Maoist views on Kronstadt?

[Blake's Baby]

Now I'm sure that many people will want to post on here going 'all bolsheviks are statist bastards' or 'Kronstadt my arse, White Guard-Entente plot' and whatnot, but I'd really like an answert from people who identify with Maoism (in any flavour you like) on this, thanks.

I've heard rumours that some Maoists don't support the suppression of the Kronstadt rising. Is that true?

[Vampire Lobster]

i'm kind of hoping it'd be that some people shot other people and at this point nobody literally gives a fuck because it's by no means relevant today

[Blake's Baby]

Are you a Maoist? No? Then fuck off, I'm not interested in your 'opinions'. If you don't think Kronstadt is important I'd say you're a fucking piss-poor excuse for an Anarchist even.

[Savage]

Except that Kronstadt is an important event in the history of the class movement due to the questions it raises to communist theory such as the nature of the state and counter-revolution during the process (or failure) of communisation during the period of transition.

[Rafiq]

What a random question. Some oppose it, some don't. Youdont need to be a maoist to know that...

[S.Artesian]

What a random question. Some oppose it, some don't. Youdont need to be a maoist to know that...


I believe the comrade isn't conducting a poll of what this or that Maoist thinks, but rather is interested in knowing the reasons why Maoists do or do not support the actions of the Bolsheviks regarding Kronstadt. If Maoists are split, then the different reasonings are even more interesting.

So if you're a Maoist, what are your reasons one way of the other.

If there are Maoist organizations that have engaged this directly, I'd be interesting in reading their evaluations on this.

[Blake's Baby]

What a random question. Some oppose it, some don't. Youdont need to be a maoist to know that...

No, not a random question at all, a one that follows logically from thought process I've had in relation to information received. Perfectly normal mental process.

Maybe one doesn't have to be a Maoist to know that some oppose and some support the suppression of Kronstadt, but, that doesn't mean that everyone who is not a Maoist knows the answer to that question. I am not a Maoist. I do not know the answer to the question. That is why I'm trying to find out the views of Maoists on the question. Seems pretty reasonable and strightforward to me, but it seems to be causing other people a lot of trouble.

I was under the impression that Maoists supported the suppression of Kronstadt. No 'might or might not', just 'the Bolsheviks were justified in suppressing a counter-revolutionary plot'-kinda thing. Then I heard that some didn't (from someone who is also not a Maoist, so may not be totally reliable on this score), so I was asking what the real situation was, whether there really are Maoists who oppose the suppression of Kronstatdt.

S Artesian is right as well, reasons behind different poositions are good.

[Jose Gracchus]

The Kasama Project, specifically a piece by Mike Ely (http://www.revleft.com/vb/kronstadt-t148322/index.html?t=148322&highlight=Kronstadt) waded into the Kronstadt topic. One can read that thread and decide for themselves. I found it particularly amusing to hear Maoists of all peopleassimilate Trotsky's [bullshit] "it was the polluting presence of the counter-revolutionary peasant!" excuse.

[Hebrew Hammer]

I think Lenin summed up the affair fairly decently in the last sentence of his On Kronstadt:

"If people abroad exaggerate the importance of the rising in Kronstadt and give it support, it is because the world has broken up into two camps: capitalism abroad and Communist Russia."-V. I. Lenin.

I agree with this but I also think that it was tragic but at the same time, necessary and crucial for the success of the revolution. Mind you, (I know I sound like a broken record here) this is based upon my own meager research at the moment. I don't necessarily think it was some White tsarist conspiracy (though I admit, I could be wrong on this) even though it was certainly counter-revolutionary but I also don't believe it was some brutal slaughter of Anarchists either. I think it's the result of a brutal civil war and the securing of a base that was historically and practically important to the Bolsheviks and the revolution, tragic as it may be. My apologies for this not being 'in-depth' or whatever but these are my opinions and I am Maoist, so, take of it what you will.

[Jose Gracchus]

"No investigation, no right to speak."
- Mao

[Hebrew Hammer]

"No investigation, no right to speak."
- Mao

Hilarious.

[Jose Gracchus]

Because of your hypocrisy? You ran your mouth despite knowing nothing of the content of this historical event, and despite the fact I provided you with a debate and evidence by link, as it happens, with the Great Leader of your club of ex-Avakian Fan Club members.

[Hebrew Hammer]

Because of your hypocrisy?

What hypocrisy? I have done research or 'investigation' (even if meager) so you're hilarious little quote doesn't necessarily apply. This thread is to query Maoists about their opinions or positions on Kronstadt and I did just that.


