Northern Europe vs Southern Europe

[ComradeMan]

Okay,

Greece is bankrupt and Italy is corrupt and Spain is... well, just Spain along with Portugal... but FFS

Perhaps it's just a southern thing... but what is this sense that many of us south of the Alps have that we are just the poor cousins to be laughed at and stereotyped all the time?

You know, you can only put up with so many jokes about spaghetti and the mafia until it starts to piss you off...

Comments?

[Zukunftsmusik]

According to Max Weber you guys "south of the Alps" have Catholicism, and he thought Catholicism makes you lazy, while Lutheranism makes us northern guys hard working people. Don't know if this explains everything, i mean - laziness -> bankruptcy? but this was what first came into my head, seeing that you posted this in Religion.

[Queercommie Girl]

One of my best friends is Italian. He is from Sicily. He told me most Sicilians have a rather "lazy" lifestyle.

Not just Northern Europeans, but even Northern Italians have negative prejudices about Sicilian people...

[Manic Impressive]

It's not just Southern Europe Ireland get it just as bad if not worse. But every country in Europe has it's stereotypes and insults.

[ComradeMan]

According to Max Weber you guys "south of the Alps" have Catholicism, and he thought Catholicism makes you lazy, while Lutheranism makes us northern guys hard working people. Don't know if this explains everything, i mean - laziness -> bankruptcy? but this was what first came into my head, seeing that you posted this in Religion.

I didn't actually mean to post this in religion- server wipeout- it was meant for general OI!!!

But anyway, yeah, I've heard that whole Protestant work ethic thing before- but it seems to translate into "you work, we earn"... ;)

[Zukunftsmusik]

I didn't actually mean to post this in religion- server wipeout- it was meant for general OI!!!

Yeah, thought that was a bit strange place to start such a debate :P


But anyway, yeah, I've heard that whole Protestant work ethic thing before- but it seems to translate into "you work, we earn"... ;)

Explain?

Do you mean that Protestantism's work ethics gives the upper class a 'reason' to make people work for you? And at the same time it gives people a false reason to work, saying that you will be granted for your hard work in heaven? In that case - agreed.

[Bilan]

What comes to mind when you think of Australia?

[#FF0000]

What comes to mind when you think of Australia?

race riots and shrimp on barbies.

[Angry Young Man]

Barbecues, racism and murderous fauna

[ComradeMan]

One of my best friends is Italian. He is from Sicily. He told me most Sicilians have a rather "lazy" lifestyle.

Not just Northern Europeans, but even Northern Italians have negative prejudices about Sicilian people...

I find this somewhat irritating when in fact the worker base for much of Switzerland, Belgium, W.Germany and even Northern Italy was made up of southern Italian workers, along with Turkish "gastarbeiter". :cursing: That's not to mention the Greeks and Balkan peoples either...

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Okay,

Greece is bankrupt and Italy is corrupt and Spain is... well, just Spain along with Portugal... but FFS

Perhaps it's just a southern thing... but what is this sense that many of us south of the Alps have that we are just the poor cousins to be laughed at and stereotyped all the time?

You know, you can only put up with so many jokes about spaghetti and the mafia until it starts to piss you off...

Comments?

Surely Italians have stereotypes about northern Europeans? I'm curious.

[a rebel]

What are some eastern European stereotypes at that rate?

[Thirsty Crow]

What comes to mind when you think of Australia?
Every social and economic problem Australia faces is due to widespread laziness caused by Australians' favourite pastime: wrestling with crocodiles and boxing with kangaroos.
Basically, lazy Australians who like to fight animals.

On a more serious note, it's godawfully irritating to hear such simplistic, implicitly or explicitly chauvinist proclamations regarding laziness of certain peoples which causes economic trouble. But hell, what else to expect from capitalist apologia?

[Rooster]

Is this anything to do with Italy's lack of an empire during the period of capitalisation?

[Thirsty Crow]

What are some eastern European stereotypes at that rate?
Drunken Russians. Ukranian women are supposedly "easy" and tend to be employed in prostitution. (that's some of the shit which circulates here where I live).

Fucking rubbish.

