Protests in Vietnam-Sino-Vietnamese conflict over South China sea

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-13664408


Vietnam's anger over China maritime moves

By Nga Pham BBC News http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/53262000/jpg/_53262926_012148502-1.jpg Hundreds of Vietnamese gathered in front of the Chinese Embassy in Hanoi on Sunday
Continue reading the main story (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-13664408#story_continues_1) Related Stories



Vietnam protests over S China Sea (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-13661779)
Vietnam accuses China in seas row (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-13592508)
Why are South China Sea tensions rising? (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-11152948)


Hong Mai is an 18-year-old student from Hanoi who loves hip-hop music and dancing. Do Trung Quan, 56, is a poet, who lives in Ho Chi Minh City.
They both took to the streets in their respective cities after seeing messages on the internet calling for a "peaceful rally" against China's policies in the South China Sea.
Hundreds of Vietnamese gathered in front of the Chinese Embassy in Hanoi on Sunday despite the blazing summer heat.
Wearing T-shirts with the red and yellow Vietnamese flag, they carried banners reading: "Down with China" and "Stop China's invasion of Vietnam's islands".
The number of people joining the rally was even greater in Ho Chi Minh, where witnesses said numbers had exceeded 1,000.
After being turned away from the Chinese offices, the crowds marched through the centre of the cities, chanting anti-China slogans and singing revolutionary songs.
They were dispersed by police later that morning.
"It was really orderly and peaceful. Everyone was on their best behaviour. And we did not leave behind a scrap of rubbish," wrote a Hanoi-based blogger on Facebook.
Vietnam has accused China of sending surveillance ships to harass and damage a Vietnamese oil exploration vessel "operating deep inside Vietnamese waters" on 26 May.
The Vietnamese government, criticised for a long time by the public for being passive and weak before China, responded strongly to the confrontation, calling it a "serious violation of Vietnam's sovereignty".
China blamed Vietnam, saying its oil and gas operations "undermined China's interests and jurisdictional rights".
China, Vietnam, the Philippines, Malaysia, Brunei and Taiwan all claim territories in the South China Sea. China's claim is by far the largest and includes the Spratly and Paracel archipelagos.
Activists detained Appeals for anti-China demonstrations in Vietnam were spread via Facebook and other social networks, as well as mobile phones - raising concern and suspicion in official circles.
Vietnam is a one-party state and the government here does not tolerate dissent.
Continue reading the main story (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-13664408#story_continues_2) “Start Quote


The South China Sea is a big and difficult issue and should be settled peacefully between the two governments”
Wang Hanling Chinese Academy of Social Sciences
Protests are rare, especially those of a political nature.
Attempts to organise anti-China rallies in the past were quashed by the authorities, with activists detained and even imprisoned.
One of the main concerns of the Hanoi government is public agitation could be exploited by "hostile forces" aiming to topple the regime.
Nationalistic flames, once lit, can be difficult to extinguish.
Vietnam has also tried hard not to offend its neighbour China, with whom it has had a long and close relationship, though turbulent at times.
Deputy Minister of Defence Nguyen Chi Vinh denied the protests in Hanoi and Ho Chi Minh City were officially sanctioned.
"They are totally spontaneous," he said, adding that the crowds "voluntarily" dispersed without causing any trouble.
Despite being peaceful, he said the rallies "should not happen again".
But Wang Hanling, of the Beijing-based International Laws Institute of the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences, said mass rallies would be impossible in Vietnam without the government's consent.
"The South China Sea is a big and difficult issue and should be settled peacefully between the two governments," he said. "Protests of this kind won't help."
But with public pressure building in Vietnam over China's stance in the South China Sea, there are calls for more protests in the near future.
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/48951000/gif/_48951920_south_china-sea_1_466.gif


The oil reserves should be available to all nations of the South China Sea and not divvied up according to their respective military prowess, as it seems China wants to do. It seems quite imperialistic to claim the resources of the entire nation for utilization by their own capital.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Apparently, RevLefters don't care too much about a dispute between two degenerate worker's states. But here's a new update on it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-13707921


