Burning out.

[Broletariat]

Not really seeing a point in getting all hyper-knowledgable on Communism and Marx and such. Revolution comes from the working class, and isn't a question of consciousness. Why do I need to know all that much anyway? Nowadays, just convincing people of the absolute basics is difficult enough, what use is the more high-end theory? Most of this is mostly common sense anyway.

Someone make me feel like I should keep trying or something, I don't know.

[Spawn of Stalin]

I really have no desire to learn any new theory unless I find out about something interesting I haven't heard about yet.

To be honest I find that people who get too hung up on theory are usually not the type of people I identify with at all

[Broletariat]

I really have no desire to learn any new theory unless I find out about something interesting I haven't heard about yet.

To be honest I find that people who get too hung up on theory are usually not the type of people I identify with at all


I'm kind of the opposite, for a while I was very interested in new theory. And I definitely identify with people like Zanthorus and ZeroNowhere.

Where I lack knowledge, I defer to those who have it. I don't really see much a use for any knowledge beyond what I already know though.

[jake williams]

Revolution comes from the working class, and isn't a question of consciousness.
Political consciousness really does matter. The working class can't make a revolution without advanced political consciousness - we have all the material means to do it, but we're not doing it, basically because the level of class consciousness is quite low.

[Broletariat]

Political consciousness really does matter. The working class can't make a revolution without advanced political consciousness - we have all the material means to do it, but we're not doing it, basically because the level of class consciousness is quite low.

How advanced are we talking? Do you think every worker needs to know about the transformation problem and a solution to it in order for there to be a revolution?

I recall Marx talking of revolution in terms of spontaneous uprisings of the working-class. Basically the working-class just being fed up with the way things are and then trying to find another way to work things. Proposing the idea that, hey, maybe the people who produce the wealth of society should control society, doesn't seem too difficult to comprehend. So I really fail to see why such an advanced political consciousness is necessary.

[jake williams]

How advanced are we talking? Do you think every worker needs to know about the transformation problem and a solution to it in order for there to be a revolution?

I recall Marx talking of revolution in terms of spontaneous uprisings of the working-class. Basically the working-class just being fed up with the way things are and then trying to find another way to work things. Proposing the idea that, hey, maybe the people who produce the wealth of society should control society, doesn't seem too difficult to comprehend. So I really fail to see why such an advanced political consciousness is necessary.
As we speak I'm talking to a few friends about the dangers of anti-politics and third positionism. There's an incredible rise, especially in Europe, of a right populism masquerading as a defender of liberty, the nation, and in some places, even liberal modernity. It can be very dressed up in the traditional language of the left - popular sovereignty, democracy, often-valid critiques of finance capitalism and large corporations, and so on. And it's really dangerous.

Getting it right matters. There are certainly aspects of Marxist theory which have virtually no relevance to practical revolutionary politics. But it's not enough just to let whatever might happen happen. The bourgeoisie knows this, and puts considerable effort into class-conscious politics and strategy. Politics is always a difficult, conscious act.

[Broletariat]

As we speak I'm talking to a few friends about the dangers of anti-politics and third positionism. There's an incredible rise, especially in Europe, of a right populism masquerading as a defender of liberty, the nation, and in some places, even liberal modernity. It can be very dressed up in the traditional language of the left - popular sovereignty, democracy, often-valid critiques of finance capitalism and large corporations, and so on. And it's really dangerous.

Getting it right matters. There are certainly aspects of Marxist theory which have virtually no relevance to practical revolutionary politics. But it's not enough just to let whatever might happen happen. The bourgeoisie knows this, and puts considerable effort into class-conscious politics and strategy. Politics is always a difficult, conscious act.

I'm not really "anti-politically." I love engaging in political dialogue with people. I love talking about some of the basic and sub-advanced pieces of Marxism. What I do not understand, is why all the hyper-advanced such is important.

I don't think the bourgeois are really that worried about us tbh, nor do I think politics are always a conscious act, nor even difficult.

[Broletariat]

Dammit guys, I want someone to come in here and be like, BUT BROLETARIAT, if you don't do this then we're all doomed. Then I'll be like oh okay.

[Fawkes]

Knowledge of any kind is never useless and always serves a constructive purpose. Much of high-end theory is just "high-end" because of the language used, most of it can be brought down to a very tangible level, though that doesn't necessarily make it "common sense". An example would be Walter Benjamin's The Work of Art in the Age of Mechanical Reproduction. When I first read it I found it to be an incredibly dense and difficult piece, but as I reread it and slowed down, I was able to see how this very lofty and sometimes jargony theory was very applicable to my everyday life and could easily be thought of in a very material and tangible sense, though it still was definitely not common sense by any means.

