Opinion and Toughts EUropean Union

[Valdemar]

Hi, felow Commrades and other pseudo-RevLefters (more about that in some other thread)

We can all see, on the Televizion and Radios and other Media about Eurozone crisis and debates about Euro (Collaps) with Connection with PIGS countries.

So what is your tought about European Union ?
1. Is it Imeaprialist Cartel (like Karl said) and therfore we shuld look and cheer for its collapse (to give space for new bulding), (not support)
2. Its something bad, but we must preserve it and reconstructing it (if possible) making Socialist-Communist political-economical entity
or
3. It is Socialist and it is defending working class, it gives us freedom and it is one step away from Communism (suport)

I hope that i didn't offended any admin this time, i realy don't want to take time to make sec. Account... I just want constructive debates and opinions to synchronize
btw: do you like my new-first avatar ?:hammersickle:
oh
And
Please replay with constructive replay, if you do not have anything smart to write, please go troll elsewhere... :glare:
(Please Rep or DeRep me if you like or dislike my post) :)
Valdemar

[Valdemar]

Hey RevLefts, why ignoring post ? i'm realy keen to hear your position on it...
bump

[ComradeMan]

It could be good- but usually ends up bad.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

It could be good- but usually ends up bad.

If by that you mean that some coöperation could be good, that is definitely true.

The European Union was from the onset a corrupt and reprehensible collection of capitalists in collusion against the working classes, and is, in every fragment of its organisation and structure, irredeemable.

[Belevedere]

If by that you mean that some coöperation could be good, that is definitely true.

The European Union was from the onset a corrupt and reprehensible collection of capitalists in collusion against the working classes, and is, in every fragment of its organisation and structure, irredeemable.

I'd agree with that.

Any person living in a country under the EU's mandate has an obligation to fight, through democratic and if necessary forceful means, to restore their countries Independence.

[Old Mole]

As a communist I am against the neo-liberal bureaucracy of the EU, but on the other hand the European Nationalist Ant-EU pigsty smells even worse. In the end the ruling class of my country is the same as for the whole of Europe, so does it matter what they call themselves?

[Belevedere]

As a communist I am against the neo-liberal bureaucracy of the EU, but on the other hand the European Nationalist Ant-EU pigsty smells even worse. In the end the ruling class of my country is the same as for the whole of Europe, so does it matter what they call themselves?

The EU is fundamentally undemocratic. The EU parliament is merely an advisory body with no law making powers, and little if any power to stop the law making of the unelected commissioners.

I will support any British party that Promises to remove us from the EU, within reason.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

The EU is fundamentally undemocratic. The EU parliament is merely an advisory body with no law making powers, and little if any power to stop the law making of the unelected commissioners.

I will support any British party that Promises to remove us from the EU, within reason.

Even UKIP and BNP?

[Blake's Baby]

The EU is fundamentally undemocratic...

And as we all know the British system of forming governments is totally democratic.

"Which school did you go to? Oh that's marvellous... tell you what, here's 2 million quid and a safe first-past-the-post consituency, never mind if we don't get a majority, I'm sure we can cobble together a coalition no-one voted for..."

Yup. I'm totally fighting for that system.

[RichardAWilson]

The European Union was not a regressive institution from the beginning. Some of the founders and original thinkers that worked toward the E.U. were Liberals, Reformers and Socialists.

However: You’re correct that bourgeois influence has hijacked a noble ambition.

I believe the E.U. will have to be reformed from within. Europe must move toward Socialism before the E.U. can move toward Socialism. The German and French bourgeoisie has too much power.

[Valdemar]

If by that you mean that some coöperation could be good, that is definitely true.

The European Union was from the onset a corrupt and reprehensible collection of capitalists in collusion against the working classes, and is, in every fragment of its organisation and structure, irredeemable.

I wanted to write my opinion, but you said everything :( :) I totally agree, *wishpering* to tell you the truth i was expecting that someone will defend it, but there is still time...
So far (so good) we all agree that EU is Capitalist and Undemocratic union...


The EU is fundamentally undemocratic. The EU parliament is merely an advisory body with no law making powers, and little if any power to stop the law making of the unelected commissioners.

I will support any British party that Promises to remove us from the EU, within reason.