Vietnam and China hackers escalate Spratly Islands row

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/53252000/jpg/_53252038_53252037.jpg Hackers have taken up where protesters left off
Continue reading the main story (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-13707921#story_continues_1) Related Stories



Why are South China Sea tensions rising? (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-11152948)
Vietnam protests over S China Sea (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-13661779)
Who's right in South China Sea spat? (http://www.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7941425.stm)


Computer hackers from Vietnam and China have launched campaigns against each other, targeting hundreds of websites including government sites, amid rising anger over a territorial dispute.
Chinese hackers posted Chinese flags on Vietnamese sites, and Vietnamese put images of armed men on Chinese sites.
Both sides claim ownership of islands in the South China Sea.
On the weekend, hundreds of Vietnamese protested against Chinese naval operations in disputed waters.
Apprehension Relations between Vietnam and China have long been awkward, but public protests are extremely rare.
The demonstrations in Hanoi and Ho Chi Minh City followed a confrontation between a Vietnamese ship and Chinese patrol boats last month.
Hanoi accused a Chinese patrol of cutting the cables of a Vietnamese ship conducting seismic research about 120km (80 miles) off Vietnam's coast.
At the time of the incident, China had said that Vietnamese vessels were operating "illegally" and said the country should "refrain from creating trouble".
On Thursday, Vietnam's Prime Minister Nguyen Tan Dung made his first comments on the row, saying Vietnam's sovereignty was incontestable in areas of the Paracel and Spratly island groups.
"We continue to affirm strongly and to manifest the strongest determination of all the party, of all the people and of all the army in protecting Vietnamese sovereignty in maritime zones and islands of the country," Mr Dung said in comments reported by the Thanh Nien newspaper.
The Philippines, Malaysia, Brunei and Taiwan also claim territory in the South China Sea.
The area includes important shipping routes and may contain oil and gas deposits.
Anyway, if this conflict does not prove that China is becoming more Imperialistic, I don't know what will. They are basically trying to strong-arm more than half a dozen other countries in the South China Sea with claims at least as legitimate as their own.

But now it's interesting that private Vietnamese and Chinese "patriots" are getting involved in a nationalist struggle by hacking the websites of another country.

[Threetune]

Apparently, RevLefters don't care too much about a dispute between two degenerate worker's states. But here's a new update on it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-13707921

Anyway, if this conflict does not prove that China is becoming more Imperialistic, I don't know what will. They are basically trying to strong-arm more than half a dozen other countries in the South China Sea with claims at least as legitimate as their own.

But now it's interesting that private Vietnamese and Chinese "patriots" are getting involved in a nationalist struggle by hacking the websites of another country.

Thanks for flagging this up. This is a challenging problem for Leninist revolutionary theory, and discussion about it is vital without rushing to knee-jerk conclusions.
Specifically, it would be instructive to know how workers organisations locally are responding. Are they, for example, demanding that US imperialism and its allies stay out of the argument? Do you have any proposals or solutions that you think might help avoid any further escalation of this potentially dangerous dispute?

[chegitz guevara]

A capitalist imperialist state bullying smaller capitalist states. What's the challenging problem for Leninists? Maybe for MLs who are still under the delusion that Vietnam or China still have socialist property relations, as opposed to private property and the rule of the market.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

The problem is escalating. Vietnam tries to explore oil in its waters, apparently this is a problem for China. I'm all for stopping offshore drilling, but not based on an imperialistic territory claim.

It's not just Vietnam now too, the Filipinos have been complaining that the Chinese are building on the islands without even bothering to negotiate the ownership of them. If the NPA ever actually won their war and seized the state, they would be unable to extract the oil they need to modernize their country because the Chinese decided to arbitrarily annex it all.