[a rebel]

Drunken Russians. Ukranian women are supposedly "easy" and tend to be employed in prostitution. (that's some of the shit which circulates here where I live).

Fucking rubbish.

My Lithuanian friend calls all Russians lying cheats

[ComradeMan]

Surely Italians have stereotypes about northern Europeans? I'm curious.

The problem Italians have is with the stereotype(s) of themselves.

Stereotype 1= All glory to Italy and the descendents of Rome, ignorant barbarian savages northern europeans wouldn't know how to eat properly or wipe their own asses without us. Continued with Leonardo, Renaissance etc and later with football glory.:rolleyes:

Stereotype 2= Italia di merda! Shit corrupt country where it's who you know not what you know that counts and no one gives a fuck as long as they are okay themselves. :crying:

:(

But still, Northern Europeans (admittedly a generalistation) do seem to have a superiority complex towards southern Europeans in general.... despite southern Europe's contribution to European civilisation.
;)

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

What are some eastern European stereotypes at that rate?

My father grew up in the cold-war era and the only thing he has to say about it is that "The Russkies are sneaky and back-stabbing criminals". He seems to say that about everyone except Americans and the Polish on the other hand...

[Bilan]

race riots and shrimp on barbies.

Prawns.


Barbecues, racism and murderous fauna

Don't forget the beaches.

[Bilan]

Every social and economic problem Australia faces is due to widespread laziness caused by Australians' favourite pastime: wrestling with crocodiles and boxing with kangaroos.
Basically, lazy Australians who like to fight animals.

On a more serious note, it's godawfully irritating to hear such simplistic, implicitly or explicitly chauvinist proclamations regarding laziness of certain peoples which causes economic trouble. But hell, what else to expect from capitalist apologia?

I am insulted that you didn't even bother to mention our proud drinking habits.

http://blogs.abc.net.au/nt/images/2009/02/23/vb_2.jpg

We are noble people.

[Triple A]

I live in south europe and we have a lot of stereotypes against the northerns like:
Swedish people are hot.
Germans are cold and insensitive.
The english are always on time. We also call english beefs :)
...
We also have some for eastern europeans.





And I learnt in history classes that catolicism slowed us down because the inquisition saw knoweldge as sinfull and held back scientific progress.

[ComradeMan]

We also call english beefs :)

I thought that was French? :confused:

[Triple A]

I thought that was French? :confused:

We do too.
We have a nickname for french too.

[ComradeMan]

We do too.
We have a nickname for french too.

What?

[Os Cangaceiros]

What are some eastern European stereotypes at that rate?

surly turnip farmers, packs of wild dogs & petty crime. Ancient ethnic/national rivalries, Roma people and the Hostel films.


What comes to mind when you think of Australia?

surly surfers, roos, wombats and barbecues. A giant prison island that somehow became a country.

[Triple A]

What?

It's a strange name.
Well like the english like to call them frogs we had to have a name too.

[Omsk]

East Europe and Balkans stereotypes:
(ie how they are seen by the west countries.
1. Russians are always drunk,angry.
2. Women from Ukraine,Slovakia are cheap.
3. Belarus people are dumb.
4. Romanians don't have roads.
5. Greek people are lazy/dirty.
6. Yugoslav people are all poor/hardline communist/nazi/crazy/drunk.

Those are just some of the stereotypes,and all of them,are of course,untrue and show much about the people who made them up.

[Queercommie Girl]

A bit off-topic, but what kind of stereotypes do you think people (in the West) have about Chinese people?

[Manic Impressive]

A bit off-topic, but what kind of stereotypes do you think people (in the West) have about Chinese people?
I think there's a bit of a mystic perception about the Chinese sometimes. I think there's quite a lot of respect for Chinese culture as well. I can't think of another culture who's medicine and fashion has been taken up by the west not to mention the martial arts. When I was growing up everyone's hero was Bruce Lee, so much so that my primary school had to officially ban us doing "karate" in the playground. (yes I know karate is Japanese but that's what we called it :blushing:)

There also seems to be a trend to look to China for how to do things better. Have you heard of the "Tiger mother" parenting technique?