I understand what you mean, basically "enemy of my enemy--is my temporary ally", but don't you think EU can be great tool in Socialist-Communist hand ? As far i know, and as far i can see they are building European nation (everything is full, Eu heritage, eu culuture, eu music, eu nation even,) And in some way abolishing current nations, so if you look it more closely or from different perspective, it serves our International path...ironic but capitalists with their Eu are serving currently our goal....

offtopic: Takayuki your avatar (?) looks...lets say scary...in cool way ;) :blushing: I hope I don't get "sexist" infraction again or something :unsure:...your fault ;) :tongue_smilie:

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

I wanted to write my opinion, but you said everything :( :) I totally agree, *wishpering* to tell you the truth i was expecting that someone will defend it, but there is still time...
So far (so good) we all agree that EU is Capitalist and Undemocratic union...



I understand what you mean, basically "enemy of my enemy--is my temporary ally", but don't you think EU can be great tool in Socialist-Communist hand ? As far i know, and as far i can see they are building European nation (everything is full, Eu heritage, eu culuture, eu music, eu nation even,) And in some way abolishing current nations, so if you look it more closely or from different perspective, it serves our International path...ironic but capitalists with their Eu are serving currently our goal....

Except, there is nothing internationalist about the European Union. It of course clashes with nationalism of the constituent nations by being a supra-national organ of capitalist coöperation, but at the same time, what it seeks to develop in "European culture" is not internationalism or solidarity, but a multi-national patriotism, somehow seeking intentionally to replicate something more long the lines of the United States; internal sameness, but at the same time, increased hostility to that which is outside of this union, for this is politically convenient.

They thus do not serve our goal, they serve their own goals: by coöperating in the manner they do, it strengthens their rule and the political machine by which they enforce their rule. As time flies, I foresee that the European Union will begin to become less and less dependent on the executive force of the European Commission and integrate the corrupt parliament into a more important body, primarily for reasons of propaganda.

In a post-revolution world of ideals, there'd naturally be international bodies of coöperation and exchanges for progressive purposes, but the structures that exist now are not in any shape or form desirable (but coöperative bodies are not inherently bad because they are such, is my point). The European Union is simply the conglomerated(ing, if you will, as it is still in metamorphosis) form of the nation states out of which it formed; just like the United Nations must be dismantled, like the World Bank, NAFTA, ASEAN, BRIC, IMF, so on, so forth.


offtopic: Takayuki your avatar (?) looks...lets say scary...in cool way ;) :blushing: I hope I don't get "sexist" infraction again or something :unsure:...your fault ;):tongue_smilie:

Is saying a man is scary in a cool way a sexist thing to say?

(What you said in that thread that got you restricted really sounded horribly sexist, on the other hand.)

[Valdemar]

Except, there is nothing internationalist about the European Union. It of course clashes with nationalism of the constituent nations by being a supra-national organ of capitalist coöperation, but at the same time, what it seeks to develop in "European culture" is not internationalism or solidarity, but a multi-national patriotism, somehow seeking intentionally to replicate something more long the lines of the United States; internal sameness, but at the same time, increased hostility to that which is outside of this union, for this is politically convenient.

Maybe you don't see it, but I really do see traces of Internationalism. We all agree that they are seeking to develop European Culture, European Identity and side product is European Nationalism (and it clashes with current nation-nationalism), which is not in our internationalist interest in some way. But if you look at things more closely, currently there are 27 nations which have their own basis of nationalism, somewhere more strong influence somewhere less. So from 27 nations, they are building one single nation with its side effect, nationalism, which will be used for Capitalist goals.
So, European Union has its side effect, it clashes with nationalism of constituent nation, European is rejecting individual nationalism and building European one, people are forced due mass media brainwashing to abandon individual nationalism are also unable to accept European Nationalism, and therefore they are becoming to believe that nationalism is destructive and necessary and thus becoming Internationalist, with leftovers of nationalism of in their mind.

Also, if you imagine one day it would be created North American Union and SouthAmerican and Asian and African and Middle Eastern, world would be without quite of nationalist and new would be created, but imagine then Euro-Asian Union and new identity, EuroAsian or American as product of merging NorthAmerican and South American... By small steps

In current situation, where economy is getting worse in EU, and people are losing its EU conscious and maybe even internationalism. There are still leftovers of nationalism in their mind, which they go back to it due economy crisis, therefore in my opinion Right Wing parties are winning at elections.



They thus do not serve our goal, they serve their own goals: by coöperating in the manner they do, it strengthens their rule and the political machine by which they enforce their rule. As time flies, I foresee that the European Union will begin to become less and less dependent on the executive force of the European Commission and integrate the corrupt parliament into a more important body, primarily for reasons of propaganda.

