Moving to the Netherlands.

[Impulse97]

Been thinking about doing this, but it seems like it would be quite expensive to do so. Just got a few questions.

Is it expensive to do so from the states?

What are the average prices for various goods and services?

Rent?

Do the social services make up for the higher taxes and prices?

Is Dutch hard to learn? Obviously, this is directed to someone who has had to learn it as a second language.

How's the job market?

Thanks.

[Q]

Been thinking about doing this, but it seems like it would be quite expensive to do so. Just got a few questions.

Is it expensive to do so from the states?

What are the average prices for various goods and services?

Rent?
I've never been to the states, but my impression is that the average living standard in the US is much more expensive than here in the Netherlands. Then again, the average wage here is also lower, so I guess it evens out somewhat. Rents are much, much lower though (taking NYC as a comparison).


Do the social services make up for the higher taxes and prices?
I think this is based on a neoliberal myth. In fact the opposite is the case. In the last thirty or so years the social security has been demolished and life has become much more expensive as a result of this. That is, for the majority of the workers. An obvious case is healthcare: 20 years ago it was nearly free, today we pay €1200 a year (and that's only for very basic stuff) for a mandatory insurance. Ironically this has only compounded problems in the healthcare sector as hospitals now have to compete with eachother and waiting lists for treatments have risen or at best stabilised, waiting three months for a preliminary cancer research is "normal". By comparison, healthcare in Belgium is still nearly free and many Dutch people go to Belgium because they don't have to wait for a treatment.


Is Dutch hard to learn? Obviously, this is directed to someone who has had to learn it as a second language.
I don't believe it is, for an English speaker.


How's the job market?
It depends on how good your papers are. Overall highly educated people are in high demand.


Thanks.
No problem.

[Manic Impressive]

Is Dutch hard to learn? Obviously, this is directed to someone who has had to learn it as a second language.

Dutch is a really difficult language to learn if you're not good at hocking up phlegm and for some reason when my friends try to teach me Dutch they tease me about not being able to say "ou". But it's cool almost everyone in Holland speaks excellent English with exshtremely shexshy accents.:D

[Comrade Gwydion]

It depends on how good your papers are. Overall highly educated people are in high demand.


You're serious? Most recently graduated university students I know have serious problems getting a job. And I'm not talking about your average 'links tuig' filosophy student either: highly ambitious Law-school graduates just as much.

[Forward Union]

Right, let me give you some factual advice, as I have both lived abroad in Sweden, and failed at living abroad in Germany.

If you can't learn Dutch there really is no work, even manual jobs, cleaning etc, because the companies operate internally in the native language, so if anyone else applies for the slot, and they can speak Dutch, you automatically go to the back of the line. Being able to speak English isn't really an advantage there because everyone can speak it, you just can't speak Dutch. Now, Dutch isn't too hard, a year or two of study and you should get an intermediate certification. This will be absolutely essential to finding work in the Netherlands.

Now here's where it gets tricky, and you might want to take note of this;

Even within the EU, if you can't find income within 90 days of moving, you will be subject to deportation. Which you will be made to pay for. If you go to another EU country on a tourist visa, then get a train to the Netherlands, they won't know how long you've been there, and you won't be breaking any laws, but you will need to get a work visa to get a job there. EU citizens are entitled to their nations unemployment/job seekers allowance while living abroad. But this requires registering with the local authorities on arrival, meaning you become subject to deportation if things don't work out.You can register as a Student, for anything, even a Dutch language course in the Netherlands, but need to prove you have enough savings/loan etc to maintain yourself while abroad.

[Sasha]

most has already been said but here is my take:


Been thinking about doing this, but it seems like it would be quite expensive to do so. Just got a few questions.

Is it expensive to do so from the states?

What are the average prices for various goods and services?

Rent?

Do the social services make up for the higher taxes and prices?

this is all really dependent on what you bring, are you an experienced or highly educated IT-monkey? you have a good chance of landing an excelent paying job which makes that you can afford free-sector housing which makes you can live in the middle of the city, gives you entitlement to an legal residence status etc etc
but if you are planning to work as an dishwasher or coffeeshop employee? get in the back of an very long cue, you wont be legal, which makes you have no right to social housing and you cant afford anything in the free-sector etc etc
and if you want to work as an manual laborer, in construction or on the farms etc etc there is no way you can compete with the polish contract workers.



