"Being Gay is not a Sin" - Clergy Proclamation

[NoOneIsIllegal]

http://www.ketv.com/r/28214658/detail.html

Local church in my town may be practicing what Jesus taught for once! :cool:


Rev. Eric Elnes, pastor of Countryside Community Church, said the proclamation was created because, “we were just fed up with the popular notion that the Christian point of view is anti-gay.”

...

The ministers will join together... to publicly unveil the proclamation and show full acceptance of gay, lesbian, bi-sexual and transgender people.

...

“We believe homosexuality is not a sin. It’s not a birth defect or a choice. God created people this way. And if God created them this way, they need to be honored for who they are, and fully included in church life and wider society,”

...

“The whole point of Christianity is love and compassion,” said Chapin. Elnes said in ministering to gay, lesbian and transgendered people, he’s learned that he must first convince them that God doesn’t hate them before he can share the message that God loves them.“It’s very clear and very simple. We want to be open to all people."

[Queercommie Girl]

About fucking time. He is 2000 years too late.

[ZrianKobani]

As gay as I am, I don't think anyone is wise in firmly saying one way or the other as to where homosexuality falls theologically.

I think anyone who has been willing to enter the complexity of exegetical disagreements among scholars, who has studied the variety of hermeneutical methods within the Christian community, who has considered the particularities of history and culture on textual context, has set face-to-face with gay, same-sex attracted, and ex-gay Christians for long haul conversations over years of friendship, and who have wrestled to apply their understanding of God’s character to this deeply human question of the application of grace for this particular situation in our broken world will avoid black and white simplistic and reductionistic answers like “the Bible is clear”. I think anyone who has done this homework with an open heart and spirit, who may indeed have their own convictions about God’s best way forward for a same-sex attracted disciple, will also have the capacity to say they could be wrong. ~Wendy Gritter

(http://btgproject.blogspot.com/2011/01/certainty-conviction.html)

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

Ah cool. I'll tell my gay friends that someone's god said that they're allowed to be gay now.

[Queercommie Girl]

As gay as I am, I don't think anyone is wise in firmly saying one way or the other as to where homosexuality falls theologically.

I think anyone who has been willing to enter the complexity of exegetical disagreements among scholars, who has studied the variety of hermeneutical methods within the Christian community, who has considered the particularities of history and culture on textual context, has set face-to-face with gay, same-sex attracted, and ex-gay Christians for long haul conversations over years of friendship, and who have wrestled to apply their understanding of God’s character to this deeply human question of the application of grace for this particular situation in our broken world will avoid black and white simplistic and reductionistic answers like “the Bible is clear”. I think anyone who has done this homework with an open heart and spirit, who may indeed have their own convictions about God’s best way forward for a same-sex attracted disciple, will also have the capacity to say they could be wrong. ~Wendy Gritter

(http://btgproject.blogspot.com/2011/01/certainty-conviction.html)

Yeah, like I really care what some Christian priest has to say on this matter anyway. :rolleyes:

[ComradeMan]

Yeah, like I really care what some Christian priest has to say on this matter anyway. :rolleyes:

Well you should do seeing as you often rant about religion all the time, and also it's strange because you replied to this post immediately.
:rolleyes:

[Queercommie Girl]

Well you should do seeing as you often rant about religion all the time, and also it's strange because you replied to this post immediately.
:rolleyes:

Anything particularly wrong in criticising religions that are queerphobic? Or are they beyond criticism due to the need for "religious tolerance"? :rolleyes:

I have no tolerance for queerphobic religions, and frankly I'm surprised to see there are any self-proclaimed "leftist" today who isn't explicitly critical of religious fundamentalism and theocracy.

Besides, one's relationship with God is a personal one (not that I personally subscribe to theism), rather than something that is dictated by the reactionary views of the clerical establishment in a reactionary class society. I said I don't give a shit about what a priest might say, I didn't make a point about religion in general. Or do you think religious/spiritual belief is dependent on a priesthood?

And where exactly did I "rant about religion all the time"? Can you provide a link? I didn't even join most of the atheism vs. theism debates on this forum.

[Queercommie Girl]

As gay as I am, I don't think anyone is wise in firmly saying one way or the other as to where homosexuality falls theologically.