Well i could do something which will benefit me, but as side effect it could benefit someone else too... Just one silly picture, I'm searching for a treasure! I dig hole, see that there is indeed treasure and take it out, or i find nothing, guy comes by who wanted to make pond but it didn't have right tools to do so, so basically i helped him out, even if it was not in my interest.

I don't believe European Commission (capitalist in the background) will give power to »corrupt« parliament primarily for reasons of propaganda. Today only few citizens of European Union do realize that true power is European Commission, and that Parliament is just a lie-hassle, they are deliberate kept ignorant and therefore Capitalist will not give power to parliament members, who are elected by the people for the purpose of propaganda. It makes no sense.



In a post-revolution world of ideals, there'd naturally be international bodies of coöperation and exchanges for progressive purposes, but the structures that exist now are not in any shape or form desirable (but coöperative bodies are not inherently bad because they are such, is my point). The European Union is simply the conglomerated(ing, if you will, as it is still in metamorphosis) form of the nation states out of which it formed; just like the United Nations must be dismantled, like the World Bank, NAFTA, ASEAN, BRIC, IMF, so on, so forth.

You puzzled me here, in my opinion after revolution comes socialism, which is transitional period, and then final goal, Communism. So after revolution, it is impossible to make right away Communism, its too fragile and it is doomed to collapse. Its still in infant years and Capitalist will try to get power back, and it will use all necessary means to get them back. Of course revolution will not happen in all countries on same day and it will not end on same day either, therefore some countries will be socialist before others, and countries still ruled by Capitalist will use all necessary tools to fight revolution and contain and destroy it.
If you think »post revolution world« as world after whole world went through revolution and some period of Socialism, then i agree with you, in that society current Organization bodies would be obsolete.

But that is long long time to go... Question is, if those organization can be hijacked-used as tool or just used to play our cards which would bring us closer to our goals of world revolution ?



Is saying a man is scary in a cool way a sexist thing to say?


I'll answer that in private message...



(What you said in that thread that got you restricted really sounded horribly sexist, on the other hand.)

I don't believe that was sexist, I just told that kid, with a bit of sarcasm that he should not fight with his parents, let them win one small battle for sake of positional victory. It was wise suggestions, spiced with some sarcastic and troll sentences.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

Maybe you don't see it, but I really do see traces of Internationalism. We all agree that they are seeking to develop European Culture, European Identity and side product is European Nationalism (and it clashes with current nation-nationalism), which is not in our internationalist interest in some way. But if you look at things more closely, currently there are 27 nations which have their own basis of nationalism, somewhere more strong influence somewhere less. So from 27 nations, they are building one single nation with its side effect, nationalism, which will be used for Capitalist goals.
So, European Union has its side effect, it clashes with nationalism of constituent nation, European is rejecting individual nationalism and building European one, people are forced due mass media brainwashing to abandon individual nationalism are also unable to accept European Nationalism, and therefore they are becoming to believe that nationalism is destructive and necessary and thus becoming Internationalist, with leftovers of nationalism of in their mind.

Also, if you imagine one day it would be created North American Union and SouthAmerican and Asian and African and Middle Eastern, world would be without quite of nationalist and new would be created, but imagine then Euro-Asian Union and new identity, EuroAsian or American as product of merging NorthAmerican and South American... By small steps

In current situation, where economy is getting worse in EU, and people are losing its EU conscious and maybe even internationalism. There are still leftovers of nationalism in their mind, which they go back to it due economy crisis, therefore in my opinion Right Wing parties are winning at elections.

Well i could do something which will benefit me, but as side effect it could benefit someone else too... Just one silly picture, I'm searching for a treasure! I dig hole, see that there is indeed treasure and take it out, or i find nothing, guy comes by who wanted to make pond but it didn't have right tools to do so, so basically i helped him out, even if it was not in my interest.

I don't believe European Commission (capitalist in the background) will give power to »corrupt« parliament primarily for reasons of propaganda. Today only few citizens of European Union do realize that true power is European Commission, and that Parliament is just a lie-hassle, they are deliberate kept ignorant and therefore Capitalist will not give power to parliament members, who are elected by the people for the purpose of propaganda. It makes no sense.

Such a merger is indeed not impossible in the far-off future, but at the same time it would not be truly internationalist, it would simply be a reinforcement of the sort of international capitalist governance that goes on even today, after all, capitalism has no borders.