[Blake's Baby]

OK Broletariat; I want to know what the problem really is.

Do you feel that you exist in a sort of vacuum where your knowledge of theory doesn't relate to the real world because you're such a small part of it? A sort of 'fine, when the revolution comes I know how my house can join in, now let's generalise that... shit the world is big' kinda feeling?

If so, hey don't worry, we all have that. The thing is, you have to stay the course. It's like Game Theory - if we don't trust that you're going to stick with it, we might as well all give up to. You have to, Broletariat, without you we're doomed :cool:

No, seriously, we are all members of the worldwide working class; our individual consciousness, like any worker, is related to but not identical to overall class consciousness. We get depressed and disheartened with revolutionary politics. Sometimes it's very hard to feel like there's a point if you can't see concrete results of your actions. What is the relationship between an individual's grasp of theory, their actions, and overall class struggle? Especially if that theory can sometimes seem quite divorced from what's going on around us.

But looked at another way, what's your motivation anyway? Are you really doing this for instatnt gratification? Nah, have some cake instead. This is definitely a long game and you don't know what effects your efforts are having. All our experiences are only partial, so we never see a lot of the positive developments in the world, often we don't even see what positive effects we're causing I think.

Are you in an organisation? If you are, are you happy with it, or is one of the problemns there? If you're not, do you have any significant face-to-face relationships with other communists? Or do you just read websites and reviews? Relating to an organisation is great but it's very isolating if you're the only person from your tendency you know. Are there any discusssion groups near where you are?

For what it's worth, I've enjoyed and appreciated some of your posts, so your effect on the world around you isn't zero; and I can't see how equipping youself with more knowledge can be a bad thing. As long as you keep a critical head on you - Marxism is susceptable to criticism from a Marxist perspective after all - you should get by. It's a method, not a dogma. But you don't have to assimilate every bit of theory to become GargantuBrain the SuperMilitant; you can't substitute yousrself for the whole working class.

Confidence in the working class and solidarity with the revolutionary movement - in short I think that's where the answer to you existential angst lies.

Chin up mate, keep at it, eh? as we say in this particular emoptionally-repressed corner of the globe. :)

[Jimmie Higgins]

Not really seeing a point in getting all hyper-knowledgable on Communism and Marx and such. Revolution comes from the working class, and isn't a question of consciousness. Why do I need to know all that much anyway? Nowadays, just convincing people of the absolute basics is difficult enough, what use is the more high-end theory? Most of this is mostly common sense anyway.

Someone make me feel like I should keep trying or something, I don't know.

There is no point really in knowledge for the sake of knowledge - any knowledge has to have some use for you otherwise I agree, what's the point. But I think a lot of revolutionary theory is important and is useful to us - if only in being able to debunk liberal and conservative ideas. In more revolutionary times, establishment liberals will start to "talk-left" and reformists will also take on the kinds of issues that revolutionaries generally talk about but will seek to use their version of different theories for why there is oppression or inequality in order to keep class anger "in the box" of capitalist ideology. So while I'd much rather read a phone book than marxist economics, it is useful to me in order to understand this crisis and why Keynesianism, for example, can not ultimately solve the economic crisis (even if in some ways it might make things easier for the working class in the short-term).

But I don't think you need to know every theory in depth - and a lot will not be relevant to you until you are confronted by real-world situations which you need answers to or an understanding of. I've read, for example, that Eugene Debs didn't read Marx as much as he read the news of the day and various labor-publications - but he was still a great agitator and organizer and spokesperson.

Anyway, self-education IMO should just be an ongoing thing and needs to relate to practice otherwise it becomes more of an academic exercise.

[graymouser]

The main reason to study revolutionary theory is so that you develop a keen understanding of when to act and how. In my branch of Socialist Action we've been reading Felix Morrow's Revolution and Counter-Revolution in Spain, and one of the things it has really brought up for us is the question of understanding the timing and the dynamics of a revolutionary situation, and being able to intervene with the correct tactics for the moment (which none of the would-be leaders of the Spanish workers did). Of course our tradition places a tremendous importance on the role of the revolutionary party.

