IRA blamed for Kingsmills atrocity

[Irish Left]

http://img.u.tv/galleries/777/290x160/kingsmills_16062011.jpg

The IRA has been blamed for one of the worst atrocities of Northern Ireland's Troubles - the massacre of ten Protestant workmen, gunned down on their way home from work in the south Armagh village of Kingsmills in 1976.


UTV has obtained a leaked version of a report drawn up into what happened, which includes the startling revelation that one of the gunmen is suspected of playing a key role in the Omagh bombing.

Finally completed following an investigation by the Historical Enquiries Team, the 108-page final report is due to be published next week.



Willie Frazer, whose father was among those murdered on January 5 that year, says getting answers is vital for the victims' families.

"Because we've actually known some of the things for quite a number of years," he said. "But it's like everything else, it's a myth until you actually see it in black and white."

The men were forced at gunpoint to reveal their religion. They were lined up, flasks and lunchboxes still in their hands, and shot dead.

One man hit 18 times survived.

According to investigators, the guns themselves had been used many times before - in 37 murders, 22 attempted murders and 19 non-fatal shootings.

The report also lists failing by the small 12-man RUC team that investigated the killings, detailing how they failed to trace and interview a number of potential witnesses.

Up to a dozen gunmen were involved in the Kingsmills shootings and by December 1976, all were living in the Republic.

In 2002, a key suspect was stopped at Heathrow. Despite still being on a wanted list, he was allowed to continue on his journey.

A group calling itself the South Armagh Republican Action Force said it carried out the Kingsmills attack. That was widely believed to be a covername for the IRA.

The report says there is evidence that the IRA unit was not well disposed towards central co-ordination, but that there is no excuse in that.

The victims' families will give their response to the findings on Tuesday.

http://www.u.tv/News/IRA-blamed-for-Kingsmills-atrocity/1b20f205-9322-4a21-9f01-77ab80ac7be9

[Aspiring Humanist]

inb4 people attempting to defend them

Yeah the IRA were anti-imperialist good for them but they were also theocratic fascists

[Irish Left]

inb4 people attempting to defend them

Yeah the IRA were anti-imperialist good for them but they were also theocratic fascists

Well that's wrong clearly. They had a simple aim of driving out the British occupation and defending the communities that most came from, from sectarian attacks.
And before people say republicans supported it, we don't. All republicans rightfully condemn it. However it was clear it was prob carried out by people who had lost innocent family members or friends to loyalists and didn't think before arranging this. Though that does not excuse them in any way

[fionntan]

It was carried out to stop the loyalist murder gangs operating in the area at the time who six hours previous had just murdered 6 innocents catholic workers and many many more the same year.After this it stop.

[Irish Left]

It was carried out to stop the loyalist murder gangs operating in the area at the time who six hours previous had just murdered 6 innocents catholic workers and many many more the same year.After this it stop.

A chara don't stoop to the loyalists level, and condemn the attack. It was wrong and the scumbags who carried it out should have been Court Martialed.

[Bronco]

It was carried out to stop the loyalist murder gangs operating in the area at the time who six hours previous had just murdered 6 innocents catholic workers and many many more the same year.After this it stop.

Nah, sorry, doesnt justify murdering 10 innocent workers just because of their religion

[fionntan]

Are for real? If anyone should of been it should of been the O.C not the Vols..

[Irish Left]

Are for real? If anyone should of been it should of been the O.C not the Vols..

Yeah whoever ordered it should have been shot imo. But the vols who carried it out are volunteers and although the shame of their actions is prob torture they should have been punished in some way.

[Irish Left]

BDW guys does the ongoing struggles section have a specific mod?

[Madvillainy]

Well that's wrong clearly. They had a simple aim of driving out the British occupation and defending the communities that most came from, from sectarian attacks.


oh fuck i hate the 'defending the communities from sectarian attacks' line that gets threw about by apologists of nationalist murder gangs like the ira. soo who was defending the 'protestant community' from the often deliberately sectarian campaign of the ira?


However it was clear it was prob carried out by people who had lost innocent family members or friends to loyalists and didn't think before arranging this.

and u dont think actions like kingsmill and the countless other atrocities like it drove working class protestants into loyalist paramilitary organisations? the fact is republicans through their actions perpetuated sectarianism and helped cement the lack of unity between catholic and protestant workers and if u support that shit you probs shouldnt be on this forum.

[Irish Left]

oh fuck i hate the 'defending the communities from sectarian attacks' line that gets threw about by apologists of nationalist murder gangs like the ira. soo who was defending the 'protestant community' from the often deliberately sectarian campaign of the ira?



and u dont think actions like kingsmill and the countless other atrocities like it drove working class protestants into loyalist paramilitary organisations? the fact is republicans through their actions perpetuated sectarianism and helped cement the lack of unity between catholic and protestant workers and if u support that shit you probs shouldnt be on this forum.

Well since it was loyalists who started the "troubles" by attacking civil rights marches and burning people from their homes because of their religion the IRA had to defend the. Also the first killing was carried out by loyalists.
There where also very few deliberate attacks on protestant civilians by the IRA. Any that where carried out have been fully condemned by republicans and rightly so. The vast vast majority of the IRAs attacks where against military, RUC, loyalist or economic targets.

And of course they drove people to the sectarian murder gangs and that is another reason why the few sectarian attacks carried out should never have happened.

[fionntan]

oh fuck i hate the 'defending the communities from sectarian attacks' line that gets threw about by apologists of nationalist murder gangs like the ira. soo who was defending the 'protestant community' from the often deliberately sectarian campaign of the ira?



and u dont think actions like kingsmill and the countless other atrocities like it drove working class protestants into loyalist paramilitary organisations? the fact is republicans through their actions perpetuated sectarianism and helped cement the lack of unity between catholic and protestant workers and if u support that shit you probs shouldnt be on this forum.


Have to out ill be getting back to you tomorow scumbag.

[Madvillainy]

There where also very few deliberate attacks on protestant civilians by the IRA. Any that where carried out have been fully condemned by republicans and rightly so. The vast vast majority of the IRAs attacks where against military, RUC, loyalist or economic targets.


the ludicrous idea that this in someways negates the fact that the IRA are sectarian is fucking ridiculous. this whole line of argument is ballsed up to begin with anyway because how is killing people over nationalism any better???

[Irish Left]

the ludicrous idea that this in someways negates the fact that the IRA are sectarian is fucking ridiculous. this whole line of argument is ballsed up to begin with anyway because how is killing people over nationalism any better???

Awk don't be such a revisionist prat. The IRA where not and are not sectarian. They may have attracted some sectarian individuals who joined to get back at loyalists burning them out of their homes and murdering their friends and family but the vast majority where not sectarian.
What so your an imperialist then? Strange for someone who calls himself a communist. You disagree with people taking up arms against the imperialist forces that occupy their country and refuse to give them self determination?
Cop on and don't try to re-write history.

[Ocean Seal]

Before we start calling them theocratic fascists lets first examine the evidence. Yes this was a horrible massacre, which should not under any circumstances be excused regardless of who carried it out, but why is it the IRA who carried it out. According to the article which doesn't seem to be pro-IRA:
1. The group called itself the South Armagh Republican Action Force.
2. The report says there is evidence that the IRA unit was not well disposed towards central co-ordination, but that there is no excuse in that.

So if the group isn't called the IRA nor did it take orders from the central command of the IRA why should we blame the IRA. Moreover, it is widely known that the IRA stands against all sectarian violence and that participating in sectarian violence merely exacerbates it rather than making it go away.

[maumaurebel]

Kingsmills was wrong and all republicans have condemned it but you cant wish away the fact that Catholics were targeted by not only loyalists but the RUC and British Special Forces who joined together in order to target innocent civilians in their homes and going about their normal business.

Their conduct was totally sectarian and intent on terrifying them into accepting British and Unioinst rule in the 6 Counties.

This is what drove the group who carried out Kingsmills to do what they did. As usual and this drives me mad every time, no mention will be made of the murders of the Reavey brothers or the members of the O'Dowd family, only the murders carried out by the IRA.

Until the people who murdered innocent Catholics and their communities admit to themselves and the wider media admits it, then there cannot be justice for all innocent civilians who died in this conflict.

[Mindtoaster]

IRA Vols were responsible for Kingsmill =/= The IRA was responsible for Kingsmill

Its been pretty apparent for decades that IRA men using a cover organization carried out the attack.

Whether or not they carried it out on the orders and with the permission of the army council is totally different. The IRA depended on a moral highground for local and international support, it seems unlikely that they would have actually ordered this atrocity.

Even if they did, it doesn't change the fact that sectarian attacks from the IRA were the exception, not the rule. Anyone who equates the IRA with the UDA or the UVF is a fucking dishonest moron

[Irish Left]

IRA Vols were responsible for Kingsmill =/= The IRA was responsible for Kingsmill

Its been pretty apparent for decades that IRA men using a cover organization carried out the attack.

Whether or not they carried it out on the orders and with the permission of the army council is totally different. The IRA depended on a moral highground for local and international support, it seems unlikely that they would have actually ordered this atrocity.

Even if they did, it doesn't change the fact that sectarian attacks from the IRA were the exception, not the rule. Anyone who equates the IRA with the UDA or the UVF is a fucking dishonest moron

Well said.

[TAL]

To appreciate the nature of the conflict one needs to look at the facts and the figures. I suggest the rather excellent CAIN (http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/) site.

Now, lets look at the figures shall we?

The provos caused the deaths of 1711 people:

512 Civilians
1012 British Security Forces
141 Republican paramilitaries
39 Loyalist Paramiltaries
7 Irish security

If you do a bit of maths you will see that 29.9% of the people killed by the PIRA were civilians.


Lets look at loyalists:
They killed 1016 people.

868 Civilians
14 British Security
41 Republican paramilitaries.
93 Loyalist paramilitaries (mostly feuds, some accidents)

Maths time!

85.43% of people killed by Loyalists were civilians.
4.7% of the people killed by Loyalists were Republican paramilitaries.

Of the civilians 684 were innocents catholics. Of the remainder the majority of those killed were protestants who the loyalist death squads thought where catholics. Some other deaths are a result of feuds.

When you add the number of civilians killed by both the loyalists and the Brits(army, RUC) together you get 1055.


Thats more than DOUBLE the amount of civilians the PIRA killed. When you examine how those civilians who the PIRA killed died you will discover that the vast majority were unintentional killings, such as the innocents killed in attacking legitimate targets such as Mountbatten etc. Or mistaken identity. Only on VERY rare occasions was the motivation sectarian as it was in the case of Kingsmill. And yes, that attack was a disgrace.

Simply by looking at the figures we can see that the PIRA were not a sectarian group. They did not kill people because of their religion, unlike the loyalists.

The PIRA are guilty of cracking under the pressure caused by loyalists killing random Catholics. The loyalist mentality was that killing innocent people would put pressure on the PIRA to cease operations. Instead it put pressure on the PIRA to act, to retaliate. They should have persevered but the Reavey and O'Dowd killings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reavey_and_O'Dowd_killings) just hours before proved too much, the volunteers cracked and responded in kind. Its rather sick when you realize that it worked, and deterred sectarian killings in the area.

Regardless it was wrong. Republicanism is not a sectarian ideology. The Provisional Irish Republican Army were not a sectarian organization.

This rather ugly chapter in the fight for Irish freedom as brought about by the rampant and disgusting sectarian killings by loyalists. The loyalists got what they wanted, the PIRA broke under the pressure but the result was not the one they desired(less PIRA operations).

[Irish Left]

And you can add in the INLA:

British security forces 46 41%
Irish security forces 2 2%
Civilian 39 34%
Civilian political activist 3 3%
Republican paramilitary 16 14%
Loyalist paramilitary 7 6%

For the INLA you have to take into account that they where originally set up as the PLA to defend the IRSP (political wing) from attacks by the OIRA and later they had to defend themselves by the IPLO prats. Both IPLO and OIRA are and where though to be involved in criminality.

[Bronco]

Plus you have the fact that there were several prominent members of the IRA that were Protestants, it's absurd to even compare them to the sectarianism of the UDA & UVF

[Irish Left]

Plus you have the fact that there were several prominent members of the IRA that were Protestants, it's absurd to even compare them to the sectarianism of the UDA & UVF

Yes INLA members where too.
And wolfetone the original republican was protestant.

[LewisQ]

Whether or not they carried it out on the orders and with the permission the army council is totally different. The IRA depended on a moral highground for local and international support, it seems unlikely that they would have actually ordered this atrocity.
Hehe, yeah. That's also what stopped them from doing stuff like using civilians as human bombs. Oh wait...But hey, some guy on the internet reckons it "seems unlikely" they'd do that, so that's good enough for me!

The juvenile special pleading for the 'RA in this thread is sadly predictable, but I don't think describing them as "theocratic fascists" is accurate or helpful to an understanding of the conflict either. There was certainly a significant element which might have been so described within the armed republican movement, but by the 70s it was basically dead.

[Marxach-Léinínach]

Yes INLA members where too.
And wolfetone the original republican was protestant.
Pádraig Pearse was as well wan't he?

