Israel/Palestine

[06hurdwp]

What is the general view of a Marxist on the situation in Israel/Palestine? Are they a supporter of Palestine or Israel?

[06hurdwp]

I personally support Israel, I have come to that conclusion through my own research. But I have heard that many marxists support Palestine which concerns me a little, am I missing something here?

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Most Marxists reject absolute theological or nationalist claims over territory on the ground that they are ideological constructs. So for most Marxists, this isn't a zero sum game where you have to chose between the Israeli nationalist project or the Palestinian one. However, most Socialist organizations out there view the Israeli government of abusing the sovereign rights of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza. Most also disapprove of the handling of Palestinian refugees who lost their home in 1948 and have never been able to move home. This means many Marxists support either a fair two-state solution or a fair one-state solution which would recognize the rights and duties of Jews, Muslims, Druze and Christians alike.


Anyway, I don't know why the left-wing sympathy for Palestinians should be concerning. Unlike Hamas's ideology, Communism does not utilize a theological or antisemitic discourse. For instance, whereas Hamas actually thinks the protocols of zion are real, no serious communist org would ever take that piece of trash propaganda seriously. So Communist sympathy for the Palestinians is based in historical fact and an analysis of the practical conditions of both Palestinians and Israelis, opposed to other organizations whose opposition to Israel is frequently based on propaganda and racism.

What kind of "independent research" have you been doing? What on earth makes you sympathetic with the Israeli government against the Palestinians?

[06hurdwp]

Most Marxists reject absolute theological or nationalist claims over territory on the ground that they are ideological constructs. So for most Marxists, this isn't a zero sum game where you have to chose between the Israeli nationalist project or the Palestinian one. However, most Socialist organizations out there view the Israeli government of abusing the sovereign rights of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza. Most also disapprove of the handling of Palestinian refugees who lost their home in 1948 and have never been able to move home. This means many Marxists support either a fair two-state solution or a fair one-state solution which would recognize the rights and duties of Jews, Muslims, Druze and Christians alike.


Anyway, I don't know why the left-wing sympathy for Palestinians should be concerning. Unlike Hamas's ideology, Communism does not utilize a theological or antisemitic discourse. For instance, whereas Hamas actually thinks the protocols of zion are real, no serious communist org would ever take that piece of trash propaganda seriously. So Communist sympathy for the Palestinians is based in historical fact and an analysis of the practical conditions of both Palestinians and Israelis, opposed to other organizations whose opposition to Israel is frequently based on propaganda and racism.

What kind of "independent research" have you been doing? What on earth makes you sympathetic with the Israeli government against the Palestinians?

I agree with alot of what you have said, I support an Israel with equal rights for everyone, I am not sympathetic for the Israeli government, I am just not sympathetic for the 'Palestinians' either.

At the end of the day, we are living in a divided planet, there is nothing we can do about that for now. The jews are opressed/discriminated in almost every country they have been in, in the current world, they need a home. Historically, Palestine is Jewish land, and Jews have lived there for a very long time.

The 'Palestinians' have no history, because the concept of the inhabitants of that land being 'Palestinian' was created in opposition to the formation of Israel, the truth is that the 'Palestinians' are in fact migrants from the surrounding areas (Syria, Jordan, Egypt, other parts of the middle east).

Please type this into youtube "Dave Hunt - Israel, Islam & Armageddon {God, Jesus, Bible, Prophecy, Endtime, Apocalypse, Nwo)" and watch the video, all of it, the truth is contained in there. But please ignore the religious mumbo-jumbo.

[06hurdwp]

But please don't misunderstand me, I greatly support equality to everyone, and the Israeli government is doing a very very bad job and is a disgrace to Israel.

But Israel DOES have the right to exist, in the location where it does.

[~Spectre]

But Israel DOES have the right to exist, in the location where it does.

Says who?

[Die Rote Fahne]

It's difficult to answer. I support neither nation. Both have reactionary governments. I also don't support the notion that a nation has a "right to exist".

However, I do support the establishment of a Palestinian state, preferably a single binational state combined with Israel, or to the very least the end of oppression and blockade and punishment on the Palestinian people.

Some people will criticize me for not agreeing with Luxemburg, but I don't see how I disagree. I don't see it as a struggle for "National Liberation" as such. It is occupied by an army, not annexed, and not originally a part of "Israel" as such. It isn't a situation like Poland, or Quebec today. I see Palestine as trying to not so much tryign to establish a separate state, but for their separate state to be recognized and not under occupation.

Maybe I am wrong. I'm giving the National Question a read at the moment, I'll come back to you.

[Ocean Seal]

It's difficult to answer. I support neither nation. Both have reactionary governments. I also don't support the notion that a nation has a "right to exist".