We also have an idea that stems from a practical reality of the Socialist Workers Party in the '40s, that every member should be able to be a leader. In 1943, the US government sent most of the SWP's National Committee to prison under the Smith Act and a whole new leadership had to emerge from the party ranks. So we place a lot of emphasis on cadre building and education, so that comrades would be able to step into leadership if they need to. I also think it creates a more democratic party when everybody involved has a good theoretical level and can participate as equals in the big discussions, instead of having a few gurus sort of spouting off their wisdom to the rest.

Now, there's important theory and there's relatively unimportant theory. For instance, the Transformation Problem can be left to the experts since it will mostly come up in formal debates with economists, but I think an average revolutionary should have a good grasp on how capitalism works, how imperialism works, the nature of the state, and a good variety of other important questions. But I also think that theoretical knowledge needs to be paired with action, it's a big part of our tradition. (Heck, it's in the group's name.)

[Sasha]

like always in these threads i point to the Leval quote in my sig and go my merry way not reading any political theory at all.
i'm not one bit ashamed to admit i never finished das kapital and i'm firmly planning to keep it that way until at least after my retirement..
and i still think i'm an pretty worthwhile activist though...

[Hit The North]

For Marxists, at least, there should be a correspondence between theory and action. As Marx said, all real questions have practical solutions. Our 'theory' should combine an analysis of a concrete situation and its solution. This way, we ensure that we have the ability to convince workers of the need for a revolutionary stance to capitalism, as opposed to a reformist or escapist stance. So it becomes important for us, as revolutionaries intervening in the class struggle, that we can explain how capitalism works, why it always fucks up the working class, and what the working class needs to do to overcome it. This means we need to understand the LTV, the tendency to crisis, the class nature of the state under capitalism, the lessons of previous struggles, etc., and have the ability to relate this 'theory' to other workers. We are what Gramsci called the 'organic intellectuals' of our class.

[Hit The North]

like always in these threads i point to the Leval quote in my sig ...


Leval quote:
Our comerades had not read Marx and were scarcely familiar with all of Proudhon's theories, but comon sense was their guide." Gaston Leval on the spanish revolution

Yes, that went well for the Spanish revolution, didn't it?

[Hit The North]

BTW, why is this interesting thread being squandered in the "Non-political" forum?

Moved to Theory.

[Sasha]

Leval quote:

Yes, that went well for the Spanish revolution, didn't it?


think it would all have gone a lot better if some more players on the republican/revolutionary side where led by common sense instead of sectarian backstabbing, powerplays and petty personal antagonisms.

[PhoenixAsh]

I did read Das Kapital and a fat lot of good it did me in my activism. The only time I use it is whem I debate with the radical left and with entrenched capitalists. In the first situation it always degenerates to sectarianism and debates bout details....in the second it never ever goes anywhere.

Because of theory we, my group, didn't support, in hindsight, worthwhile actions because they didn't agree with us on detail. We had endless and unsolvable debates about technicalities and forgot about the big picture....untill we lost people who were tired of the debates. So we branched out. We stopped analysing theories against each other. We still have those debates but they are debates how to solve practical issues.

Obviously this isn't an argument agaist theory. Its more subtile than that. We need theory...as long as its practical and it can be used to relate to practical situations theory is just fine. And we definately need people who are schooled in theory.

But you are not more revolutionry when you can cite all the obscure quotes and remember what Marx, Lenin, Proudhon or who ever wrote on a certain topic. Its usefull in some cases, definately.

But what we also need is people who use their common sense. We do not look for the theoretical answers but look for practical answers....in other words...I know how to make a chair in theory. I need somebody to help make it for me who knows how it is actually done.

Its a symbiosis. If you do not feel inklined to learn the theory but you know what is the right course. Not because some dude over 100 years go wrote why you should do it, but because its the most sensible thing to do...then why do you need to know the theory?

So I just read theory these days to inform me about situations I encounter. I think about it and I think about how, if at all, I can use it to help me, my group, the struggle.

[Hit The North]

think it would all have gone a lot better if some more players on the republican/revolutionary side where led by common sense instead of sectarian backstabbing, powerplays and petty personal antagonisms.

You'd need to tell me what you mean by 'common sense' before I can accept your point. The problem is that common sense is relative, depending on the point of view. It might make common sense, for instance, to the Stalinists to carve up the anarchists in order to attain leadership of the struggle. Or vise versa. Certainly you can't use 'common sense' to refer to an over-arching viewpoint or set of values that would allow us to assess the flow of events or the political relations of men. For that you need theory.

Seems to me there's no reason why 'common sense' is not more likely to lead to sectarian manoeuvring between competing groups.