[Marxach-Léinínach]

Hehe, yeah. That's also what stopped them from doing stuff like using civilians as human bombs. Oh wait...But hey, some guy on the internet reckons it "seems unlikely" they'd do that, so that's good enough for me!

The juvenile special pleading for the 'RA in this thread is sadly predictable, but I don't think describing them as "theocratic fascists" is accurate or helpful to an understanding of the conflict either. There was certainly a significant element which might have been so described within the armed republican movement, but by the 70s it was basically dead.

I think you'll find those guys were soldiers or at least part of the army or something

[maumaurebel]

There was certainly a significant element which might have been so described within the armed republican movement, but by the 70s it was basically dead.

How do you work that out? The IRA were seen all through the 80s and 90s at least as one of the most advanced revolutionary armies in the world and were far from dead.

The only thing that undermined them was those in their "political wing" who worked to bring about their demise and surrendering of weapons but as the Brighton bomb, the mortar attack on Downing Street, Manchester and Warrenpoint proved they were more than capable of mounting spectacular, audacious and well thought out attacks on the British establishment.

So you're view that they were dead is ridiculous and should be buried.:thumbdown:

[Tim Finnegan]

And you people insist on making my signature relevant yet again...

VSYPecZI_AI


Pádraig Pearse was as well wan't he?
He was raised Protestant (some Dissenting church or other, I think), but he converted to Catholicism. He was pretty notoriously zealous about it, too, if not a sectarian.


Yes INLA members where too.
And wolfetone the original republican was protestant.
:rolleyes:

[CommieTroll]

The IRA have always supported mindless nationalism and just want to set up a theocracy in Northern Ireland

[Marxach-Léinínach]

The IRA have always supported mindless nationalism and just want to set up a theocracy in Northern Ireland

Look at that - imperialist apologism from a "communist". You obviously don't know shit about the Irish struggle so please kindly fuck off until you bothered to learn just a teeny bit

[Tim Finnegan]

Look at that - imperialist apologism from a "communist". You obviously don't know shit about the Irish struggle so please kindly fuck off until you bothered to learn just a teeny bit
In what sense? :confused: Supporting anti-imperial struggles doesn't necessarily entail supporting the most prominent anti-imperialist organisation. Or are you the sort of bampot who thinks that leftists should support the Taliban on principle?

[Patchd]

The men were forced at gunpoint to reveal their religion. They were lined up


Have to out ill be getting back to you tomorow scumbag.Dicks. Dicks, everywhere.

[Irish Left]

Hehe, yeah. That's also what stopped them from doing stuff like using civilians as human bombs. Oh wait...But hey, some guy on the internet reckons it "seems unlikely" they'd do that, so that's good enough for me!

The juvenile special pleading for the 'RA in this thread is sadly predictable, but I don't think describing them as "theocratic fascists" is accurate or helpful to an understanding of the conflict either. There was certainly a significant element which might have been so described within the armed republican movement, but by the 70s it was basically dead.

Christ the armchair revolutionaries here are mad. Proxy bombs wher used only a few times before those who had been ordering them realised what they where doing was daft and stopped.

[LewisQ]

How do you work that out? The IRA were seen all through the 80s and 90s at least as one of the most advanced revolutionary armies in the world and were far from dead.

The only thing that undermined them was those in their "political wing" who worked to bring about their demise and surrendering of weapons but as the Brighton bomb, the mortar attack on Downing Street, Manchester and Warrenpoint proved they were more than capable of mounting spectacular, audacious and well thought out attacks on the British establishment.

So you're view that they were dead is ridiculous and should be buried.:thumbdown:
Have another go at reading what I actually wrote there.

[Irish Left]

And you people insist on making my signature relevant yet again...

VSYPecZI_AI


He was raised Protestant (some Dissenting church or other, I think), but he converted to Catholicism. He was pretty notoriously zealous about it, too, if not a sectarian.


:rolleyes:

Want to expand on your smiley face or will you only be posting stupid answers?

[Irish Left]

The IRA have always supported mindless nationalism and just want to set up a theocracy in Northern Ireland

So you against people taking up arms against their imperialiat oppressors? Strange commie you are.

[Tim Finnegan]

Want to expand on your smiley face or will you only be posting stupid answers?
Declaring somebody to be "the original republican" really doesn't merit much more than a smiley.


So you against people taking up arms against their imperialiat oppressors? Strange commie you are.
An entirely false dichotomy. (Plus, on a purely theoretical level, I question whether the British presence in Ulster during the Troubles can be considered "imperialistic", in the proper sense of the word. If the term is to have any meaning, it must be based in material realities, not in bourgeois programs for "national" autonomy.)

[Irish Left]

Declaring somebody to be "the original republican" really doesn't merit much more than a smiley.


An entirely false dichotomy.

Right so youd disagree that Wolfetone was the father of republicanism in Ireland. You must have some insids info nobody else does?

Whats false about the second part. Care to expand or do yo not know?

[Tim Finnegan]

Right so youd disagree that Wolfetone was the father of republicanism in Ireland. You must have some insids info nobody else does?
No, I just understand the difference between being a prominent and oft-lionised figure in the early Irish republican movement, and actually being personally responsible for inventing the whole movement by himself. I mean, where do folk like Thomas Russell, Henry Joy McCracken and Napper Tandy fit into this model, exactly?


Whats false about the second part. Care to expand or do yo not know?The dichotomy you present is either supporting the Provisional IRA (or whichever petty faction you have personally identified as holding the proper line of apostolic succession from the First Dail), or accepting British rule in Ireland without even the barest murmur of complaint. If I really have to explain to you why that is spurious, then you are not going to understand anyway.

[Irish Left]

No, I just understand the difference between being a prominent and oft-lionised figure in the early Irish republican movement, and actually being personally responsible for inventing the whole movement by himself. I mean, where do folk like Thomas Russell, Henry Joy McCracken and Napper Tandy fit into this model, exactly?

The dichotomy you present is either supporting the Provisional IRA (or whichever petty faction you have personally identified as holding the proper line of apostolic succession from the First Dail), or accepting British rule in Ireland without even the barest murmur of complaint. If I really have to explain to you why that is spurious, then you are not going to understand anyway.

But as leader of that movement he is seen as the founder of of republicanism in Ireland.

No I support the IRSM. And I see no succession from the First Daíl. I do not accept British rule in Ireland and I wish to see and British rule removed.
As for you saying earlier about Britain's presence in Ireland not being imperialist of coarse it was. The 6 county's are just another colony in the empire, as well as England ruling the Freestate though neo-colonialism.

[Madvillainy]

The IRA where not and are not sectarian.

:rolleyes:



You disagree with people taking up arms against the imperialist forces that occupy their country and refuse to give them self determination?

its pretty simple, irish republicanism (socialist or otherwise) is a nationalist ideology. therefore it is anti-socialist. this whole self-determination bollocks has nothing to do with communist politics.

only the working class can effectively fight imperialism. small left wing groups or armed nationalist gangsters aint gonna cut it.

[Irish Left]

:rolleyes:



its pretty simple, irish republicanism (socialist or otherwise) is a nationalist ideology. therefore it is anti-socialist. this whole self-determination bollocks has nothing to do with communist politics.

only the working class can effectively fight imperialism. small left wing groups or armed nationalist gangsters aint gonna cut it.

I honestly think you don't even know who/what the IRA are. Those stupid smiley faces clearly show you don't have the ability to back yourself in a debate about it

Well if that's nationalism then nationalism is a good think. Or how would you set up a communist state? You taking the side of the British empire, typical internet revolutionary.
The working class where the IRA and the INLA, and they did fight the British empire to a standstill. Who are these nationalist gangsters your on about. You should report them to local republicans to deal with.

If socialist groups and republican socialist groups won't bring about socialism what will. Have you a grand ideas. Will it be from behind your keyboard, you and the rest of you one man band?

[Madvillainy]

I honestly think you don't even know who/what the IRA are. Those stupid smiley faces clearly show you don't have the ability to back yourself in a debate about it.

i think i have a small idea of who the ira are and their history. i know all about their bombing/murdering of civilians. i believe they played a massive role in escalating sectarian violence in northern ireland and their whole ideology is based on reactionary nationalism. the reason i responded with a stupid smiley is because you must be delusional if you think there is anything socialist or 'progressive' about the various nationalist groups in this country.


Well if that's nationalism then nationalism is a good think.

at least u dont try and hide ur nationalism i suppose.


You taking the side of the British empire, typical internet revolutionary.

better than being a apologist for murderous scum, typical internet republican.


Who are these nationalist gangsters your on about. You should report them to local republicans to deal with.

If socialist groups and republican socialist groups won't bring about socialism what will. Have you a grand ideas. Will it be from behind your keyboard, you and the rest of you one man band?

hmm well take the inla for example. they have been involved in straight up gangsterism in dublin to this day, they were involved in sectarian murders, bombing pubs etc. in one incident they kidnapped a dentist cut off his fingers and sent them to his family. sounds more like something out of an al pacino flick than a group supposedly fighting for socialism.

republican groups wont bring about socialism, the working class will. organisations like the irps have no more to do with socialism than the UVF, UDA, Provos or the brit army.

[Coggeh]

To appreciate the nature of the conflict one needs to look at the facts and the figures. I suggest the rather excellent CAIN (http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/) site.

Now, lets look at the figures shall we?

The provos caused the deaths of 1711 people:

512 Civilians
1012 British Security Forces
141 Republican paramilitaries
39 Loyalist Paramiltaries
7 Irish security

If you do a bit of maths you will see that 29.9% of the people killed by the PIRA were civilians.


Lets look at loyalists:
They killed 1016 people.

868 Civilians
14 British Security
41 Republican paramilitaries.
93 Loyalist paramilitaries (mostly feuds, some accidents)

Maths time!

85.43% of people killed by Loyalists were civilians.
4.7% of the people killed by Loyalists were Republican paramilitaries.

Of the civilians 684 were innocents catholics. Of the remainder the majority of those killed were protestants who the loyalist death squads thought where catholics. Some other deaths are a result of feuds.

When you add the number of civilians killed by both the loyalists and the Brits(army, RUC) together you get 1055.


Holy f**k.
Are you actually trying to justify the IRA's (especially the scum provo's) campaign based on the fact they killed a lesser percentage of civilians than the unionist scumbags?

See this is where the "republican left" get its things mixed up, as marxists we understand the different nature of republican paramilitarism and unionist, that republicanism stems from anti-colonialism etc but that doesn't bloody justify actions or should garner the support of people. Its playing into the hands of the divide and rule tactics of the Irish and British State.

Working class unity cannot come from republicanism, we have seen unity in action based on the fact of condemning attacks on british soldiers and police officers in the recent based by communities both catholic and protestant, and at a time where both SF and the DUP (the traditional heads of sectarianism) are the ones implementing cuts on the working class people we should supporting united working class struggles against them, not bloody sitting around in some secret club talking about killing drug dealers and idiotic vigilantism completely removed from the real working class struggle.

[Coggeh]

Well if that's nationalism then nationalism is a good think. Or how would you set up a communist state? You taking the side of the British empire, typical internet revolutionary.
Firstly communism is stateless.
Secondly nationalism IS a bad thing. Its purely divisive,its constantly used by the ruling class to undermine the working class struggle, Look at the dock workers strikes in belfast in 1907 or the 1913 lockout and the role of the catholic/ SF in 1913 and prodestant churches and the unionists in 1907. They spewed about nationalism and against working class unity.


The working class where the IRA and the INLA, and they did fight the British empire to a standstill. Who are these nationalist gangsters your on about. You should report them to local republicans to deal with.Are you serious? fought the British empire to a standstill you say? what a bloody joke. The methods of the IRA and the INLA are counter productive to working class struggle, they set back the movement for unity and socialism by reviving divisions among working class people.

And no what the hell, "report them to your local republicans" what a bunch of typical tankie macho sh*t.



If socialist groups and republican socialist groups won't bring about socialism what will. Have you a grand ideas. Will it be from behind your keyboard, you and the rest of you one man band?Well its not going to be from some faceless anti working class republican group or there idiotic counterparts.

[Irish Left]

i think i have a small idea of who the ira are and their history. i know all about their bombing/murdering of civilians. i believe they played a massive role in escalating sectarian violence in northern ireland and their whole ideology is based on reactionary nationalism. the reason i responded with a stupid smiley is because you must be delusional if you think there is anything socialist or 'progressive' about the various nationalist groups in this country.



at least u dont try and hide ur nationalism i suppose.



better than being a apologist for murderous scum, typical internet republican.



hmm well take the inla for example. they have been involved in straight up gangsterism in dublin to this day, they were involved in sectarian murders, bombing pubs etc. in one incident they kidnapped a dentist cut off his fingers and sent them to his family. sounds more like something out of an al pacino flick than a group supposedly fighting for socialism.

republican groups wont bring about socialism, the working class will. organisations like the irps or the ra have no more to do with socialism than the UVF, UDA, Provos or the brit army.

