Society has been slowly moving to the left

[Dogs On Acid]

Worker struggles have been productive.
For the past 200 years I have noticed a slow but effective progress to Socialism.

Capitalism will be abolished!

Evidence:

Unions
Welfare State
Less working hours
Harder to fire workers
Increasing living conditions for the working class
Subsidies
Education for all
In many countries, legality of Proletariat Parties

We can do it! Fight for more!

[Ose]

These things are all good for the workers, but they do not represent 'progress to socialism'. Capitalism cannot be abolished by the continuation of such reforms, as they have all been made within the context of capitalism. It could be argued that these reforms serve only as a device to placate the proletariat. A revolutionary transformation of society is the only way in which socialism can be established.

[Fopeos]

I certainly appreciate your optimism and agree that the future belongs to us, however, unions have been losing ground in recent decades due in part to the class-collaboration policies of the union officials. Many are convinced that "we" must make sacrifices for the good of "our" companies. As a result, workers are paying more for health insurance (when it's even offered), working longer hours, and in many cases enduring sped-up production. The capitalists can't afford not to push us into the corner and we can't afford not to push back. We've got to revitalize the union movement! If the union leaders aren't going to lead in a more militant, class-concious way, We will have to move forward around them.
In my last job, 12 hours of overtime were mandated to each worker, each week in addition to mandatory saturdays. We were also "cross-trained" so the company could cover all positions without the need for new hires. To add a final insult, the company cosed-up after 8 or 9 months of this "heightened productivity" and moved to the southern U.S. leaving between 3 and 4 hundred hard-working comrades unemployed

[Heathen Communist]

Completely true.
The right is being increasingly proved wrong, and (especially since the end of the "cold war") far left parties and ideologies are becoming increasingly accepted and supported. There's still a long way to go, but eventually Communism will prevail.

[Dogs On Acid]

The People will gain consciousness!

Internet, Public Libraries, Freedom of Speech... Products of the Capitalist system that will work in our favour!

As Marx said, each system will produce contradictions that will lead to it's demise!

Long live Marx!

[Blake's Baby]

On the other hand in the same period, the barbarism of two world wars, death camps and gulags, pogroms and massacres, hundreds of brutal and futile local wars, and the threat of nuclear armageddon; ecological catastrophe on an unprecidented scale, virulent strains of disease, social decay, and immiseration to the point of stavation for a third of the planet.

I saw some research recently that, contrary to popular opinion, peasants in England in the late Middle Ages (say, 1350-1500) had a better standard of living than many people in the third world today; they were healthier, lived longer, and had a bigger share of the material resources. I was pretty shocked by that, I have to admit, it kinda demonstrated that capitalism is actually taking society (at least some of it) backwards not forwards.

Don't want to rain on your parade if you're suggesting a gradualist approach, but capitalism is shit and if don't have a revolution soon millions will die unnecessarily. I won't say 'we can't survive another 30 years' because people have been saying that for centuries, but don't kid yourself, millions will die from the effects of capitalism in the next few decades. Reformism kills, and pinning your hopes on the slow boat to socialism kills too.

If what you were saying was 'look what our forbears have done, we need to go further, then... OK, I agree with you!

[Dogs On Acid]

On the other hand in the same period, the barbarism of two world wars, death camps and gulags, pogroms and massacres, hundreds of brutal and futile local wars, and the threat of nuclear armageddon; ecological catastrophe on an unprecidented scale, virulent strains of disease, social decay, and immiseration to the point of stavation for a third of the planet.

And yet the proletariat survives!


I saw some research recently that, contrary to popular opinion, peasants in England in the late Middle Ages (say, 1350-1500) had a better standard of living than many people in the third world today

England was a very advanced nation and has always been, and is incomparable today or in history to any "third world" (read extremely exploited) country. In the middle ages England was one of the most powerful European countries.


Don't want to rain on your parade if you're suggesting a gradualist approach

I'm not (Fight for more!)

[Niccolò Rossi]

And yet the proletariat survives!

Communism means the self-abolition of the proletariat.

Nic.

[Dogs On Acid]

Communism means the self-abolition of the proletariat.

Nic.

Are we living in communism? No.

So yes, the proletariat has endured all punishment by the bourgeoisie.

[Blake's Baby]

And yet the proletariat survives!



Wait a minute, that means that capitalism survives.. d'oh!

The survival of the proletariat is predicated on the survival of capitalism. It makes us; we are necessary for it, they aren't trying to get rid of us! All 'the survival of the proletariat' means is that capitalism has continued to survive and chain new generations to exploitation.



...
England was a very advanced nation and has always been, and is incomparable today or in history to any "third world" (read extremely exploited) country. In the middle ages England was one of the most powerful European countries...

Hmmm. I'm not really sure about this at all. I'd dispute that in the late Middle Ages it was as technologically or socially advanced as many other European and Middle Eastern countries; I'd dispute that it's not possible to compare England to third world countries today; and dispute that England was particularly powerful in the Middle Ages either.

I see capitalism as being when England takes the lead in Europe; from the 1500s onwards it begins to overtake its tradition rival, France, and in the 1600 really overtakes Spain (the first European superpower).




I'm not (Fight for more!)

I think we're on the same page here comrade!