Iron Front USA: Democracy! Socialism! Anti-facism!

[The Teacher]

What do my fellow Americans think about the idea of organizing a broad collation of social democrats, anti-facists, anti-capitalists, etc under the three-arrow symbol of the old German Iron Front that opposed the Nazis?

The symbol has the advantage of being fairly unknown to the mainstream public but recognizable by people of certain tendencies.

Also the three arrows give us room to play around with different slogans.

Liberty! Equality! Solidarity!

(My favorite)
Vote! Strike! Riot!

The point of all this would be to utilize the political, economic, and physical might of the working class to boost the profile of leftist politics in the USA. The point would be to deliver definable, short term results for working families. We have seen how a relatively small group of dedicated protesters can shift the agenda of the major political parties. By supporting far left political parties, we syphon off votes from the Democrats. By running openly leftist canidates in Democratic primaries we force them to recognize our agenda.

Sticking with the theme of threes, I thought our demands could be

1. Living Wage
2. Reform the Justice System
3. Tax the Rich

[Ballyfornia]

I thought that sign was originally anti-socialist?

[Terminator X]

This sounds exactly like the DSA's approach.

[Red Commissar]

I thought that sign was originally anti-socialist?

It wasn't so much anti-Socialist as it was anti-"Communist" in the revolutionary Marxist sense. The original designation of the "Iron Front" was as so:

http://www.fes.de/archiv/adsd_neu/inhalt/downloads/img/weimar/plakat/ka003265.jpg

Translating into "Against Papen" (Representing the old, conservative elements), "Against Hitler" (Representing the fascists), and "Against Thälmann" (Representing the Moscow-aligned Communists).

As for the OP's suggestion, I'm not really sure if its effects, particularly in regards to running in Democratic Primaries. There is certainly some disillusionment among the "progressives" that support the Democrats but you'll need a lot more than that to get them over in our ring. There are already other groups affiliated to the Democratic Political Machine that want to scare people into maintaining support for the Dems and Obama to avoid the surge fo the Republicans.

[Tommy4ever]

The Iron Front: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Front

An SPD led coalition with bourgeios forces that opposed the Nazis and the KPD equally.


Beyond the historical implications of the symbol it does look a teensy bit fascisty IMO. Might be wrong though, does look reasonably striking.

Your strategy, meanwhile, is one shared by a few groups in America. Hasn't worked so far.

[Tim Finnegan]

http://www.fes.de/archiv/adsd_neu/inhalt/downloads/img/weimar/plakat/ka003265.jpg
The fact that Thälmann gets the biggest lettering pretty much shows how messed up their priorities were, huh? :bored:

[28350]

color me trolled

[RED DAVE]

It seems to me that the Iron Front was the Social Democrat's version of the Popular Front and the theory of social fascism.

Why would anyone want to get involve in that kind of configuration, which would inevitably involve liberals, membes of the Democratic Party, etc.?

And just think of the fallout from even a name like "Iron Front."

RED DAVE

[The Teacher]

This all crossed my mind as I was thinking about the collapse of the left in American politics. The DSA isn't even functioning anymore.

[Salyut]

"Iron Front" sounds pretty fascist bro.

Just saying.

[The Teacher]

"Iron Front" sounds pretty fascist bro.

Just saying.

Would fluffy bunny front be less threatening?

[Zeus the Moose]

In terms of symbols, the Three Arrows is used by a few different groups already, from anti-fascist groups to the (currently defunct) Young People's Socialist League to a general election poster from the SP-USA:


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/DeusExSylvanus/VoteSocialistPoster.png

It's definitely a riff on the SPD's election poster. I really like it because I'm a history nerd :)

As for the idea of an "Iron Front" itself, the idea of a sort of anti-fascist united front is certainly a good one. However, the specifics are where it get very hairy.

[Tablo]

We don't need an Iron Front, we already have ARA and other anti-fascist groups.

[The Teacher]

I know lots of ARA people and their scope is also much narrower than what I'm proposing.

[Terminator X]

I know lots of ARA people and their scope is also much narrower than what I'm proposing.

