Canada's "democracy"

[Torie]

For those of you who are unaware, in Canada we recently had an election where the Conservative party won a majority. I'm completely outraged by the ridiculousness of the first-past-the-post system we use and the fact that it got us a majority party who has the support of a minority...and it just had to be the Conservatives. It's very saddening to think we have a man in power who voted against gay marriage in the past and, not long ago, tried to reopen the debate. This "democracy" gives the people absolutely NO power and I'm afraid for what might happen in the next four years until the next election. I'm tired of Canadians thinking we have a fair say in what happens to our country and to us as individuals. I don't know how anyone can call this a democracy.

[Rusty Shackleford]

it is what is called a bourgeois democracy, like the US.

it doesnt give the people power, it gives the business leaders, financiers, industrialists, and militarists the power.

[thesadmafioso]

It would appear that you are operating under the presumption that your electoral system is designed to actually allow the people a means through which to convey their wills, when in reality such is not the case. The modern democratic process in nations like the US or Canada more or less exists to allow the masses to channel political disillusionment and outrage in the context a nice and broadly harmless election. Then after election time is over, everyone goes back to their lives only to return a few years later to repeat the same process. It is essentially a system designed with the intent of oppressing the lower classes of society by deluding them with a false sense of political empowerment.

This is certainly a regrettable development, but it is one only to be expected from a first world capitalistic democracy.

[miltonwasfried...man]

Tell me about it. I live in 'Harperville' Alberta, and every election my vote will be for nothing with the fptp system. It is asinine to consider this a democracy when 30% of the vote gave the conservatives a majority for the next 4 years, leaving the rest of us to have absolutely no say until then. Proportional representation makes much more sense. At least the NDP became the official opposition, so when the next election rolls around and we have no social programs left people might wake up and vote Harper out.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

Tell me about it. I live in 'Harperville' Alberta, and every election my vote will be for nothing with the fptp system. It is asinine to consider this a democracy when 30% of the vote gave the conservatives a majority for the next 4 years, leaving the rest of us to have absolutely no say until then. Proportional representation makes much more sense. At least the NDP became the official opposition, so when the next election rolls around and we have no social programs left people might wake up and vote Harper out.

FPTP or proportional or that intermediate rubbish like the "alternative vote" really makes no qualitive difference. The same corruption of bourgeois democracy remain and the leadership's class-nature is unchanged and any fundamental change cannot come through electoral politics.

[miltonwasfried...man]

FPTP or proportional or that intermediate rubbish like the "alternative vote" really makes no qualitive difference. The same corruption of bourgeois democracy remain and the leadership's class-nature is unchanged and any fundamental change cannot come through electoral politics.

Democracy has it's faults for sure, but it can and has brought about change for the better. Public pressure and the vote has led to many positive reforms in health care, public education, etc. If the proletariat have means to be properly represented they have a say in the decisions of the country.

[genstrike]

Democracy has it's faults for sure, but it can and has brought about change for the better. Public pressure and the vote has led to many positive reforms in health care, public education, etc. If the proletariat have means to be properly represented they have a say in the decisions of the country.

No, most of these were won by working class organization outside of parliament. Even when Tommy Douglas did win in Saskatchewan, they didn't get started on implementing healthcare until after about 17 years in power. As for public education, I think it is telling that the province with the most accessible PSE system isn't the one which elects the NDP the most, it's the one where there are actual student strikes once in a while and students take to the streets and fuck shit up over a $150 tuition increase.

As for, "if the proletariat have means to be properly represented" - sorry, but our Parliament doesn't work that way. The idea of a "working class party" running in elections is bullshit and has been peddled by social democratic hucksters for at least a century now, and the NDP perfectly epitomizes the failure of electoral politics.

Proportional representation won't fix things either. It will just be the same old bullshit in different proportions.

[Misanthrope]

Elections in republics are just changing the faces. Giving the media "news" and "important issues" to keep the public "informed". It's a dictatorship of the capitalist class. Bourgeois politics are completely irrelevant, the only politics that matter are class politics.

[miltonwasfried...man]

No, most of these were won by working class organization outside of parliament. Even when Tommy Douglas did win in Saskatchewan, they didn't get started on implementing healthcare until after about 17 years in power. As for public education, I think it is telling that the province with the most accessible PSE system isn't the one which elects the NDP the most, it's the one where there are actual student strikes once in a while and students take to the streets and fuck shit up over a $150 tuition increase.

