Rendier (South Africa)

[06hurdwp]

Thread closed due to too many ignorant, judgemental retards getting the wrong idea.

[RedHal]

I can see why this clown appeals to certain whites in Europe and America. He cries about discrimination against white south africans, denies white priviledge and says blacks should get over slavery and apartheid.

[jake williams]

He is a white South African and has been producing videos criticising the ANC government and their racist actions & corruption for years.
Are you seriously one of those?


Btw, what is the average Communist's view on the ANC?
It's a social democratic political party created out of a huge and progressive mass movement. Its leadership still has reactionary elements, but the right wing has been losing out since their original coup under Mbeki in particular. The left is winning, and any communist should support that struggle.

[06hurdwp]

Well thanks for the opinions guys, I only watched a few of his vids he seemed like an alright guy and gave a bad impression of the ANC, I did suspect it was a very biased opinion though..

[The_Outernationalist]

Well thanks for the opinions guys, I only watched a few of his vids he seemed like an alright guy and gave a bad impression of the ANC, I did suspect it was a very biased opinion though..

I'm immediately suspicious of any white South African complaining about reverse racism.

[Iraultzaile Ezkerreko]

I'm immediately suspicious of any white South African complaining about reverse racism.

This. We had a thread a few months back about anti-white racism in South Africa or something. Thankfully the person who created it was restricted, I think.

[Crux]

"reverse racism" is bullshit, the ANC are corrupt sell-outs propping up a black bourgeoisie, while the average black worker still gets fucked over.

[Yazman]

"reverse racism" is bullshit, the ANC are corrupt sell-outs propping up a black bourgeoisie, while the average black worker still gets fucked over.


Everybody should just remember than the ANC really are, as quoted, sell-outs propping up a black bourgeoisie. All criticisms of this guy aside, they are the enemy too and not really to be supported.

[jake williams]

"reverse racism" is bullshit, the ANC are corrupt sell-outs propping up a black bourgeoisie, while the average black worker still gets fucked over.
The ANC is an organization of a mass movement with a long history and a large, class conscious membership. The ANC does indeed have a right wing leadership - a right wing leadership under open attack by the membership and which is being slowly pushed out of the party, since they took over the party in the 90s. Working class South Africans are incredibly politically conscious, largely because of decades of mass work that the ANC (and its coalition partners) have done.

The leadership of the ANC indeed supports a number of policies beneficial to a nascent black bourgeoisie, and corruption is certainly both rampant and harmful. But it's worth some caution in blaming them, ultimately and uniquely, for the situation of black workers (or worse, simply reiterating white hatred for existence of a black bourgeoisie). The main problem for black workers is the several centuries of colonialism, apartheid fascism, and today, capital flight and imperialist attack (threatened and actual). It's certainly true that insofar as ANC reformism has prevented the South African state from taking control of capital and land to an extent that would allow it to really solve the severe problems of underdevelopment, they do bare considerable responsibility. But ignorance of the historical conditions under which this reformism has taken hold does no one any good. Nor does ignoring the actual ways that this reformism can be overcome: the class struggle which, because of historical circumstances, is going on within the ANC.

[Crux]

The ANC is an organization of a mass movement with a long history and a large, class conscious membership. The ANC does indeed have a right wing leadership - a right wing leadership under open attack by the membership and which is being slowly pushed out of the party, since they took over the party in the 90s. Working class South Africans are incredibly politically conscious, largely because of decades of mass work that the ANC (and its coalition partners) have done.

The leadership of the ANC indeed supports a number of policies beneficial to a nascent black bourgeoisie, and corruption is certainly both rampant and harmful. But it's worth some caution in blaming them, ultimately and uniquely, for the situation of black workers (or worse, simply reiterating white hatred for existence of a black bourgeoisie). The main problem for black workers is the several centuries of colonialism, apartheid fascism, and today, capital flight and imperialist attack (threatened and actual). It's certainly true that insofar as ANC reformism has prevented the South African state from taking control of capital and land to an extent that would allow it to really solve the severe problems of underdevelopment, they do bare considerable responsibility. But ignorance of the historical conditions under which this reformism has taken hold does no one any good. Nor does ignoring the actual ways that this reformism can be overcome: the class struggle which, because of historical circumstances, is going on within the ANC.
The departure of Mbeki sadly does not signal a defeat of the right. Zuma, populism not withstanding, is not a representative of the left. The union leaders, allied with the ANC, have sold out the worker's time and time again.
http://www.socialistworld.net/doc/3565

[Crux]

Thread closed due to too many ignorant, judgemental retards getting the wrong idea.
Explain.

[06hurdwp]

Explain.


I've lost 15 rep and gotten insulting private messages and even been attempted to be banned by "ignorant, judgemental retards"

[06hurdwp]

by "ignorant, judgemental retards" i mean people who assume I am an imperialist, a racist and a white supremacist just because of the fact i mentioned the anc is corrupt.

[jake williams]

by "ignorant, judgemental retards" i mean people who assume I am an imperialist, a racist and a white supremacist just because of the fact i mentioned the anc is corrupt.
I'm not sure if anyone else is making that assumption on those grounds, but I'm certainly not. You favourably posted a video from someone who is clearly a white supremacist and a borderline (at least) apartheid apologist.
Majakovskij has argued that the ANC is corrupt (not without evidence), and although I don't exactly agree with their position, I don't think they're a white supremacist or apartheid apologist at all. The ANC is full of corrupt officials, something I've personally witnessed.


The departure of Mbeki sadly does not signal a defeat of the right. Zuma, populism not withstanding, is not a representative of the left. The union leaders, allied with the ANC, have sold out the worker's time and time again.
The departure of Mbeki, and a number of his supporters, is a significant victory for the left and a loss for the right, albeit one with limited consequences for every day living standards in the short term. While significant moves to the left have been limited, neoliberal tendencies have been slowed. "Less bad" really does matter.

Zuma is barely a leftist and not a communist (in how he actually governs, not his rhetoric), but he is a "representative" of the left in not simply the symbolic sense, which is significant. The South African working class despised Mbeki's right wing attacks, and so they threw him out. They're increasingly realizing the limitations of simply replacing Mbeki with Zuma, and they're not buying that the DA has anything better on offer. All of these things are progress. Expect good things from South Africa soon.

[Yazman]

Electing one puppet over another is hardly what I would call progress. This same line of thought claimed that electing Obama was progress, yet nothing really has changed.

I agree with Majakovskij - there needs to be a lot more than just a change of figureheads for us to really be able to say there's been a victory for the left.

[jake williams]

Electing one puppet over another is hardly what I would call progress. This same line of thought claimed that electing Obama was progress, yet nothing really has changed.
That line of thought totally ignores what's actually going on in South Africa, and the analogy between Obama and Zuma is absurd. Obama, as a candidate, was a product of the bourgeoisie and was put into power by the bourgeoisie. The working class had a very limited role. Virtually none of the bourgeoisie in or out of South Africa, including a lot of the black bourgeoisie whose man Mbeki very much was, supported Zuma. Obama was greeted enthusiastically both by big business in the US, and especially by the drooling sycophants in Europe. Zuma is constantly attacked, and for good reason.

Also, Obama's election had a heartbreaking demobilizing effect on mass struggle in the US. The peace movement was almost wiped out. In South Africa, mass organizing and radical politics have been very much enhanced by the election of Zuma. Again, this has nothing to do with him as a person, and has little to do with his policies being especially progressive. His election was first and foremost a sign that South Africans are going to insist on determining their own future, and it's for exactly that reason that they'll probably get rid of him soon.