Sorry but you really have no Idea what you talking about. So ill try and keep my reply as short as possible.
First go read a few books and workout why the IRA took up arms in 69.
Sticking up for imperialism while claiming to be a communist. Something strange about you......
INLA in dublin. A few gangsters tried to use the INLAs name and when the founf out swift punishment was delt out including executions. If you disagree ask yourself why no INLA vol has ever been convicted of criminality. If they where the spooks would make sure to exploit it and loose the INLA all support.
Tiger kidnapping the elite, I don't personally agree with it all the time but....
You need your head checked out if you think the IRSP aren't socialist, and if Socilist republicans won't bring socialism nobody will.

[Irish Left]

Holy f**k.
Are you actually trying to justify the IRA's (especially the scum provo's) campaign based on the fact they killed a lesser percentage of civilians than the unionist scumbags?

See this is where the "republican left" get its things mixed up, as marxists we understand the different nature of republican paramilitarism and unionist, that republicanism stems from anti-colonialism etc but that doesn't bloody justify actions or should garner the support of people. Its playing into the hands of the divide and rule tactics of the Irish and British State.

Working class unity cannot come from republicanism, we have seen unity in action based on the fact of condemning attacks on british soldiers and police officers in the recent based by communities both catholic and protestant, and at a time where both SF and the DUP (the traditional heads of sectarianism) are the ones implementing cuts on the working class people we should supporting united working class struggles against them, not bloody sitting around in some secret club talking about killing drug dealers and idiotic vigilantism completely removed from the real working class struggle.

Republicans where force to take up arms in 69. Working class unity will come from republicanism. Thats the aim "an Ireland of equals"

[Irish Left]

Firstly communism is stateless.
Secondly nationalism IS a bad thing. Its purely divisive,its constantly used by the ruling class to undermine the working class struggle, Look at the dock workers strikes in belfast in 1907 or the 1913 lockout and the role of the catholic/ SF in 1913 and prodestant churches and the unionists in 1907. They spewed about nationalism and against working class unity.
Are you serious? fought the British empire to a standstill you say? what a bloody joke. The methods of the IRA and the INLA are counter productive to working class struggle, they set back the movement for unity and socialism by reviving divisions among working class people.

And no what the hell, "report them to your local republicans" what a bunch of typical tankie macho sh*t.

Well its not going to be from some faceless anti working class republican group or there idiotic counterparts.

How is it stateless? How will it ever come about without a state? Please expand. How can their be a socialist Ireland with out a state?

The IRA and INLA where forced to take up arms to protect the people. There was no other option.
SO who do you report crime or drug dealers to instead?

[Android]

How is it stateless? How will it ever come about without a state? Please expand. How can their be a socialist Ireland with out a state?

This is really the crux of the problem with left-republicanism. Its politics are inescapably Stalinist ('socialism in one country', 'Cuba on the edge of Europe' etc)

[Irish Left]

This is really the crux of the problem with left-republicanism. Its politics are inescapably Stalinist ('socialism in one country', 'Cuba on the edge of Europe' etc)

Go on how will there be stateless socialism in Ireland? Its impossible.

Though I don't expect and answer as you's hav't a clue what you's are talking about.

[Crux]

So the provos killed more republican paramilitaries than the loyalists? Interesting.

[Irish Left]

So the provos killed more republican paramilitaries than the loyalists? Interesting.

Yes the OIRA would count in that who where said to be involved in criminality and also that includes shooting informers/spys in the organisation.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Is it wrong to ask a "working class" party not to kill members of the "working class" based on their religion?

I mean, I would rather fight for a Socialist system in both Britain and Ireland, for both Catholics and Protestants. Doing otherwise leads to retaliatory massacres on both sides which alienate the working class from one another based on sectarian lines. It doesn't matter whether you murder even just one unarmed, innocent worker in response to a million from "your" ethnicity being killed, it's still wrong and it's still going to distract from the real enemy. And it's going to drive the "working class" from the "other side" right into the hands of the fascists and far-rightists.

I am sympathetic with Irish resentment of English misrule but petty nationalism fails as a comprehensive critique of the system responsible for the oppression. Look at the Republic of Ireland, it's now a bankrupt neoliberal Capitalist country which is beholden to the EU. The people of Ireland have the same relationship with Empire whether they live in Belfast or Dublin. You cannot fight the war against Capital on sectarian lines, and any attempt to do so will distract from the real problems. The bourgeois come from all religious and ethnic backgrounds, as do the proletariat.

[Tifosi]

Though I don't expect and answer as you's hav't a clue what you's are talking about.


Working class unity will come from republicanism. Thats the aim "an Ireland of equals"

Working-class unite won't come about due to Republicanism or Loyalism. Your both obnoxious groups of people, with murderous past's.
Both failing to learn from the past.

"Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, but expecting different results." — Albert Einstein

[Marxach-Léinínach]

Look at the Republic of Ireland, it's now a bankrupt neoliberal Capitalist country which is beholden to the EU.

It's also a country which was created via actual Irish nationalists slaughtering the republican socialists of the IRA. "Look at how the south turned out" ain't a viable argument against the IRA

[Marxach-Léinínach]

Working-class unite won't come about due to Republicanism or Loyalism. Your both obnoxious groups of people, with murderous past's.
Both failing to learn from the past.

"Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, but expecting different results." — Albert Einstein

What's your solution then?

[Irish Left]

Is it wrong to ask a "working class" party not to kill members of the "working class" based on their religion?

I mean, I would rather fight for a Socialist system in both Britain and Ireland, for both Catholics and Protestants. Doing otherwise leads to retaliatory massacres on both sides which alienate the working class from one another based on sectarian lines. It doesn't matter whether you murder even just one unarmed, innocent worker in response to a million from "your" ethnicity being killed, it's still wrong and it's still going to distract from the real enemy. And it's going to drive the "working class" from the "other side" right into the hands of the fascists and far-rightists.

I am sympathetic with Irish resentment of English misrule but petty nationalism fails as a comprehensive critique of the system responsible for the oppression. Look at the Republic of Ireland, it's now a bankrupt neoliberal Capitalist country which is beholden to the EU. The people of Ireland have the same relationship with Empire whether they live in Belfast or Dublin. You cannot fight the war against Capital on sectarian lines, and any attempt to do so will distract from the real problems. The bourgeois come from all religious and ethnic backgrounds, as do the proletariat.

Comrade it was never a sectarian warfare but the brits portrayed it that way. Member of the IRA did react to the sectarian violence committed by loyalists and promoted by the brits. But these attacks where wrong.

[Android]

Go on how will there be stateless socialism in Ireland? Its impossible.

Though I don't expect and answer as you's hav't a clue what you's are talking about.

I agree with you "stateless socialism" in Ireland is "impossible". But obviously for different reasons, i.e. from my standpoint there is no national road to socialism.

Your revulsion at the possibility of "stateless socialism" is strikingly similar to the response of bourgeois ideologues of whatever form. Which isn't surprise given the bourgeois nature of your politics, being oriented towards a re-ordering of the state-system not its abolition.

[Irish Left]

I agree with you "stateless socialism" in Ireland is "impossible". But obviously for different reasons, i.e. from my standpoint there is no national road to socialism.

Your revulsion at the possibility of "stateless socialism" is strikingly similar to the response of bourgeois ideologues of whatever form. Which isn't surprise given the bourgeois nature of your politics, being oriented towards a re-ordering of the state-system not its abolition.

So what do you aim for? Would you not like to see a socialist Irish Republic?

Also if you knew about socialist republicans politics who would know that the aim is to smash the state and set up a socialist republic.

[Cork Socialist]

Is this how things in the north will keep going? its constant finger pointing "oh he killed ___ so were going to respond" then the other Side responds by killing someone else. Its a never ending cycle.
Also I don't think people are sticking up for Imperialist powers, There sticking up for the Murder of civilians. Be they catholic or Protestant.

Peace in the North will only come through Unity of the Working Classes, Not from Sectarian violence committed by both sides. The never ending shit from both sides will need lead to anything in the north, only more violence.
Most of what happens in the north is purely Reactionary and its only through a working class movement that involves both sides of the community that peace in the north will come about.

[Marxach-Léinínach]

I don't think unionists are going to become open to socialism or communism anytime soon though

[Cork Socialist]

I don't think unionists are going to become open to socialism or communism anytime soon though
Perhaps Ian Paisley won't, but i think its naive to say that they would all be definitely opposed to it

[Irish Left]

Is this how things in the north will keep going? its constant finger pointing "oh he killed ___ so were going to respond" then the other Side responds by killing someone else. Its a never ending cycle.
Also I don't think people are sticking up for Imperialist powers, There sticking up for the Murder of civilians. Be they catholic or Protestant.

Peace in the North will only come through Unity of the Working Classes, Not from Sectarian violence committed by both sides. The never ending shit from both sides will need lead to anything in the north, only more violence.
Most of what happens in the north is purely Reactionary and its only through a working class movement that involves both sides of the community that peace in the north will come about.

I hope not and its not republicans doing the figure pointing. And to be clear kingsmill was one of very few reactionary sectarian killings and it has been condemned by republicans.
Nobodys has stuck up for the deaths of civilians here so please don't make it up cara.

What sectarian violence. I take it your not from Ireland? Yeah republicans hope to see the unionist working class becoming more socialist.
Whats the SPs plan of action. Wave flags?

[Cork Socialist]

I hope not and its not republicans doing the figure pointing. And to be clear kingsmill was one of very few reactionary sectarian killings and it has been condemned by republicans.
Nobodys has stuck up for the deaths of civilians here so please don't make it up cara.

What sectarian violence. I take it your not from Ireland? Yeah republicans hope to see the unionist working class becoming more socialist.
Whats the SPs plan of action. Wave flags?

I'm from Belfast actually, Also read my name it says where i'm living now xD
And how will the Unionist working class become "more socialist" as you say if groups like the IRA go around killing them, Same can be said for Loyalist groups as well btw. It just leads to more hatred between both communities.

[HEAD ICE]

I don't think unionists are going to become open to socialism or communism anytime soon though

Why only mention unionists? Make sure you add the republicans as well.

[Irish Left]

I'm from Belfast actually, Also read my name it says where i'm living now xD
And how will the Unionist working class become "more socialist" as you say if groups like the IRA go around killing them, Same can be said for Loyalist groups as well btw. It just leads to more hatred between both communities.

Christ I think you've been seriously brainwashed by the Brit PR machine who tried to turn it into a sectarian conflict. They even trained loyalists and told them to keep attacking civilian catholics to scare the IRA.

By groups like the IRSP working in the communitys. And I don't currently agree with armed struggle and would go as far as saying its actually counter productive. But I will never condemn those who risk their freedom and lives to take up arms against the occupying forces. And I will support the POWs currently being held and torture in British, Freestate, French and Lithuanian jails.
And please stop trying to compare republicans to loyalist. You know as well as me how stupid it is.

[Marxach-Léinínach]

Why only mention unionists? Make sure you add the republicans as well.
99% of Irish republicans are socialists

[Irish Left]

Why only mention unionists? Make sure you add the republicans as well.

But republicans are in socialists and have been for a long time. :)

[Cork Socialist]

Christ I think you've been seriously brainwashed by the Brit PR machine who tried to turn it into a sectarian conflict. They even trained loyalists and told them to keep attacking civilian catholics to scare the IRA.

By groups like the IRSP working in the communitys. And I don't currently agree with armed struggle and would go as far as saying its actually counter productive. But I will never condemn those who risk their freedom and lives to take up arms against the occupying forces. And I will support the POWs currently being held and torture in British, Freestate, French and Lithuanian jails.
And please stop trying to compare republicans to loyalist. You know as well as me how stupid it is.
Nice to see I have been brainwashed.

Good to see you don't support the Armed struggle, One thing I agree with you on.
So you will never condemn those that are murdering innocent people? Are you from the North actually ?(just wondering out of interest)

[Madvillainy]

99% of Irish republicans are socialists

you are literally insane.

[Irish Left]

Nice to see I have been brainwashed.

Good to see you don't support the Armed struggle, One thing I agree with you on.
So you will never condemn those that are murdering innocent people? Are you from the North actually ?(just wondering out of interest)

Yes in Belfast.

What innocent people, where the 2 soldiers and two cops in recent years innocent? And republicans have never intentionally murdered innocent civilians.

[Irish Left]

you are literally insane.

Just because he actually understand republicanism, unlike you.

[Cork Socialist]

Yes in Belfast.

What innocent people, where the 2 soldiers and two cops in recent years innocent? And republicans have never intentionally murdered innocent civilians.
They were pretty intentional when they tried to kneecap my uncle. Sorry I shouldn't bring personal shit in.

but about innocents

27 May 1990: Two Australian tourists shot dead in the Netherlands, having been mistaken for off-duty British soldiers from a base across the German border

28 February 1992: A bomb explodes at London Bridge railway station injuring 29 innocent people

1993: Two IRA bombs at opposite ends of a shopping street in Warrington, timed to go off within minutes of each other, kill two children.

Jean Mconville comes to mind also.

Also if the IRA say they don't "intentionally kill civilians" they sure as hell couldn't give a shit if it happens accidently.