As for, "if the proletariat have means to be properly represented" - sorry, but our Parliament doesn't work that way. The idea of a "working class party" running in elections is bullshit and has been peddled by social democratic hucksters for at least a century now, and the NDP perfectly epitomizes the failure of electoral politics.

Proportional representation won't fix things either. It will just be the same old bullshit in different proportions.

Working class organizations outside parliament have indeed brought about social change but only by pressuring the government to act. Thusly any sort of left leaning government would be more inclined to pass pro working class bills.

With Tommy Douglas, at least he eventually did start implementing some sort of universal health care which is more than a lot of countries can say.

If you look at Canadian tutitions they are dramatically cheaper than the United States. So yes student protest and organizations are a very important reason behind that, the government has the final say over the budget.

The NDP may not be as left leaning as you or I would like but politics by nature is full of compromise and they are trying to appeal to the 'center-left' vote. To say they "epitomize the failure of electoral politics" (when the party up until recently has had little to no say in the government) is over the line in my opinion. The NDP is the only credible left leaning party in Canada and are the reason for our decent healthcare plan despite the fact they have never been elected to a real position of power. So now that they are the official opposition, maybe in the next election they could actually win and we can work towards socialism in Canada. Democracy is a means to an end and proportional representation is a better path to equality.

[genstrike]

Working class organizations outside parliament have indeed brought about social change but only by pressuring the government to act. Thusly any sort of left leaning government would be more inclined to pass pro working class bills.

No, that's not true. Was it through pressuring the government that CUPW won maternal leave? Was it asking Mitch Hepburn nicely that Auto Workers unionized and won decent wages?

Even if your statement were true, most of the Canadian left is putting the cart before the horse - the labour movement is outsourcing nearly all of their political action to the NDP, and so many people on the left focus almost entirely on the NDP and don't do anything to work towards building social movements. Any extraparliamentary working class organizations are reduced to a mere network of lobbyists.


The NDP may not be as left leaning as you or I would like but politics by nature is full of compromise and they are trying to appeal to the 'center-left' vote.

No, they're trying to appeal to bourgeois interests.


To say they "epitomize the failure of electoral politics" (when the party up until recently has had little to no say in the government) is over the line in my opinion.

No, it is not over the line. They have governed in five provinces, and in all five, they have been happy to implement austerity measures. In fact, they even brag about being better at implementing austerity than the other parties! And the closer they get to to achieving power, the more and more right-wing they become.



So now that they are the official opposition, maybe in the next election they could actually win and we can work towards socialism in Canada. Democracy is a means to an end and proportional representation is a better path to equality.

I for one am not waiting for the NDP to get elected to start to work towards socialism. First, the NDP has absolutely zero interest in working towards socialism. I was watching the election coverage before the results came in, and the NDP talking head was saying that the NDP has already reassured Bay Street that they won't change anything drastically, won't interfere with their profits, and won't be "clown-shoes radicals like Bob Rae"

And we're relying on these clowns to work towards socialism?

The NDP has had a majority government in my province for the past 12 years now. Can we start working towards socialism yet? Shit, we can't even get anti-scab legislation, and the NDP actually refused to raise welfare rates (essentially slowly cutting them due to inflation) until things got so bad that the Chamber of Commerce had to call for an increase in welfare rates.

Honestly, I can't believe it's 2011 and people claiming to be radical or revolutionary are still drinking the orange kool-aid.

[Crux]

This interview with Michael Laxer after the founding congress of the Socialist Party of Ontario (http://www.facebook.com/pages/Socialist-Party-of-Ontario/171120622943970) sort of touches on the subject of the NDP:
Mv_FeO45HmA

[JoeySteel]

This new "Socialist Party of Ontario" is a tiny split from the NDP by people who were disillusioned by how far the NDP drifted from social democracy. It aims to be a bit more authentically social democratic where the NDP has gone quite right wing. I know some people who are involved in it and I can't fathom how another social democratic party is going to get us anywhere.

