Flag Burning

[craigd89]

Does anyone else think its counterproductive and STUPID for leftists to be burning American flags at protests.

[Triple A]

My rational side says that burning flags in public events (if they do that) scares the american public away.

My other side:

x4ZDASXwwuI

[Dimitri Molotov]

I like flag burning and I support it. My first reason, which I suppose could be considered counter-productive, is that it offends allot of patriotic conservatives, and I just tend to like things in society that offend other people. I don't think any of us should have a right to not be offended, that is just a part of living in a society with other people, and you are going to get offended regardless. Things like burning flags, hanging crosses upside down, douchebags who talk to loud in public on their phones, morons who say things like "that movie was over-rated" just because everyone else liked it, screaming crying toddlers and infants, or those kids with about 20 piercings in their face who just can't seem to put their middle fingers down tend to make me a little happy on the inside, just because of the controversy they cause and how much it either insults the general public or just tends to annoy them. I think these kind of offensive or obnoxious nuisances keep living in a society interesting and it keeps me from getting bored.

The second and more important reason I support flag burning is because I believe flags divide us as a whole. I think it impedes the progress of the class struggle by dividing us further, beyond classes, into different categories we fight about that don't and shouldn't matter, such as race, which country you are from, etc. When you bring flags into play, it just increases the sense of competition between countries when we should be uniting against our real enemies. I think burning the flag, as a symbolic meaning, shows that we are willing to tear down the wall of patriotism for our race or country and work for a better human race as a whole. Without these things to divide us, we can more effectively unite. :) :star:

PS Anti-Flag is an amazing band

[Ocean Seal]

Flag burning is indeed a counter-productive activity. I don't think that many leftists do it while thinking rationally. But of course it is very understandable. The flag represents both nationalism and imperialism which are things that leftists oppose and moreover the flag represents much more tangible events in our lives.

It does not only represent imperialism but it represents all the Afghani's, Iraqi's, and Libyan's who died because of imperialism.
It does not only represent nationalism, but it also represents all the people who have been discriminated against because of their national origin, all the people who have been deported, all the people who have been killed because they had to be smuggled in, and all of the people who have been killed because of nationalistic violence, all of the people who can't live in peace because of these nationalists.

It's understandable to hate the flag. But burning it won't solve anything as much as we would like it to. It'll hurt our movement and give the nationalist bigots a rallying cry.

[Dimitri Molotov]

Flag burning is indeed a counter-productive activity. I don't think that many leftists do it while thinking rationally. But of course it is very understandable. The flag represents both nationalism and imperialism which are things that leftists oppose and moreover the flag represents much more tangible events in our lives.

It does not only represent imperialism but it represents all the Afghani's, Iraqi's, and Libyan's who died because of imperialism.
It does not only represent nationalism, but it also represents all the people who have been discriminated against because of their national origin, all the people who have been deported, all the people who have been killed because they had to be smuggled in, and all of the people who have been killed because of nationalistic violence, all of the people who can't live in peace because of these nationalists.

It's understandable to hate the flag. But burning it won't solve anything as much as we would like it to. It'll hurt our movement and give the nationalist bigots a rallying cry.

I agree with you exactly on what the flag represents. I also agree with you saying that burning it won't solve anything, but I wouldn't call it counterproductive, although I could see why other's would. It doesn't solve anything, but it is a very good attention-getter because of how controversial it is. The question is, is it the kind of attention we want? I think that even though it does give the nationalist bigots a rallying cry, people like that are going to try to rally against us for something else if we stopped the flag burning. Bigots are going to be bigots, flag burning or not. They will just find something else to complain about. So the way I see it, flag burning could be counter productive in the sense that the physical action of burning it doesn't actually solve the problem, but it is the meaning and reasoning behind it that matters. I think even though it is a little counter productive in some ways, it isn't enough to have any real effect, and plus flag burning can be quite the moral booster at riots. :cool: And in the end, the type of people who are going to get all offended at flag burning and not want to join us are the kind of people who wouldn't want to join us anyway. There's plenty of other counter-productive or stupid things we do and plenty of other things we do that bigots can complain about that I don't think flag burning is too big of an issue.

[freya4]

Flag burning is indeed a useless and counterproductive exercise. It serves no purpose except allowing the flag burner to let out their temporary rage. I think these sort of extreme and pointless actions tend to drive people further away from our cause. Instead of resorting to immature flag burning and name calling that make leftists look irrational and unstable, we should appeal to people's common sense by encouraging them to actually think for themselves, and provide logical arguments that they can understand and relate to. Chances are, no sensible person is going to want to listen to you if you're screaming at them and burning stuff.

[Dimitri Molotov]

Chances are, no sensible person is going to want to listen to you if you're screaming at them and burning stuff.

Aren't all the sensible people already on our side? :p Like I said before, all of the people who are going to be against us for flag burning are probably going to be against us for other patriotic reasons anyway. But then again I am probably wrong, I actually kind of agree with you. I don't think it is that big of an issue, but I bet if we stopped flag burning and instead we taught about how Communism would actually be good for America instead of making it look like we are destroying it, we could convince some left leaning patriots to join our ranks. Then we would have people flying around American flags with hammer and sickles and shit all over them. That actually sounds kind of cool and much more effective and more likely to gain support rather than burning it.