The reason that they would transfer power to the European parliament is simple: it looks better and will make people think that a - in the words of the corrupt officials - 'democratising process' is taking place. Although the profoundly autocratic rule of the Commission is advantageous at times - particularly when disciplining offending nations, like Greece right now - it also has a lot of PR problems that affect the efficiency of its rule, and for this reason it is possible that somewhere in the future the Parliament indeed be granted more influence and the commission curtailed if not entirely abolished. To the ruling class this will make little difference apart from the effort required to manipulate, but this can be a worthwhile investment if it increases the popular acceptance of the rulings. Make no mistake, the Parliament is as rotten and autocratic as the commission, a world where like the U.S. senate the lobbyists and power-players reign supreme.


You puzzled me here, in my opinion after revolution comes socialism, which is transitional period, and then final goal, Communism. So after revolution, it is impossible to make right away Communism, its too fragile and it is doomed to collapse. Its still in infant years and Capitalist will try to get power back, and it will use all necessary means to get them back. Of course revolution will not happen in all countries on same day and it will not end on same day either, therefore some countries will be socialist before others, and countries still ruled by Capitalist will use all necessary tools to fight revolution and contain and destroy it.
If you think »post revolution world« as world after whole world went through revolution and some period of Socialism, then i agree with you, in that society current Organization bodies would be obsolete.

But that is long long time to go... Question is, if those organization can be hijacked-used as tool or just used to play our cards which would bring us closer to our goals of world revolution ?


I don't think there's much if any chance for a hijacking of the current European Union. I added the 'world of ideals' to emphasise that it would not be immediately after the revolution, but even immediately afterwards, it is indeed desirable that there'd be some international coöperative organisation of socialist nature - but the most important point here is, that the European Union is such a bad system and such a through-and-through capitalist entity, that it serves no point keeping it; it is far easier to destroy it and create something anew, than reform that monstrous thing from the inside.

[CommieTroll]

2. Its something bad, but we must preserve it and reconstructing it (if possible) making Socialist-Communist political-economical entity

I'd go for No.2, with things like the Lisbon Treaty and how the economic crises is handled especially in my country I care little about its existence but I will say that because of Ireland joining EU it has greatly improved Ireland's economy and Infrastructure

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

I'd go for No.2, with things like the Lisbon Treaty and how the economic crises is handled especially in my country I care little about its existence but I will say that because of Ireland joining EU it has greatly improved Ireland's economy and Infrastructure

That's just the effect of the regional stabilisation attempts, which is simply regional Keynesianism, although it disproportionately go to private- and semi-private entities (that's why Ireland's full of toll roads now) and as such becomes more like "corporate welfare".

[Crux]

The European Union was not a regressive institution from the beginning. Some of the founders and original thinkers that worked toward the E.U. were Liberals, Reformers and Socialists.

However: You’re correct that bourgeois influence has hijacked a noble ambition.

I believe the E.U. will have to be reformed from within. Europe must move toward Socialism before the E.U. can move toward Socialism. The German and French bourgeoisie has too much power.
AFAIK the EU has it's origin in the Coal and Steel Union, which very much was an economic arrangement for bourgeois.

[unpopularfreedomfront]

The EU is an undemocratic institution. It attempts to create a new order yet it is exactly the same as the existing order under a new guise. Here in Ireland we voted in 2008 to reject the Lisbon Treaty (basically the new EU Constitution) Prior to the Irish rejecting the treaty the EU Parliament passed a resolution saying it would not respect the democratic decision of the Irish electorate, that it would not respect the democratic right of the Irish people to reject the Treaty. This is what the EU has become. Having rejected that treaty our government in effect invalidated the result and made us vote again on the very same treaty with not one word, not one comma changed in it. Then the government and EU engaged in a blitzkreig attack through almost every media outlet putting the fear of god into people that if they voted no again there would be serious negative consequences, people were cajouled, bullied, basically forced into voting yes. The sheeple voted yes. Ths is democracy Irish style, this is democracy EU style. So fuck the EU.

[Per Levy]

this quote by rosa luxemburg i find pretty fitting:


Every time that bourgeois politicians have championed the idea of Europeanism, of the union of European States, it has been with an open or concealed point directed against the “yellow peril,” the “dark continent,” against the “inferior races,” in short, it has always been an imperialist abortion.

http://www.marxists.org/archive/luxemburg/1911/05/11.htm

[NGNM85]

I think, to some extent, the integration that is happening in Europe, and it's analogues in Latin America, the Middle East, and Africa, are positive. In some ways it represents a movement beyond the primitive tribal impulse of nationalism.