What is the opinion of the Left on the EU?

[06hurdwp]

My opinion is that the EU should become a single nation. And that the EU should accept as many countries as possible into it.

What is your opinion? I am very curious to know because I haven't seen anyone talk about it here yet and it's a personal interest of mine :)

[Cork Socialist]

Absoloutly not in its current form, It is pushing a neo-liberal agenda. I would not support the EU becoming a single nation.
Plus it is impossible in my opinion due to certain economies being a lot stronger. Why would a country like Germany want to pull their economy down by joining in with the Likes of Ireland etc I'm sure they dislike it enough as it is. Also due to peoples sense of Nationality, it won't happen.

[06hurdwp]

Absoloutly not in its current form, It is pushing a neo-liberal agenda. I would not support the EU becoming a single nation.
Plus it is impossible in my opinion due to certain economies being a lot stronger. Why would a country like Germany want to pull their economy down by joining in with the Likes of Ireland etc I'm sure they dislike it enough as it is. Also due to peoples sense of Nationality, it won't happen.

Yes but in terms of 'for the good of mankind', I support it.

It's like saying countries like the USA don't like Communism so it won't happen...

[maskerade]

The EU should be abolished - it pushes an abhorrent neo-liberal agenda that doesn't allow for an alternative to a free market. not to mention that it is an unashamedly imperialist entity; in order for third world countries to receive EU aid they have to have a market economy that European companies can rape and pillage, not to mention the fact that agricultural subsidies in the EU only work to further entrench places like sub-Saharan Africa in desolate poverty.

Also it is a large step further away from any hope of meaningful democracy.

[06hurdwp]

The EU should be abolished - it pushes an abhorrent neo-liberal agenda that doesn't allow for an alternative to a free market. not to mention that it is an unashamedly imperialist entity; in order for third world countries to receive EU aid they have to have a market economy that European companies can rape and pillage, not to mention the fact that agricultural subsidies in the EU only work to further entrench places like sub-Saharan Africa in desolate poverty.

Also it is a large step further away from any hope of meaningful democracy.

In the current, capitalist world, foreign aid destroys the private sector economies of third world countries and heavily restricts economic growth. It is a BAD THING.

[maskerade]

In the current, capitalist world, foreign aid destroys the private sector economies of third world countries and heavily restricts economic growth. It is a BAD THING.

and the alternative is? unless debts are cancelled and Europe gives back reparations for colonialism many states will be dependent on aid and the strings attached to it. Aid itself doesn't have to be bad; for example, a UNICEF program in Kenya distributed money directly to mothers who needed it, and they put it to much better use than the Kenyan government.

For example, 50% of Mozambique's budget is aid. This is then used to build infrastructure, for example, but EU aid can only be 'spent' on EU companies (though this might be decided by individual member states).

The rules of the global trade regime are catered to the West. EU aid and the strings attached is bad, I can agree on that as it was my point. However, in Sub-Saharan Africa the private sector economies barely exist, most of the population reside in an informal economy almost completely separate from anything the EU would be involved in.

[the Leftâ„¢]

The EU should be abolished - it pushes an abhorrent neo-liberal agenda that doesn't allow for an alternative to a free market. not to mention that it is an unashamedly imperialist entity; in order for third world countries to receive EU aid they have to have a market economy that European companies can rape and pillage, not to mention the fact that agricultural subsidies in the EU only work to further entrench places like sub-Saharan Africa in desolate poverty.

Also it is a large step further away from any hope of meaningful democracy.


I agree.

[Old Mole]

EU is an undemocratic, neo-liberal institution. And all the EU-sponsored building of a European identity makes me want to puke.

[Sixiang]

My opinion is that the EU should become a single nation. And that the EU should accept as many countries as possible into it.

What is your opinion? I am very curious to know because I haven't seen anyone talk about it here yet and it's a personal interest of mine :)

I think that nations should be abolished worldwide, as does/should any genuine communist.

[Kamos]

The EU belongs where all the other imperialist super-entities of the world today: into the trashcan of history. A unified Europe would be most welcome, just like a unified world, as long as it's revolutionary. Until it's not there is no sense in talking about how countries should be.

[06hurdwp]

I think that nations should be abolished worldwide, as does/should any genuine communist.

The growth of the EU is helping towards the transition to socialism. The EU is already very socialistic in many ways.

[Blake's Baby]

In theory I'm neutral on the idea. It matters not whether the capitalists that misrule me operate from London or Brussels, I really don't care, I'd abolish the UK the EU and all other nations and conglomerates right now if I had a choice.

In practice, in many ways I think it is destructive and harmful, because among many other things it produces a horrible xenophobic backwash - everything 'European' (ie foreign) is bad, so everything from 'my nation' (as opposed to European) is good. Disgusting reactionary nationalistic shit.

