Age factor

[Eastside Revolt]

"Making peace with the establishment is an important aspect of maturity."

This was a political statement that I was asked if I agreed with or not on the political compass questionaire.

I found it quite interesting because this is not normally an issue that is often spoken about in politics or the media. However it is a good disscussion statement.

Has anyone else here found that many people of the older generation (especially the 60's & 70's) would agree with this statement around where you live?

I find this statement, quite a common point of view among a large percentage of the older generation that I regularly get into agruments about this type of shit with. They always tell me "oh you're young" when they can't argue back.

And does anyone else find that there is an underlying message in the media that just stort of says?: "It's okay you can stop rebelling now, they did that in the sixties and now there is no need". :unsure:

[UnionofSovietSocialistRepublics]

ah interesting, I think as usual its difficult to generalise with a statment such as that.
It depends what it meens by establishment really, i imagine many people will read that question and interpret it as teenage rebellion-things like gettin sent out of class n generally just bin a cock u kno, but for no reason in particular (rebel without a cause). I think many people on here would consider them selves unhappy with the establishment (taking the word to meen gov's and other authorities), however its not just for the sake of it, its more because we dont like what we see and hopefully it shouldnt really be something you will grow out of in ten or twenty years time. Views change-but only to a degree if you really believe in them.
In answer to the question on P. compass, i put disagree.

[Red Flag]

WOW.. I often here that from the older generation of the 60's and 70's.. I think it has to do with the fact that alot of them we're 'rebels' cuz that was the thing to do for them, it was like the 'in thing' then they realized they we're really doing nothing but smoking weed and dropping acid... then alot of them realized they needed money to live, and the ones that continued to be 'rebels' are now reffered to as 'old hippies'..

I got a quote from George Carlin that sort of applies to this:

"Human beings are kind of interesting from birth until they reach the age of a year and a half. Then they are boring until they reach fifty. By that time they're either completely defeated and fucked up, which makes them interesting again, or they've learned how to beat the game, and that makes them interesting too."

[Jesus Christ]

i believe that it is important to make peace with any establishment unless its under the most dire situations
in itself it is not an aspect of maturity, but an aspect of the aspect of maturity that is the responsibility to make your own decisions

ive never actually had to deal with older folks using this saying, being that my father was sort of a biker, and wasnt the craziest about hippies, funny actually

its not a big issue talked about in the media because its something Americans have seemed to forget about because they are used to their government NOT making peace with ANY establishment

and of course there is an underlying message in the media, its all tainted, and I think that it has effected everyone greatly, whether they realize it or not

[ComradeRobertRiley]

I know what you mean, when my parents found out I was a Communist they said "oh you'll grow out of it"

I thought what the fuck?

[Red Flag]

Yeah thats fucked up right?

'Dont worry son, you'll spirit will be crushed soon enough and you'll become one of us'

:lol:

[redstar2000]

It's funny; I've actually been called "an old hippy" on this board. :lol:

I think the reasons people "grow out" of youthful rebelliousness are varied. I recall when I was young that whenever people said things like "why don't you grow up and settle down?"...it always seemed to me that they were really saying "why don't you learn to like the taste of shit?".

I suspect one of the main factors is that people marry and have children. The weight of this responsibility is a powerful inhibition to expressing rebellious thinking...and, like anything else, it's "use it or lose it"---if you stop acting rebellious then it doesn't take long before you stop thinking rebellious thoughts.

It's not inevitable, of course--I've actually known couples with children who stayed rebellious and activist to the ends of their lives...and their kids became rebels too.

But it takes real effort to achieve that.

Also, people get discouraged. Every couple of months here we get some posts from a newbie shouting for "revolution NOW!" When that doesn't happen right away, they write a different kind of post..."I'm feeling like things are hopeless...".

This is really common in periods of reaction...like this one, right now.

Even people who are into this stuff "for the long haul" go through periods of inactivity or just periods of study without worrying about what's happening.

I think that what happens with people who "stay with it" is that they find a "niche"...a kind and type of radical political activity that they feel is genuinely useful and fulfilling to them personally.

That's not always easy to do; sometimes you have to try out a bunch of different things in a bunch of different groups to "find your niche"...sometimes you have to invent a niche.

The notion that "making peace with the establishment" is a "sign of maturity" is self-serving horseshit, of course. It's just a way of trying to make unconditional surrender sound "acceptable" and even "desirable".

The people who say that are simply burying their own shame...and disgust at what they've allowed themselves to become.

Slaves.

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

[Zafiro]

RedStar, great post!

Being a rebel is a way of life.

I married (a rebel too) and can tell that the same reponsabilities that cause many to settle down have fuel the rebel spirit within us. I wont lie, is difficult. But being honest to ourselves,to our values is the best example to our children.

Is true we found our 'niche'.We left the corporate world and both work independently and have time to give to our families and political/civic groups.

Everyday is a battle, I want to die a free person, not a slave!

[Iepilei]

In America, the older one gets - generally - the more they make (in terms of attaining higher education, etc)... these are the ones who are more apt to "accept" things as they are, because they've sacrificed so much of themselves to the bourgeoise to get where they are.