Is Dutch hard to learn? Obviously, this is directed to someone who has had to learn it as a second language.

the biggest problem is that almost everybody speaks excellent english, as soon as they detect the smallest accent they will naturally switch to english so there is for english speaking expats no incentive at all to learn dutch.


How's the job market?

its a crisis, what do you think?
admittedly it didnt hit as hard as in southern europe and especially the IT sector and bio-chemistry and such there is still high demand but yeah, you really has to have something to offer.

this is all ignoring the possibility to come here on a tourist visa and drop out, live illegal, find an squat (still possible although a lot more work nowadays) and to try to land an illegal job or dumpsterdive.
but i wouldnt really picture you as the lifestylist type.

[tracher999]

iff you lucking fore a good job in the netherlands there are many cofeechops
my dreamjob:D but i live in belgium fuck:D

[Impulse97]

this is all really dependent on what you bring, are you an experienced or highly educated IT-monkey? you have a good chance of landing an excelent paying job which makes that you can afford free-sector housing which makes you can live in the middle of the city, gives you entitlement to an legal residence status etc etc
but if you are planning to work as an dishwasher or coffeeshop employee? get in the back of an very long cue, you wont be legal, which makes you have no right to social housing and you cant afford anything in the free-sector etc etc
and if you want to work as an manual laborer, in construction or on the farms etc etc there is no way you can compete with the polish contract workers.

Well that's good to know... I'm a recent HS grad and would have to take an entry level job. Had wanted to go to school in Amsterdam, but it's getting to sound out of my price range.




the biggest problem is that almost everybody speaks excellent english, as soon as they detect the smallest accent they will naturally switch to english so there is for english speaking expats no incentive at all to learn dutch.

I love new languages so I plan on learning it anyway.



this is all ignoring the possibility to come here on a tourist visa and drop out, live illegal, find an squat (still possible although a lot more work nowadays) and to try to land an illegal job or dumpsterdive. but i wouldnt really picture you as the lifestylist type.

No not really lol :lol:



Now here's where it gets tricky, and you might want to take note of this;

Even within the EU, if you can't find income within 90 days of moving, you will be subject to deportation. Which you will be made to pay for. If you go to another EU country on a tourist visa, then get a train to the Netherlands, they won't know how long you've been there, and you won't be breaking any laws, but you will need to get a work visa to get a job there. EU citizens are entitled to their nations unemployment/job seekers allowance while living abroad. But this requires registering with the local authorities on arrival, meaning you become subject to deportation if things don't work out.You can register as a Student, for anything, even a Dutch language course in the Netherlands, but need to prove you have enough savings/loan etc to maintain yourself while abroad.

So far it seems to be a job that's the biggest road block. Been looking online and found a nice apartment for 1k euros a month, but without citizenship could I even rent it?

Perhaps, I could apply for Dutch citizenship before I left. I do believe we have a Dutch consulate near us. That would seem to fix a few of the problems list by you and Q.


I think this is based on a neoliberal myth. In fact the opposite is the case. In the last thirty or so years the social security has been demolished and life has become much more expensive as a result of this. That is, for the majority of the workers. An obvious case is healthcare: 20 years ago it was nearly free, today we pay €1200 a year (and that's only for very basic stuff) for a mandatory insurance. Ironically this has only compounded problems in the healthcare sector as hospitals now have to compete with eachother and waiting lists for treatments have risen or at best stabilised, waiting three months for a preliminary cancer research is "normal". By comparison, healthcare in Belgium is still nearly free and many Dutch people go to Belgium because they don't have to wait for a treatment.

I'm begining to see an unfortunate ammount of dollar signs attached with this idea... It's definatly gonna take more than a few months to save up for this. The plane ticket alone is $1,200. Plus, 3,000 Euro's for three months rent. Another 2,000 E for utilitites for three months. 4,500 E for 3 months food. Not to mention furnishing the apartment... And job prospects for entry level stuff isn't great.

I think I'm gonna have to do some more digging.

Thanks guys, any more info would be appreciated.

[Total]

iff you lucking fore a good job in the netherlands there are many cofeechops
my dreamjob:D but i live in belgium fuck:D

Most of the time the jobs in coffeeshops aren't as nice as one would immagine..