[Crux]

This new "Socialist Party of Ontario" is a tiny split from the NDP by people who were disillusioned by how far the NDP drifted from social democracy. It aims to be a bit more authentically social democratic where the NDP has gone quite right wing. I know some people who are involved in it and I can't fathom how another social democratic party is going to get us anywhere.
The impression I get is rather more autentically socialist and anti-capitalist, a difference I believe. I believe that political organizations of the working class needs to be built. What is your position?

[JoeySteel]

That assumes there is a spectrum of social democracy ranging from more socialist and anti capitalist to less socialist and anti capitalist. I think social democracy is social democracy. I agree with genstrike in this thread as someone who lives in Ontario and has experienced a range of social democratic orgs and types on the Canadian left. I'm now a maoist.

[Crux]

That assumes there is a spectrum of social democracy ranging from more socialist and anti capitalist to less socialist and anti capitalist. I think social democracy is social democracy. I agree with genstrike in this thread as someone who lives in Ontario and has experienced a range of social democratic orgs and types on the Canadian left. I'm now a maoist.
Of course there is a left-right spectrum within social democracy, but these days social democracty have drifted so far right that they no longer hold any working class base. So the question really is, what do you mean by social democracy? If you mean in the modern sense with Blair and Schröder etc I'd be with you certainly, which is why an alternative mass organization needs to be built.

[RedSunRising]

So the question really is, what do you mean by social democracy? If you mean in the modern sense with Blair and Schröder etc I'd be with you certainly, which is why an alternative mass organization needs to be built.

What type of alternative mass organizations? Militarized Communist Parties dedicated to capturing state power through protracted armed struggle or re-runs of the old "mass Labour parties" such as some organizations are trying to do with the ULA for example?

[JoeySteel]

It seems like this socialist party is basically taking positions that used to be common in social democracy, while mainstream social democracy, by effect of being in power, has gone more and more right wing. There is no real difference between the two, however, as both will result in the same thing if elected or even in opposition. They are of the same form and mostly the same content, and the closer they get to managing capitalism the more they will have to toss away "socialist principles" and things like that - irrespective of individuals' feelings. The impetus came from people who have attempted to use the NDP internal bureaucracy to make the party "more socialist", but big surprise, the super undemocratic bureacrat hacks in the NDP did not award them this on a platter. A social democratic party follows the strategy of getting elected to use parliament to (hopefully) pass laws to make things "more socialist." It's based in a misunderstanding of the state. Despite the good intentions of the NDP splitters, even if this project was successful it would not be qualitatively different from any other social democratic grouping. I also have to assure you that the Ontario Socialist Party is I'm sure not a mass organization at this point either. I agree with the need for mass organizations, specifically those that break with social democracy and the state. From what I can tell this is a hare-brained scheme for a duplicate social democracy party in Ontario. Of course only time will tell.

[Crux]

What type of alternative mass organizations? Militarized Communist Parties dedicated to capturing state power through protracted armed struggle or re-runs of the old "mass Labour parties" such as some organizations are trying to do with the ULA for example?
Old social democracy failed, remember? Well, I assume we all now this, but the point is, now that social democracy has passed form being working class organizations with a pro-bourgeois leadership to bourgeois organizations in and of themselfes leaving a vacuum. Now I'd like to be part of building an organization not a re-run of old labour, but with the demise of Old Labour that is an important starting point to take. The basic organization of the working class.

Your "militarized communist party", while it does sound like militarist adventurism not uncommon among maoists, wouldn't be able to grow out of thin air, right?

[Crux]

It seems like this socialist party is basically taking positions that used to be common in social democracy, while mainstream social democracy, by effect of being in power, has gone more and more right wing. There is no real difference between the two, however, as both will result in the same thing if elected or even in opposition. They are of the same form and mostly the same content, and the closer they get to managing capitalism the more they will have to toss away "socialist principles" and things like that - irrespective of individuals' feelings. The impetus came from people who have attempted to use the NDP internal bureaucracy to make the party "more socialist", but big surprise, the super undemocratic bureacrat hacks in the NDP did not award them this on a platter. A social democratic party follows the strategy of getting elected to use parliament to (hopefully) pass laws to make things "more socialist." It's based in a misunderstanding of the state. Despite the good intentions of the NDP splitters, even if this project was successful it would not be qualitatively different from any other social democratic grouping. I also have to assure you that the Ontario Socialist Party is I'm sure not a mass organization at this point either. I agree with the need for mass organizations, specifically those that break with social democracy and the state. From what I can tell this is a hare-brained scheme for a duplicate social democracy party in Ontario. Of course only time will tell.
I see the SPO mainly as a good starting point, and I do think they have an unusual clarity in their program and especially clearly states the limitations of mere electoral struggle.

