The Big Three

[06hurdwp]

I am fairly new to Communism, but I am already very strong in my beliefs - I love debating people about it.

BUT, I often come up against the same three points, which I call 'The Big Three' ;)

They are:

- Why would someone want to become a doctor when they could just be a garbage man and earn the same money?

- There is no motive for people to work hard.

- People are naturally greedy so they will always want more that what they need.

I need some solid answers here because these three keep coming up and I can only come up with weak comebacks as I don't know what to say to these.

Thanks,
Will

[SacRedMan]

Sorry but these arguments are already been explained.

[StoneFrog]

Might not be good arguments but here:

1st:
-Why do doctors, become doctors? There are other jobs which pay better, while doing less work. Speak to a doctor and see why they became one. There will always be people wanting to help others, its how the whole role of a doctor came about. If doctors only did it for money, then people would of never developed medicine and other treatments.

2nd
-Well in a communist world, you wouldn't have to work long days since it would cut the over production of goods. Leaving more leasure time, leaving the people with better morale and good mental health. Happy workers, won't mind work hard. Plus if people didn't do a good job its only them which will suffer in the end; too lazy to grow food, you starve, too lazy to pave the roads, you run into them. Given the means to improve ones environment they will do it. Its the same reason why people go to work now, we have a need, that need doesn't go away but how we fill it is different.

3rd:
-If we are all greedy then the only way to live successfully is communism, if we are all greedy we will all keep each other in check. If we keep the capitalism system there is no check on our greed, since we praise it as fundamental building blocks of society. (i think there is a really good che quote which i forgot which explains it better, maybe someone will post it)

[StoneFrog]

Sorry but these arguments are already been explained.

Your not very nice, he came here with questions, doesn't matter if they've been done before. ITS LEARNING.

[06hurdwp]

Sorry but these arguments are already been explained.

Thanks for the extremely useful post :)

[Тачанка]

So what? I'll gladly try to answer them again. Don't mind the baby Stalins.


Why would someone want to become a doctor when they could just be a garbage man and earn the same money?

Society needs doctors as much as garbage men. Both are very much important for a high living standard for all, therefore society trains its own doctors, by paying for their training and giving them all help that is needed. It's not like in Capitalism where one has to pay a shitload of money to become a doctor, or, on the other hand, waste 9 years of possibly earning a wage.

In fact, not in socialism nor in communism do people earn the same wage. This is a complete strawman and should be combated if used by people.
Socialism, the lower stage of communism, is about contribution. If you work hard, you also get more of the national product. This is used to promote a higher productivity and therefore a higher living standard, and possible grounds for a future society where there is no more money and everyone is "paid" what they need to live, and they can always take as much as they want because there is an abundance of goods. Now, some say "what keeps people from taking too much then?!" Well, just their own brain. Like today, noone would think of buying 2 train tickets and then leave a seat unoccupied. Or take more food than one could eat.

Second, in communism there will be a new human mind. Work will be enjoyable, and it'd also be possible, due to a high education for everyone, to switch to another kind of labour if one wants to, for example, if you're a garbagemen at the age of 30, what keeps you from taking the opportunity to be trained as a doctor? Goods to live exist in abundance, there can be others to take one's spot as a garbageman, if only for a time. It's not like in Capitalism where one has to worry about one's job.


- There is no motive for people to work hard.

Of course there is, higher productivity leads to a higher living standard of all.

In socialism, the incentive to work is a higher share of the national product, so yes, it's one of the few things that are inherent to socialism and are somewhat capitalist, since socialism is born out of capitalism's womb and carries some of its sicknesses with itself.

In communism, one's incentive is just the good of all. New circumstances create new humans, that is something that is completely new to animals, that their behavior is formed(and in a fast way, not based on random genetic selection) by their environment and education. (Some call this "socialization")

Also, working time will be reduced by a lot. Today, most work for the profit of others and, in conclusion, for useless consumer goods (Caviar comes into mind... low amount of food, doesn't really taste good (not 1000 times better than other things) yet labour is wasted on its production.
The reduced labour time makes it more enjoyable, and a part of one's life.


- People are naturally greedy so they will always want more that what they need.

There is no proof of a kind of human nature that is inherent to all humans at all times. And if it were true, why then, are there communists? Or generally charity organizations? Why do people give homeless people money?
If one then says that it makes them feel good, then counter with "Yes. That is why we want to overthrow the government and make the workers (us, it's stupid to differentiate oneself from the working-class) rule for themselves - to get more of the national product and live a better life. We are greedy."

By the way, the ones who work the most, get the least! Ever heard of sweatshop labour? Thousands of women and children in factories in the third world for a puny 42 cent an hour(Factories on the Philipines pay this much per hour) working their asses off just for a tiny bit of money.

Then there are the rich people! They don't work a bit, yet get the most of the wealth on this planet!

Hope this helps.

[Тачанка]

I think I didn't answer to the third point clear enough, let me try again


- People are naturally greedy so they will always want more that what they need. People are formed by the environment they live in. This is what makes us humane.
If it weren't true, then parents teaching their children "correct" behavior would be completely useless. But no, it is not, as learning what is right and what is not is part of one's life.

There is no proof for human nature. It goes against all logic, the human mind has developed over the past thousands of years, it went through many changes, always according to the social environment they lived in (Or, according to Marx, mostly to the level of development of the forces of production, but I can't argue about this very well)

If people in Capitalism take more than they need, then it is so because of the high level of consumer propaganda that the people are fed on TV, radio, in public life, everywhere - creating artifical demand (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_demand). For example, breast surgery, due to the idea of perfect beauty the media spreads.

[SacRedMan]

Your not very nice, he came here with questions, doesn't matter if they've been done before. ITS LEARNING.

Uh... I just said that these arguments are already been explained. So what I ment was that he should do some searching before posting.


Thanks for the extremely useful post

I don't like that sarcasm.

[Тачанка]

Uh... I just said that these arguments are already been explained. So what I ment was that he should do some searching before posting.



At the last marxist-leninist demonstration... a woman walked up to SacRedMan.

Hello, sir. Please, would you be so kindly and explain to me why you have Stalin on your banner, and the phrase "workers of the world, unite!", what does it mean?

Once he had listened to the woman, SacRedMan, in all his manlyness, with a swollen chest, says

Sorry but these arguments are already been explained!

[SacRedMan]

At the last marxist-leninist demonstration... a woman walked up to SacRedMan.

Hello, sir. Please, would you be so kindly and explain to me why you have Stalin on your banner, and the phrase "workers of the world, unite!", what does it mean?

Once he had listened to the woman, SacRedMan, in all his manlyness, with a swollen chest, says

Sorry but these arguments are already been explained!


Oh great now everyone is comming to troll on me just because I said that the arguments he struggle with are already been explained in this... ah never mind.

Oh and sorry if I was a jerk now!

[06hurdwp]

I don't like that sarcasm.

I don't like your unwillingness to help others.


Oh and sorry if I was a jerk now!

Apology accepted.

[The Idler]

I working on incorporating the High School Commies guide to rebuttals of common criticism into a sticky.

[tbasherizer]

It's interesting to read the learning section to see how other members answer new peoples' questions. It can reveal more about people's philosophies than reading their longest post in Philosophy. Here are my answers

1- Socialism/Communism (S/C) isn't about equality. Marx himself shot this idea down, saying that generally equal distribution of resources would be an indirect consequence of the socialist state. S/C is about control of the means of production. In a hypothetical socialist society, the control of the means of production (heavy industry, food and luxury good production and distribution) would be either under the control of a highly responsive, democratic, and open state or a highly coordinated group of autonomous cooperatives (or some other way that workers can control the means of production- insert your favourite mechanism here). At this point, it's up to the people who make up the proletarian dictatorship (again, replace with whatever mechanism you like best) to determine how the wealth they produce is distributed. Wealth won't necessarily be distributed equally. In the case that it is, other members' answers have been beautiful in addressing any concerns. The point is that S/C doesn't necessarily imply equality of pay. During the socialist mode of production, a person's occupation will be disconnected from their level of economic power over others.

2- During the socialist mode of production, the pressure of starvation or disenfrachisement that exits under the capitalist mode of prodution will be removed. Seeing as the objective material conditions are such that a socialist society has been achieved, individuals will be able to work as hard as they like at the career of their choice. Some of the best work known to mankind has been achieved by people free of the pressures of wage labour. Take for example Charles Darwin, the greatest naturalist of the nineteenth century. He was born into the gentry and therefore could become educated for education's sake. It was this freedom that enabled him to develop the idea of evolution via natural selection, the most profound scientific discovery in the field of biology up to that point. If this same freedom applied to more or less everyone, the quality of work performed would be extraordinary. In other words, it's hard to do good work when you're constantly trying to keep your life together.

3- People are self-interested. Communists don't deny this*. I personally am a communist so that I can take part in and a small amount of credit for the great emancipation represented by the socialist revolution**. S/C is merely a re-arrangement of the systems established to channel self-interest. It represents, in other words, a way for every individual to achieve the greatest portion of what their greediness strives for. Democratic control of the means of prodution ensures that the greatest amount of people can achieve self-actualization. Of cours, there is the less pie-in-the-sky problem that particularly greedy inividuals might try to take resources that weren't intended for them. The solution to this already exists under the capitalist mode of production: laws and law enforcement. The difference between the laws of a socialist society and those of a capitalist society is that they are determined by a truly democratic system and under more rational conditions.