China accuses Vietnam in South China Sea row

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/48951000/jpg/_48951918_009889013-1.jpg Both China and the US have increased naval drills in the Asian region
Continue reading the main story (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-13723443#story_continues_1) Related Stories



Hackers step up Vietnam-China row (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-13707921)
Vietnam's anger over China maritime moves (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-13664408)
Why are South China Sea tensions rising? (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-11152948)


China has accused Vietnam of "gravely violating" its sovereignty in an escalating row over disputed waters in the South China Sea.
Beijing said Vietnam had endangered Chinese sailors' lives and warned it to stop "all invasive activities".
It follows an accusation by Vietnam that a Chinese fishing boat rammed cables from an oil exploration vessel inside its exclusive economic zone.
China is engaged in maritime border disputes with several countries.
The South China Sea includes important shipping routes and may contain rich oil and gas deposits.
The Philippines, Malaysia, Brunei and Taiwan also have rival claims in the area; China's claim is by far the largest.
The US has also expressed concern about China's rising naval ambitions.
Escalating dispute China's foreign ministry spokesman Hong Lei said Chinese fishing boats were chased away by armed Vietnamese ships on Thursday.
He said that during the incident the fishing net of one of the Chinese boats became tangled with the cables of a Vietnamese oil exploring vessel which continued to drag the Chinese vessel for more than an hour before the net had to be cut.
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/53252000/jpg/_53252038_53252037.jpg Hackers have taken up where protesters left off
China insists the Vietnamese vessel was operating illegally in the area.
"By conducting unlawful oil and gas surveys in seas around the Wanan Bank of the Spratly archipelago and by driving out a Chinese fishing vessel, Vietnam has gravely violated China's sovereignty and maritime rights," said Mr Hong.
"China demands that Vietnam cease all violations," he said, adding that Vietnam should "not take actions that would complicate and expand the dispute".
Beijing's strong-worded statement followed Vietnam's accusation that a Chinese fishing boat had "intentionally rammed" the exploration cables of a Vietnamese boat - the second such incident in two weeks.
That vessel, chartered by state energy giant PetroVietnam, was conducting a seismic survey inside its 200 nautical mile exclusive economic zone on Thursday, said foreign ministry spokeswoman Nguyen Phuong Nga.
She described the "premeditated and carefully calculated" attack as part of China's attempts to control disputed waters.
"This is unacceptable to Vietnam," she said, adding that her colleagues had met Chinese embassy officials "to express our opposition to such acts".
On Thursday, hackers from both countries planted patriotic messages on hundreds of websites, including government sites.
It follows anti-China protests by hundreds of Vietnamese over the weekend.
Seeking resolution China's ambassador to the Philippines, Liu Jianchao, has insisted China's intentions were peaceful and said that China was not looking for oil in the disputed waters and, therefore, no other country should.
"We're calling on other parties to stop searching for the possibility of exploiting resources in these areas where China has its claims," he told reporters.
"We will never use force unless we are attacked," he said.
The Philippine government has accused two Chinese patrol boats of harassing a Philippine oil exploration ship on 2 March this year.
The Philippines has said it has seen new structures being built on islands which it claims.
"That's part of our exercise of jurisdiction. It's not harassment," Mr Liu said.
He also rejected the involvement of the United States in regional attempts to resolve the long-running territorial dispute.
China prefers to tackle each conflicting claim with each country separately.
Vietnam, Indonesia and the Philippines have led regional efforts to seek a multilateral resolution of the conflict.


Thanks for flagging this up. This is a challenging problem for Leninist revolutionary theory, and discussion about it is vital without rushing to knee-jerk conclusions.
Specifically, it would be instructive to know how workers organisations locally are responding. Are they, for example, demanding that US imperialism and its allies stay out of the argument? Do you have any proposals or solutions that you think might help avoid any further escalation of this potentially dangerous dispute?


Both sides are trying to take advantage of natural resources to help their national economy, and both are doing it using bourgeois institutions to make their claims. There's not even any pretense of solidarity between the governments anymore.

