The Failure of Marxism

[CrimsonCommunist]

Today, on the anniversary of the death of Che Guevara I finalised my decision to convert from Marxism. For too long I have blinded myself to the flaws and constant, inevitable failures of this system which can only lead to despotism and tyranny.

I believe Marx contributed greatly to society but the fact is that his economics are flawed and outdated, though I recognise that capitalism is *far* from being perfect at least it works. Human beings are instinctually selfish and sadly most of us do not work for morals alone, it is individual achievement that gives us the incentive to work hard.

Lenin, Stalin, Mao etc all proved to be totalitarian dictators of inhuman cruelty. Fortunately they failed, for if they did not then I'm sure George Orwell's 1984 would have become a reality. Though I am weary of Bush and his fascist friends at least we have the freedom to oppose them.

The revolution has failed. China, seemingly the only surviving "Communist" country of any power is in reality capitalist and it's government is corrupt and tyrannical. "Communism" is utopian. There will never be a society without an army, a police force or a state. My advice is to stop chasing martyrs and failed ideologies and be more concerned with current issues. As far as I'm concerned that wonderful dream of socialism and revolution died many years ago in central America 9th October 1967.

[Saint-Just]

Human beings are instinctually selfish and sadly most of us do not work for morals alone, it is individual achievement that gives us the incentive to work hard.

You are just stating what all capitalists state, it does not prove the theory of Marx wrong. It is an idea he criticised and created an alternative theory to. However you have not debunked the actual analysis of history Marx had to develop his concept. Therefore we can still subscribe to the Marxist theory with no pangs that we might have got it wrong because you said so.

Lenin, Stalin, Mao etc all proved to be totalitarian dictators of inhuman cruelty. Fortunately they failed, for if they did not then I'm sure George Orwell's 1984 would have become a reality. Though I am weary of Bush and his fascist friends at least we have the freedom to oppose them.

:lol: not even worth replying to. You were [i]never[i/] a Marxist , or at least if you were you never read any of the extensive parts about bourgeois ideas so pervading society that a false conscioussness is created where freedom in bourgeois society becomes irrelevant because it can never exist in bourgeois society. We have the freedom to criticise bourgeois ideas with more bourgeois ideas, regardless of this freedom Marxism says that the masses will gain a revolutionary conscioussness.

And on Lenin, Stalin and Mao you are simply of the bourgeois lying persuasion and as such do not deserve anything but a buller to the head to stop your lies that suppress the creativity and independance of free thinkers in this society.

and be more concerned with current issues

Socialism and Marxism is particularly a criticism of capitalism, capitalism is a current issue and therefore Marxism is highly relevant.

I think a lot of people will call you a capitalist who is just trying to get a reaction, I would also suggest this is true.

[Jesus Christ]

yes, you DO have the freedom to oppose Bush and his regime, but you dont have the freedom to elect anyone to office
you only get to choose from a handful of fascists like Bush
its a never ending cycle

[redstar2000]

"Communism" is utopian. There will never be a society without an army, a police force or a state.

They keep telling me that...why can't I accept it? :lol:


As far as I'm concerned that wonderful dream of socialism and revolution died many years ago in central America 9th October 1967.

Hey, Mr. Genius, Bolivia is not in "central America". :lol:

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

[CubanFox]

I'd like to ask you, Redstar, a question...what assurances have we that socialism or communism can ever really work? How do we know that it won't turn into some sort of dictatorship?

Because right wingers are always telling me that it can never work.

[apathy maybe]

True capitalism could never work either.

Capitalism (even semi capitalism) destroys the environment through its non account of infinite resources.

Marxism is an outdated doctrine. However, the society that Marx never really went into great detail about (communism) is still an 'ideal' society. That is it probably would never work. In my opinion, anarchism is another such 'ideal' society. A mix of the two ideas would work however.



I'd like to ask you, Redstar, a question...what assurances have we that socialism or communism can ever really work? How do we know that it won't turn into some sort of dictatorship?

Because right wingers are always telling me that it can never work.
Left-wingers are always telling you it would work. Which are you more likely to believe. Leftists that have your best interests at heart or rightists that have theirs?

[CubanFox]

I've never thought that communism (stateless society) would ever work, I was actually enquiring about socialism as the Eastern Bloc tried to implement. State controlled industry and all that.

