The Politics of the Film "Deer Hunter"

[Rakhmetov]

Even the director Cimino aknowledged that the Russian roulette scene was not based on any real life incident form the war. "It was purely imaginative," he said.

Now imagine if the Germans made a film about Nazi P.O.W.s being held captive by Jewish resistance fighters and the latter forcing the former to play Russian Roulette. --- In other words making the aggressors into the victims. Can you imagine the howls and protests that would emerge from the Jewish community and by the Hollywood Jewish film moguls etc.? Now the Asians can be portrayed this way because "they are not human. They're gooks and therefore not valuable."

Ditto for the film Apocalypse Now. Director Francis F. Coppola has Colonel Kurtz (aka Marlon Brando) say that the Vietcong severed little children's arms that had been vaccinated and piled their arms in a huge pile. That is, a huge pile of severed arms. "The Horror! The Horror!" says Kurtz again and again. All this is accorded amazing praise by film critics and film buffs who know nothing about the history of the Vietnam War.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPi2AetitZc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_NwvO1UxN8

[Angry Young Man]

With the line 'The Horror! The Horror,' wasn't it supposed to be unanswered?

Anyway, I've never thought of the Russian Roulette scene from that angle before. Really something worth thinking on. But on a tangent, I was always under the impression that many Americans were quite aware of their country's guilt in Vietnam. What's always been more of a concern is that they don't accept any shame in the genocide of Native Americans.

[ZeroNowhere]

How criminal of film critics and film buffs to praise Apocalypse Now without ensuring that it is a historically accurate portrayal of the Vietnam War.

[Sean]

Sorry, but Deer Hunter is hardly an anti-Vietnamese movie. Sounds like you're focusing on the movie as a whole judged by how many thumbs up one clip on youtube gets from jingoists. Neither movie was particularly flag waving more than the stuff that the rest of the movie negates. I didn't like Apoc Now, mainly cause i thought it was too long. Showing the other side in a movie from another side negatively was pretty far down the list.

Maybe I'm being dense here, but are you pissed off that movies about war show people from the other side being assholes and committing atrocities our good ol boys wouldn't do? If so, I'd like you to try and retell either story without that plot device.

[LewisQ]

Ditto for the film Apocalypse Now. Director Francis F. Coppola has Colonel Kurtz (aka Marlon Brando) say that the Vietcong severed little children's arms that had been vaccinated and piled their arms in a huge pile. That is, a huge pile of severed arms. "The Horror! The Horror!"
As I'm sure you know, Apocalypse Now is a contemporary retread of Heart of Darkness. The severed arms thing is adapted from a similar passage in the book (in which I think they're severed hands), it's not being presented as an actual event from the Vietnam War. "The horror, the horror!" comes from Heart of Darkness too.

However, I agree with you in a sense. I have a real problem with American screen depictions of the Vietnam war, even supposedly progressive ones likes Platoon. Ever noticed how they're structured like sci fi films? The Vietnamese (especially combatants) are presented as unknowable, incomprehensibly alien. The war itself is shown purely and exclusively as an American psychodrama. Even where atrocities against the civilian population are depicted, it's always in the context of their effect on the GIs who perpetrated or witnessed them.

I genuinely don't believe it's an exaggeration to suggest that the majority of Americans, brought up on Vietnam movies, would be surprised to learn that U.S. servicemen did not, in fact, constitute the majority of those killed in the war. The effect of the conflict, psychologically and sociologically, on the United States is an important part of the story, but it is only a part of the story. And not the major part by any means.

[Book O'Dead]

I agree that neither Deer Hunter nor Apocalypse are historically accurate. But historical accuracy is not necessarily a basic requirement for a film to be a great work of art.

My complaint against Deer Hunter is that it is too long and boring. Apocalypse Now is much better, IMO, but suffers from the political vagueness that typically emanates from Hollywood films.

As much as I admire Stanley Kubrick I also think that his Full Metal Jacket is not such a good treatment of the Vietnam war.

Oliver Stone's treatment of the subject is quite good, technically, and has a great climax at the end, but suffers from the same problem.

There is one more film about the American experience in Nam that I liked very much but whose title escapes me. It stars Michael J. Fox and begins with a long flashback when he sees a young Vietnamese woman on bus in San Francisco. I can't rcall the title, but I do remember liking it when I saw it.

One unusual film that treats the subject of Nam is Jacob's Ladder, a horror film starring Tim Robbins and directed by Adrian Lynne (he made a version of Nabokov's Lolita which I liked very much because it starred Jeremy Irons and because the girl that played Lolita was most beautiful and sexy).

Jacob's ladder is a most unusual approach to the Vietnam topic, I think.

[Rakhmetov]

I agree that neither Deer Hunter nor Apocalypse are historically accurate. But historical accuracy is not necessarily a basic requirement for a film to be a great work of art.

My complaint against Deer Hunter is that it is too long and boring. Apocalypse Now is much better, IMO, but suffers from the political vagueness that typically emanates from Hollywood films.

As much as I admire Stanley Kubrick I also think that his Full Metal Jacket is not such a good treatment of the Vietnam war.

Oliver Stone's treatment of the subject is quite good, technically, and has a great climax at the end, but suffers from the same problem.

There is one more film about the American experience in Nam that I liked very much but whose title escapes me. It stars Michael J. Fox and begins with a long flashback when he sees a young Vietnamese woman on bus in San Francisco. I can't rcall the title, but I do remember liking it when I saw it.

One unusual film that treats the subject of Nam is Jacob's Ladder, a horror film starring Tim Robbins and directed by Adrian Lynne (he made a version of Nabokov's Lolita which I liked very much because it starred Jeremy Irons and because the girl that played Lolita was most beautiful and sexy).

Jacob's ladder is a most unusual approach to the Vietnam topic, I think.


Casualties of War is the name of the film with Fox & Penn.

[Rakhmetov]

As I'm sure you know, Apocalypse Now is a contemporary retread of Heart of Darkness. The severed arms thing is adapted from a similar passage in the book (in which I think they're severed hands), it's not being presented as an actual event from the Vietnam War. "The horror, the horror!" comes from Heart of Darkness too.

However, I agree with you in a sense. I have a real problem with American screen depictions of the Vietnam war, even supposedly progressive ones likes Platoon. Ever noticed how they're structured like sci fi films? The Vietnamese (especially combatants) are presented as unknowable, incomprehensibly alien. The war itself is shown purely and exclusively as an American psychodrama. Even where atrocities against the civilian population are depicted, it's always in the context of their effect on the GIs who perpetrated or witnessed them.

I genuinely don't believe it's an exaggeration to suggest that the majority of Americans, brought up on Vietnam movies, would be surprised to learn that U.S. servicemen did not, in fact, constitute the majority of those killed in the war. The effect of the conflict, psychologically and sociologically, on the United States is an important part of the story, but it is only a part of the story. And not the major part by any means.

How many young people read Conrad's Heart of Darkness??? Do you think that young people really are not affected by what they watch??? How many will want to join the military because they see Deer Hunter etc.?

[Rakhmetov]

With the line 'The Horror! The Horror,' wasn't it supposed to be unanswered?

Anyway, I've never thought of the Russian Roulette scene from that angle before. Really something worth thinking on. But on a tangent, I was always under the impression that many Americans were quite aware of their country's guilt in Vietnam. What's always been more of a concern is that they don't accept any shame in the genocide of Native Americans.


I'm virtually quoting Michael Parenti's complaint from his book Make-Believe Media: the Politics of Entertainment.

[praxis1966]

How many young people read Conrad's Heart of Darkness???

Tons. It's a rather commonly assigned piece of mandatory reading in American high schools.


Do you think that young people really are not affected by what they watch???

I don't want to speak for Lewis, but while I do think young people are affected by what they watch, that's a slippery slope you're on.


How many will want to join the military because they see Deer Hunter etc.?

That's an empirically unknowable quantity because first you'd have to prove that kind of an effect, then you'd have to figure out through some kind of statistical research, blah blah blah... You get the idea.

As for the specific case of Apocolypse Now, whether you like the execution or not it's an antiwar film. The whole point of it is not to state historical fact; indeed, none of the events in the film actually happened during the Vietnam War. What it is supposed to do is show the insanity of war and how it infects all sides regardless of their motivations or nobility of intent. At worst, its politics can be described as liberal pacifism since the whole point of the violence is to shock the viewer out of any romantic notions of soldiering.

[x359594]

What's missing from the discussion is the historical context of the The Deer Hunter. The Deer Hunter (and Apocalypse Now!) appeared when the US was still maintianing an embargo against Vietnam, refusing to provide humanitarian aid, make reperations, share medical information about the effects of agent orange, provide maps identifying the location of land mines that were still killing and maiming people, and punishing US NGOs that tried to provide assistance to Vietnam as well as other countries in the region that wanted to trade with Vietnam. The movie played in the USA in this particular anti-Vietnam, anti-peace movement context.

The Deer Hunter also gave rise to folklore about Russian roulette forced on US POWs, and certain right-wing politicians like Senator Jeremiah Denton (himself a POW) cited the atrocities against POWS depicted in The Deer Hunter as reasons for continuing to isolate Vietnam. Rightly or wrongly The Deer Hunter was seen as pro-war and anti-reconciliation. It was also around this time that the "peace activists spitting in Vietnam veterans' faces" folklore made the rounds in the media. In other words, it was a period of cultural reaction brought on by the defeat of US imperialism in the recent war, and The Deer Hunter played into that.

The same can't be said of Apocalypse Now! however inaccurate its portrayal of the war; it was never spun as a pro-war movie. But Apocalypse Now! also shares in common with The Deer Hunter the notion that the USA was the main victim of the war and not the Vietnamese.

Karma (1985) by Ho Quang Minh was one Viet Nam war movie made by a Vietnamese filmmaker and shot on location that was released in the West. It was a 16mm black & white picture (blown up to 35mm) that is framed by the funeral of an ARVN soldier and takes the point of view of his widow. The picture unfolds in flashbacks and each act is punctuated by a funeral. The combat scenes were reminiscent of Sam Fuller's The Steel Helmet. US personnel exist in the background the way the Vietnamese exist as background in US Viet Nam movies. It should be screened as a double feature with all those Hollywood Viet Nam war movies mentioned above.

[renzo_novatore]

Now imagine if the Germans made a film about Nazi P.O.W.s being held captive by Jewish resistance fighters and the latter forcing the former to play Russian Roulette. --- In other words making the aggressors into the victims. Can you imagine the howls and protests that would emerge from the Jewish community and by the Hollywood Jewish film moguls etc.? Now the Asians can be portrayed this way because "they are not human. They're gooks and therefore not valuable."


holy crap man deer hunter was an amazing movie about the horrors of war. sort of like all quiet on the western front. it wasnt depicting war as a great magnificent heroic thing like the patriot or any of that shit from mel gibson. and the movie wasn't trying to depict the vietnamese people as horrible or anything - just that war in itself is horrible. how little we don't respect human life - or we think that life is a game that can be manipulated and played with and so on. i mean didn't you catch onto that? the fact that in the pow camps the guards were playing with the lives of the prisoners - and how it's ironic that that's what the us military was doing that also?


How many will want to join the military because they see Deer Hunter etc.?

oh yeah because i really want to go to a pow camp and play some russian roulette. sounds like a good time! :thumbdown:

[renzo_novatore]

What's missing from the discussion is the historical context of the The Deer Hunter. The Deer Hunter (and Apocalypse Now!) appeared when the US was still maintianing an embargo against Vietnam, refusing to provide humanitarian aid, make reperations, share medical information about the effects of agent orange, provide maps identifying the location of land mines that were still killing and maiming people, and punishing US NGOs that tried to provide assistance to Vietnam as well as other countries in the region that wanted to trade with Vietnam. The movie played in the USA in this particular anti-Vietnam, anti-peace movement context.

The Deer Hunter also gave rise to folklore about Russian roulette forced on US POWs, and certain right-wing politicians like Senator Jeremiah Denton (himself a POW) cited the atrocities against POWS depicted in The Deer Hunter as reasons for continuing to isolate Vietnam. Rightly or wrongly The Deer Hunter was seen as pro-war and anti-reconciliation. It was also around this time that the "peace activists spitting in Vietnam veterans' faces" folklore made the rounds in the media. In other words, it was a period of cultural reaction brought on by the defeat of US imperialism in the recent war, and The Deer Hunter played into that.

The same can't be said of Apocalypse Now! however inaccurate its portrayal of the war; it was never spun as a pro-war movie. But Apocalypse Now! also shares in common with The Deer Hunter the notion that the USA was the main victim of the war and not the Vietnamese.


Ok i didn't read all that. that does make more sense. but i still maintain my interpretation of the movie as being anti-war - while i can definitely see how it could be twisted and turned to have a reactionary interpretation.

[RED DAVE]

I think a crucial moment in US movies about Vietnam was in "Good Morning Vietnam," with Robin Williams. Most of it is a funny, bizarre, liberal critique of the war, but at the very end, the Williams character, Adrian Cronauer, confronts his Vietnamese girlfriend's brother, Tuan, who is a member of the NLF.


Cronauer: You were my friend. I trusted you. You hear me?

Tuan: You naive man, "Cronow." You take a stupid side. Now you have to go. It's better off.

Cronauer: That's not the fucking point! Understand me? I fought to get you into that bar,and then you blow the fuckin' place up.

Cronauer: Listen. I gave you my friendship and my trust...and now they tell me that
my best friend is the goddam enemy!

Tuan: Enemy? What is enemy? You killing my own people so many miles from your home.

Tuan: We not the enemy. You the enemy!

Cronauer: You used me to kill two people. Two people died in that fuckin' bar.

Tuan: Big fucking deal. My mother is dead. And my older brother,
who be 17 years old, he dead. Shot by Americans. My neighbor, dead. His wife, dead.

Tuan: Why? Because we're not human to them. We're only little Vietnamese.(slightly edited)

http://www.script-o-rama.com/movie_scripts/g/good-morning-vietnam-script-transcript.html

RED DAVE

[x359594]

...i still maintain my interpretation of the movie as being anti-war - while i can definitely see how it could be twisted and turned to have a reactionary interpretation.

Your interpretation is a minority one comrade. To paraphrase an old carpenter, "By their fruits ye shall know them, not by their disclaimers."

Given sufficient time The Deer Hunter will be judged on its own merits, but for those of us of the Vietnam Generation, it along with virtually all other Hollywood movies about the war are fraught with contradictions. Red Dave nailed it with his post on Good Morning Vietnam.