[Triple A]

A bit off-topic, but what kind of stereotypes do you think people (in the West) have about Chinese people?

They work like there is no tomorrow.
Smart.
Eat all kinds of animals.

[Manic Impressive]

East Europe and Balkans stereotypes:
(ie how they are seen by the west countries.
1. Russians are always drunk,angry.
2. Women from Ukraine,Slovakia are cheap.
3. Belarus people are dumb.
4. Romanians don't have roads.
5. Greek people are lazy/dirty.
6. Yugoslav people are all poor/hardline communist/nazi/crazy/drunk.

Those are just some of the stereotypes,and all of them,are of course,untrue and show much about the people who made them up.
Are you in the west? Or is this an Eastern European perception of how the west views the East? I'd say you're definitely wrong with the Greek perception and you give way to much credit to people about Belarus, most people wouldn't know where it is let alone anything about the people living there. Also Romanians are viewed as thieves but that view isn't just confined to western europe is it?
The thing is Western countries don't have strong entrenched perceptions of Eastern European countries because frankly people don't care. The reason that Western European countries have strong stereotypes is because the countries have been in direct competition for over a thousand years. From what I've seen Eastern Europeans have entrenched stereotypes about their neighbours. For instance a Hungarian friend of mine would slag off the Romanians and Bulgarians and got offended when I said Hungary was in Eastern Europe. A Czech friend who was explaining the break up of Czechoslovakia told me that Slovaks were stupid lazy farmers who were holding the Czech's back.

[Queercommie Girl]

They work like there is no tomorrow.


Well that stereotype is certainly false, since I'm really quite a lazy person.

[pastradamus]

Thread moved to OI.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

Swedish people are hot.

Great untruth if there ever was one. We're monstrous things.

[PhoenixAsh]

I think this is a subject which is too complex to deal with conclusively in one thread and certainly one post. It depends on many, many factors.

What you can see in the historical development of Europe is a tilt from SOuthern hegemony through large parts of history (Roman empire, Greek hegemony, Macedonian empire, Habsburg empire, Vatican religious dominance) toward northern economic and cultural hegemony during the last 500 years.

A process which was influenced by several factors...over stretching of empire, fragmentalisation, the fall of feudalism and the rise of commercialism and mercantilism and most definately by the rise of protestantism and the numerous very expensive wars that were waged to maintain empire and religious dominance which were subsequently lost.

If we focus on the religous part of it then catolicism vs protestantism is favoring heavilly in the economic power of the last one. Protestantism makes it the religious and social duty of its subjects to acquire commercial wealth whilst catholicism emphasizes a more sober life style and makes sloth, greed and avarice a sin. Where catholicism is the religion of feudal powers; protestantism is the religion of capitalism (I realise that this is a huge, huge generalisation).

Another reason for the decline is the fragmentarisation of the Habsburg empire and its inability to maintain its huge and vast holdings. The H.E. was faced by several disconcenting states...the Dutch, the English, the German states, the north Africans, The Ottomans/Middle East, Eastern Europe and the conquest of the "New World" and needed to field huge and very, very expensive armies to miantain or try to maintain its power inside those regions which were often far, far away and thereby overstretched and made vulnerable the supply lines and the direct communication between vassal and emperor.

The definate declaine came at a moment in which we also see an economic and material shift from a feudalist means of production towards a more modern form...early capitalism/mercantilism which accompanied the huge rift in christian religion.

THis is by no means meant as a deifnitife answer. Its merely some thoughts on the subject and I would have to do some more research (for which I have no time) to find more and more elaborate reasons. These are meant as some general thoughts and points of interest I think played a key role.

[PhoenixAsh]

A bit off-topic, but what kind of stereotypes do you think people (in the West) have about Chinese people?

Some people say they are:

Very traditional, work very hard for their family and are very family oriented and like to isolate within their own communities. They tend to look down upon westerners as unfocussed and a bit "barbarian"....they are also perceived as loud and ruse since they chose to only speak Chinese often very loudly in mixed company....it always seems they are arguing.

:)

[CommieTroll]

I live in south europe and we have a lot of stereotypes against the northerns like:
Swedish people are hot.
Germans are cold and insensitive.
The english are always on time. We also call english beefs :)
...
We also have some for eastern europeans.