[Don't Change Your Name]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2003, 07:45 PM
"Communism" is utopian. There will never be a society without an army, a police force or a state. My advice is to stop chasing martyrs and failed ideologies and be more concerned with current issues. As far as I'm concerned that wonderful dream of socialism and revolution died many years ago in central America 9th October 1967.
That's stupid. You can't just know. Remember that there was once when the state, the army and the police didnt exist. Ok ok, there were probably "armies", and we were still very primitive, but the point is that such things wont last forever. We can abolish state and police, in the same way people lives and dies. State, in fact, doesnt really exist, it's impossible for a supernatural thing that control everything to exist, it's just an organization to defend the interest of the thieves, and it can be destroyed in the same way it was created.

And what do you propose? Capitalism?

[Don't Change Your Name]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2003, 07:45 PM
though I recognise that capitalism is *far* from being perfect at least it works.
What criteria is used to determine that a system "works"?
That it has a good economy? And what is a good economy for you, that you can buy a tv while others die of hunger?
Or that it lasts? If you havent noticed, capitalism has crisis from time 2time, and then, when the leftist revolution seems to be coming, there's usually a fascist bastard who takes power, destroys the opposition and then, after stealing and destroying the economy even more, they restore the democracy which is left a country which takes decades to bring back to "shape".

[redstar2000]

I'd like to ask you, Redstar, a question...what assurances have we that socialism or communism can ever really work? How do we know that it won't turn into some sort of dictatorship?

Try this thread...

http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?a...t=ST&f=6&t=6427 (http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=6&t=6427)

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

[Bianconero]

'CrimsonCommunist', there is no need to reply to your post in full length, as anyone, who has studied Marxism knows that you never have. Your post consists of bourgeois prejudices and imperialist lies. Your pathetic attempts to discredit the most progressive idea that ever existed is full of idiocy and cowardice. You have no right to judge Marxism, as you have no honest idea what it is actually about. Every single word in your post gives proof to what I said, you never were a Marxist. Reading 'A Revolutionary Life' just ain't enough.

[komsomol]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2003, 07:45 PM
Today, on the anniversary of the death of Che Guevara I finalised my decision to convert from Marxism. For too long I have blinded myself to the flaws and constant, inevitable failures of this system which can only lead to despotism and tyranny.

I believe Marx contributed greatly to society but the fact is that his economics are flawed and outdated, though I recognise that capitalism is *far* from being perfect at least it works. Human beings are instinctually selfish and sadly most of us do not work for morals alone, it is individual achievement that gives us the incentive to work hard.

Lenin, Stalin, Mao etc all proved to be totalitarian dictators of inhuman cruelty. Fortunately they failed, for if they did not then I'm sure George Orwell's 1984 would have become a reality. Though I am weary of Bush and his fascist friends at least we have the freedom to oppose them.

The revolution has failed. China, seemingly the only surviving "Communist" country of any power is in reality capitalist and it's government is corrupt and tyrannical. "Communism" is utopian. There will never be a society without an army, a police force or a state. My advice is to stop chasing martyrs and failed ideologies and be more concerned with current issues. As far as I'm concerned that wonderful dream of socialism and revolution died many years ago in central America 9th October 1967.
Very well then, you convert, the Proletarian movement won't bat an eyelid...you petty-bougeoisie fuck. You were obviously never a Marxist since you lack the slightest understanding of it. You seem to have an unhealthy infatuation with Che Guevara, who, although he was a great man, displayed some incredibly un-Marxian characteristics in tactics. It is interesting to come in here after many weeks offline and see this. Obviously an opportunist who wants to milk the conversion for all its worth, as you have seen the light or something.
Well let me tell you friend, you have seen little of what Marxism has to offer. Marxism is not idealist, it is the opposite of idealism, it is Materialism. Marxism in the 20th century failed, yes, but it failed ONCE. All subsequent revolutions weren't Communist in nature, only the Russian Revolution was Marxist, and it is not as if the reasons of Marxism's failure in the USSR aren't clear to us. I am convinced that all the problems can be overcome. The Communist movement needs to shake off its Stalinist past and look to the future, because it is stuck in its own rhetoric.