Sometimes though, you have to think it's funny because it makes right wingers so angry, and that's a good thing.

[06hurdwp]

However, in Sub-Saharan Africa the private sector economies barely exist, most of the population reside in an informal economy almost completely separate from anything the EU would be involved in.

Exactly. The reason they rely on aid is because they aid they have received has slowed private sector growth to a near-standstill.

Foreign aid is like a snowball, you more you give them, the more their private sector growth is slowed, so the more they need.

I am not against some types of short term foreign aid e.g. providing temporary shelter and food after earthquakes. It is foreign aid for things like infrastructure, giving food, setting up water pumps etc etc that are damaging.

Let's take this as an example. A man from Chad owns a successful water pump company, but suddenly one year Chad has a drought and there is not enough water to go around. They have 2 choices:

a.) Buy many water pumps from the private water pump company, improving the private sector economy, creating employment and giving people more money to spend so that other areas of the private and public economy are improved also.

b.) Get a load of free ones from the EU.

Now, you may turn around and say "They can't afford to buy the water pumps from the private company", but this is because their private sector economies have been strangulated by previous foreign aid. It soon gets out of control and you have a state that relies extremely heavily on foreign aid.

Think about it...

[Spawn of Stalin]

The growth of the EU is helping towards the transition to socialism. The EU is already very socialistic in many ways.

Care to name any of these "ways"?

[06hurdwp]

Care to name any of these "ways"?

EU countries have free healthcare
EU countries have welfare systems
EU countries have free education (some have free university education)
The gap between the rich and the poor in the EU is relatively small when compared to other parts of the world

...just to name a few

[Spawn of Stalin]

And that makes it socialistic because.......?

[Spawn of Stalin]

You know Hong Kong has all of the first three and a degree of the forth, right? That doesn't mean Hong Kong has anything to do with socialism. Socialism is about the relationship between property and people

[Spawn of Stalin]

To answer the topic I support the existence of an EU, but not the EU. A unified Europe is a nice idea but as others have pointed out the only purpose the EU in its current form serves is to further neoliberalism and abolish as much democracy as possible without people noticing

[Ocean Seal]

EU countries have free healthcare
EU countries have welfare systems
EU countries have free education (some have free university education)
The gap between the rich and the poor in the EU is relatively small when compared to other parts of the world

...just to name a few
Social democracy is not socialism. The reason that the EU has all these nice things is based on the fact that they've sacked the majority of the world. These nice things are kindly brought to you by the resources stolen by imperialism. And the EU doesn't make these things possible. It merely allows them to exist while the neoliberal pigs get to keep all the wealth and power. Does the EU encourage the collective ownership of the Means of production? No. Its just an entity to enforce the collective will of the imperialist capitalist classes of Europe.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

EU countries have free healthcare
EU countries have welfare systems
EU countries have free education (some have free university education)
The gap between the rich and the poor in the EU is relatively small when compared to other parts of the world

...just to name a few

Apart form the fact that these things are not socialism, that is a rewriting of history.

The formation of the European Union and its economic integration has coincided with the deconstruction of the free health care systems and the EU now pushes for a state-subsidised semi-private system, and the education system is facing the same sort of changes, with gradual transition in the direction of tuition fees and privatisation plans (school voucher programs are promoted and have been enacted in several countries).

The EU has forced legislation upon many countries to deregulated and privatise things like electricity markets, railway industry, infrastructure, so on so forth, so that if we take the simplistic and wrong assumption that free health care, education and so on are socialism, the EU program represents a step in the direction away from that. The EU is nothing but a neo-liberal supranational corrupt body of economic and political coöperation between the national bourgeois dominated by the major European nations (Germany, France, etc).

[miltonwasfried...man]

I think that nations should be abolished worldwide, as does/should any genuine communist.

I agree but in order to do that countries would have to first join together and work towards dismantling their borders. Nations will not just disappear arbitrarily, but if they slowly came together as one, the process could begin. Mankind needs to lose its individualistic stance and citizens need to exchange their patriotism for equality before Communism can arise.

[PhoenixAsh]

EU countries have free healthcare
EU countries have welfare systems
EU countries have free education (some have free university education)
The gap between the rich and the poor in the EU is relatively small when compared to other parts of the world

...just to name a few

@free healthcare....

we do? Which ones?