What theorists should gain from this is that China and Vietnam have both gone way too far down the road of nationalistic capitalism already, but in the case of China this is a doubly tragic situation because they are actually bullying Vietnam and other smaller countries out of their rightful claim. Then again, this wouldn't be the first time they bullied their neighbors over border disputes.

I don't know what Vietnamese and Chinese worker orgs are saying, but I'm guessing nationalistic jingoism has already taken over and international working class solidarity is a non-issue, at least based on the actions of fishermen from both countries.


A capitalist imperialist state bullying smaller capitalist states. What's the challenging problem for Leninists? Maybe for MLs who are still under the delusion that Vietnam or China still have socialist property relations, as opposed to private property and the rule of the market.

I think what's challenging is why these Marxist-Leninist states abandon internationalism for nationalism. There is the 1979 war between China and Vietnam after the Vietnamese overthrow of the sociopathic Khmer Rouge, so the conflict between China and India dates to before the reforms instituted by "capitalist roaders".

Although you are correct to point out that today's conflict is more or less a problem of market-oriented states and not traditional Leninist ones. It is hard to understand why western theorists are blind to the fact that the PRC is slowly but surely adopting more and more imperialistic methods. From buying farmland in poverty-stricken african countries to feed their own people, to helping the racist brutes in the Sudan, to apparently claiming an entire sea all for themselves, it should be clear that they have abandoned the content of their rhetoric in favor of mercantile interests.

[Threetune]

That’s what I was wondering, if the revolutionary communists and other workers organisation in the area support or even recognise the various claims as ”rightful claims” as you put it, of their respective “nationalistic capitalist” classes in China Vietnam, Indonesia and the Philippines, Malaysia, Brunei and Taiwan.
Do you think China is the biggest villain of the peace because it is the biggest power in the region? Given that the Chinese state, if not the Chinese capitalist class, is the object of intense western subversion and intrigue, would it not be best to avoid giving more propaganda ammunition to the US and NATO while making an assessment of all the interests of all the workers and poor farmers of all the contending states in the region?

[Obs]

I think what's challenging is why these Marxist-Leninist states abandon internationalism for nationalism.

Neither China nor Vietnam are Marxist-Leninist states. So, y'know, there's that.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

That’s what I was wondering, if the revolutionary communists and other workers organisation in the area support or even recognise the various claims as ”rightful claims” as you put it, of their respective “nationalistic capitalist” classes in China Vietnam, Indonesia and the Philippines, Malaysia, Brunei and Taiwan.
Do you think China is the biggest villain of the peace because it is the biggest power in the region? Given that the Chinese state, if not the Chinese capitalist class, is the object of intense western subversion and intrigue, would it not be best to avoid giving more propaganda ammunition to the US and NATO while making an assessment of all the interests of all the workers and poor farmers of all the contending states in the region?

If this were a case of the US trying to subvert China, I would agree with you. However, it seems very much like China is trying to claim well beyond what any nation would reasonably say is their territorial waters. The USA will only be able to exploit the conflict if China is unwilling to come to a fair deal with its neighbors. There is really no benefit for the working class in terms of defending China's state capitalist claims over the south china sea.


Neither China nor Vietnam are Marxist-Leninist states. So, y'know, there's that.

No, but they at least claimed to pursue policies that were Marxist-Leninist. However they were more than happy to abandon internationalism, in addition to state socialism, in favor of nationalist (even mercantile) Capitalism.