[Impulse97]

Most of the time the jobs in coffeeshops aren't as nice as one would immagine..

Stop tarnishing my dreams! Next your going to say that aren't cute girls everywhere :tt1: and that weed isn't free. I refuse to believe your falsehoods!

:lol::lol::lol:

[Comrade J]

Just out of curiousity Impulse, why the Netherlands? I would imagine it would be quite hard to emigrate there for a non-EU citizen, and you might have more luck going to an English-speaking country; the UK, Australia etc. I think Australia and New Zealand have pretty good work visas for young people, perhaps consider something like that?

I'm currently contemplating moving to France myself, or maybe Canada.

[Sasha]

Well that's good to know... I'm a recent HS grad and would have to take an entry level job. Had wanted to go to school in Amsterdam, but it's getting to sound out of my price range.

that actually changes a lot, on a student visa you can stay legally here which can make for better paying jobs...
you wont be legible for student financing or housing but it will be easier to find an room.



I'm begining to see an unfortunate ammount of dollar signs attached with this idea... It's definatly gonna take more than a few months to save up for this. The plane ticket alone is $1,200. Plus, 3,000 Euro's for three months rent. Another 2,000 E for utilitites for three months. 4,500 E for 3 months food. Not to mention furnishing the apartment... And job prospects for entry level stuff isn't great.


if your willing to go for an room/shared appartment it will be less, i would say in amsterdam or utrecht you should think about 600 euro's including utilities a month, in other citys less.
i'm not going to argue for anti-squat as that will be against your (and mine) politics but temporary rent will be even lower.
furnishing your room can be extremely cheap if you dont mind second hand stuff.
food should be lower too, i don't eat an student menu by far and i spend way less then you just estimated
also the flight, if booked enough in advance should be cheaper than that. i had return tickets to SF for less than the price you gave.

[Dr Mindbender]

Coming to the UK or Ireland instead would remove the issue of the language barrier. Plus if you can get a more permanent settlement visa it will be much easier to travel and work within the rest of Europe.

[Impulse97]

Coming to the UK or Ireland instead would remove the issue of the language barrier. Plus if you can get a more permanent settlement visa it will be much easier to travel and work within the rest of Europe.


Bah, that'd be the easy way out. :D It'd be much, much more fun to learn Dutch and get lost in the culture shock. Plus, as a side motive I wanna find the elusive blue tulip and bring it back to the US for my dad.

[danyboy27]

Bah, that'd be the easy way out. :D It'd be much, much more fun to learn Dutch and get lost in the culture shock. Plus, as a side motive I wanna find the elusive blue tulip and bring it back to the US for my dad.

well you could also come to my province, you will definitively have a culture shock, sortof..

we got a shitload of social services and programs, our healthcare system kinda suck beccause of several budget cut but it still tax funded healthcare, beat the U.S for that.

we are the only french region in north america, think about it!

[black magick hustla]

moving to the EU is fucking hard don't even try.

this comes from someone who has a lot of experience with visas and emmigration. As the poster said above, I heard New Zealand and Australia are not that hard. Canada is the easiest, I think.

[PhoenixAsh]

IF you move to a university city there will even be some jobs available for foreign exchange students. But they are not really plentiful....and they are not all that well payed.

Working in a coffeeshop is...well...probably an option. If you have the contacts and if you are "lucky". The pay is shitty though...probably minimum wage.

Which is not that much...but its enough to make a modest living.


IF you want to stay longer than three months and work you need a certificate of preliminary stay. To do this you need to show you can:
1) provide for yourself...which basically means you either have the cash...or you already applied and were hired for a job.
2) be in the posession of a valid passport or ID card
3) show you do not have a criminal record

This costs € 433

Normally you won't need this from the US...but seeing as you want to stay...you do.

When you get here...you need to apply for a residence permit.

Which costs € 188

This sounds pretty easy...but you need to have a job, cash, or be the major stockholder of a company. And the IND are usually real assholes...the more money you have...the less of a problem it will be.

Once in Holland and with a job...you will pick up the language pretty quickly. Everybody (well...almost) speaks English or understands it and usually we try to make an effort.


Somethings are better than in the US. Somethings definately aren't.

Prices are higher. Taxes are higher. And everything is smaller...but in return you get fuck all nothing. So its a fair trade I guess.