But my personal tendency is Anarcho-Communist, and my personal hatred for the flag and patriotic things in general might make me uncomfortable with that idea. I would be afraid Communism would become too nationalistic and Patriotic. But then again I would much rather have Communist patriots than the Neo-Fascist patriots we have now, I would have much more in common then. I don't know, thank you for requiring me to think about this to answer, I now see this is an opinion of mine I need to think of more deeply. :)

[Mettalian]

Flag burning can be a powerful, symbolic gesture, at the same time, many 'patriots' and the right will see it as a violent one. But, then again, who ever fought a revolution trying to appease the right?

[Dimitri Molotov]

Flag burning can be a powerful, symbolic gesture, at the same time, many 'patriots' and the right will see it as a violent one. But, then again, who ever fought a revolution trying to appease the right?

You pretty much just said what I was trying to get across but without rambling nonsensically for paragraphs on end. :laugh:

[The Man]

The reactionaries see it as a threat; and it is. "Let the bourgeoisie tremble at the sight of a Communist Revolution" - Karl Marx

[∞]

No, I just think its pointless.

[Tablo]

I think it is fun.

[Cleansing Conspiratorial Revolutionary Flame]

The desecration of Bourgeois Imperialist Flags is an act that represents the destruction of Bourgeois Society and is to be accepted and welcomed.

[Dimitri Molotov]

After rethinking the topic I have decided to keep my original position Along with Triple A. . .

x4ZDASXwwuI

I the only people we are deterring from the far left are the neo-conservatives and blind patriots, people we don't want and don't need. If they are smart enough to help the cause, they will be smart enough to find it. If a burning flag scares them away how are they going to feel when the flag is burning them?

[Pretty Flaco]

Flag burning can be a powerful, symbolic gesture, at the same time, many 'patriots' and the right will see it as a violent one. But, then again, who ever fought a revolution trying to appease the right?

It doesn't just alarm the right, it can alarm people who may have not had a formulated opinion and it could turn them against you.

[Mettalian]

It doesn't just alarm the right, it can alarm people who may have not had a formulated opinion and it could turn them against you.

That's true. It's a bit of a grey area. When the revolution really gains momentum, however, I believe it's use would be wonderful. Let the capitalists know that we are coming. In the meantime, it could either be the gesture that rallies the masses, or the one that turns them away.

[∞]

Yueah commi3 pow3r!

PL4A53EAE94E778985

Heres some totally awesome comments:


America is a nazi country. Fuck them all!


Fuck the usa, not all of them, some are racist as a mofo.


Russia stopped Hitler not you you fucking retarded american pigs. Oops, I just offended pigs and retarded people by associating them with americans.



me and my friend is british im british of lebanese decent my friend is british of japanese and korean decent and we hate americans.


osama aint mexican


Stupid americans

[tachosomoza]

I use the USA flag to wipe my ass. I've got the Rebel flag cut up into napkins.

[craigd89]

I think flag burning is stupid and scares joe schmo away. The goal should be to attract working people, not making them turn away because he sees some scrawny vegan in all black burning an american flag.

[CynicalIdealist]

It would probably feel good, and when we have the collective consciousness to dissolve nation states and rebel against their existence, it seems appropriate enough.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Depends on the context I suppose - in some protest where people are trying to set themselves apart and prove how radical they are by burning an American flag, then it's pointless and might just make the people doing it look marginal. If people are all generally really pissed and the crowd is in the right angry mood, then burning a flag would be understandable as a symbol of that anger.

At a fourth of July BBQ for radicals, soaking an American flag in charcol fluid and burning it is just a fun ice-breaker like a pinata or pin the tail on the donkey at kids parties.

[RedSonRising]

Burning the flag for revolutionaries signifies something completely different than it does for the vast majority of the population. While many of us may feel alienated and stigmatized by the society and structures of power the flag represents, others see it as a cultural symbol and a representation of positive political ideas. However much we may disagree with the culture or the majority's uneducated belief in this country's application of progressive ideals, burning it is simply preaching to the choir and hurting our own chances at rationally convincing people that alternatives to capitalism and bourgeois democracy are positive goals. Don't get me wrong, we can't dumb down and de-radicalize our positions in hopes of winning people over to a safe consumer-friendly idea of socialism, but performing an act that makes us look like enemies of every single aspect of the national culture is counter-productive for the movement. The US, the working people in it, the awesome music, good food, wonderful places, and culture it has produced exist alongside all that oppression we'd like to burn away.

[Klaatu]

Just how many people are actually burning American flags here? Not too many. That's because it's legal.
Now if the Reich-Wingers get their way and outlaw flag burning, then many more people will be doing it!

[Klaatu]

I think American Socialists should be displaying and waving the flag, seeing as though we are the true Americans.
It is we that believe in freedom, truth, and justice. More so than the crooked and corrupt Reich Wingers claim to!

[Susurrus]

Just wave a flag with the hammer and sickle in place of the stars! :D I believe someone had a thread in Graphics about it.

[Rusty Shackleford]

i dont care.