[Irish Left]

They were pretty intentional when they tried to kneecap my uncle. Sorry I shouldn't bring personal shit in.

but about innocents

27 May 1990: Two Australian tourists shot dead in the Netherlands, having been mistaken for off-duty British soldiers from a base across the German border

28 February 1992: A bomb explodes at London Bridge railway station injuring 29 innocent people

1993: Two IRA bombs at opposite ends of a shopping street in Warrington, timed to go off within minutes of each other, kill two children.

Jean Mconville comes to mind also.

Also if the IRA say they don't "intentionally kill civilians" they sure as hell couldn't give a shit if it happens accidently.

No offence if your uncle was meant to be kneecapped then he must have been involved in crime.

first example, mistaken for soldiers so accident.

London don't know exact details but if no warnings given and it was the Ra then I condemn it and so would the majority of Republicans.

Don't know bout Warrington but sounds like warnings must have been given if only two died.

Jean McConville was a tout who was warned but then was caught again. But she should never have been disappeared.

The IRAs greenbook states that ops should be done so as to limit civi casualtys but its not so easy in war.

[Cork Socialist]

No offence if your uncle was meant to be kneecapped then he must have been involved in crime.

first example, mistaken for soldiers so accident.

London don't know exact details but if no warnings given and it was the Ra then I condemn it and so would the majority of Republicans.

Don't know bout Warrington but sounds like warnings must have been given if only two died.

Jean McConville was a tout who was warned but then was caught again. But she should never have been disappeared.

The IRAs greenbook states that ops should be done so as to limit civi casualtys but its not so easy in war.
My uncle was addicted to Drugs, Drugs(hard drugs anyway) are bad. Doesn't justify it at all

Mistaken for soldiers does not clean the slate and make it perfectly fine.

So its fine if warnings are given ?

about the Greenbook.Its fine to say that, But that isn't whats happened.

[Irish Left]

My uncle was addicted to Drugs, Drugs(hard drugs anyway) are bad. Doesn't justify it at all

Mistaken for soldiers does not clean the slate and make it perfectly fine.

So its fine if warnings are given ?

about the Greenbook.Its fine to say that, But that isn't whats happened.

I have to say I find it hard that they would shoot him for addiction as they mainly shot the dealers. And if it was addiction only then I condemn it. I don't support shooting dealers (apart from high level dealers) and have more time for the work of CFAD.

No not perfectly fine but it was not intentional. Im sure the soldiers who carried it out the attack highly regret what happened too.

Yes.

I agree with an army the size of the PIRA and many who joined being reactionaries to the loyalists murdering their friends and familys and being burned out of their home it was inevitable that rogues would join.

[Android]

Also if you knew about socialist republicans politics who would know that the aim is to smash the state and set up a socialist republic.

Just on this point: when I was younger I was a Socialist-Republican, Left-Republican or whatever. So I am not ignorant of the politics of such people and groups. In fact, I think I still have an account on IR.net. Admittedly I do not follow the going-ons within the Republican Movement as closely as I did when I was one.

Thankfully I have better things to do now. But I do still occasionally read the IRSP's forum and Eirigi's website.

[Irish Left]

Just on this point: when I was younger I was a Socialist-Republican, Left-Republican or whatever. So I am not ignorant of the politics of such people and groups. In fact, I think I still have an account on IR.net. Admittedly I do not follow the going-ons within the Republican Movement as closely as I did when I was one.

Thankfully I have better things to do now. But I do still occasionally read the IRSP's forum and Eirigi's website.

Comrade, can I ask again what your aim is. Do you want to see socialism in Ireland?

[Android]

Comrade, can I ask again what your aim is. Do you want to see socialism in Ireland?

I find should an approach problematic in that politics departs from the concern of realising an aim, objective, vision etc.

I start out from the opposed perspective, of the real movement of the working-class* against the commodity relations that dominate existing society. Taken to its fullest this basic dynamic can only be resolved by communism, i.e. a world human community that abolishes the law of value, states, nations etc etc.

*altho I should say I find some proponents of this perspective questionable in that they seem to fall into a sort of Hegelian world-historic outlook.

[Tim Finnegan]

99% of Irish republicans are socialists
In the same sense that Labour voters are, perhaps, but not in the sense that, say, Karl Marx was.


But as leader of that movement he is seen as the founder of of republicanism in Ireland.
Doesn't mean it's accurate, though.


No I support the IRSM. And I see no succession from the First Daíl. I do not accept British rule in Ireland and I wish to see and British rule removed.
As for you saying earlier about Britain's presence in Ireland not being imperialist of coarse it was.Good for you. But it's not either that, or licking the queen's arse.


The 6 county's are just another colony in the empire, as well as England ruling the Freestate though neo-colonialism.This strikes me as nationalist rather than Marxism understanding of colonialism.

[maumaurebel]

True when I read it again:)

[The Grey Blur]

probably the most disturbing element of the online* irish republican culture is the machismo, the fetishizing and utilisation of military language, shorthand, and the accompanying logic (eye for an eye, the worship of the soldier, martyrdom etc).

this is the language and manner i engaged in as a 14 year old provo, the idea that there are grown adults still carrying on like this a decade after it had any relevance (a decade in which the extent of the sectarian butchery and the cack-handedness of much of the violence (the republican feuds especially...17 year olds being shot in the back and paralysed for life for writing the wrong piece of graffitti or for handing a pistol to the wrong arms dump? glorious); the extent of the infiltration of the republican movement by informers etc has all come to light) is depressing, disturbing, and farcical in equal measure. The armed struggle was not a romantic combat, it was nothing to be proud of: a generation of quasi-socialist political activists, sociologically comprised of 90% young working class men and women lost their lives and political will, to the grave, or prison, or to the grinding stone of post-GFA reformist bourgeois nationalist politics. it was all just a fucking shame and a terrible waste, kingsmill is part of that- there wasn't a "good IRA" and a "bad IRA": i repeatedly have to reinforce this argument with the violent lunatics on this board, the sort who think there are "socialist" bombs and bullets ("i'll support the INLA, but not the PIRA"), it was all part of the same culture and all a product of republicanism in that period placing incoherent violence infused with romantic nationalism (which eventually boiled down in the 80s and 90s to a sort of ruthless dead-eyed nihilism, 'the long war') ahead of coherent class-based politics. you can't have warrenpoint without kingsmill, you can't have brighton without jean mcconville etcetc, if you accept armed struggle as some sort of righteous principle then you accept the heinous shit that comes with it. just try not to justify it with sectarian defenderist logic, because that is truly cretinous and has no place in socialist discussion.

*i specify 'online' as none of this shite carries over into the real world except for the knuckle-draggers who have, in an activist sense, zero relation to socialism, and very often any relation to politics at all.

[Irish Left]

I find should an approach problematic in that politics departs from the concern of realising an aim, objective, vision etc.

I start out from the opposed perspective, of the real movement of the working-class* against the commodity relations that dominate existing society. Taken to its fullest this basic dynamic can only be resolved by communism, i.e. a world human community that abolishes the law of value, states, nations etc etc.

*altho I should say I find some proponents of this perspective questionable in that they seem to fall into a sort of Hegelian world-historic outlook.

Yeah but the world won't suddenly turn communist overnight so you need to aim to turn your country communist first.

[Irish Left]

In the same sense that Labour voters are, perhaps, but not in the sense that, say, Karl Marx was.


Doesn't mean it's accurate, though.

Good for you. But it's not either that, or licking the queen's arse.

This strikes me as nationalist rather than Marxism understanding of colonialism.

Your first point is just wrong. I won't even expand its just elitist crap.

If thats nationalism I don't care. The Imperialist presence in Ireland must be removed from Ireland before a communist society can be brought about.

[Crux]

No offence if your uncle was meant to be kneecapped then he must have been involved in crime.
No offence but I think you are scum.

[Irish Left]

probably the most disturbing element of the online* irish republican culture is the machismo, the fetishizing and utilisation of military language, shorthand, and the accompanying logic (eye for an eye, the worship of the soldier, martyrdom etc).

this is the language and manner i engaged in as a 14 year old provo, the idea that there are grown adults still carrying on like this a decade after it had any relevance (a decade in which the extent of the sectarian butchery and the cack-handedness of much of the violence (the republican feuds especially...17 year olds being shot in the back and paralysed for life for writing the wrong piece of graffitti or for handing a pistol to the wrong arms dump? glorious); the extent of the infiltration of the republican movement by informers etc has all come to light) is depressing, disturbing, and farcical in equal measure. The armed struggle was not a romantic combat, it was nothing to be proud of: a generation of quasi-socialist political activists, sociologically comprised of 90% young working class men and women lost their lives and political will, to the grave, or prison, or to the grinding stone of post-GFA reformist bourgeois nationalist politics. it was all just a fucking shame and a terrible waste, kingsmill is part of that- there wasn't a "good IRA" and a "bad IRA": i repeatedly have to reinforce this argument with the violent lunatics on this board, the sort who think there are "socialist" bombs and bullets ("i'll support the INLA, but not the PIRA"), it was all part of the same culture and all a product of republicanism in that period placing incoherent violence infused with romantic nationalism (which eventually boiled down in the 80s and 90s to a sort of ruthless dead-eyed nihilism, 'the long war') ahead of coherent class-based politics. you can't have warrenpoint without kingsmill, you can't have brighton without jean mcconville etcetc, if you accept armed struggle as some sort of righteous principle then you accept the heinous shit that comes with it. just try not to justify it with sectarian defenderist logic, because that is truly cretinous and has no place in socialist discussion.

*i specify 'online' as none of this shite carries over into the real world except for the knuckle-draggers who have, in an activist sense, zero relation to socialism, and very often any relation to politics at all.

And you clearly haven't done any more research into republicanism since you where 14 judging by that post. You smell of socialist party?

[Irish Left]

No offence but I think you are scum.

I honestly couldn't care. But whys that.

[Coggeh]

Yeah but the world won't suddenly turn communist overnight so you need to aim to turn your country communist first.

Your right. The term communism means a stateless society, however before that you have a workers state which is what i think your refering to, but revolutions are not isolated events most likely when a revolution happens in ireland with will be preceeded by or followed by a revolution in britain because the trade union and working class organisations are so closely linked.

Look at what happened in Tunisia, it was followed within a matter of weeks by Algeria, Egypt, Bahrain, Syria etc Socialism in one country cannot survive and will inevitably lead back to capitalism, Soviet Union, China, Cuba etc This is why Marxism Leninism is flawed, you need a permanent revolution, link the struggle for socialism internationally.

[Crux]

I honestly couldn't care. But whys that.
This is why:
No offence if your uncle was meant to be kneecapped then he must have been involved in crime.

[Tim Finnegan]

Your first point is just wrong. I won't even expand its just elitist crap.
And I suppose you won't tell me why it's so wrong that you "won't even expand"? It does seem a rather conveniently circular set up.


If thats nationalism I don't care. The Imperialist presence in Ireland must be removed from Ireland before a communist society can be brought about.
If you can't even define the "imperialist presence" in Marxist terms, then how do you expect to win over Marxists? Or are we just supposed to defer to you on this as a matter of course?

[Irish Left]

This is why:

Yeah whats your point. The RUC didn't tackle crime in republican areas so the military did it themselves.
Those who where kneecapped where usually drug dealers or joyriders.

[Coggeh]

99% of Irish republicans are socialists

So the provo's were socialist? christ you don't even know the history of your own movement. And no 99% of republicans are not socialist, far from it.

[Coggeh]

SO who do you report crime or drug dealers to instead?
Certainly not thugs who are unaccountable to anyone, the police would be even more progressive in that sense.

[Irish Left]

And I suppose you won't tell me why it's so wrong that you "won't even expand"? It does seem a rather conveniently circular set up.


If you can't even define the "imperialist presence" in Marxist terms, then how do you expect to win over Marxists? Or are we just supposed to defer to you on this as a matter of course?

Well I recommend doing some reading into republicanism and speakiing to republicans and you will realise the majoirity are socialists.

I shouldn't need to define the Imperialist presence. A foreign government rules part of Ireland the they took forcefuly from the people. They rule it both physically and economically.
The people of the north are ruled by people they didn't elect.
Also over 5000 members of the British army are stationed in Ireland, as well as a MI5 base in Antrim. There is also a SRR active in the north. Thatd not to mention the thousands of political police.

[Irish Left]

So the provo's were socialist? christ you don't even know the history of your own movement. And no 99% of republicans are not socialist, far from it.

He said ARE which means in the present. The provos don't exist. But the majority of their vols would have been anyway.

[Irish Left]

Certainly not thugs who are unaccountable to anyone, the police would be even more progressive in that sense.

You have clearly never been living in the north or on the receiving end of the RUCs brutality.

[Tim Finnegan]

Well I recommend doing some reading into republicanism and speakiing to republicans and you will realise the majoirity are socialists.
Ahead of you on that one, and my judgement remains. "Socialist", at this point, simply means "left-social democrat", if that.