[o well this is ok I guess]

We get "hyper knowledgeable" so we can create and convince each other of specific theories and ideas.
Revolution becomes especially more difficult when we don't know what exactly we're doing and to what end, Che Brovara.

[Broletariat]

But looked at another way, what's your motivation anyway? Are you really doing this for instatnt gratification? Nah, have some cake instead. This is definitely a long game and you don't know what effects your efforts are having. All our experiences are only partial, so we never see a lot of the positive developments in the world, often we don't even see what positive effects we're causing I think.

Are you in an organisation? If you are, are you happy with it, or is one of the problemns there? If you're not, do you have any significant face-to-face relationships with other communists? Or do you just read websites and reviews? Relating to an organisation is great but it's very isolating if you're the only person from your tendency you know. Are there any discusssion groups near where you are?

I think I'm just growing apathetic. This could do with the fact that school just got out so I'm just not in a studious mode right now anyway. It could have to do with the fact that I'm not part of the working class for the time being.

I think your first piece I've quoted here is slightly more disheartening than encouraging. It's like, okay this thing will take forever, I seem p. insignificant, I'll just go about my life and fight Capitalism when it's convenient instead of actively going out and looking for a battle while constantly reading theory.

I think I'd be a lot more effective were there any organisations at all around me. The closest commie (I use this word liberally) to me that I've noticed is TVM. When I head to uni I plan on organising some sort of people sympathetic or something I don't know. I'm a people person, and extremely charismatic. I'm good at public speaking, and connecting with people personally. Reading out of books with no human interaction for something I see as very socially oriented just doesn't click with me I guess, I do just fine reading about philosophy in books or other such topics because I don't view them as social endeavors. I love learning about Communism and such from people, I guess I'm just having a hard time with sitting down and reading about it, and this apathy is infecting me elsewhere too.

My entire "career" of communism has taken place over the internet I think is my main problem. I'm not seeing much results obviously. I mean, I've started a reading group on Das Kapital on another forum elsewhere that a dozen or so people are on a e-mail list for, I've "converted" roughly 20 or so people to the more radical left, and I'm trying to start some other project on the net too. But I find my apathy is going to crush these projects.

I think I just need to will myself forward or something.

[graymouser]

I actually think "common sense" is a terrible thing for revolutionaries to rely on. As Marx and Engels said, "The ideas of the ruling class are in every epoch the ruling ideas" - meaning that common sense as such descends from bourgeois ideology. So to some degree, leaning in the direction of common sense as such means that your strategic path may be riddled with errors stemming from unquestioned bourgeois ideology.

What we frequently see is that untrained masses of people, acting as best they know how, can frequently exhibit an excellent tactical sense. This is very important, in times of conflict, and shouldn't be underestimated. You don't need a great knowledge of theory in order to win strikes, hold successful demonstrations, or engage in street fighting with bourgeois authorities. That's not the place or role of theory. But it can be deceptive, because in limited and short bursts, the masses can get the job done without having the kind of theoretical knowledge some of us work toward.

The problem is going from tactics to strategy, and that's where you can fall into pitfalls. If you haven't studied the history and the dynamics of your situation and others like it, which is basically what we are talking about with "theory," then you make fatal mistakes. You fail to nationalize the banks, for instance, which is a critical measure in the revolution; banks are access to resources and if you don't take them over you don't control them. And we can see this in looking at the Paris Commune and the Spanish revolution, when the banks were not taken over, and the disasters that befell them. Similarly with organs of workers' democracy, which in Spain were never consolidated. What this means is that there is a core of theory that needs to be studied carefully so that revolutionaries can merge with the best tactical fighters, finding the correct strategic moments to make moves. Even a good leadership makes mistakes - but it avoids crucial ones and corrects the ones it does make.

[Broletariat]

^I appreciate this post, but I feel like I have enough Marxist common sense (I'll add the qualifier to avoid confusion from now on) to avoid that trap.

[bcbm]

"there is more truth in one page of good fiction than there is in a shelf of academic or political works"

[black magick hustla]

what a hipster thing to say

[graymouser]

I think I'm just growing apathetic. This could do with the fact that school just got out so I'm just not in a studious mode right now anyway. It could have to do with the fact that I'm not part of the working class for the time being.

I think your first piece I've quoted here is slightly more disheartening than encouraging. It's like, okay this thing will take forever, I seem p. insignificant, I'll just go about my life and fight Capitalism when it's convenient instead of actively going out and looking for a battle while constantly reading theory.