[RedSunRising]

Old social democracy failed, remember? Well, I assume we all now this, but the point is, now that social democracy has passed form being working class organizations with a pro-bourgeois leadership to bourgeois organizations in and of themselfes leaving a vacuum. Now I'd like to be part of building an organization not a re-run of old labour, but with the demise of Old Labour that is an important starting point to take. The basic organization of the working class.


The Social Democratic parties of western Europe passed into the enemy camp around the time of the first world war and having been getting worse since. The idea of working class organizations with leaderships supporting another class is a bit of a strange one. Electoralism is a perilous tactic at the best of times anyways and with the cynicism that now surrounds elections in so many countries the last thing that revolutionaires should be doing is breathing some credibility back into the old sham.

[JoeySteel]

I see the SPO mainly as a good starting point, and I do think they have an unusual clarity in their program and especially clearly states the limitations of mere electoral struggle.

As I said, only time will tell, but I would prefer to start with something that is correct, not something that is fundamentally misaligned but that is more lucid than others of its type.

EDIT: Canada in general is afflicted by a constant tendency of "creative" types to think that if we only started this or that new group, we could build a movement or something something. I see this as similar. At the same time as the decline of imperialism continues more and more forces are looking towards a militarized communist party as the only way to seize power. That in itself may be the hardest task undertaken by a political movement in the history of this country for sure, but it is "close to impossible" while social democracy's supposed goal is impossible.

[miltonwasfried...man]

No, that's not true. Was it through pressuring the government that CUPW won maternal leave? Was it asking Mitch Hepburn nicely that Auto Workers unionized and won decent wages?

Even if your statement were true, most of the Canadian left is putting the cart before the horse - the labour movement is outsourcing nearly all of their political action to the NDP, and so many people on the left focus almost entirely on the NDP and don't do anything to work towards building social movements. Any extraparliamentary working class organizations are reduced to a mere network of lobbyists.



No, they're trying to appeal to bourgeois interests.



No, it is not over the line. They have governed in five provinces, and in all five, they have been happy to implement austerity measures. In fact, they even brag about being better at implementing austerity than the other parties! And the closer they get to to achieving power, the more and more right-wing they become.




I for one am not waiting for the NDP to get elected to start to work towards socialism. First, the NDP has absolutely zero interest in working towards socialism. I was watching the election coverage before the results came in, and the NDP talking head was saying that the NDP has already reassured Bay Street that they won't change anything drastically, won't interfere with their profits, and won't be "clown-shoes radicals like Bob Rae"

And we're relying on these clowns to work towards socialism?

The NDP has had a majority government in my province for the past 12 years now. Can we start working towards socialism yet? Shit, we can't even get anti-scab legislation, and the NDP actually refused to raise welfare rates (essentially slowly cutting them due to inflation) until things got so bad that the Chamber of Commerce had to call for an increase in welfare rates.

Honestly, I can't believe it's 2011 and people claiming to be radical or revolutionary are still drinking the orange kool-aid.

I do not think by any means the NDP is the best or only way to achieve socialism. I am merely saying they are the best option in the government and their left leaning voice is much better than nothing. Trade Unions, student movements, etc are crucial and undeniably important for the socialist cause and must be strengthened in order for progress to be made. They are the pressure behind change, but in our system the government signs off on that change and the NDP are more likely to go along with it. No radical left wing party will get elected in Canada or any other western nation in the near future, so attempting to appeal to more voters is necessary to get in any say at all. Not ideal by any means, but a fact of democracy. And democracy is what we are fortunate enough to have and a militant revolution or dictatorship of the proletariat would never work here without the support of the masses. I am glad that you aren't waiting for the NDP to bring about socialism, and I have no intention on waiting either. We have to work for the communist cause through as many means as possible and the ballot is only one such way.