You ran your mouth despite knowing nothing of the content of this historical event

I didn't run my mouth, I didn't spit out some rhetoric, I thought I was being pretty fair about it even if you don't agree with said opinion. Even if so, this is not what this thread is about, is it? No, I don't think so.


and despite the fact I provided you with a debate and evidence by link, as it happens, with the Great Leader of your club of ex-Avakian Fan Club members.

Blah, blah, blah, so you provided one link, whoop de do Basil, this thread is about Maoists positions and opinions of Kronstadt, I responded, if you disagree with it, ok, make another thread and ***** about it, perhaps I might respond, perhaps not. I am reading through said debate and I stated my opinion of the incident (for what it's worth), why you feel the need to rant and rave is beyond me.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Haven't we banned all the Maoists?

[Sixiang]

Haven't we banned all the Maoists?

Almost.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Yeah, I mean, Pali's gone, RedSun's gone, red cat's gone, mosfeld's gone (on his own volition IIRC)...I think that's pretty much it, as far as self-identifying Maoists go.

[Zanthorus]

Yeah, I mean, Pali's gone, RedSun's gone, red cat's gone, mosfeld's gone (on his own volition IIRC)...I think that's pretty much it, as far as self-identifying Maoists go.

patbuck is a Maoist :p

[Os Cangaceiros]

Nothing I hate worse than an incomplete purge! :sneaky:

[Hebrew Hammer]

Nothing I hate worse than an incomplete purge! :sneaky:

Purge? No, a purge wouldn't work, we're like termites, we're in the woodwork.

[Sixiang]

Yeah, I was kind of teasing/joking a little. :D

[Susurrus]

...crucial for the success of the revolution... it was certainly counter-revolutionary but I also don't believe it was some brutal slaughter of Anarchists either.

Why do you think it was crucial to the success of the revolution? Why do you it was counter-revolutionary? Why do you think it was anarchists?

The Kronstadt Uprising began when the Kronstadt sailors sent a delegation to Petrograd, where a worker's strike against the Bolsheviks was taking place(for bread, fuel, and political rights) to determine the conditions and circumstances of the strike. The Red Army was brought in to Petrograd and crushed the strike "by an iron hand"(Trotsky). However, the delegation made their report at a public meeting in Kronstadt, and the following resolution was passed:

Resolution of the General Meeting of the 1st and 2nd Squadrons of the Baltic Fleet, held on March 1st, 1921.

"After having heard the reports of the delegates sent to Petrograd by the general meeting of the crews to examine the situation, the assembly decided that, since it has been established that the present Soviets do not express the will of the workers and peasants, it is necessary:

1. to proceed immediately to the re-election of the Soviets by secret ballot, the electoral campaign among the workers and peasants to be carried on with full freedom of speech and action;

2. to establish freedom of speech and press for all workers and peasants, for the Anarchists and the Left Socialist parties;

3. to accord freedom of assembly to the workers' and peasants' organisations;

4. to convoke, outside of the political parties, a Conference of the workers, Red soldiers and sailors of Petrograd, Kronstadt and the Petrograd province for March 10th, 1921, at the latest;

5. to liberate all Socialist political prisoners and also all workers, peasants, Red soldiers and sailors, imprisoned as a result of the workers' and peasants' movements;

6. to elect a commission for the purpose of examining the cases of those who are in prisons or concentration camps;

7. to abolish the 'political offices', since no political party should have privileges for propagating its ideas or receive money from the State for this purpose, and to replace them with educational and cultural commissions elected in each locality and financed by the government;

8. to abolish immediately all barriers;

9. to make uniform the rations of all workers, except for those who are engaged in occupations dangerous to their health;

10. to abolish the Communist shock-troops in all units of the army and the Communist guards in the factories; in case of need, guard detachments could be supplied in the army by the companies and in the factories by the workers;

11. to give the peasants full freedom of action in regard to their land and also the right to possess cattle, on condition that they do their own work, that is to say, without hiring help;

12. to establish a travelling control commission;

13. to permit the free exercise of handicrafts, provided no hired help is used;

14. we ask all units of the army and the kursanti cadets to join our resolution;

15. we demand that all our resolutions be widely publicised in the press.

This resolution was adopted unanimously by the meeting of the crews of the Squadrons. Two persons abstained.


This was what they fought for. Also, they did not consider themselves anarchists, but communists. Not Bolsheviks, and certainly sympathetic to anarchists, but communists the same.