I think I'd be a lot more effective were there any organisations at all around me. The closest commie (I use this word liberally) to me that I've noticed is TVM. When I head to uni I plan on organising some sort of people sympathetic or something I don't know. I'm a people person, and extremely charismatic. I'm good at public speaking, and connecting with people personally. Reading out of books with no human interaction for something I see as very socially oriented just doesn't click with me I guess, I do just fine reading about philosophy in books or other such topics because I don't view them as social endeavors. I love learning about Communism and such from people, I guess I'm just having a hard time with sitting down and reading about it, and this apathy is infecting me elsewhere too.

My entire "career" of communism has taken place over the internet I think is my main problem. I'm not seeing much results obviously. I mean, I've started a reading group on Das Kapital on another forum elsewhere that a dozen or so people are on a e-mail list for, I've "converted" roughly 20 or so people to the more radical left, and I'm trying to start some other project on the net too. But I find my apathy is going to crush these projects.

I think I just need to will myself forward or something.
The importance of face-to-face organization cannot be overstated. It took me a little while - I think from August 2004 to March 2005 - between getting radicalized and being out there, but I got out and interacting with people, and it changed things dramatically. My viewpoints became much less ethereal, I got to talk with comrades and eventually got steered in the correct direction. It makes a real difference both in politics and in understanding of theory.

[Broletariat]

The importance of face-to-face organization cannot be overstated. It took me a little while - I think from August 2004 to March 2005 - between getting radicalized and being out there, but I got out and interacting with people, and it changed things dramatically. My viewpoints became much less ethereal, I got to talk with comrades and eventually got steered in the correct direction. It makes a real difference both in politics and in understanding of theory.

I imagined as such, but I'm waiting until I get to uni before trying anything just because my parents are so conservative and such.

[Blake's Baby]

Wow, you're like 18? Hell man, don't worry. I really think it's likely to be a combination of flagging energies and the things already identified - a lack of seeing the connection between theory and practice, and a certain detatchment due to lack of face-to-face contact with other communists. I'm really not trying to belittle your dilemma, just saying that I'm confident you can overcome this obstacle.

Things will change when you go to uni. You never know, you might find all the leftists there are total tools, or you may have to found a Radical Students' Society or something, or you may find out there are lots of politically active people to relate to; whatever, things will change, and I suspect then you'll get motivated and active again.

Added to which, the way the world is going at the moment, I predict world revolution in 6-8 weeks... no, not really, obviously. But still, there are things happening that haven't been happening for decades. All us old gits who just about remember the '60s (OK, my political memory goes back to the early '70s) are very excited, there's no time for 'the youth' (that's you Bro) to get all ... mehh. Even if I did bum you out by saying it's a big world and you might not see all the good you do. It's true though. I didn't just mean in time, like 'in two hundred years, when you're dead, things will be better', but 'because of you a whole bunch of people are more receptive to revolutionary politics and some of those people are passing that on, and some of those people...' and it's like ripples in a pond, always spreading out. So it's not that you don't get to enjoy it, it's that your actions will have consequences you can't even imagine. That's an awesome and powerful thing.

That's me doing the 'help me Broli-Won Kenobi, you're my only hope' thing again, in case you hadn't noticed.

[Jimmie Higgins]

That's me doing the 'help me Broli-Won Kenobi, you're my only hope' thing again, in case you hadn't noticed.Political and cultural memory goes back to the 70s huh. You have to make a Dumbledore reference now, you're showing your age:D

I'm totally joking and it sounds like I'm about 10 years younger than you, so my political memory goes back to the time of "Empire Strike Back" and ET.

Actually I was talking with a younger comrade the other day and she said she hadn't ever seen Star Wars until about 2 years ago and I almost did a spit-take. I can't believe I'm organizing with people born in the 1990s now. For them Star Wars is relatively more before their time than the Free Speech movement was to me!

But seriously, Broletariat, Blake is right. I think you have plenty of time to take things at your own pace and as long as you are active and inquisitive about the political developments going on, you will begin to find what reading is actually useful to your political practice and what questions you need to read up on and develop your answers to. Living my whole life basically in a period of political decline and neoliberalism has demoralized a lot of people my age and a little older, but these are new times and I think younger people will probably pick up on revolutionary ideas much more easily and quickly than people have in the recent past because the stakes are so much higher and class war so much more out in the open.

Don't worry about it, we all feel a little burnt-out sometimes, but keep your balance and you will find your way through it.

[Broletariat]

Thanks guys.

But I am definitely a Star Wars child. My father made sure he shared the good parts of his childhood with me, Star Wars, Indiana Jones, In Living Colour, etc.