[Threetune]

[QUOTE=Shiva Trishula Dialectics;2139947]If this were a case of the US trying to subvert China, I would agree with you. However, it seems very much like China is trying to claim well beyond what any nation would reasonably say is their territorial waters. The USA will only be able to exploit the conflict if China is unwilling to come to a fair deal with its neighbors. There is really no benefit for the working class in terms of defending China's state capitalist claims over the south china sea.
QUOTE[/]

What? You don’t agree that the US is trying to subvert China? P-lease, where have you been? You’re in great danger of echoing this stuff:

(Aug 14th 2010) The giant nuclear-powered aircraft carrier USS George Washington has docked in a Vietnamese port in preparation for week-long naval exercises between the two countries. They will focus on non-combatant operations such as sea rescues, according to VOA. (http://www1.voanews.com/english/news/asia/US-Vietnam-to-Launch-Unprecedented-Naval-Exercises-100348919.html)

With the U.S. and Vietnam having been at war in the 1970s, no other exercise like this have ever taken place. What’s motivated them now is China’s increasingly belligerent attitude involving its claim to the entire South China Sea that we reported on several weeks ago. (See ‘U.S. and China are Headed for a Generational Crisis War.’ (http://bigpeace.com/jxenakis/2010/07/26/u-s-and-china-are-headed-for-a-generational-crisis-war/)

http://bigpeace.com/jxenakis/2010/08/14/us-vietnam-naval-exercises-in-south-china-sea-rattle-the-chinese/

[Threetune]

The narrative is tired, a big bully intimidating the small folk and that is the dog-whistle for every liberal to come running and heap abuse on China, because it is not socialist enough, because it has thrown off decades of colonial rule, because it enacted its own 'New Economic Policy' and like the Soviet Union it is thriving and developing outside the exploitation, patronage and racism of imperialism and western political control generally.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

The narrative is tired, a big bully intimidating the small folk and that is the dog-whistle for every liberal to come running and heap abuse on China, because it is not socialist enough, because it has thrown off decades of colonial rule, because it enacted its own 'New Economic Policy' and like the Soviet Union it is thriving and developing outside the exploitation, patronage and racism of imperialism and western political control generally.

The narrative may be tired, but is it wrong? Why take China's side over Vietnam and the other smaller, poorer countries in the neighborhood? Lest you forget, Vietnam lost millions fighting American Imperialism, so it's not like China's side is necessarily the anti-Imperialist one. Especially when China has no land mass which would give them a legal claim over the area (aside from some tiny, contested islands that no country really has a legit claim over). It certainly does seem in this case that it is bullying its neighbors.

If American opportunism is your main concern, then you should hope that the PRC can peacefully resolve the conflict in a manner that does not give the countries there an incentive to invite American intervention. This means that the PRC needs to listen and consider the concerns of the people and the leadership of other countries seriously, which it doesn't seem to be showing any willingness to do. If it doesn't, then those countries will keep inviting the US, etc.

[RED DAVE]

I think what's challenging is why these Marxist-Leninist states abandon internationalism for nationalism.You're way ahead of yourself. You need to back track and ask yourself: is there any justification of all for calling these states Marxist-Leninist now or in the past?

RED DAVE

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

You're way ahead of yourself. You need to back track and ask yourself: is there any justification of all for calling these states Marxist-Leninist now or in the past?

RED DAVE

I am calling them that to avoid a semantic debate with stubborn stalinists, in the hope that I can engage them about some of the symptoms of the lack of real Marxist-Leninism in these states :P

[DaringMehring]

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/53252000/jpg/_53252038_53252037.jpg

As I was walkin' - I saw a sign there
And that sign said - no tress passin'
But on the other side .... it didn't say nothin!
Now that side was made for you and me!

[06hurdwp]

How on earth can China justify such a territorial claim?

[Queercommie Girl]

Technically no nation can really justify such a territorial claim since the islands are un-inhabited (except by soldiers).

[06hurdwp]

Technically no nation can really justify such a territorial claim since the islands are un-inhabited (except by soldiers).

Yes, but I said China because they are the ones making that claim :laugh:

[Queercommie Girl]

Yes, but I said China because they are the ones making that claim :laugh:

Actually many nations around the South China Sea have made territorial claims in the region, not just the PRC.

[jake williams]

Actually many nations around the South China Sea have made territorial claims in the region, not just the PRC.
It's an interesting question though. Any idea what the official justification given by the PRC is, given that I imagine that they have to at least pretend to be diplomatic?