I shouldn't need to define the Imperialist presence. A foreign government rules part of Ireland the they took forcefuly from the people. They rule it both physically and economically.
The people of the north are ruled by people they didn't elect.
Also over 5000 members of the British army are stationed in Ireland, as well as a MI5 base in Antrim. There is also a SRR active in the north. Thatd not to mention the thousands of political police.
Again: that is a nationalist conception of "imperialism", not a Marxist one What about the situation you describe could not, give or take the number of trops, also be said of Scotland, Yorkshire or Cornwall? Your "imperialism" rests, at this point, almost entirely on the conviction that Ireland properly constitutes a single bourgeois nation-state, and that this is being infringed upon by another bourgeois nation-state. There is no material analysis what so ever.

(Noting, of course, that I am talking in purely contemporary terms. The British presence in Ireland in the early 20th century and before was obviously colonial.)

[Irish Left]

Ahead of you on that one, and my judgement remains. "Socialist", at this point, simply means "left-social democrat", if that.


Again: that is a nationalist conception of "imperialism", not a Marxist one What about the situation you describe could not, give or take the number of trops, also be said of Scotland, Yorkshire or Cornwall? Your "imperialism" rests, at this point, almost entirely on the conviction that Ireland properly constitutes a single bourgeois nation-state, and that this is being infringed upon by another bourgeois nation-state. There is no material analysis what so ever.

(Noting, of course, that I am talking in purely contemporary terms. The British presence in Ireland in the early 20th century and before was obviously colonial.)

Well we will clearly never agree on that so lets leave it there rather than go around in circules.

No you asked me about Ireland and I told you about Ireland. There is the SRSM in Alba. Most of the republican socialist partys have branches in Scotland. And Scotland is also in the empire though there is less resistance.

[Crux]

Yeah whats your point. The RUC didn't tackle crime in republican areas so the military did it themselves.
Those who where kneecapped where usually drug dealers or joyriders.
So what's the margin of error here? Also "joyriders"? Not that I think a bullet to the kneecap is appropriate criminal justice. Certainly not to people who only "usually" are criminals, as defined by the provo-split off of the day.

[Tim Finnegan]

No you asked me about Ireland and I told you about Ireland. There is the SRSM in Alba. Most of the republican socialist partys have branches in Scotland. And Scotland is also in the empire though there is less resistance.
So Scotland is also a colony? Then what about Yorkshire? Is that a colony, or does the fact that it is traditionally considered to be part of England disqualify it, regardless of its actual relationship to the British political and economic establishment?

If you are going to discussion imperialism as a socialist, it needs to be in terms of economic and political hegemonies based in objective material relationships, it can't simply be a quibble about the flag flying over the city chambers.

And the SRSM are, quite honestly, a bit of a joke. They signify little, if anything.

[Coggeh]

And you clearly haven't done any more research into republicanism since you where 14 judging by that post. You smell of socialist party?
Anyone who opposes individual terrorism = socialist party. We're flattered, really.:thumbup1:

[Cleansing Conspiratorial Revolutionary Flame]

While actions such as these although rare had occurred, they were directly in response to the actions of the Loyalists and their British Army supporters whom had allowed the previous set of actions against Irish Catholics to occur. Generally, these actions aren't supportable however it should be noted that these actions, specifically this one was in direct response to Loyalist slaughter, in which it was meant to deter continued Loyalist slaughter.

Those who continually accuse the 'RA of Sectarianism are silly, as the 'RA had been built out of Irish Catholic Men and Women striving for Self-Determination against Imperialism from those whom had denied them their Self-Determination and due to this struggle against Imperialism were forced into acts of violence in order to continue the struggle in the name of the people.

Speaking of which the 'RA was several organizations certain 'RA organizations however had their issues with Internal Sectarianism, however this cannot be blamed on Republicanism, as all organizations suffer from these issues. For the most part however Sectarianism had been weeded out in order for the struggle to be continued in its fullest.

For the most part though as well, most 'RA members that had committed actions that weren't justifiable were dealt with.



So the provo's were socialist? christ you don't even know the history of your own movement. And no 99% of republicans are not socialist, far from it.

The Provisionals were certainly more progressive than the forces that were maintaining continued Imperialism and the occupation of Ireland.

:rolleyes: It is much better to slander those whom had allied with the people in order to do away with Imperialism in an attempt to bring about some type of implausible Non-Violent Actions that would have utterly amounted to nothing... Isn't it? :rolleyes:

[Coggeh]

While actions such as these although rare had occurred, they were directly in response to the actions of the Loyalists and their British Army supporters whom had allowed the previous set of actions against Irish Catholics to occur. Generally, these actions aren't supportable however it should be noted that these actions, specifically this one was in direct response to Loyalist slaughter, in which it was meant to deter continued Loyalist slaughter. Yes. But understanding the nature of the movement and how it arose is not cause to support it regardless of how progressive that nature is, what it turned into was anything but progressive and unifying for the working class, which to put it bluntly is what socialists are supposed to be doing, its food for thought that so many self proclaimed marxists and socialists are rallying vehemently to defend and/or condone or even support the actions of the IRA in all its little splinters( im not refering to you as this is the first time i've probably talked to you so i don't know yet. But others.)



Those who continually accuse the 'RA of Sectarianism are silly, as the 'RA had been built out of Irish Catholic Men and Women striving for Self-Determination against Imperialism from those whom had denied them their Self-Determination and due to this struggle against Imperialism were forced into acts of violence in order to continue the struggle in the name of the people.
They are sectarian. Sectarianism of a movement is not judged by what is written down as policy but what is the effect of its actions and tactics to which we can only reply to increase the already existing divide between catholic and prodestant workers which is a direct obstacle for the cause of socialism.



Speaking of which the 'RA was several organizations certain 'RA organizations however had their issues with Internal Sectarianism, however this cannot be blamed on Republicanism, as all organizations suffer from these issues. For the most part however Sectarianism had been weeded out in order for the struggle to be continued in its fullest.
No it hasn't the republican movement is as divided as any day in the past. Could even be argued more divided since the peace process. And sectarianism has far from been "weeded" out(like they actually tried doing it and don't actually thrive from sectarian division)



For the most part though as well, most 'RA members that had committed actions that weren't justifiable were dealt with.
Thats funny because it was left to the victims of Omagh to deal with those responsible. But wouldn't it be wonderful if what you said was true? a self-regulating terrorist organisation. Fantastic.




The Provisionals were certainly more progressive than the forces that were maintaining continued Imperialism and the occupation of Ireland.

:rolleyes: It is much better to slander those whom had allied with the people in order to do away with Imperialism in an attempt to bring about some type of implausible Non-Violent Actions that would have utterly amounted to nothing... Isn't it? :rolleyes:
So your saying the provos should be supported on the basis they were more progressive than the UVF and british state? bit of a red herring there don't ya think?

If we take the point on the material basis of what was the political orientation of the ira before the provo split and what was that of the provo's the case and point of the quote from the provisional council goes a long way in showing their political "progressive" ideals:In its Easter statement of 1970 the Provisional IRA army council stated:

Irish freedom will not be won by involvement with an international movement of extreme socialism.

So anti internationalism and anti socialism = progressive. Got it.

I don't speak of "implausible" "non-violent" actions but the actions of the bolsheviks in 1917 and many others down through history. Of a mass unified workers movement against the capitalist state not some individualist terrorist organisation which uses terms like socialism whenever it suits them.

[Cleansing Conspiratorial Revolutionary Flame]

Yes. But understanding the nature of the movement and how it arose is not cause to support it regardless of how progressive that nature is, what it turned into was anything but progressive and unifying for the working class, which to put it bluntly is what socialists are supposed to be doing, its food for thought that so many self proclaimed marxists and socialists are rallying vehemently to defend and/or condone or even support the actions of the IRA in all its little splinters( im not refering to you as this is the first time i've probably talked to you so i don't know yet. But others.)


They are sectarian. Sectarianism of a movement is not judged by what is written down as policy but what is the effect of its actions and tactics to which we can only reply to increase the already existing divide between catholic and prodestant workers which is a direct obstacle for the cause of socialism.


No it hasn't the republican movement is as divided as any day in the past. Could even be argued more divided since the peace process. And sectarianism has far from been "weeded" out(like they actually tried doing it and don't actually thrive from sectarian division)


Thats funny because it was left to the victims of Omagh to deal with those responsible. But wouldn't it be wonderful if what you said was true? a self-regulating terrorist organisation. Fantastic.



So your saying the provos should be supported on the basis they were more progressive than the UVF and british state? bit of a red herring there don't ya think?

If we take the point on the material basis of what was the political orientation of the ira before the provo split and what was that of the provo's the case and point of the quote from the provisional council goes a long way in showing their political "progressive" ideals:In its Easter statement of 1970 the Provisional IRA army council stated:

Irish freedom will not be won by involvement with an international movement of extreme socialism.

So anti internationalism and anti socialism = progressive. Got it.

I don't speak of "implausible" "non-violent" actions but the actions of the bolsheviks in 1917 and many others down through history. Of a mass unified workers movement against the capitalist state not some individualist terrorist organisation which uses terms like socialism whenever it suits them.

'food for thought that so many self proclaimed marxists and socialists are rallying vehemently to defend and/or condone or even support the actions of the IRA in all its little splinters'
Certainly actions against the British State in support of the liberation of the Six Counties that are held under the yoke of British Control are to be upheld when they are actions that are capable of being supported and are taking a direct stance against the British State and the British control over Northern Ireland.

'They are sectarian. Sectarianism of a movement is not judged by what is written down as policy but what is the effect of its actions and tactics to which we can only reply to increase the already existing divide between catholic and prodestant workers which is a direct obstacle for the cause of socialism.'
:rolleyes: Obviously Protestant Workers should be regarded as equals to Catholic Workers however differentiation has to be made for those Protestants that ally themselves with the British Control and Occupation of Ireland. Of course however, these type of actions that this thread is related to shouldn't be supported as in all likelihood it has no justification and was done in a rogue-like manner in order to respond to a previous incident against Irish Catholic Workers.

'No it hasn't the republican movement is as divided as any day in the past. Could even be argued more divided since the peace process. And sectarianism has far from been "weeded" out(like they actually tried doing it and don't actually thrive from sectarian division)'

As I said, the Republican Movement blatantly has been divided in terms of overall ideas, as are all Revolutionary Movements. However, the Republican Movement has continually attempted to reconcile with certain Republican Groups, although there have been certain cases when this wasn't exactly the case-- The OIRA and its relations between other Republican Groups for example and even sadly INLA's relation to other Republican Groups at points in time.

'Thats funny because it was left to the victims of Omagh to deal with those responsible. But wouldn't it be wonderful if what you said was true? a self-regulating terrorist organisation. Fantastic. '

Obviously the victims of Omagh aren't being included within this as the RIRA is not a legitimate Irish Republican Organization and the Omagh Bombing in no shape or form was justifiable.


'orientation of the ira before the provo split and what was that of the provo's the case and point of the quote from the provisional council goes a long way in showing their political "progressive" ideals:In its Easter statement of 1970 the Provisional IRA army council stated:'

Progressive does not refer to Communist, the Provisional were more or less the progressive National Bourgeois and were certainly a better option to the British Occupational Forces and those whom were attempting to continue the British Occupation. Progressive refers to the National Bourgeois whom allow certain forms of progressiveness to occur that is moderately above Social-Democratic level and is to be accepted in order to maintain a United Front against Imperialism while Imperialism continually exists and attempts to maintain itself.

'So anti internationalism and anti socialism = progressive. Got it.'

'Anti-Internationalist'?
:lol: You're silly, the Irish Republicans had continually been allied with the Urban Guerrilla Struggle within Europe, the Liberation Struggles within Kurdistan, Palestine and in Central America.

'Anti-Socialist'?
As said-- The Provisionals were moderately Socialist.

'individualist terrorist organisation which uses terms like socialism whenever it suits them.'

:lol: Guerrilla Action against Imperialism and Capitalism that seeks to use itself as a tool in order to ally itself with the Working Class is not 'Individualist Terrorism' as it is a direct response to continued Imperialist Terrorism.

[Tim Finnegan]

I'm going to have to ask again: in what sense did the British presence in Northern Ireland in the period of 1968-1997 constitute "imperialism", in the traditional Marxist sense of the term?

[Cleansing Conspiratorial Revolutionary Flame]

I'm going to have to ask again: in what sense did the British presence in Northern Ireland in the period of 1968-1997 constitute "imperialism", in the traditional Marxist sense of the term?

As it was maintaining an Imperialist relation and separating Ireland into a British Controlled State in order to allow for the continuation of British Imperialism; Northern Ireland was and is an illegitimate state and is the result of Imperialist Social-Relations.

[Tim Finnegan]

As it was maintaining an Imperialist relation and separating Ireland into a British Controlled State in order to allow for the continuation of British Imperialism; Northern Ireland was and is an illegitimate state and is the result of Imperialist Social-Relations.
That's a summary if your position, but it's hardly a vindication of it. In what sense is the relationship imperialist? In what sense is a "British controlled state" distinct from a state which might happen to include Britain and a portion of Ireland? In what sense is the Northern Irish portion of the British state any less "legitimate" than the rest of the British state?

