prison abolition

[Nofuture]

There is not enough focus on the liberation of prisoners and the end to systems of imprisonment. In this context, I bring to your attention the ongoing clashes between Venezuelan Prisoners and the military/police forces of the state in that country. Would it not be the duty of any revolutionary to assist our brothers fighting for their own actual freedom in this struggle? They are fighting for a freedom that is not on intellectual, academic, theoretical or political grounds---but actual Freedom..do you know what this means? To be able to embrace the morning air? If we were able to mobilize the left, to fight the guards from the outside, as our brothers fight from the inside, what chance would the oppressors have to succeed? No chance, I would say. So if you are in Venezuela, and you can get to El Rodeo, do your part as a revolutionary to assist this struggle for real autonomy..

[MarxSchmarx]

One needs to broaden the critique beyond appealing to solidarity with people's supposed "struggles for actual freedom" (there are some reports that el Rodeo is in essence a gang war that the interior ministry became unable to manage, but that's anotehr story).

Basically prisons are a symptom of capitalist society and the modern nation state. It is an extremely logical consequence of the extreme atomization, alienation, and really the commodification of people, and the historical record fits this model very well. Unfortunately, I don't see an end to imprisonment whilst the current capitalist state of affairs persists.

[Zealot]

Dude wtf, I would not like to have murderers running around my neighborhood, this post is just wrong in so many ways.

[MarxSchmarx]

Dude wtf, I would not like to have murderers running around my neighborhood, this post is just wrong in so many ways.

I don't know where you are from, but in countries with large prison populations (the US, Brazil, Russia, Mexico) a majority of people in jail are imprisoned for non-violent offenses related to drugs, and an even larger fraction for basically "victimless crimes" more generally like public intoxication. Even in countries with comparatively smaller prison populations it is a tiny minority that are "doing time" for things like murder, arson, rape even burglary etc... And indeed in places where the death penalty is frequently used like China but for which numbers are unavailable I would suspect that murderers are a comparatively small fraction of the the executed.

Not that this means we should increase the death penalty to include say involuntary manslaughter. Only that you are misinformed (frankly at best) if you think that the "typical prisoner" in most countries today is a sociopathetic potential serial killer.

[-marx-]

True, the majority of prisons contain people for drug "offenses" (simply possession) and are not full of Richard Ramirez' or Ted Bundy's. However, what do you propose is done with the Ted Bundy's, Richard Ramirez', and John Wayne Gacy's etc? People who totally butcher people etc?

[Zealot]

I don't know where you are from, but in countries with large prison populations (the US, Brazil, Russia, Mexico) a majority of people in jail are imprisoned for non-violent offenses related to drugs, and an even larger fraction for basically "victimless crimes" more generally like public intoxication. Even in countries with comparatively smaller prison populations it is a tiny minority that are "doing time" for things like murder, arson, rape even burglary etc... And indeed in places where the death penalty is frequently used like China but for which numbers are unavailable I would suspect that murderers are a comparatively small fraction of the the executed.

Not that this means we should increase the death penalty to include say involuntary manslaughter. Only that you are misinformed (frankly at best) if you think that the "typical prisoner" in most countries today is a sociopathetic potential serial killer.
I realize that


True, the majority of prisons contain people for drug "offenses" (simply possession) and are not full of Richard Ramirez' or Ted Bundy's. However, what do you propose is done with the Ted Bundy's, Richard Ramirez', and John Wayne Gacy's etc? People who totally butcher people etc?

This is more what I meant.

[A.R.Amistad]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but actually don't people incarcerated for murder have some of the lowest recidivism rates in prison? Not trying to glorify murder, but not all people who commit homicide are serial killers in search of prey. That said, I think for a time prisons will be needed for extreme cases (such as the need to restrain serial killers, etc.) as long as the state exists , but of course that's where they differ from capitalist prisons.

Despite my hang ups on other things he wrote, I like Bukharin's little piece on "proletarian justice"

Prison's are an extremely new institution and are certainly not a necessity for a society to function.

[MarxSchmarx]

True, the majority of prisons contain people for drug "offenses" (simply possession) and are not full of Richard Ramirez' or Ted Bundy's. However, what do you propose is done with the Ted Bundy's, Richard Ramirez', and John Wayne Gacy's etc? People who totally butcher people etc?

Psychiatric hospitals.