But seriously...if you get yor residence permit...you are entitled to certain benefits from the government. We won't let you starve....much. And you always have a right to medical attention....though you may need to pay for some of it.

With a permit you have the right to access welfare, study benefits, rent subsidies, unemployment benefits, pension, etc.

[Impulse97]

IF you move to a university city there will even be some jobs available for foreign exchange students. But they are not really plentiful....and they are not all that well payed.

Working in a coffeeshop is...well...probably an option. If you have the contacts and if you are "lucky". The pay is shitty though...probably minimum wage.

Which is not that much...but its enough to make a modest living.


IF you want to stay longer than three months and work you need a certificate of preliminary stay. To do this you need to show you can:
1) provide for yourself...which basically means you either have the cash...or you already applied and were hired for a job.
2) be in the posession of a valid passport or ID card
3) show you do not have a criminal record

This costs € 433

Normally you won't need this from the US...but seeing as you want to stay...you do.

When you get here...you need to apply for a residence permit.

Which costs € 188

This sounds pretty easy...but you need to have a job, cash, or be the major stockholder of a company. And the IND are usually real assholes...the more money you have...the less of a problem it will be.

Once in Holland and with a job...you will pick up the language pretty quickly. Everybody (well...almost) speaks English or understands it and usually we try to make an effort.


Somethings are better than in the US. Somethings definately aren't.

Prices are higher. Taxes are higher. And everything is smaller...but in return you get fuck all nothing. So its a fair trade I guess.

But seriously...if you get yor residence permit...you are entitled to certain benefits from the government. We won't let you starve....much. And you always have a right to medical attention....though you may need to pay for some of it.

With a permit you have the right to access welfare, study benefits, rent subsidies, unemployment benefits, pension, etc.


Yea I looked up the permit on the IND website. Doesn't seem to hard to get.

More and more its seeming that once I can get a job all the other dominoes will start falling into place.

What is the minimum wage there?

[Thirsty Crow]

Been looking online and found a nice apartment for 1k euros a month, but without citizenship could I even rent it?

Just to bump into the debate, but holy fuck, 1000 euro rent?? I don't think I'll be ever making that kind of a wage in my life.
On the same topic, can some Dutch comrade, or anyone experienced in the state of affairs in the Netherlands, describe how does the social housing system work.
I'm asking out of curiosity, mainly.

[Sasha]

If you make below an certain amount you can aply for social housing, these are mostly apartment previously owned by the government or cooperatives but now privatised into corperations. The rent will be max 600 something a month. The waiting lists in the big city is really long though. I had to wait 8.5 years and was really lucky to land something in my neighbourhood, normally the waitinglists for the pre-war houses are 10 years for the old working-class areas and 15 to 20 for the city center.
Overlapping with the social housing system is the social rent system. If you make bellow an even lower threshold the state will subsidise up to half of your rent, this can be both for corporation houses as privately owned ones providing it us less than that 600 something euros.
Next to this there is an seppereate student housing system but again it has very long waiting lists and as soon as you leave uni you will be kicked out.

[PhoenixAsh]

There are two housing markets. The social housing market and the private one.

The social market means you have to have a residence permit. You get put on a list and every week or so you can reply to available houses...as time progresses you move up the list. This is not a fast progress.

BUT there is a way to get a preference indicator which is a lot, lot quicker. If you have an unacceptable living/work situation you might get one seeing the US is rather far to commute.

The appartments and houses are not that expensive. They are not really that small either. An they are rent controlled. So you pay anywhere from $350 to 1300 with the higher price range reserved for complete houses. But you often are allegable for subsidies depending on your income. ...so use that system if you can.


The private sector is way more expensive and way quicker. Basically prices start at the $ 650 range for very small appartments depending on where you may live...and go up from there. MOST private houses are outside the range for rent subsidies....and most of them are smaller than social housing system.


If you manage to find a house of 1k....you better not make minimum wage.


Minimum wage is 1442 gross a month for ages 23 and up....means you probably have somewhere about 1100 left after taxes....an you need somewhere around 200 to live minimum a month. I can't do it cheaper...though it is possible but 200 is hard enough as it is.


So the social housing system is your absolute best bet if you land a minium wage job.

[Sasha]

lots of these houses are being sold or their rent jacked up beyond the protected threshold which makes they can ask 1200 + for an 40 something square meter apartment.