[Cleansing Conspiratorial Revolutionary Flame]

That's a summary if your position, but it's hardly a vindication of it. In what sense is the relationship imperialist? In what sense is a "British controlled state" distinct from a state which might happen to include Britain and a portion of Ireland? In what sense is the Northern Irish portion of the British state any less "legitimate" than the rest of the British state?

'In what sense is the relationship imperialist? '
In the sense that it is a continuation of the occupation of Ireland that has occurred throughout history by England and has ensured that Ireland cannot be a united and self-determined and be Ireland; Northern Ireland continues this legacy. The English use Northern Ireland in order to maintain what is left of their Imperialist status as they lack the majority of their former British Empire.
'In what sense is a "British controlled state" distinct from a state which might happen to include Britain and a portion of Ireland? '
The inclusion of the occupied portion of Ireland is a British Controlled State it is not an 'inclusion' in a sense as it is simply the maintaining of a Imperialist Occupation and should be regarded as such; In the same sense that if a 'Small Portion' of India were included it would be noted as a remaining Imperialist legacy and occupation of the former British Empire.
'In what sense is the Northern Irish portion of the British state any less "legitimate" than the rest of the British state?'
As Northern Ireland is an occupied territory by the United Kingdom and it is a result of British Imperialism that it is divided; It doesn't allow for Ireland to be Self-Determined and forces the Irish in the Occupied Counties into the grips of British Imperialism without dignity.

Territories that maintain these Imperialist Relations are utterly Imperialist and should be regarded as such.

[fionntan]

No offence but I think you are scum.


Here we go my daddy was a mercinary and was sent home from Ireland rapped in a black bag so there fore i hate the Irish...:laugh: How your not banned from this board for your anti Irish rants is beyond me scumbag.

[fionntan]

P.S UP THE RA...

Victory to the POWS..

Beir Bua..

[t.shonku]

Peoples please don't forget the kind of attrocities the British imperialists have carried out against the Irish people for hundreds of years.

And now the Brits are dropping bombs over Libya.



Originally posted by fionntan

How your not banned from this board for your anti Irish rants is beyond me scumbag.


Well Majakovskij hates every body and any body who doesn't agree with him, don't waste your time on him, I have given up on him long ago, he is in my ignore list

[fionntan]

Is this the talk of "Nationalists"??

http://www.revleft.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=8224&d=1307878410

[Cork Socialist]

In my opinion a Marxist should oppose individual terrorism on the basis that it is largely counter-productive.

http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/Trotsky/againstterrorframe.htm
I thought this was a good article on terrorism. It doesn't deal with the North, but I think a lot of what it says is correct.

In my opinion the actions of the IRA is counter productive to building Working class unity in the North and only leads to reactionary violence from both sides. They have not and will not unite the Working class people of the North.

[Coggeh]

Is this the talk of "Nationalists"??

http://www.revleft.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=8224&d=1307878410

Yes.

[fionntan]

Damian risked life and libertey for the likes of you to...Tut Tut if you were half the man he is half the activist and communist he is i could talk to you..

[Crux]

Here we go my daddy was a mercinary and was sent home from Ireland rapped in a black bag so there fore i hate the Irish...:laugh: How your not banned from this board for your anti Irish rants is beyond me scumbag.
Because kneecapping is so fun, mr hard-man. Because it only happens to criminals, am I right? Fuck off. Also you conveniently ignore the irish posters who disagree with your posturing machismo. So let me guess, they are "self-hating irish"?

[Cork Socialist]

Damian risked life and libertey for the likes of you to...Tut Tut if you were half the man he is half the activist and communist he is i could talk to you..
Running around in a balaclava with a gun does not make you some sort of super communist .......

[Tim Finnegan]

'In what sense is the relationship imperialist? '
In the sense that it is a continuation of the occupation of Ireland that has occurred throughout history by England and has ensured that Ireland cannot be a united and self-determined and be Ireland; Northern Ireland continues this legacy. The English use Northern Ireland in order to maintain what is left of their Imperialist status as they lack the majority of their former British Empire.
Not an answer. You are merely continuing to assert, on purely nationalist grounds, that "England" is infringing upon Irish "self-determination", which does not constitute the imperialist social relations that you so very specifically stressed.

(Not that I don't think that British intransigence in the North has nothing to do with a desperate attempt to cling to imperial glory, I just don't think that constitutes, in itself, imperialism in the Marxist sense of the word.)


'In what sense is a "British controlled state" distinct from a state which might happen to include Britain and a portion of Ireland? '
The inclusion of the occupied portion of Ireland is a British Controlled State it is not an 'inclusion' in a sense as it is simply the maintaining of a Imperialist Occupation and should be regarded as such; In the same sense that if a 'Small Portion' of India were included it would be noted as a remaining Imperialist legacy and occupation of the former British Empire.If that portion of India was a fully participating democrat constituent of the British state- and with a regional assembly to boot- I'd honestly have a hard time considering it to be an "imperial" occupation. Again, you're arguing on nationalistic grounds, not Marxist ones.



'In what sense is the Northern Irish portion of the British state any less "legitimate" than the rest of the British state?'
As Northern Ireland is an occupied territory by the United Kingdom and it is a result of British Imperialism that it is divided; It doesn't allow for Ireland to be Self-Determined and forces the Irish in the Occupied Counties into the grips of British Imperialism without dignity."National self-determination" is, by its very nature, a bourgeois concept, not a Marxist one, particularly when posed in such a manner as to pose the abstract god of Nation as outranking the actual constituents- the majority of the inhabitants of Northern Ireland, you will remember, being Unionists.

For Marxists, the ideal of nation-as-state is one which exists to legitimise bourgeois rule, and all the more so when it is declared in contradiction to the will of the masses. You are, in effect, simply opting for the Irish bourgeoisie over the British bourgeoisie, on the grounds that they are not foreign.

[Cleansing Conspiratorial Revolutionary Flame]

Running around in a balaclava with a gun does not make you some sort of super communist .......

Certainly it does when one is directly resisting the British Occupation of Six Counties within Ireland and allowing for Irish Working Class Communities to emancipate themselves through the 'RA.



Because kneecapping is so fun, mr hard-man. Because it only happens to criminals, am I right? Fuck off. Also you conveniently ignore the irish posters who disagree with your posturing machismo. So let me guess, they are "self-hating irish"?

'Because kneecapping is so fun'
Kneecapping is a form of Community Justice administered by the 'RA against Drug Traffickers, Sex Offenders and other Criminals. Certainly it isn't 'fun' however but within the context of Irish Working Class communities directly having a stance against crime in their communities it is 'Justice.'

[t.shonku]

Running around in a balaclava with a gun does not make you some sort of super communist .......


So what do you suggest ????


Prayer and petition ??????

Gandhian policy of prayer and petition has failed in India and the working class has been betrayed , the psudo independence of India via "non-violent" Gandhian policy has failed . We don't want to see that happening to Ireland


Ireland needs real independence ok, not some kind of power transfer, but the real independence, and only way to get it is by a Protracted Peoples War.


There is nothing wrong about organising an armed corps to fend of imperialists , it is about survival of the Irish people and preservation of Irish working class, there is nothing wrong about using armed tactics against trigger happy British Imperialist

[Tim Finnegan]

Why is that the more deeply embedded you people become in bourgeois nationalist ideology, the more vehemently "revolutionary" your rhetoric becomes? I can't help but think there's a degree of self-concious compensation going on.

[Cleansing Conspiratorial Revolutionary Flame]

Why is that the more deeply embedded you people become in bourgeois nationalist ideology, the more vehemently "revolutionary" your rhetoric becomes? I can't help but think there's a degree of self-concious compensation going on.

'bourgeois nationalist ideology'
Despite what you may believe-- Proletarian Nationalism in which Exploited Nationalities, Groups and Communities seek to rise against Imperialism is not 'Bourgeois'.
'vehemently "revolutionary" your rhetoric becomes? '
Proletarian Nationalism against existing Imperialism is a keypoint in Revolutionary Struggle, as it allows for Imperialism to be reverted and allows for the Proletariat to emancipate themselves from the previously existing Social Relations.

[Cork Socialist]

So what do you suggest ????


Prayer and petition ??????

Gandhian policy of prayer and petition has failed in India and the working class has been betrayed , the psudo independence of India via "non-violent" Gandhian policy has failed . We don't want to see that happening to Ireland


Ireland needs real independence ok, not some kind of power transfer, but the real independence, and only way to get it is by a Protracted Peoples War.


There is nothing wrong about organising an armed corps to fend of imperialists , it is about survival of the Irish people and preservation of Irish working class, there is nothing wrong about using armed tactics against trigger happy British Imperialist
If you believe in any way that the majority of those that do run around in balaclavas actually give a damn about socialism then damn....

The armed struggle has got very little support from the majority of the working class, This is not a peoples war. It is individual terrorism in the guise of bourgeoisie nationalism. Most republicans only pay lip service to the idea of socialism.

What do I suggest, A mass labour movement with people from both sides of the communities through the Trade Unions. It would unite the Working class instead of what is happening now.

[Aurora]

Is this the talk of "Nationalists"??

http://www.revleft.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=8224&d=1307878410
Yes, not a single mention of the working class or socialism. Which is exactly the sort of crap i'd expect from the 32's, you have 10 times less mention of socialism on your website than PSF. Hell even the PSF website has less pictures of it's members running round with the flag of the irish state than your local sections!

Ireland needs real independence ok, not some kind of power transfer, but the real independence, and only way to get it is by a Protracted Peoples War.
:lol::lol::lol:
Im so glad clowns like you don't exist outside the internet.

[Hoggy_RS]

If you believe in any way that the majority of those that do run around in balaclavas actually give a damn about socialism then damn....

The armed struggle has got very little support from the majority of the working class, This is not a peoples war. It is individual terrorism in the guise of bourgeoisie nationalism. Most republicans only pay lip service to the idea of socialism.

What do I suggest, A mass labour movement with people from both sides of the communities through the Trade Unions. It would unite the Working class instead of what is happening now.
Wheres the proof of this? Typical shite from somone from the SP, everyone but ye is a fake socialist or a sectarian. Elitist snobs.

How do you suggest about forming a mass labour movement when the SP constantly disregards the whole republican movement as sectarian. You're never going to win support in republican areas when you're telling everyone that everything they have believed is actually sectarian.

Yer future is as the new stickies of Leinster House, flirting around the Dáil for a while till ye inevitably go back to the Labour Party.

[Hoggy_RS]

So the provo's were socialist? christ you don't even know the history of your own movement. And no 99% of republicans are not socialist, far from it.
99% aren't socialist? Why do they claim to be? To ride the coat tails of socialisms huge popularity?:lol:

You haven't a clue kid, thank christ I got out of the SP before I ended up so blind. I'll never forget the discussions of enticing DUP members to join the SP, how it was sectarian to protest against British naval ships in Cork and how Eirigi were trying to ignite sectarian war by causing riots.

What an enlightening experience it was!

[Cleansing Conspiratorial Revolutionary Flame]

Yes, not a single mention of the working class or socialism. Which is exactly the sort of crap i'd expect from the 32's, you have 10 times less mention of socialism on your website than PSF. Hell even the PSF website has less pictures of it's members running round with the flag of the irish state than your local sections!

:lol::lol::lol:
Im so glad clowns like you don't exist outside the internet.
'Yes, not a single mention of the working class or socialism. '

Opposing Neo-Colonialism and Imperialist relations within Ireland and demanding a United Irish State that is controlled by the Working Class of Ireland and independent from the British is Socialist and in the interests of the Working Class.

You're silly.

'Which is exactly the sort of crap i'd expect from the 32's'

I'm unsure what you're referring to by this comment. :rolleyes: As more or less it lacks material and is just a silly comment to begin with.

'PSF website has less pictures of it's members running round with the flag of the irish state than your local sections!'

The Irish Tricolor is used as a symbol against British Imperialism and is certainly to be upheld against the British State. Although, the Starry Plough is a by far more fitting Irish Working Class Flag.

'Im so glad clowns like you don't exist outside the internet.'
As if pushing for continual resistance towards Neo-Colonial and Imperialist relations is 'Clownish'. :lol:

[Hoggy_RS]

The 32s are not a political party. They are a pressure group concerned with Irelands national soveirgnty and the end of imperialism in Ireland. As such they don't seem to concern themselves with economic issues hence them having no clear indication of a support for socialism. Many of their members are socialists but I think they probably hold on to the idea of Brits out first.

[Aurora]

Opposing Neo-Colonialism and Imperialist relations within Ireland and demanding a United Irish State that is controlled by the Working Class of Ireland and independent from the British is Socialist and in the interests of the Working Class.
You were asked by Tim to explain clearly how the relations in the North are imperialist and youve failed to do so, all you could manage was some vague nationalist claptrap about british oppression of ireland, no mention of imperialism as a world system and the export of finance capital from developed countries to underdeveloped for extraction of superprofits etc etc
Now you bring in neo-colonialism, can you show how this neo-colonialism manifests itself in the North? or perhaps even in the South? after all the majority of trade in the South is with Britain.
As for the other stuff perhaps you should check out the 32csm website theres no mention of any of that however much you may want there to be. i don't know why your even trying to defend the 32's one of their members on this site has already admitted that they arent socialist.