[-marx-]

Many a serial killer has had psychiatric evaluations and found to be sane (although I believe too many are found "sane" when they in fact were not) so I don't think psychiatric hospitals are the answer in all cases. The fact is, some people just like killing and there is zero aberration in the mind. They do it because they enjoy it, it really is that simple.

I really don't see how it is possible to abolish all forms of incarceration 100%. People aren't just going to stop committing crimes because the country is socialist. If you can tell me more, please do. This is something I haven't looked into a lot.

[Decolonize The Left]

Many a serial killer has had psychiatric evaluations and found to be sane (although I believe too many are found "sane" when they in fact were not) so I don't think psychiatric hospitals are the answer in all cases. The fact is, some people just like killing and there is zero aberration in the mind. They do it because they enjoy it, it really is that simple.

I really don't see how it is possible to abolish all forms of incarceration 100%. People aren't just going to stop commiting crimes because the country is socialist.

Your analysis is really only half of what it could be.

The first thing you neglect is what is a crime? A crime is an unlawful act perpetrated by an individual, so naturally the next question is, who makes the laws and who is considered an individual?
These are obviously much larger questions than the one of 'what to do with killers, blah blah blah.'

The second issue only arises after the first is concluded - and that is what to do with people who go against the social norms established by a given community? The answer is, of course, up to the community.

- August

[-marx-]

Yes, I realize that, about 'what is a crime?' and 'who makes the laws' etc.

Many pre-existing laws are bullshit and have no founding in logic and are highly discriminatory. However, unless we make a fairy tale land where everyone is accepted no matter what they do (which is just that, a fairy tale) there will need to be laws against certain acts to protect people because humans have committed acts on others that really shouldn't happen for as long as we have existed. Socialism in and of it self will never stop this. I can however see a socialist system in and of it self preventing literally thousands of "crimes" because the "crime" would cease to be a crime and there would be no need to do it anyways. I'm not referring to menial property theft/damage, what I am more interested in is acts of violence towards men, women and children and the prevention of it.

[MarxSchmarx]

Many a serial killer has had psychiatric evaluations and found to be sane (although I believe too many are found "sane" when they in fact were not) so I don't think psychiatric hospitals are the answer in all cases. The fact is, some people just like killing and there is zero aberration in the mind. They do it because they enjoy it, it really is that simple.

I really don't see how it is possible to abolish all forms of incarceration 100%. People aren't just going to stop committing crimes because the country is socialist. If you can tell me more, please do. This is something I haven't looked into a lot.

I must say I rather find it more likely that the psychiatric evaluations you mention were either quite flawed (psychology and psychiatry esp. in the 50s through the 70s even the 80s was a very discipline) or that they reflect the imperfection of the science (which can be improved) rather than that serials killers kill people "simply because they enjoy it".

In any case psychiatry now defines such extreme lack of empathy and impulse control to be a treatable pathology, and asserting it's "that simple" is not a materialist explanation.

But the bigger issue isn't really whether people who pose an immediate physical threat to others should be allowed to carry on. If by incarceration you merely mean that the most extremely dangerous, unmanageable and mentally sick people are somehow managed by society (including potential segregation of those individuals) and some degree of deprivation of liberty occurs then sure, it's unlikely to go away.

When we conflate the view of incarceration as institutions for ensuring public safety and as a venue for retribution and deterrence (at best) , then for every psychotic murderer you toss in jail, you will also be incarcerating many more people who simply made bad mistakes but don't pose a threat to anyone anymore.

Only by disentangling the need for public safety from the emotional demands for punishment can we begin to speak about how to handle dangerous criminals in a free society. When we begin to focus on the threat they pose to everyone else, and when the emotional demands are put aside, these psychopaths resemble people infected with a highly contagious disease that need to be quarantined. How we as a society treat such people should operate on a whole different level than say a woman who killed her abusive husband or a teenage gangbanger who thought he was only enforcing some idiotic code of conduct. As soon as punishment is put on an equal pedestal with public safety, the distinction gets blurred and issues of culpability become needlessly muddled to satisfy what amounts to bloodlust.

[Belevedere]

It's my opinion that Most criminals guilty of lower level crime would be better served in forced military service. Especially young offenders.
The Military is the most efficient way of reforming character.

That said, there will always be a need for incarceration if only to protect society from dangerous individuals.