[PhoenixAsh]

I had to move very quickly two years back. Basically I has 6 hours to find a place to live. So I went to Direct Living (Direct wonen)....that will cost an arm and a leg. You have to pay one month finding fee, one month security and one month in advance.

My apartment is 800 including gas water and light and its probably 40 sqm. Right on the edge of the city center. Last year I lost my job. So now I have benefits...I can barely manage and the social housing network won't give me a prefered status. So the waiting period here is about 4 years.

Since I don't have an income and no more savings....I can't pay for private cheaper alternatives....which are very, very rare. Even with the same oranisation because they require me to do the whole upfront payment again including the finding fee. F*** simply said I needed to pay them again...no payment...no house.

The system sucks. The only alternative is either find a job or go back to my parents....or find a girlfriend with a house who is willing to take me in.

[praxis1966]

Not that I'm seriously considering it at the moment, but I've toyed off and on with the idea of emigrating from the US for years so I'm kind of intrigued by this discussion. Just a couple of things I'd like clarified to satiate my own curiosity.


Minimum wage is 1442 gross a month for ages 23 and up....means you probably have somewhere about 1100 left after taxes....an you need somewhere around 200 to live minimum a month. I can't do it cheaper...though it is possible but 200 is hard enough as it is.

Are we talking euros or dollars here? I ask because if you're stating things in euros and assuming a 40 hour work week, we're talking about ≈12.90 USD/hour. That's nearly twice the US federal minimum wage (7.25 USD/hour), and ≈30% higher than the city of San Francisco (9.92 USD/hour) which has one of the highest minimum wages in the country.


The only alternative is either find a job or go back to my parents....or find a girlfriend with a house who is willing to take me in.

I can't decide which is more difficult. To me, finding a job quickly in this economy is just as difficult as finding a girlfriend if you don't have a job.;) Never mind for a moment that I'd probably sooner pitch myself off the Golden Gate Bridge before I moved back in with either one of my parents.

[PhoenixAsh]

Are we talking euros or dollars here? I ask because if you're stating things in euros and assuming a 40 hour work week, we're talking about ≈12.90 USD/hour. That's nearly twice the US federal minimum wage (7.25 USD/hour), and ≈30% higher than the city of San Francisco (9.92 USD/hour) which has one of the highest minimum wages in the country.

Yes...its in Euro's and based on 1 fte...so basically 40 hours a week. (my keyboard is fucking up and I can't seem to get the euro sign) But its before tax. So that you have to keep in mind. Some of it you can get back at the end of the fiscal year, though.

You also need to keep in mind that food and clothes are a bit more expensive here. Some people, apparantly (I just heard this yesterday from one of my sporting instructors), save up a whole year to go to the US....and do their shopping there and still be out cheaper. Which I find curious. O...and the portions in restaurants are smaller :)

And you are required to buy insurance...medical and other ones....which is about 150 all included (dentists and stuff)...but you can get it somewhat cheaper if you are willing to do the research.


I can't decide which is more difficult. To me, finding a job quickly in this economy is just as difficult as finding a girlfriend if you don't have a job.;) Never mind for a moment that I'd probably sooner pitch myself off the Golden Gate Bridge before I moved back in with either one of my parents.Haha...yes I completely understand and relate to this :lol:

Though...I have to add...some Dutch women, most notably the slightly older ones (30+) and those with higher education, do not mind so much the employment status and some even think it has benefits to have a boyfriend/husband who does the homework so they can have a carreer. Dutch women are in my experience slightly more emancipated in that sense....so if you are not unwilling to get over the male gender ego thingy...well...you can always go for that. I don't mind...though I rather contribute equally.

But that is just from personal experience.

[praxis1966]

You also need to keep in mind that food and clothes are a bit more expensive here. Some people, apparantly (I just heard this yesterday from one of my sporting instructors), save up a whole year to go to the US....and do their shopping there and still be out cheaper. Which I find curious. O...and the portions in restaurants are smaller :)

Well, I have my doubts as to how much more expensive the cost of living is in Amsterdam compared to the San Francisco Bay Area... You can correct me if I'm wrong, but the average cost of a family home with a garden in Amsterdam is roughly 715,000 USD (500,000 EU) from what I've been able to figure out on the net. Compare that to slightly over 800,000 USD in San Francisco proper. Also, those figures I gave you about our minimum wages were pre-tax as well, but I have a feeling your tax rate is higher than ours is, so that's something to consider as well. On the whole you're right, though, the US is cheaper. It's just that certain cities (one of which I live in) are pretty comparable.