At that moment that notion is irrelevant. We understand internationalism, but it isn't exactly happening as of this moment. The reasonable solution is to demand the establishment of a Palestinian state and the end of Israeli aggression and oppression which you said later in your post. Internationalism cannot be seen as a principle regarding the question of Israel.




However, I do support the establishment of a Palestinian state, preferably a single binational state combined with Israel, or to the very least the end of oppression and blockade and punishment on the Palestinian people.

Some people will criticize me for not agreeing with Luxemburg, but I don't see how I disagree. I don't see it as a struggle for "National Liberation" as such. It is occupied by an army, not annexed, and not originally a part of "Israel" as such. It isn't a situation like Poland, or Quebec today. I see Palestine as trying to not so much tryign to establish a separate state, but for their separate state to be recognized and not under occupation.

Maybe I am wrong. I'm giving the National Question a read at the moment, I'll come back to you.

The truth is that we have to end the occupation. And to end the occupation we have to support Palestine. We can't look at Palestine and Israel and say, well they're both reactionary, so we support neither. Supporting Palestine is supporting a very sharp drop in oppression however reactionary it be. Would you say that Iran has it better than Palestine? Iran is reactionary, bourgeois, and so on, but I would say that the people of Iran necessarily have it better than the people of Palestine. So for the case of pragmatism, can't we just think about the Palestinian people and what goes to their benefit?



But please don't misunderstand me, I greatly support equality to everyone, and the Israeli government is doing a very very bad job and is a disgrace to Israel.

But Israel DOES have the right to exist, in the location where it does.
No, it doesn't.



I agree with alot of what you have said, I support an Israel with equal rights for everyone, I am not sympathetic for the Israeli government, I am just not sympathetic for the 'Palestinians' either.

The fact that you put Palestinians in quotes makes you sound like you are mocking their plight. As if this oppression wasn't happening. And the notion that you support Israel with equal rights for everyone is like saying I support capitalism with equal rights for everyone.




At the end of the day, we are living in a divided planet, there is nothing we can do about that for now. The jews are opressed/discriminated in almost every country they have been in, in the current world, they need a home.
Discriminated against yes, but so are many other racial minorities. And oppressed because they are Jews? That is news to me. Any evidence of this systematic oppression in almost every country.



Historically, Palestine is Jewish land, and Jews have lived there for a very long time.

You mean in 1947 the Jews lived in Palestine and occupied all the territory that they do today. People A live in Country A. People A move to Country B. People B move to country A. 2,000 years later the descendants of People A move back into Country A and ethnically cleanse the land of People B.
AM I THE ONLY ONE WHO SEE'S SOMETHING WRONG HERE?



The 'Palestinians' have no history, because the concept of the inhabitants of that land being 'Palestinian' was created in opposition to the formation of Israel, the truth is that the 'Palestinians' are in fact migrants from the surrounding areas (Syria, Jordan, Egypt, other parts of the middle east).

Ahh my favorite bullshit point. Hmmm, interesting. To me it doesn't matter what they're called or if they're an ethnicity. Because as far as I am concerned your ethnicity doesn't entitle you to control a nation and I'm pretty sure that the people who propose dividing up nations according to ethnicity haven't been big on human rights *ahem* Hitler *ahem*. What did happen was that Israel came in and ethnically cleansed Palestine. Now whether you want to call the displaced people Palestinians or Other Arabs From The Same General Area they still happen to be people.

I would just like to take a hypothetical point in saying that I am a New Yorker. If Canada came in and invaded the US and attempted to displace the population of New York, wouldn't it be right to defend our homes? Now of course the Canadian government could state that there are no such things as New Yorkers merely Other American From The Same General Area but however you choose to spin it, it still really fucking sucks that I lost my home. But of course Canadians claim that their ancestors from 3,000 years ago owned this land and since there are no such thing as New Yorkers technically; we're out of luck.



Please type this into youtube "Dave Hunt - Israel, Islam & Armageddon {God, Jesus, Bible, Prophecy, Endtime, Apocalypse, Nwo)" and watch the video, all of it, the truth is contained in there.

Garsh wasn't that supposed to come a couple days ago?
Also

http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2010/10/14/4c6a274b-5324-4b3b-a5bc-57e094abe35b.jpg

[PhoenixAsh]

The 'Palestinians' have no history, because the concept of the inhabitants of that land being 'Palestinian' was created in opposition to the formation of Israel, the truth is that the 'Palestinians' are in fact migrants from the surrounding areas (Syria, Jordan, Egypt, other parts of the middle east).

Please type this into youtube "Dave Hunt - Israel, Islam & Armageddon {God, Jesus, Bible, Prophecy, Endtime, Apocalypse, Nwo)" and watch the video, all of it, the truth is contained in there. But please ignore the religious mumbo-jumbo.


Seriously? Dave Hunt? :confused::blink:

Actually you are wrong.

Palestinians have always lived in that area. In fact they were the fast majority of the inhabitants...have been for millenia. The increased Jewish immigration in the 20's, 30's and 40's as a result of Zionism and the promise of a national home by the Brittish resulted in a balance shift in poulation. In fact 90% of the Jews in Palestine in 1948 had not lived nor had ancestors for hundreds of generations in that region.

In 1948 30% of the population was Jewish. The land was carved up and they got about 60-70% of the land. Most of the virtile regions and it basically devided the left over in two almost unconnected parts.

Now...most religious people will point back to Judea and the Israelites. Both civilisations were established in the region. However...they had established themselves by conquering the region and moving in the territory of other tribes. In fact...historically speaking they have less claim to a sovereign nation than Palestinains much less a nation based solely on Jewish supremacy.

The state of Israel was founded by taking the livelyhood from Palestinians and continues to deny that livelyhood. What is more it is waging an effective war of attrition on the Palestinians inside of Israel...by implementing policy that effectively decreses Palestinian property in Israel.

Its continued policy of settlements outside the Israeli borders and the continued occupation and violation of alll international law and treaties should be a huge sign that supporting the state of Israel is supporting Zionist-Fascism.

There can only be one acceptable solution and that is a secular state where all groups can live together.

A fact the Arabs proposed in 1947 but which was rejected by the Zionists....simply because they wanted their own state. The reason why they want their own state is also why they treat Palestinians as secundary people...they want to have dominion over their own territory.

Now..don't get me wrong. This is not a rant against Judaism or Jews. Far from it. Its against Zionism and teh Israeli state that is a result of that ideology.

[Comrade_Oscar]

Look at how religion has divided humanity, should Israel exist? Yes they do have the right, but they don't have the right to bomb and kill Palestinians. I am however leaning more towards the Palestinians.

[Red Rebel]

I strongly suggest reading Richard Becker's Palestine, Israel and the U.S. Empire. It is an easy to read activist approach to Palestine.

Also most leftists don't have a problem with Israel being a state. We have a problem with Zionism (and for the record Israeli =/= Jewish =/= Zionist).

[Kamos]

Israel doesn't have a right to exist as it does. The state is based on religion - that's like saying we should have the Papal State back. A state in that region should encompass both Israel and Palestine, giving equal rights to Jews and Arabs, and would naturally be secular.

I also think anyone who denies the existence of Palestinians is not worth arguing with. Obviously there was no state of Palestine thanks to other wonderful countries like the Ottoman Empire and the United Kingdom. But wouldn't that mean that Jews don't exist either?

[RedSunRising]

Israel doesn't have a right to exist as it does. The state is based on religion - that's like saying we should have the Papal State back. A state in that region should encompass both Israel and Palestine, giving equal rights to Jews and Arabs, and would naturally be secular.


More ethnic nationalism, Zionists persecute religious jews remember and they havent been on friendly terms since the beginning of the zionist movement, though sadly a lot of the oppressed sephardic jews in Israel/Occupied Palestine now have become some of the most militant supporters of zionism, which is strange because they are treated nearly as badly as the Palestinians.

[Kamos]

Zionists persecute religious jews remember

No, I don't. Care to remind me? I do know that Zionists and religious Jews do have conflicts at times but it seems to me that the Israeli state often uses religion to get stuff done. Would probably be more accurate to say that it's based on ethnic nationalism but heavily influenced by religion - which is still not better.

[06hurdwp]

Obvious Troll is obvious


You are very judgemental. And also wrong. :)

[06hurdwp]

BTW, I am not a supporter of zionists or a hater of palestinians, I just don't feel any sympathy for them because it is their choice to live outside of Israel and constantly attack it, they can choose to live in Israel where they will have equal rights, but they choose not to because they are obsessed with their own nationalism.

[Ocean Seal]

BTW, I am not a supporter of zionists or a hater of palestinians, I just don't feel any sympathy for them because it is their choice to live outside of Israel and constantly attack it,



Imperialist rhetoric right here.

This is the same as the approach that Americans have. I don't feel any sympathy for the Afghanis because they chose to do 9/11. Yes, I'm sure that all the children that Israel has massacred chose to attack Israel. The attacks happen for a reason, because Palestine is occupied.



they can choose to live in Israel where they will have equal rights, but they choose not to because they are obsessed with their own nationalism.
Oh come the fuck on. You really think that they can chose to live in Israel and simply don't? That the millions of exiled Palestinians chose to live in refugee camps and that the 1.4 million Palestinians chose to live on the Gaza strip?

You are an imperialist who is justifying murder. Do you support the war in Afghanistan, or Iraq?