You can tell me that Communism has failed only after you see a truly democratic state fail with a nationalised planned economy. There is nothing outdated about the economical works of Marx, except perhaps the commodities he refers to and the data he made his conclusions on, the general laws derived from the data can be better applied today. The Capitalist mode of production today has more in common with the 'pure' form of Capital outlined in the first volume of Capital.

I'm not sure how you can possibly suggest that Karl Marx's economic conclusions are flawed in nature however as every bloody criticism I have seen has been fed to the ignorant. Half the refutations of these criticisms come in the same volume of Capital that is being criticised.

To add to what a state is, it is a tool for the oppression of one class by another. If everbody comes under the same class then no state exists. And btw, don't try to turn this around and say that those are only economic classes that Communism destroys because political issues that ave potential at being oppressive are always economic, i.e based on material gain.

Like it or not, the Proletarians still stand irreconcilably opposed to the Bourgeois.

[UnionofSovietSocialistRepublics]

A system where some can own millions of times more than others clearly doesnt work.

[YKTMX]

Yeh man, that was like, so convincing, I'm totally with you on this one, where's the nearest McDonalds, I got a soul to sell.

[Unrelenting Steve]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2003, 06:45 PM
Today, on the anniversary of the death of Che Guevara I finalised my decision to convert from Marxism. For too long I have blinded myself to the flaws and constant, inevitable failures of this system which can only lead to despotism and tyranny.

I believe Marx contributed greatly to society but the fact is that his economics are flawed and outdated, though I recognise that capitalism is *far* from being perfect at least it works. Human beings are instinctually selfish and sadly most of us do not work for morals alone, it is individual achievement that gives us the incentive to work hard.

Lenin, Stalin, Mao etc all proved to be totalitarian dictators of inhuman cruelty. Fortunately they failed, for if they did not then I'm sure George Orwell's 1984 would have become a reality. Though I am weary of Bush and his fascist friends at least we have the freedom to oppose them.

The revolution has failed. China, seemingly the only surviving "Communist" country of any power is in reality capitalist and it's government is corrupt and tyrannical. "Communism" is utopian. There will never be a society without an army, a police force or a state. My advice is to stop chasing martyrs and failed ideologies and be more concerned with current issues. As far as I'm concerned that wonderful dream of socialism and revolution died many years ago in central America 9th October 1967.
At least it works!!!! Go live in the slums and tell me again that; "it works"

where is your empathy comrade, did it collapse along with your suspicious Marxist values?

[Exploited Class]

Oh capitalism works, but so does my 72 Chevy Nova that has a thrown rod, bad timming, bad muffler, misfires, throws up a blew smoke cloud ect..ect but it still works.

All previous systems have worked as well, Slavery worked as well, not for everybody really well, but hey it worked. So is that a pro-argument for slavery? It worked.

[sc4r]

Here is a stone cold fact from a Marxist who has not 'converted' - CAPITALISM When moderated by Liberal Democracy WORKS.. The original writer was dead right about that.

That combination of ideas has indisputably been at the heart of the most dramatic improvement in conditions for some (not a tiny few, but hundreds of millions) that the world has ever known. And it's kept working for several hundred years.

This does not mean it will keep working indefinitely (it wont) or that the improvements have not had associated costs (they have, very unpleasant ones in some instances).

But what the more dogmatic here might care to think about is that any complex mix of ideas that has proved that resilient and produced those achievements just might have some worthwhile features. In fact its a stone cold cert that it has.

And what the original writer has spotted (I suspect) is that what the orthodox Marxist / Socialist / Communist / and (ugh, worst of all) Anarchist visions and rhetoric do is to throw the baby out with the bathwater in their zeal to denounce it all.

He/she has nevber been introduced to a form of socialism that can actually work. And you lot are pretty much proving his point that he's better off out of it by swearing at him.

Come back to Socialism CrimsonCommie. You dont have to accept all the fanatic kids stuff, you dont have to sacrifice your future, there are ways to seek the best of both worlds Mate. It just is not quite as dramatically and gloriously 'revolutionary' as the kids would like it to be.

Ony if you have altered your view of basic morality (that all people deserve equality of opportuinty and dignity) need you renounce Socialism as a whole. All you acytually need to renounce is the unworkable bilge that many spew out out about it in their desire to show what committed and idealistic people thay are.