You might disagree or, in the event of my being perfectly right, you might find it difficult to remember this piece of divine revelation for an argument. I'm just putting it out there for consideration.

ENDNOTES:

*Of course, the ways they make manifest their self-interest depend on their material conditions, as per historical materialism and the usual argument against peoples' "inherent greediness"

**This sounds selfish- more of my motivation for being a communist comes from the desire for the privilege of seeing a socialist society develop. It would also help my ego a bit if I was involved with it.

[Black Sheep]

- People are naturally greedy so they will always want more that what they need.I made a video just for that. :)

qBOfzQDzf9g

You can also watch the 1st part of Zeitgeist : Moving forward (zeitgeist 3) , that's entitled 'human nature' and completely DESTROYS that argument.
I mean total carnage.

[Imposter Marxist]

Тачанка, I know you're a trot, but try not to bring sectarian comments into every thread? (Get it? :laugh:)

Yes, Sac should have explained what he meant more, but thats no reason to jump on the trolling trolly

[x371322]

If my doctor only became a doctor for the money, then I'm finding a new doctor.

[Rusty Shackleford]

three cheers for black sheep! very good video.

[miltonwasfried...man]

I am fairly new to Communism, but I am already very strong in my beliefs - I love debating people about it.

BUT, I often come up against the same three points, which I call 'The Big Three' ;)

They are:

- Why would someone want to become a doctor when they could just be a garbage man and earn the same money?

- There is no motive for people to work hard.

- People are naturally greedy so they will always want more that what they need.

I need some solid answers here because these three keep coming up and I can only come up with weak comebacks as I don't know what to say to these.

Thanks,
Will

If your main incentive to become a doctor was money, you'd be a terrible fucking doctor. Some do for sure, but many honestly become doctors to help the sick and dying. Doctors without borders for example has no monetary reward, but people still do it for the better good. Che Guevara was a doctor before and during his revolutionary years and he certainly wasn't inspired by money.

Einstein, Gandhi, Martin Luther, Frederick Banting, etc all worked very hard their whole lives. Not for money but the betterment of mankind and science. Volunteers around the world are extremely dedicated to their causes and have receive no monetary compensation. Yes society has convinced people that money is the only thing of value, but this is ridiculous. Are we so shallow we can not imagine living for something more than a few dollars?

Lastly, humans are not "naturally" greedy or inherently corrupt. Society creates people and a society that values greed and individualism will produce likeminded citizens. No shit people feel that they want more than they need when society and corporations have been bombarding them with advertisements since day one. Capitalism creates capitalists which in turn promote, you guessed it, capitalism. It is high time we broke this cycle and starting working not for money or material goods but for equality and love for all.

[tachosomoza]

If you want to be wealthy quickly in a capitalist society, you go into business or finance. You can do an MBA in 3 years and get a Wall Street job (well, you could in the '90s), doing nothing but shuffling numbers and capital from one country to another, and make $140,000 base plus bonus. Doctors go to school for 8 years at the least, more for specialties such as neurosurgery, AND have to do a long assed internship and residency. Most don't do that shit for the money.

[Decolonize The Left]

three cheers for black sheep! very good video.

Only two cheers from me. It was indeed a very good video for it's purpose, but the song in the background was so horrible that I had to stop watching after 30 seconds. So only two cheers!

- August

[Q]

I'm not going to repeat others, but for the "human nature" argument I want to point out that it is also historically flawed. Capitalism has only existed for the last few centuries. Class society only dates back about 10 000 years. Human existence - that is, our specific species, Homo Sapiens - dates back to about 100 000 years. There is a large body of evidense that during about 90% of our existence we lived in a classless society. Marxists refer to this age as "primitive communism". In fact, the Radical Anthropology Group (http://www.radicalanthropologygroup.org/new/RAG.html), among others, is defending the idea that human existence itself is actually due to the overthrow of the alpha-male system that is seen in other primates, like gorillas. In other words, historically speaking, humanity is a revolutionary species that has lived in a communist social order most of its existence.

Let those silly capitalists answer that!

[Stalin Ate My Homework]

In response to your first question people become doctors to help others, it is a vocational occupation borne out of a desire to help people rather than make money.
In response to your second question the motivation to work hard is that the welfare of oneself is dependant on the welfare of the group which is what all work in a communist society is aimed at. The difference between this and a capitalist society is that hard work benefits all not just yourself and at the expense of others.
To answer your third question you have to ask what people's greed is geared toward,that is, the accumulation of capital. As Communism is a Stateless, Classless and Moneyless Society there will be nothing to arouse greed meaning it is an irrelevant emotion.

Hope this helps! :)