Don't bite the hand that feeds you, right? That's how bad doggies get put to sleep.

[Don't Change Your Name]

This is an interesting topic.

I am young, and I am sometimes scared of thinking than when I am a grown up and have a family and blah blah blah I will be a stupid robot of the system who even supports it.

I think that the problem is this: when people get older they see that the only way to survive is adapting to the environment (capitalism in this case) and having new responsabilities make them forget their ideals and they become surrounded by people who do not want to change the world. Then they see that changing people's minds is impossible and such a society like the one we want will then be impossible. At the same time people starts trying to steal you, abuse you and exploit you, and you then become hostile to the rest of the people, which means you will never have a sense of cooperation. That's were your leftist ideals die and you stop criticising capitalism.

That phrase from that political test probably means accepting capitalism, and if you say you "Strongly agree" the stas will make you more authoritarian.

[RyeN]

I see this as numbers of defeated brainwashed comrades. People will fight for something but against the overwhelming strength of the current capitolist system is hard. Every day the media and your co-workers telling you its not worth it. The system spreading propoganda, and diverting your eyes from the truth. The older people get the more tired they get of fighting an ongoing uphill battle.

I think it has to do with getting older in general because you have more of your life to reflect on. Sudenly there is the realization that you cant do it all and you give up trying, to focus on the most important parts of your life. People who still fight the sytem at an older age are true to thier cause and great examples. Dont let the machine break your spirit of rebelion no matter how old you get.

[sc4r]

It is a straightforward statistical fact that a huge proportion of people come more and more to accept the established system as they grow older.

And every young generation says that it will not. But all do (I rember Roger Daltry proclaiming to the world that 'I hope I die before I get old' - he meant 30. He's now almost 60, and a pillar of the establishment.

This (IMHO) stems from several reasons :

1. A common desire among the young to be seen as 'different'; but at the same time to belong to a 'tribe'. This causes them to espouse views which they hold not fundamentally because of any deep rooted belief but in order to belong while being individual.

This is also at the heart of why so many younger 'Socialists' learn the slogans more readily than they try to understand the substance. It achieves their real desire rather easily and completely with minimum effort. Sorry guys, but thats what I think.

2. AS one gets older in a liberal society one generally does aquire things which one would have to give up in a Socialist Society. Many can see the hypocrisy in proclaiming to be for something they would not actually feel comfortable supporting, and so renounce their views. The more extreme and unbending their former supposed views were, of course, the harder it is to fail to see the hypocricy. Hence one needs a more flexible (but more robust) initial set of ideals if they are to remain.

3. In related fashion many inducements are on offer to particpate in the aquisitive society. Its hard to actually turn them down, and many do not. Then see 2.

Fundamentally the problem is a straightforward variation on something I have talked about elsewhere. To maintain a long term commitment one needs to have, in effect, agreed in substance with the thing commited to. You cant do this if you are only agreeing with slogans, or are agreeing with something unworkable or unimplementable, or something which does not seem to be achieving progress. It's too easy to find an escape route.

But the most attractive slogans, the ones that make young people sound hugely individual, and committed, and moralistic, and fiery; do not have much in the way of substance behind them. They are in fact both contradictory, wafer thin, and are mere words.

You could take the decision, while you are young and committed, to relentlessly seek out substance, and restrain yourself from sloganising. That way you might hold onto something real which will not become unsupportable as you get older. Its a hard decision to take because it involves giving up quite a lot of the certainty and tribalism that is so attractive to your ego right now. In other words it does not satisfy the desire to 'be visible, important, and a member' to anything like the degree that learning the slogans will. But as far as Socialism goes it is the only way.

My advice - Forget Anarchism and utopian communism; they are flim flams as far as long term idealism goes. The substance of their practicality is tissue thin. These views are retained, mostly, only by misfits into adulthood, people who cannot find any other way to flatter their egos. Take a good hard look instead at pragmatic Socialist progress. Have a think about how one could retain a belief in Socialism while yourself benefitting from the circumstance that you happen to live in an advanced liberal society. Find a belief that alows you to reconcile those things. Dont simply promise that you wont fall prey to temptation; you will.

I believe you can find a solid sustainable belief in socialism; I believe I have done it. It gets me called a 'bougeoise sympathiser' etc. by those who love the slogans, but my ideals are rock solid with no apparent jagged edges or holes which could allow me to doubt them. The same cannot be said for Anarchism, or utopian Communism. It is no accident that my version of 'socialism' can attract interest even from middle aged Capitalists. It is not because it is Capitalist; it most certainly is not; it is because it actually stands up to hard scrutiny and all that needs doing to accept it is to accept the axiomatic truths that 'all men deserve an equal chance, no man should be grossly poor, all people are individuals, we should value this individuality, we should reward it where appropriate, we should as far as possible allow people to choose their own benefits'.

My 'agreement' with it is based on substance not on appearance in other words. But it is much harder to understand Substance than to remember slogans, you have to really want it and work at it.

Or in other words - If you give up dont blame 'the system'; blame yourself for choosing to accept something giveupable in the first place.

Best wishes.