Well.....what are you proposing? :confused:

[The Teacher]

Participation in mainstream politics for one. By refusing to run in elections we are needlesly taking a tool out of our toolbox. The ballot is equal in power to labor actions and direct confrontation.

[Kamos]

Participation in mainstream politics for one. By refusing to run in elections we are needlesly taking a tool out of our toolbox. The ballot is equal in power to labor actions and direct confrontation.

House of lies. How can the ballot be equal in power to going on strike and organising the revolution? The capitalists control the voting however they want. Even if they were to be completely honest about tallying the votes, though, and a communist party were to win, the other parties would block everything they wanted to do. Nope, reformism is not the answer. "Participation in mainstream politics" should be done outside of the parliament (read: agitation).

For a teacher, you still have plenty to learn.

[The Teacher]

House of lies. How can the ballot be equal in power to going on strike and organising the revolution? The capitalists control the voting however they want. Even if they were to be completely honest about tallying the votes, though, and a communist party were to win, the other parties would block everything they wanted to do. Nope, reformism is not the answer. "Participation in mainstream politics" should be done outside of the parliament (read: agitation).

The USA did not used to have a social safety net, child labor laws, a minimum wage, or civil rights laws. Those things didn't happen because the establishment wanted them to. They happened because people used all of the tools at their disposal. BTW, who said I want the communists to win?

For a teacher, you still have plenty to learn.

So, I disagree with you on a matter of opinion so you are automatically right and I am ill informed?:confused:

[Kamos]

So, I disagree with you on a matter of opinion so you are automatically right and I am ill informed?:confused:

Avoiding my point. Besides, whether reformism helps or not is hardly a matter of opinion, it's an established fact that it doesn't help and every revolutionary knows this.

[The Teacher]

An established fact? Child labor laws don't help? Civil rights laws don't help? You seem to have a hard time with the difference between fact an opinion.

[The Teacher]

Politics and elections are tools. Why refuse to use a tool if it can help get you what you want? Why exclude a valid option? If you think that minimum wage laws do not help real families then you have a strange idea about what it means to be working class.

[Kamos]

An established fact? Child labor laws don't help? Civil rights laws don't help? You seem to have a hard time with the difference between fact an opinion.

Tell me how a child labor law helps to bring the revolution any closer, i.e. raise self-consciousness in any part of the working class and convince it that revolution is the only option.


Politics and elections are tools. Why refuse to use a tool if it can help get you what you want? Why exclude a valid option? If you think that minimum wage laws do not help real families then you have a strange idea about what it means to be working class.

As you can see, there is a difference between making a family's life easier and helping the communist cause. Social democrats do only the former, and never (intentionally) the latter, for example. So, still think that elections are valid tools for communist revolution?

[Terminator X]

Like I said before, this isn't much different than the DSA's platform/approach, and it's hardly revolutionary. You mentioned that the DSA isn't "functioning anymore" - are you trying to take their place? Hell, the Greens aren't too dissimilar from what you're proposing, either.

What exactly are you proposing that the Greens/DSA aren't? Why should the Iron Front USA exist? What role will it play amongst the left and in US politics?

[The Teacher]

Child labor laws help by saving the lives of children. If you don't think that is a goal worthy of fighting for then I don't know what to say. For the record, I'm not a communist, I don't care about revolution as an asbract concept, I'm talking about fighting for issues that actually matter to real workers who are being oppressed by real institutions.

[The Teacher]

Like I said before, this isn't much different than the DSA's platform/approach, and it's hardly revolutionary. You mentioned that the DSA isn't "functioning anymore" - are you trying to take their place? Hell, the Greens aren't too dissimilar from what you're proposing, either.

What exactly are you proposing that the Greens/DSA aren't? Why should the Iron Front USA exist? What role will it play amongst the left and in US politics?

The Greens and other left political parties share the same flaw as the Democrats, they are utter wimps. They only utilize their political voice without full realization of their economic and physical strength.

[Kamos]

Child labor laws help by saving the lives of children. If you don't think that is a goal worthy of fighting for then I don't know what to say.

It's worth fighting for, but not in the context of a revolution. If you do not see the difference between fighting for human rights and various other leftist causes and fighting for a communist revolution, then I really don't see any point in continuing.


For the record, I'm not a communist,

...I see.