[thefinalmarch]

EU countries have free healthcare
EU countries have welfare systems
EU countries have free education (some have free university education)
The gap between the rich and the poor in the EU is relatively small when compared to other parts of the world

...just to name a few
I hope you realise that in any "socialistic country", there wouldn't be any rich or any poor. As Spawn of Stalin said, socialism is about a relation between people and [productive] property. The fact that EU countries exhibit these certain attributes, somehow making them "fairer" or more "just" societies (such is the purely emotive way which you seem to define socialism as), means nothing. Capitalist countries can exhibit these attributes (and these gains have always been the result of the historical struggle of the working class), whilst it is practically certain that a socialist society will, due to the removal of the material conditions keeping free healthcare, free education and welfare a pipe-dream.

[thefinalmarch]

I agree but in order to do that countries would have to first join together and work towards dismantling their borders. Nations will not just disappear arbitrarily, but if they slowly came together as one, the process could begin. Mankind needs to lose its individualistic stance and citizens need to exchange their patriotism for equality before Communism can arise.
I believe that the term nation was used to mean a country/state, and was not referring to internationalism or transnationalism.

[Manic Impressive]

Social democracy is not socialism. The reason that the EU has all these nice things is based on the fact that they've sacked the majority of the world. These nice things are kindly brought to you by the resources stolen by imperialism. And the EU doesn't make these things possible. It merely allows them to exist while the neoliberal pigs get to keep all the wealth and power. Does the EU encourage the collective ownership of the Means of production? No. Its just an entity to enforce the collective will of the imperialist capitalist classes of Europe.
Ah so we are all racists and imperialist if we fight to keep the NHS? Because it's paid for through imperialism? what a ridiculous explanation I mean if that were the case then the US would have the best welfare state in the world. The welfare state is a concession which was fought, won, and paid for by the working class. Now you could say that imperialism has stopped other countries getting a welfare state.
But if we only have it because of imperialism then I guess we better restrict anyone who's been on a protest to oppose the privatisation of the welfare state.:rolleyes:

[Blake's Baby]

No, the UK's welfare state was a plan put forward by the Conservatives in the 1920s because it meant that wages could be lowered, because workers would no longer have to pay medical insurance themselves. As originally envisioned, it was a plan to make capital more profitable by making healthcare cheaper. It was taken up by Labour as a sop to help quell social discontent.

[Rowan Duffy]

Absoloutly not in its current form, It is pushing a neo-liberal agenda. I would not support the EU becoming a single nation.

Plus it is impossible in my opinion due to certain economies being a lot stronger. Why would a country like Germany want to pull their economy down by joining in with the Likes of Ireland etc I'm sure they dislike it enough as it is. Also due to peoples sense of Nationality, it won't happen.

I don't actually understand this qualm. Every individual state in the EU is pushing a neo-liberal agenda as well.

The left seems perfectly fine making demands of their local nation-states. Why are we not able to make demands of the EU?

From a revolutionary perspective, the viability of socialism is only possible on a large scale. That will mean dissolving the current national borders and looking to the largest regional aspirations possible.

A place like Ireland can't realistically expect to have anything approaching socialism - in fact the consequences of attacking capital in Ireland alone would probably be catastrophic unless it was quickly joined by others. That seems unlikely to happen unless tighter integration of the movements in the EU occurs. The most likely way that tighter integration of movements in the EU will occur, is if we focus on making demands on the EU.

Personally, I think the retreat to national politics is a combination of our weakness and a lack of strategic vision. It plays in to the hands of both the international capitalists - who can much more easily deal with localised revolt, and to the right-wing nationalists who would like to throw the wrench into any anti-capitalists approach.

You are right that EU integration is stymied by nationalism and the ability of the stronger economies to prey on the weaker economies. That will not disappear with a disintegration of the EU. The ideology for a stronger cooperation in Europe does not currently exist as a viable force. However, that doesn't mean that it shouldn't exist.

It should exist and it should be communist.

[Forward Union]

I've written a fair bit about the EU, and the effects of its integration process.

Now, firstly, there are some benefits that come with any form of integration, reduced conflict, ability to travel freely. I mean my girlfriend is German, so in a personal capacity, the EU makes my life slightly easier.

However, the EU is not the embodiment of "European integration" its a particular and very real thing.

The EUs various economic reforms have all been toward privatisation. For example, it wanted to integrate all of Europes postal services, in the late 90s, so they ran in exactly the same way (sounds like a nice idea) but lets look at the facts. This meant large scale privatisation, sackings, and closures. It also meant reduced pay and precarious new contracts for postal workers. In the UK, an island, it meant that it had to pay more, as it does not have post travelling through it, but only ships it to France.

Western leaders (and this is on record) were really happy to bring Eastern European countries in because they knew the influx of cheap labour could be used to undercut western workers wages which they considered to be too high.

They want to bring in legislation which bans unions from striking against foreign national corporations on "discrimination" basis.

So the EU acts a lot like NAFTA on the other side of the pond, and must be opposed by Socialists.