I think anyone who has been willing to enter the complexity of exegetical disagreements among scholars, who has studied the variety of hermeneutical methods within the Christian community, who has considered the particularities of history and culture on textual context, has set face-to-face with gay, same-sex attracted, and ex-gay Christians for long haul conversations over years of friendship, and who have wrestled to apply their understanding of God’s character to this deeply human question of the application of grace for this particular situation in our broken world will avoid black and white simplistic and reductionistic answers like “the Bible is clear”. I think anyone who has done this homework with an open heart and spirit, who may indeed have their own convictions about God’s best way forward for a same-sex attracted disciple, will also have the capacity to say they could be wrong. ~Wendy Gritter

(http://btgproject.blogspot.com/2011/01/certainty-conviction.html)

Theology is always open to interpretation. I will apply a Zen Buddhist paradigm to Christianity and say that when it comes to theology, there is no such thing as "absolute truth". Religious "truth" is dependent upon interpretation. When a liberation theologist reads the bible, he/she sees it LGBT-friendly messages, when a right-wing fundamentalist reads the same bible, he/she sees laws against homosexuality and cross-dressing. It depends on one's ideological stance.

So no the bible is not absolutely clear on this matter. In fact, it is not clear on most other matters either. What's more, it cannot even be absolutely clear potentially even in principle. Personally I'm an explicit atheist but I will say that when it comes to religion the important thing is not to seek the "absolute truth" in the explicit sense, but rather how one relates to God or the Ultimate Reality on a personal level. It's the spirituality at a personal level that is important, not purely abstract dogma.

[Sun at Eight]

I wondered if the Countryside Community Church was a member of the Metropolitan Community Churches, which is a denomination whose raison d'être is to bring together LGBT Christians and allies, but it turns out it's a member of the liberal/progressive United Churches of Christ, which is a staunch mainline church (as opposed to Roman Catholic or capital-E Evangelical).

Since Roman Catholic churches, particularly with the increased authoritarianism under John Paul II and Benedict XVI, only have LGBT-friendly (and sometimes only gay male friendly) congregations on the semi-down-low, the organizations that can make the biggest impact are congregations coming out of the Evangelical tradition, which are often independent. This unfortunately doesn't happen as often as it should.

However, attempting to build a coalition of local LGBT-friendly religious figures and communities and publicly proclaiming it (especially in a place like Omaha ;) ) is a good thing regardless of your opinion of religion or Christianity, since moving the argument into the churches as something loved by God can root out homophobia more effectively than a "siege mentality". Although homophobia and misogyny are where religion seems to be most reactionary and hasn't been confronted historically, making allies of (or, as the anti-communists would put it, co-opting) religious people who can be made allies of has confronted all revolutions and significantly reformist movements.

[manic expression]

Yeah, like I really care what some Christian priest has to say on this matter anyway. :rolleyes:
If it gets one person to reconsider their homophobia and start to be more accepting of our LGBT sisters and brothers...then I care.

[ZrianKobani]

So no the bible is not absolutely clear on this matter.
That's the point I was making; that anyone who's done the work and is bold enough to say "the Bible says this" when it's a very un-clear topic, had best be ready to admit that they could be wrong.

[Sun at Eight]

Yeah, but the pastor who's organizing this proclamation isn't saying "the Bible is clear" - he's saying his interpretation of God and Christianity makes it clear and it's one he shares with other Christians who he feels are drowned out by homophobic Christians. If you're responding to NoOneIsIllegal, well, the Jesus of the Gospels never mentioned same-gender love, attraction or sexual activity (just trying to get around ahistorical discussions of homosexuality and homosexual identity). The Bible is always an act of interpretation: consider that one of the early capitalist theological advances was to figure out how make charging interest (usury) okay for Christians, which the Jesus of the Gospels did rail against.

Also, it seems like the linked blog post you quoted comes from a group of Christians who only recently managed to split from the infamous Exodus International "ex-gay conversion" ministries to what looks like somewhat better positions on LGBT albeit still very unwilling to come down on any position unambiguously because of their views on Biblical inerrancy. This is, to be fair, the Evangelical demographic that needs this change the most, although the "mainline" churches like the UCC and its pastor leading this proclamation often have much more liberal/progressive politics in the leadership than in the pews and so this proclamation isn't "preaching to the choir" (although considering that cliche that might be one of the more LGBT friendly areas).