The Irish Tricolor is used as a symbol against British Imperialism and is certainly to be upheld against the British State. Although, the Starry Plough is a by far more fitting Irish Working Class Flag.
The Irish Tricolour is the symbol of the irish capitalist state. Socialists carry the red flag.



As if pushing for continual resistance towards Neo-Colonial and Imperialist relations is 'Clownish'. :lol:
As if calling for a tactic used in the vast majority peasant underdeveloped 1940's China to be used in one of the most developed capitalist countries with no peasantry in 2011 is anything but the ramblings of a delusional dumbass.

[Cleansing Conspiratorial Revolutionary Flame]

You were asked by Tim to explain clearly how the relations in the North are imperialist and youve failed to do so, all you could manage was some vague nationalist claptrap about british oppression of ireland, no mention of imperialism as a world system and the export of finance capital from developed countries to underdeveloped for extraction of superprofits etc etc
Now you bring in neo-colonialism, can you show how this neo-colonialism manifests itself in the North? or perhaps even in the South? after all the majority of trade in the South is with Britain.
As for the other stuff perhaps you should check out the 32csm website theres no mention of any of that however much you may want there to be. i don't know why your even trying to defend the 32's one of their members on this site has already admitted that they arent socialist.



The Irish Tricolour is the symbol of the irish capitalist state. Socialists carry the red flag.



As if calling for a tactic used in the vast majority peasant underdeveloped 1940's China to be used in one of the most developed capitalist countries with no peasantry in 2011 is anything but the ramblings of a delusional dumbass.
'You were asked by Tim to explain clearly how the relations in the North are imperialist and youve failed to do so'
:lol: See my previous post, the British partition of Ireland historically was attempting and is attempting to maintain the existing Colonial Portions of the former British Empire.
'no mention of imperialism as a world system and the export of finance capital from developed countries to underdeveloped for extraction of superprofits etc etc'
:rolleyes: You're obviously not realizing that Ireland has been subjected to direct Military Imperialism from Britain for Hundreds of Years and former Colonial and Imperialist relations are upheld through the existence of a British controlled divided Ireland.
'Now you bring in neo-colonialism, can you show how this neo-colonialism manifests itself in the North? '
Neo-Colonial relations manifest themselves with the existence of Northern Ireland, as the existence of Northern Ireland seeks to maintain a portion of the former British Empire.
'e. i don't know why your even trying to defend the 32's one of their members on this site has already admitted that they arent socialist.'
:rolleyes: I did not defend the 32CSM, while you may believe that I did, I simply defended and upheld Irish Republicanism as an effective means of opposition towards Imperialist Relations from Britain.

'The Irish Tricolour is the symbol of the irish capitalist state. Socialists carry the red flag.'

1.) The Irish Tricolour is a Symbol of an Independent Ireland which is in opposition to British Imperialism directed towards Northern Ireland and represents the unity between the Irish People.
2.) Socialists not only carry the Red Flag, in opposition towards Imperialism they carry various Flags that are in line with the struggle against Imperialism, not simply the Red Flag only.

'As if calling for a tactic used in the vast majority peasant underdeveloped 1940's China to be used in one of the most developed capitalist countries with no peasantry in 2011 is anything but the ramblings of a delusional dumbass.'

Actually, Protracted Struggles in the Maoist sense were beginning to be understood within the Trouble's within Ireland to a certain degree and were being used in order to gain objective positions within Rural Communities within Ireland and then use these to continuously strike British Forces with various degrees of success. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Lynagh)

Protracted Struggles are not simply limited to '1940's China' in the same sense that a Vanguard Movement is not simply limited to '1910's Russia.' As easily it can be altered in order to ensure that it is fitting within the current situation.

Typical Dogmatic Trotskyist that has a certain mythical belief towards a Mass Party without action involving communities against the Bourgeois State in order to bring about Proletarian Control and show the fallibility of the Bourgeois State whilst organizing the Mass Party.

Certainly according to this-- The Bolshevik's and Lenin should not have allowed for Revolutionary Action between the 1905 Revolution and the Revolution of 1917 as it wasn't a 'Mass Party' Action, nor should various other Revolutionaries have acted between the times of 'Mass Party' Action, as it is 'Counter-Productive.'

This especially means that those within Palestine have no right to defend themselves from Israeli Imperialism towards their communities and their communities have no right to rise against Imperialism as they have not organized a 'Mass Proletarian Party' and are incorporating forces of the National Bourgeois. :rolleyes: Obviously those within Palestine according to this logic should simply be open towards Zionist Imperialism and allow for their lands to be plundered due to them not being 'Organized' and most actions being spontaneous and 'Unorganized.'

Imperialism is Imperialism and the Northern Irish (British) State much like the Zionist State and other States are Imperialist and should be recognized as such and those combating them should be upheld as it is against Imperialist Relations and seeks to effectively dismantle these relations.

[t.shonku]

The armed struggle has got very little support from the majority of the working class, This is not a peoples war. It is individual terrorism in the guise of bourgeoisie nationalism. Most republicans only pay lip service to the idea of socialism.




I heard that Taxi Unions in Ireland used to help the IRA in transporting weapons and they used to help em !

[Aurora]

the British partition of Ireland historically was attempting and is attempting to maintain the existing Colonial Portions of the former British Empire.
...
You're obviously not realizing that Ireland has been subjected to direct Military Imperialism from Britain for Hundreds of Years and former Colonial and Imperialist relations are upheld through the existence of a British controlled divided Ireland.
...
Neo-Colonial relations manifest themselves with the existence of Northern Ireland, as the existence of Northern Ireland seeks to maintain a portion of the former British Empire.
Right, so imperialism exists because imperialism exists. Neo-colonialism exists because it exists. Wonderful analysis. You even say it yourself "Imperialism is Imperialism"

Your just bandying around terms you don't understand.

[Cleansing Conspiratorial Revolutionary Flame]

Right, so imperialism exists because imperialism exists. Neo-colonialism exists because it exists. Wonderful analysis. You even say it yourself "Imperialism is Imperialism"

Your just bandying around terms you don't understand.

'Right, so imperialism exists because imperialism exists. Neo-colonialism exists because it exists'


See: 'British partition of Ireland historically was attempting and is attempting to maintain the existing Colonial Portions of the former British Empire.'
Imperialist Relations within Ireland continue to exist due to Britain attempting to maintain a small portion of their former Empire. (Northern Ireland) :rolleyes:


' Wonderful analysis. You even say it yourself "Imperialism is Imperialism"'
Imperialism is indeed Imperialism; Imperialism directed against Palestine from Zionists is Imperialism in the same sense that Britain has continually attempted to secure its domination over Ireland. :rolleyes:


'Your just bandying around terms you don't understand'
You're silly and not reading my comments fully.

[Coggeh]

99% aren't socialist? Why do they claim to be? To ride the coat tails of socialisms huge popularity?:lol:
Read the post i was responding to and stop jumping the gun. The claim was made 99% of republicans are socialist. I was merely saying that it was wrong which is something i'm sure you'll agree with.


You haven't a clue kid, thank christ I got out of the SP before I ended up so blind. I'll never forget the discussions of enticing DUP members to join the SP, how it was sectarian to protest against British naval ships in Cork and how Eirigi were trying to ignite sectarian war by causing riots.
What discussions were these? Because we don't speak of enticing DUP members. Maybe you got it mixed up with enticing prodestant workers? because we don't call for enticing members from the DUP however speaking of voters of the DUP of course we do maybe that was the mix up.



What an enlightening experience it was!

The 32s are not a political party. They are a pressure group concerned with Irelands national soveirgnty and the end of imperialism in Ireland. As such they don't seem to concern themselves with economic issues hence them having no clear indication of a support for socialism. Many of their members are socialists but I think they probably hold on to the idea of Brits out first.
It doesn't matter if they are a political party or a pressure group they remain the political wing of the scumbag real ira. There remains no defense for their actions in the present and the past. We are not stupid we know the origins of the republican struggle : anti-imperialism etc which are progressive in anysense. But the indisputable fact remains, the republican struggle has only set back the struggle for working class unity and socialism since the troubles began. There is now a growing oppisition to the killing of british troops, psni officers etc from both the catholic and prodestant communities in the north against but republican and unionists "dissidents". We can see as such by the mass of people protesting against such actions in the recent years and at the time when the govt is made up of the traditional sectarian parties implementing the cuts only to bang the sectarian drums during election time only a socialist programme can sway the masses of people towards unity against the reactionary SF and DUP and the capitalist state.

[Jolly Red Giant]

This thread is the best giggle I have had in a long time - God, I love the internet warriors of the republican left - keep it up people - I need a good laugh every now and again :rolleyes:

[Tim Finnegan]

Despite what you may believe-- Proletarian Nationalism in which Exploited Nationalities, Groups and Communities seek to rise against Imperialism is not 'Bourgeois'.
Neither of these things have any basis in materialist class-analysis. They are petty bourgeois "underdog" nationalism wearing the borrowed garments of class struggle.


Proletarian Nationalism against existing Imperialism is a keypoint in Revolutionary Struggle, as it allows for Imperialism to be reverted and allows for the Proletariat to emancipate themselves from the previously existing Social Relations.You still haven't explained the basis on which you claim such social relations in Northern Ireland are "imperialist". (Frankly, I find the idea that "imperial social relations" are distinct from other capitalist social relations to be a laughable misinterpretation of Marxist thought to begin with, but we can set that aside for now...)


I heard that Taxi Unions in Ireland used to help the IRA in transporting weapons and they used to help em !
Could you have started any more badly than that if you'd tried?

[t.shonku]

Could you have started any more badly than that if you'd tried?

I heard this from a book by Mcpherson

[Niall]

If you believe in any way that the majority of those that do run around in balaclavas actually give a damn about socialism then damn....

The armed struggle has got very little support from the majority of the working class, This is not a peoples war. It is individual terrorism in the guise of bourgeoisie nationalism. Most republicans only pay lip service to the idea of socialism.

What do I suggest, A mass labour movement with people from both sides of the communities through the Trade Unions. It would unite the Working class instead of what is happening now.

didnt realise you knew all republicans. I am gettig tired of people here saying that "people who run around in balaclavas dont give a damn about socialism". Really, how many of them do you know well enough to make that statement.

Back on topic, I thought everyone knew it was the IRA that carried out this attack. I grew up under that impression anyhow

[Hoggy_RS]

Read the post i was responding to and stop jumping the gun. The claim was made 99% of republicans are socialist. I was merely saying that it was wrong which is something i'm sure you'll agree with.
My mistake. Sorry kid.


What discussions were these? Because we don't speak of enticing DUP members. Maybe you got it mixed up with enticing prodestant workers? because we don't call for enticing members from the DUP however speaking of voters of the DUP of course we do maybe that was the mix up.
The DUP thing came up when we were talking about the 'turmoil' in the DUP when Peter Robinsons wife was playing away. Some fella clearly asked what the best way to entice DUP members to the SP.



It doesn't matter if they are a political party or a pressure group they remain the political wing of the scumbag real ira. There remains no defense for their actions in the present and the past. We are not stupid we know the origins of the republican struggle : anti-imperialism etc which are progressive in anysense. But the indisputable fact remains, the republican struggle has only set back the struggle for working class unity and socialism since the troubles began. There is now a growing oppisition to the killing of british troops, psni officers etc from both the catholic and prodestant communities in the north against but republican and unionists "dissidents". We can see as such by the mass of people protesting against such actions in the recent years and at the time when the govt is made up of the traditional sectarian parties implementing the cuts only to bang the sectarian drums during election time only a socialist programme can sway the masses of people towards unity against the reactionary SF and DUP and the capitalist state.
I wasn't defending the actions of the Real IRA, merely giving an explanation to why they gave no talk of socialism in their literature. I know 32s in Cork who are certainly socialist but have also seen a statement from their Dublin cumann that was extremely neo-liberal(criticising the idea of raising Ireland corporation tax).

How is it indisputable that republican struggle has set back the cause of socialism? If republicans had never taken up arms against loyalists and the British state, many in the North would still be living in the state that they lived in the 1950's. The NICRA only achieved so much, it was the revolutionary acts of a certain section of society that made the northern irish state a much more equal place. Anti-imperialist struggle is never wrong.

I am a so-called 'dissident' republican and I don't support the killing of British soldiers and police officers at this time. However, I don't support revisionism on the subject and there was a time where it was a correct tactic to attack the British forces.

The IRSP and Eirigi support a socialist programme and have long been critical of the sectarian cut up of NI politics.

[Hoggy_RS]

didnt realise you knew all republicans. I am gettig tired of people here saying that "people who run around in balaclavas dont give a damn about socialism". Really, how many of them do you know well enough to make that statement.