I'm talking about fighting for issues that actually matter to real workers who are being oppressed by real institutions.

You mean, like capitalism?

[Terminator X]

The Greens and other left political parties share the same flaw as the Democrats, they are utter wimps. They only utilize their political voice without full realization of their economic and physical strength.

I actually think you have that backwards - the Democrats only utilize economic strength for the most part, and rarely their political voice. If an economic windfall is to be gained, most Democrats capitulate to whatever corporate entity is doing the bidding.

And what do you mean by "physical strength" - aren't you anti-revolution? How else would physical strength be used other than through a violent struggle?

Based on what you propose, I'm not entirely sure that a site catering to the Revolutionary Left is for you.

[The Teacher]

Yes. Like capitalism. Is it better to improve the lives of the working class, here and now in the real world, or wax philosophical about how great the world will be generations from now when somebody finally gets of their buts and have a revolution that is "worthy" of support from the left?

[Tim Finnegan]

Tell me how a child labor law helps to bring the revolution any closer, i.e. raise self-consciousness in any part of the working class and convince it that revolution is the only option.
Why do I get a mental image of you sitting at a desk with bloodshot eyes, swaying drunkly back and forth as you type, muttering "sleep does not help the revolution..." :rolleyes:

[Kamos]

Yes. Like capitalism. Is it better to improve the lives of the working class, here and now in the real world, or wax philosophical about how great the world will be generations from now when somebody finally gets of their buts and have a revolution that is "worthy" of support from the left?

Both, of course. If you have a problem with talking about theory, what do you propose we should do on this forum?


Why do I get a mental image of you sitting at a desk with bloodshot eyes, swaying drunkly back and forth as you type, muttering "sleep does not help the revolution..." :rolleyes:

Because you're high?

[The Teacher]

I actually think you have that backwards - the Democrats only utilize economic strength for the most part, and rarely their political voice. If an economic windfall is to be gained, most Democrats capitulate to whatever corporate entity is doing the bidding.

And what do you mean by "physical strength" - aren't you anti-revolution? How else would physical strength be used other than through a violent struggle?

Economic strength means strikes, boycotts, walkouts, etc. Physical strength means protests, direct action, and self-defense against political violence.

[The Teacher]

Both, of course. If you have a problem with talking about theory, what do you propose we should do on this forum?

You can't have your cake and eat it too. My whole point is that when someone proposes a real effort to help actual people all you hear from the far left is that it isn't good enough. Maybe if they tried to help the workers they would be more open to leftist ideas. Instead the left criticizes workers for trying to improve their lot by decrying "reforism" and looking down on "liberals."

[Kamos]

You can't have your cake and eat it too. My whole point is that when someone proposes a real effort to help actual people all you hear from the far left is that it isn't good enough. Maybe if they tried to help the workers they would be more open to leftist ideas. Instead the left criticizes workers for trying to improve their lot by decrying "reforism" and looking down on "liberals."

Refer to post #26 in this thread.

[Tim Finnegan]

Because you're high?
...What? :confused:

[Kamos]

...What? :confused:

You posted a witty, otherwise hardly useful little comment so I replied with one of my own. No offense intended or taken.

[Rusty Shackleford]

a nation wide front against a group that isnt a nationwide threat to the working class?

i mean seriously. yeah nazis are everywhere but they dont do shit except for shooting each other and getting shot by their kids.

[wunderbar]

DSA is still around, unfortunately.

[The Teacher]

Just to be clear, I am not talking about the so-called neo-nazis who are just sad little kids looking for attention. I mean serious threats to liberty and equality that are a powerful force on the American right at present.

[Frank Zapatista]

"Iron Front" sounds like a scary Fascist party and to be honest reminds me on the Iron Guard. The idea is good but the name Iron Front is just bound to scare people away. Sounds a bit totalitarian.

[The Teacher]

"Iron Front" sounds like a scary Fascist party and to be honest reminds me on the Iron Guard. The idea is good but the name Iron Front is just bound to scare people away. Sounds a bit totalitarian.

I've gotten the same response from several people. I mean, it has to be a LITTLE scary to be effective. But I certainly don't want people thinking I am advocating for something hideous.