And I learnt in history classes that catolicism slowed us down because the inquisition saw knoweldge as sinfull and held back scientific progress.

In Ireland we call the English scum :laugh:

[#FF0000]

Prawns.

Of course. Five times the size of British prawns

[Transcendence]

It's idiotic to suggest there's any cultural north/south divide that brought on the 'economic crash'. It's a simply the fact that Greece, Spain and Portugal are rather sparsely populated countries burdened with debts far beyond their population's ability to repay. It's population size and economic structure, nothing to do with "cultural differences"

[ComradeMan]

It's idiotic to suggest there's any cultural north/south divide that brought on the 'economic crash'. It's a simply the fact that Greece, Spain and Portugal are rather sparsely populated countries burdened with debts far beyond their population's ability to repay. It's population size and economic structure, nothing to do with "cultural differences"

And yet the grumbles of being lazy, corrupt and irresponsible have come from some sections in Northern Europe in a sort of macrocosmic way that they often come from Northern Italy against Southern Italy.

[RGacky3]

I don't know about Italians, but eastern europeans, Africans, arabs, roma and east indians have it way worse than Italians will ever have it when it comes to Racism in Europe.

[Havet]

Okay,

Greece is bankrupt and Italy is corrupt and Spain is... well, just Spain along with Portugal... but FFS

Perhaps it's just a southern thing... but what is this sense that many of us south of the Alps have that we are just the poor cousins to be laughed at and stereotyped all the time?

You know, you can only put up with so many jokes about spaghetti and the mafia until it starts to piss you off...

Comments?

Its not a southern thing, its a peripheral thing!

Not to get all nationalist or anything, but the truth is while peripheral countries where increasing worker rights, central countries like germany were cutting them off to become more 'competitive', which is why now germany has a great production capacity

[RGacky3]

Not to get all nationalist or anything, but the truth is while peripheral countries where increasing worker rights, central countries like germany were cutting them off to become more 'competitive', which is why now germany has a great production capacity

Thats bullshit, Germany has some of the strongest workers rights in europe, strongest unions, and co-determination laws.

[Angry Young Man]

Don't forget the beaches.

Beaches full of murderous fauna?

I know they say something like you're more likely to be killed by a toaster than a shark, but that's because the poor bastards don't get a look-in with all the serpents, spiders and jellyfish vying for human flesh.

[Angry Young Man]

surly turnip farmers, packs of wild dogs & petty crime. Ancient ethnic/national rivalries, Roma people and the Hostel films.

Sounds like East Anglia

[Havet]

Thats bullshit, Germany has some of the strongest workers rights in europe, strongest unions, and co-determination laws.

According to the independent movie 'Debtocracy', and a german wage analyst that talks there, german works have had a nominal increase in their salary of only 7% in recent years, whereas the rest of the euro zone had an increase of around 27%. Obviously this made the german economy more competitive for investment

[RGacky3]

According to the independent movie 'Debtocracy', and a german wage analyst that talks there, german works have had a nominal increase in their salary of only 7% in recent years, whereas the rest of the euro zone had an increase of around 27%. Obviously this made the german economy more competitive for investment

I'll show you different graphs (http://www.eurofound.europa.eu/eiro/studies/tn0804019s/tn0804019s.htm), but if you look at those graphs, what germany is competing with is a bunch of Eastern European countries who are still tailing and still adjutsing to Capitalism, the Top increases and the most drastic were those countries, countries who in the 1990s (and many still) were run by Mafia bosses an who were essencially 3rd world countries.

But still compare those countries here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_in_Europe_by_net_average_ wage), and you'll see definately that German Workers are paid very very well.

Your argument is like comparing a 13 year old with a 25 year old, and saying that the 13 year old grew by way more than the 25 year old, so obviously he's gonna be taller.

Germany is the ONLY country with a Co-determination law, it has about 42% of its workers unionized and has a relatively high minimum wage.

You don't know what your talking about, also slower wage increases DOES NOT MEAN less workers rights, Germany was competative BECAUSE of social-democracy.