Back on topic, I thought everyone knew it was the IRA that carried out this attack. I grew up under that impression anyhow

I suppose this is just confirmation of it. Certainly a dark day for republicanism.

[Irish Left]

My mistake. Sorry kid.


The DUP thing came up when we were talking about the 'turmoil' in the DUP when Peter Robinsons wife was playing away. Some fella clearly asked what the best way to entice DUP members to the SP.



I wasn't defending the actions of the Real IRA, merely giving an explanation to why they gave no talk of socialism in their literature. I know 32s in Cork who are certainly socialist but have also seen a statement from their Dublin cumann that was extremely neo-liberal(criticising the idea of raising Ireland corporation tax).

How is it indisputable that republican struggle has set back the cause of socialism? If republicans had never taken up arms against loyalists and the British state, many in the North would still be living in the state that they lived in the 1950's. The NICRA only achieved so much, it was the revolutionary acts of a certain section of society that made the northern irish state a much more equal place. Anti-imperialist struggle is never wrong.

I am a so-called 'dissident' republican and I don't support the killing of British soldiers and police officers at this time. However, I don't support revisionism on the subject and there was a time where it was a correct tactic to attack the British forces.

The IRSP and Eirigi support a socialist programme and have long been critical of the sectarian cut up of NI politics.

How you can keep debating with these people is beyond me lol. They near made my head explode with their crap.

[Hoggy_RS]

How you can keep debating with these people is beyond me lol. They near made my head explode with their crap.
Its tiring stuff, im off to ir.net! :laugh:

[Coggeh]

My mistake. Sorry kid.

No bother.


The DUP thing came up when we were talking about the 'turmoil' in the DUP when Peter Robinsons wife was playing away. Some fella clearly asked what the best way to entice DUP members to the SP.

I can't honestly say I remember that but i'm not denying it could have happened. Regardless, it is not the policy of the SP to search out DUP members and "entice" them away from the DUP. But should a former DUP member join the SP because they support our idea's then I see no problem with that similarly with any other party.



I wasn't defending the actions of the Real IRA, merely giving an explanation to why they gave no talk of socialism in their literature. I know 32s in Cork who are certainly socialist but have also seen a statement from their Dublin cumann that was extremely neo-liberal(criticising the idea of raising Ireland corporation tax).

What good is it, being a socialist in an organisation with publicly doesn't even mention socialism? I couldn't give a fiddlers how many of their members claim socialist beliefs it doesn't change the fact that the organisation is not a socialist organisation. It would be a different matter if the 32's were a mass workers organisation with non socialist policies but many socialist members but its not.



How is it indisputable that republican struggle has set back the cause of socialism?
It is question of tactics which people keep ignoring here. Individual terrorism is a counter productive tactic in terms of working class unity and the socialist struggle, it hasn't done much for republicanism either in case people didn't notice.

If republicans had never taken up arms against loyalists and the British state, many in the North would still be living in the state that they lived in the 1950's. The NICRA only achieved so much, it was the revolutionary acts of a certain section of society that made the northern irish state a much more equal place. Anti-imperialist struggle is never wrong.
Bollocks. Republicans kept laying claim to any struggle in the north which benefited working class people but lets look at what at the facts:
NHS: Labour movement
Free Education: Labour movement
Defeat of water charges: Labour movement ETC ETC ETC

Even the battle of the bogside was a mass struggle that achieved many partial reforms (although with leadership from trade unions it could have achieved so much more. This had nothing to do with the taking up of arms from the IRA or anyone else.
Now, lets look at what was achieved because of the tactics of individual terrorism:
1.Heightening of sectarian tensions,
2.Divided the working class,
3. A police state easily brought into being by the ruling class because of republican and unionist paramilitaries.
4.Undermining of real struggles

Where were the dissident organisations when class room assistants were being wiped out by the SF/DUP govt? where are they now when both prodestant and catholic workers are up against a full out attack on those conditions you claim the republican using armed tactics won?

You constantly attack the SP from ignoring the national question (we clearly don't otherwise i wouldn't be here arguing) a but your the ones doing the ignoring, ignoring of the real issues today in Northern Ireland.



I am a so-called 'dissident' republican and I don't support the killing of British soldiers and police officers at this time. However, I don't support revisionism on the subject and there was a time where it was a correct tactic to attack the British forces.
Look at it this way. The IRSP lays claim to be the offspring of the ISRP(politically not organically) and thus the inherits of Connolly's ideas. Yet the ICA was not an organisation that went out carrying out individual terroist acts against police officers or members of the british army in the name of overthrowing capitalism or ousting british imperialism. It was firstly a defense organisation for workers struggles something every marxist organisation supports when one is truely needed this was not nor ever was the purpose of the INLA.
They were not an organisation which hid its face and carried out bombings and murders which in often times involved civilians which according to the University of Ulster's Sutton database the INLA's deathtrail was 34% civilians not exactly an acceptable percentage.



The IRSP and Eirigi support a socialist programme and have long been critical of the sectarian cut up of NI politics.
I'm sure they have. But look at it this way: a trade union which is the traditional organ of working class struggle it contains both prodestant and catholic workers, ones from republican and unionist backgrounds. It is an organ of class unity among the divide and is absolutely necessary for the workers struggle and the struggle for socialism. With the correct leadership and ideas it is capable of overthrowing capitalism and is the only movement capable of doing so. Now do you honestly think a republican or a unionist organisation with a socialist tongue can hope to become the political voice for a socialist alternative in a setting where working class unity is binded only by class interests and not any other.

[pastradamus]

I heard that Taxi Unions in Ireland used to help the IRA in transporting weapons and they used to help em !

I've never heard of this. No Taxi Union in Ireland ever advised its members to transport arms for the IRA. The majority of Taxi Unions in Ireland are actually quite reactionary anyway so where ever you heard this from - its complete crap.

[pastradamus]

What good is it, being a socialist in an organisation with publicly doesn't even mention socialism? I couldn't give a fiddlers how many of their members claim socialist beliefs it doesn't change the fact that the organisation is not a socialist organisation. It would be a different matter if the 32's were a mass workers organisation with non socialist policies but many socialist members but its not.


An organisation whose only policy seems to be that of the whole "national question" and not socialism cannot ever claim to be on the side of a working class movement. Its members are not socialists but just a group of old republicans with traditional reactionary interests like those of the PIRA an Sinn Fein. They cannot claim to be Socialists and they dont.

[t.shonku]

I've never heard of this. No Taxi Union in Ireland ever advised its members to transport arms for the IRA. The majority of Taxi Unions in Ireland are actually quite reactionary anyway so where ever you heard this from - its complete crap.



Actually I am not an Irish and have never been to Ireland, most info I have is from books and tales of peoples. I actually read the whole taxi thing in a book by McPherson.

Anyways I want to know whether if IRA have any support amongst working class? Because if they don’t have how the hell are they still around and fighting for such a long time !, they must have support of some kind, after all it is the basics of guerrilla struggle.
I have heard that IRA used to steal blasting caps and detonators from construction sites, does that mean that they had sympathizers amongst construction workers? I once also heard that an IRA sympathizer living in USA who used to work in some sort of US defence company was caught smuggling proximity fuze technology into Ireland the guy had a Phd , now obviously my second question arises and that is, does IRA have support amongst students and University scholars?, after all they are quite ingenious guerrilla group ! I remember an American author in his book said “IRA has a lot of misguided Phd’s” , is that true that IRA has a lot of support from University geniuses ? Another important thing is that, can you give me a description of condition in rural areas of Ireland? Can you tell me some thing about peasant class there? Does IRA have their support?


I also would want to know how much change has come to today’s Ireland when you compare it with 70s and 80s? The western media claims that Ireland is in some kind of a tech boom and economic boom ( off course I don’t believe a word stupid western media says, I still think that Ireland is deprived and will continue to be until and unless the British influence and British occupation ends).Now after the economic meldown every where is there any chance that the IRA will make a comeback?



Any ways I personally have always admired and respected IRA for their bravery, tenacity and ingenuity , I like the fact that they have been fighting against the British Empire for such a long time and they still haven’t got defeated. I think that they are socialist ( at least some if not all) , do you people remember two IRA men who were caught in Latin America for helping Communist guerrillas there in building stuffs.

[Niall]

Actually I am not an Irish and have never been to Ireland, most info I have is from books and tales of peoples. I actually read the whole taxi thing in a book by McPherson.

Anyways I want to know whether if IRA have any support amongst working class? Because if they don’t have how the hell are they still around and fighting for such a long time !, they must have support of some kind, after all it is the basics of guerrilla struggle.
I have heard that IRA used to steal blasting caps and detonators from construction sites, does that mean that they had sympathizers amongst construction workers? I once also heard that an IRA sympathizer living in USA who used to work in some sort of US defence company was caught smuggling proximity fuze technology into Ireland the guy had a Phd , now obviously my second question arises and that is, does IRA have support amongst students and University scholars?, after all they are quite ingenious guerrilla group ! I remember an American author in his book said “IRA has a lot of misguided Phd’s” , is that true that IRA has a lot of support from University geniuses ? Another important thing is that, can you give me a description of condition in rural areas of Ireland? Can you tell me some thing about peasant class there? Does IRA have their support?


I also would want to know how much change has come to today’s Ireland when you compare it with 70s and 80s? The western media claims that Ireland is in some kind of a tech boom and economic boom ( off course I don’t believe a word stupid western media says, I still think that Ireland is deprived and will continue to be until and unless the British influence and British occupation ends).Now after the economic meldown every where is there any chance that the IRA will make a comeback?



Any ways I personally have always admired and respected IRA for their bravery, tenacity and ingenuity , I like the fact that they have been fighting against the British Empire for such a long time and they still haven’t got defeated. I think that they are socialist ( at least some if not all) , do you people remember two IRA men who were caught in Latin America for helping Communist guerrillas there in building stuffs.

are you on about colombia? If so it was three men

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colombia_Three

[pastradamus]

Anyways I want to know whether if IRA have any support amongst working class? Because if they don’t have how the hell are they still around and fighting for such a long time !, they must have support of some kind, after all it is the basics of guerrilla struggle.

Well, first you must look at which IRA you are talking about?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuity_Irish_Republican_Army
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_IRA
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provisional_IRA

The Provisional IRA would have been the biggest group, with the arms, technology and support - but they are no longer around as they folded after the good friday agreement. The current IRA are the "continuity IRA", "Real IRA" and Oglaidh na hEireann.

Secondly, yes. The PIRA had working class support - but not a majority or even a large portion of it. Its biggest support was limited mainly to republican enclaves of Northern Ireland.



I have heard that IRA used to steal blasting caps and detonators from construction sites, does that mean that they had sympathizers amongst construction workers? True, the IRA did steal blasting caps from mining companies.

I once also heard that an IRA sympathizer living in USA who used to work in some sort of US defence company was caught smuggling proximity fuze technology into Ireland the guy had a Phd , now obviously my second question arises and that is, does IRA have support amongst students and University scholars?True, this did happen. The PIRA were known for their advanced technology and they even had their own engineering division. But to say that they had widespread support amongst university students is simply not true.


, after all they are quite ingenious guerrilla group ! I remember an American author in his book said “IRA has a lot of misguided Phd’s” , is that true that IRA has a lot of support from University geniuses ? Another important thing is that, can you give me a description of condition in rural areas of Ireland? Can you tell me some thing about peasant class there? Does IRA have their support?
They IRA traditionally drew its support from the people with rural backgrounds but this changed in the 1950's and since then it seems to draw most of its support from urban areas. There is no peasent class in Ireland. Ireland is a developed country.



I also would want to know how much change has come to today’s Ireland when you compare it with 70s and 80s? The western media claims that Ireland is in some kind of a tech boom and economic boom ( off course I don’t believe a word stupid western media says, I still think that Ireland is deprived and will continue to be until and unless the British influence and British occupation ends).Now after the economic meldown every where is there any chance that the IRA will make a comeback?
This is true. Ireland had an economic boom in the mid 1990's but its all collapsed. The working-class of Ireland did experience some economic gain but really it was the big industries and multinational companies that made the real profits from Ireland. Technology companies such as Dell, Microsoft, Google, Amazon, IBM, EMC, VM ware, Apple, Banta, Boston scientific, stryker, Jacobs, Jones Engineering, Novartis, Pfiser, Canon, Jensen, McAfee, Solarwinds etc etc are the mainstay of the Irish economy, if these companies packed up and left tomorrow we'd be in serious trouble -such is problem of economic imperialism on Ireland. I would argue that it is these companies that really control Ireland and not the British.


Any ways I personally have always admired and respected IRA for their bravery, tenacity and ingenuity , I like the fact that they have been fighting against the British Empire for such a long time and they still haven’t got defeated. I think that they are socialist ( at least some if not all) , do you people remember two IRA men who were caught in Latin America for helping Communist guerrillas there in building stuffs.No, the IRA are not and never have been socialist. They are simply concerned with driving out the British from Nothern Ireland. They are not concerned with the working class. The whole incident with colombia and FARC was that the IRA were assisting FARC with weapons technology, probably in exchange for money.