[Queercommie Girl]

It's an interesting question though. Any idea what the official justification given by the PRC is, given that I imagine that they have to at least pretend to be diplomatic?


Well, to be frank, I really don't see why the PRC's justification is any less "valid" than any of the other nation's.

Both the PRC and Taiwan (the capitalist Republic of China) state that these waters and islands belong to China because Chinese explorers were the first to map this region, 2000 years ago during the Han Dynasty.

Objectively this is most likely true, given that the Chinese was the most developed and advanced culture in East Asia and Asia-Pacific in those days. But obviously it is absurd, from a socialist perspective, to use this as some kind of political justification today. It's like saying the Americas must belong to Spain because the Spanish was the first to explicitly map it.

[Queercommie Girl]

See: http://links.org.au/node/2355

The history of the various claims is lengthy and contorted. Malaysia has militarily occupied three islands that it considers to be within its continental shelf. Swallow Reef (Layang Layang) has been turned into an island through land reclamation and the establishment of tourist facilities. China and Taiwan claim that the islands have historically been a part of China for nearly 2000 years, discovered during the Han Dynasty in 2 BC and marked on maps compiled from thereon. China also claims that neighbouring countries and European powers took advantage of China’s situation during the revolutionary upheavals to impinge on its sovereignty.

Today, China’s Peoples Liberation Army and the Taiwanese government armed forces are both stationed in several islands, including the largest, Taiping Island.
Vietnam disputes China’s claims on the basis that the ancient Chinese records were about non-Chinese foreign territories and that China did not claim sovereignty over the Spratlys until after the Second World War. Vietnam claims the Spratlys based on international law on declaring and exercising sovereignty. Vietnam currently occupies 31 islands. Brunei's claims to the reef are based on the United Nations Law of the Sea. Brunei claims that the southern part of the Spratly chain is actually a part of its continental shelf and therefore a part of its territory and resources.

The Philippines bases its claims of sovereignty over the Spratlys on the issues of Res nullius (literally "nobody’s property") and geography. The claim was Res nullius as there was no effective sovereignty over the islands until the 1930s when France and then Japan acquired the islands. When Japan renounced their sovereignty over the islands, according to the San Francisco Treaty between Japan and the Allied powers signed in 1951, there was a relinquishment of the right to the islands without any special beneficiary. Therefore, argue the Philippines, the islands became Res nullius and available for annexation. The Philippines did not register these claims until the 1970s and annexed the islands in 1978, calling them the Kalayaan Island Group. The cornerstone of the Philippines claim of the Kalayaan islands is that the Spratlys lie within its 200-mile exclusive economic zone according to the 1982 United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea. The Philippines also argues, under maritime law that China cannot extend its baseline claims to the Spratlys, because China is not an archipelagic state.

[Threetune]

China has no serious interest in oil/gas deposits because expert assessments are that there is nothing worth fighting about and they have always shared the fishing with no more than the normal kinds of disputes. However, China is nervous, with good reason, that if they concede the area they will have America, South Korean, and Japanese etc ‘gun boats’ anchored of their cost again. Historically this is where all military threats have come from. Their stance looks sensibly defensive against imperialist encroachment to me.

[danyboy27]

China has no serious interest in oil/gas deposits because expert assessments are that there is nothing worth fighting about and they have always shared the fishing with no more than the normal kinds of disputes. However, China is nervous, with good reason, that if they concede the area they will have America, South Korean, and Japanese etc ‘gun boats’ anchored of their cost again. Historically this is where all military threats have come from. Their stance looks sensibly defensive against imperialist encroachment to me.


i wouldnt be so sure. China have been recently wasting billion in the canadian tar sand industry, one of the least profitable source of oil avaliable.

Oil is becoming scarce buddy, rumor are going on in my province about drilling, even tho 3 year ago the amount detected was considered insignificant. The number of barrel per day extracted in Mexico and Russia have decreased over the year, and saudi arabia is getting ready to open a new series of well to extract the hard to get oil they had in store for decades.