Though...I have to add...some Dutch women, most notably the slightly older ones (30+) and those with higher education, do not mind so much the employment status and some even think it has benefits to have a boyfriend/husband who does the homework so they can have a carreer. Dutch women are in my experience slightly more emancipated in that sense....so if you are not unwilling to get over the male gender ego thingy...well...you can always go for that. I don't mind...though I rather contribute equally.

But that is just from personal experience.

Pssst... I'll tell you a secret. This is my living situation already. My girlfriend has a master's degree and works a decently paid professional job. Mind you, she's a social worker so we're definitely still working class, but we do OK. That, and I'm unemployed (although not by choice) and I do the lion's share of cleaning and cooking. I don't consider the situation a reflection on my manhood at all, even though society does. But yeah, it almost never works that way here in the States.

We're emancipated as shit, B.:lol:

Alright, sorry for derailing the thread... As you were.

[Comrade J]

Not that I'm seriously considering it at the moment, but I've toyed off and on with the idea of emigrating from the US for years so I'm kind of intrigued by this discussion.

Do iiiiiiiit! It's such a privilege to be able to move abroad and live in a foreign culture, you should seize any chance you get to move abroad. Maybe your girlfriend could get a social worker job somewhere else, maybe Australia, they're always looking for workers in the care and health sector.

[Impulse97]

Though...I have to add...some Dutch women, most notably the slightly older ones (30+) and those with higher education, do not mind so much the employment status and some even think it has benefits to have a boyfriend/husband who does the homework so they can have a carreer. Dutch women are in my experience slightly more emancipated in that sense....so if you are not unwilling to get over the male gender ego thingy...well...you can always go for that. I don't mind...though I rather contribute equally.

But that is just from personal experience.How are the women in the Netherlands? I've heard some varied things.

Do people literally fly across the Atlantic just to shop?

Found a cheaper apartment for 700 a month. It's still gonna be a squeeze each month though. Insurance sounds cheap though so that's good at least.


Edit: Been looking at apartments in Rotterdam and found a few for 550 a month Excluding Gas, Water, Heat.

[PhoenixAsh]

How are the women in the Netherlands? I've heard some varied things.

I don't know what you have heard. But I guess they are like people :lol::p.

No seriously, well...I can't really answer that question. Mostly the Dutch are a bit sober and depending on where you are...direct. If you are going to live in the "Randstad" which is basically most of South-Holland, The South of North-Holland and large parts of Utrecht then you can expect people to be direct like a watered down New-York mentality, I guess, but slightly more friendly. And generally speaking women are a lot more outspoken and emancipated than in many other places in the world. But that is a huge generalisation.



Do people literally fly across the Atlantic just to shop?


Some do...crazy.




Found a cheaper apartment for 700 a month. It's still gonna be a squeeze each month though. Insurance sounds cheap though so that's good at least.


Edit: Been looking at apartments in Rotterdam and found a few for 550 a month Excluding Gas, Water, Heat.

As a rule of thumb...the larger the city the cheaper the appartments. Rotterdam, The Hague (Den Haag), Amsterdam, Utrecht have cheaper and more available housing...except when you want to live in the city center. In which case you pay a hefty sum of cash. Outside the Randstad (where you don't want to live unless you have kids) things are a lot cheaper.

I would try to look for an appartment of < 620 to be able to get housing subsidies. 550 is a good price. Especially if you can get the subsidies in which case depending on your wage you can pay as low as 350 a month.

[Wanted Man]

As a rule of thumb...the larger the city the cheaper the appartments. Rotterdam, The Hague (Den Haag), Amsterdam, Utrecht have cheaper and more available housing...except when you want to live in the city center. In which case you pay a hefty sum of cash. Outside the Randstad (where you don't want to live unless you have kids) things are a lot cheaper.

Radiant story, bro.

[PhoenixAsh]

Radiant story, bro.


well...tell me what there is to do outside the Randstad...excepyt for brommers kieken.

[Wanted Man]

johGVVswM4A

What else could you possibly need?

[PhoenixAsh]

ok...fair enough..I concede the point :lol: