demands, or as a full scale revolution, where the working class (at least in one country) attempts to overthrow the bourgeoisie as the ruling class.

Isn't it true in many cases that members of the bourgeoisie have less wealth than members of the proletariat?

[ZombieRothbard]

What do you even do for a living?

I am not sure why you seem to have a particular aversion towards me. If you really must know what I do, I am a full time student and a part time stock clerk at a local grocery store.

[Os Cangaceiros]

But really, the concept of "class struggle" shouldn't be hard to imagine. Ever heard of Frederic Bastiat's "The Law"? He talks about "class struggle" in there, albeit not the same kind that Marxists refer to, and he's a very respected figure in the libertarian pantheon. Rothbard talked about it too, although his opposing classes were the state and everyone connected with it, and the people from whom the state was robbing & exploiting. Others such as the sociologist Franz Oppenheimer and later Albert Jay Nock would take a similar view of classes, from a libertarian perspective.

It really shouldn't be an alien concept from a libertarian standpoint.

[Leftsolidarity]

Isn't it true in many cases that members of the bourgeoisie have less wealth than members of the proletariat?

I can't think of a single one. Also, it is not exactly about money earned.

[ZombieRothbard]

But really, the concept of "class struggle" shouldn't be hard to imagine. Ever heard of Frederic Bastiat's "The Law"? He talks about "class struggle" in there, albeit not the same kind that Marxists refer to, and he's a very respected figure in the libertarian pantheon. Rothbard talked about it too, although his opposing classes were the state and everyone connected with it, and the people from whom the state was robbing & exploiting. Others such as the sociologist Franz Oppenheimer and later Albert Jay Nock would take a similar view of classes, from a libertarian perspective.

It really shouldn't be an alien concept from a libertarian standpoint.

I haven't read "The Law" yet, although my copy of the Bastiat Collection is in the mail as we speak, so I will read it as soon as it arrives. Thanks for pointing that out.

[RichardAWilson]

Marxian Socialism isn’t based as much on income differentials (I.e. Class struggle based on the rich and the workingman) as much as it was based on Alienation. By controlling the means of production and distribution: The bourgeoisie will work to maximize earnings: Labor is commoditized.

Human beings become nothing more than pieces in a large productive machine.

With that said: Marx did know that wealth would centralize in fewer and fewer hands. The centralization of wealth and income has been the case where capitalism hasn’t been regulated. -

(America since 1978, Britain since Thatcher, Modern China, India) -

Even in Mainland Europe, wealth has been centralizing in fewer hands as Post-War Reforms are being abandoned nation by nation.

[RichardAWilson]

Duplicate.

[Thirsty Crow]

Isn't it true in many cases that members of the bourgeoisie have less wealth than members of the proletariat?
Not, that is not true in many cases.
On the other hand, maybe you were referring to the petite bourgeoisie - small business owners who are also forced to perform labour themselves. In some of these cases, the skilled working class, in specific sectors, does make more money than the small business owner, but that is not relevant to the Marxian concept of class, which is not based on income disparity, but rather on a groups' relation to the means of production - prolaterians, no matter how decent their wage, do not control their labour process, they do not control and own the means of production, they do not get to decide how these MoP will be used and to what end.

RichardAWilson has a point.

Also, I'm curious, how come you did not address my very concrete example?

[Jimmie Higgins]

Isn't it true in many cases that members of the bourgeoisie have less wealth than members of the proletariat?No. There may be many workers who make as much as professionals (part of the middle group, the petty-bourgeois) and there may be petty-bourgeois business owners who put their own wages back into their company and "exploit themselves" and run on a shoe-string. But the petty-bourgeois and small business does not have a major impact in the overall system as much as politicians in the US like to pander to the myths of small-business America.

But considering that the top 1% of wealth-holders in the US controls more than 40% of the wealth and the bottom 80% controls only 7% of the wealth, there is no way that "many" workers make more than the bourgeois - in fact 80%, while probably mostly workers, means that most workers, professionals, and small business people do not make more than the bourgeois... this is part of our argument for why worker-rule of society would also be better for the other non-ruling class classes.


I was wondering if somebody would enlighten me on what class struggle is, and what modern day manifestations there are of it here in the United States. Thanks. Well until very recently, the class struggle was mostly the ruling class warring on all of us.

Ok, I'll take a shot: the bourgoise and workers class struggle is because of the material and contradicting pressures on both sides of the struggle. The capitalists need to keep making profits, but there are many pressures (such as competition) that drive-down profits and since the only way to produce profits up is through exploiting workers (making new profit specifically, not making money off of something which can be done through redistribution like "buying low and selling high" on market fluctuation) there is a tendancy to want to increase the rate of exploitation (making people work faster at the same rate or make them produce the same but pay them less). It should be pretty obvious what the pressures are on workers to meet their needs - they do not want to work faster because it makes their life less livable and they want to make more money so they can pay rent or buy a house and so on.

There are so many exposed examples of class conflict right now that I don't even know where to begin. Speed-ups and wage and benefit cuts since the recession are the obvious example.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I am not sure why you seem to have a particular aversion towards me.M-Ls often have trouble with the concept of debate. ;)

But seriously, I think he probably just found it hard to believe that someone who works did not have at least an instinctual grasp of class conflict. My coworkers do although they wouldn't say it in so many words usually just an eye-roll at lunch and "...this fucking place" muttered when talking about issues at work.

[Rafiq]

Isn't it true in many cases that members of the bourgeoisie have less wealth than members of the proletariat?

Yes, that's true.

Class is not based on wealth or financial income. It's about thier relations to the means of production.

[Decolonize The Left]

Often times when I read through threads on here, I will see very astute points brought up by some of the critics of marxian socialism. Many of these criticisms are met with rhetoric about class warfare. Some of my own criticisms have been criticized on the basis that I am ignoring the class struggle dynamic or some such. I was wondering if somebody would enlighten me on what class struggle is, and what modern day manifestations there are of it here in the United States. Thanks.

Class struggle in a very small nutshell:

Materially speaking, there are two classes:
- The working class
- The capitalist class

What makes them different?
The capitalist class owns the means of production.
The working class owns their own labor.

Hence the working class labors for the capitalist class, producing all the goods and services in the economy. Make sense so far?
The are reimbursed for this labor with a wage which they then use to buy the goods/services they just made.

Why do they struggle?
They struggle because the capitalist class, according to the rules of capitalism, must make a profit off the working class. Hence the capitalist class must, in some way or another, steal value from the labor of the working class.

We want this stolen value back.

Get it?

- August

[Thirsty Crow]

The working class owns their own labor.

I'm risking to be perceived as a horrible nitpicker, but this is not accurate.

The capitalists own the labour of workers - labour objectified in commodities as value. Workers, on the other hand, only own their ability to work, or labour power which is a commodity like every other commodity bought and sold on the capitalist market (labour market).

[Blake's Baby]

Deleted as other people have made the same point.