Greece On The Brink of Revolutionary Situation

[Rakhmetov]

Half a million protesters in Athens - Uprising across the country!

Excellent ... Excellent ... Excellent!!!!

http://www.marxist.com/greece-on-the-brink-of-revolutionary-situation.htm

[VirgJans12]

Greece is really going at it. I think Spain is next. They already had student protests earlier.

[Delenda Carthago]

:glare:

If this is the revolution we ve been giving our sweat and blood all these years, please allow me to miss the premiere...

[Ocean Seal]

What's even more impressive is that Athens only has 750,000 people. So right wingers can't talk about a silent "majority". :laugh:

[Delenda Carthago]

Athens has more than 5 mill. And they were NOT 500.000 yesterday. There were 200.000 the most.

[Ocean Seal]

Athens has more than 5 mill. And they were NOT 500.000 yesterday. There were 200.000 the most.
What really. I thought that Athens was around 750 k with the metro area being 3.5 mil.
So is it an exaggeration of the size of the protest? In any case, it might not be full scale revolution yet, but even in a couple of months I could see a full scale revolutionary movement.

[Delenda Carthago]

What really. I thought that Athens was around 750 k with the metro area being 3.5 mil.
So is it an exaggeration of the size of the protest? In any case, it might not be full scale revolution yet, but even in a couple of months I could see a full scale revolutionary movement.
Really?What kind of revolution is that?

[Ocean Seal]

Really?What kind of revolution is that?
A leftist one. Not because of the protests that happened today but because there is a crisis in capitalism and the bourgeoisie cannot make it go away this time. But then again the future is difficult to predict.

[Rainsborough]

:glare:

If this is the revolution we ve been giving our sweat and blood all these years, please allow me to miss the premiere...

So what kind of revolution are you waiting for?

[Blackscare]

I'm not trying to be snide or anything, but I do find it interesting that (to my knowledge) our only greek member that posts regularly seems to be growing more and more pessimistic. Is that a fair thing to say, AttackGr?

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

I hope that isn't the case, seeing as Greece was one of the first to say no to austerity packages since they were implemented. Maybe AttackGr could give us some insight into the situation as it appears on the ground.

[caramelpence]

Half a million protesters in Athens - Uprising across the country!

Excellent ... Excellent ... Excellent!!!!

http://www.marxist.com/greece-on-the-brink-of-revolutionary-situation.htm

No, Greece is not on the brink of a revolutionary situation. Let me give you some advice - read something other than Marxist.com. Like the WSWS, or really anything else.

[Old Mole]

This is like saying that "I saw lots of people demonstrating against the war in Afghanistan, this probably means the war will soon end."

The latest wave of protests in Greece were inspired by earlier large protests in Spain, so no, Spain isnt next, the protests has already been there.

But I dont think we should underestimate the possibilities of the situation in the PIIGS countries in Europe (and others as well). There has in fact been 9 general strikes in Greece since the beginning of the crisis (if I remember correctly...)

[Os Cangaceiros]

What are the tangible goals of the Greek protests?

This is one thing that the European protests have lacked in comparison to, say, the mid-east protests. Someone like Mubarak leaving power in and of itself is structurally insignificant, but it was tangible and could be accomplished...I don't see that with these protests. Power is defused enough that there is no focal point for the rage, and everything seems very unfocused, very general.

[Lunatic Concept]

And if there was a genuine revolutionary situation, i think we all know there would be immediate intervention to "stabilize" the country. :closedeyes:

[Os Cangaceiros]

Occupied London (http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/) puts the number at about 150,000 in Athens.

It's still a positive development, though. Just the fact that quite a few people are engaged and in the streets is better than, well, if they weren't.

[VirgJans12]

Whatever the number or outcome, this is positive.

I'd still like an update from AttackGr, though. Perhaps he can start a sticky on the matter?

http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/333.jpg

[Comrade_Oscar]

¡Viva la revolución!

[W1N5T0N]

well...I think in Greece's case things are quite complicated. For one, the Greek bourgeoisie, the middle class, have been overspending for decades now...similar to the USA people have been spending way above their income. And so did the government. I think the blame for the crisis lies partly on both sides, because the people and the government should regulate each other in a working democracy. Seems that no one really had a clue that it was all going to be clusterfucked this bad in case of a crisis. Lets hope they can implement social reforms that will bring them on the right...er left way :)

[Pretty Flaco]

You always take some insignificant event and then prop it up to make it seem like we're on the brink of revolution.

EDIT
also, I'm not saying this protest was insignificant, but I am saying that it is most definitely not a revolutionary situation.

[Rainsborough]

I presume then that in the event of a revolutionary event developing in Greece, the 'experts' here would inform us. :rolleyes:

[FSL]

I presume then that in the event of a revolutionary event developing in Greece, the 'experts' here would inform us. :rolleyes:
In the event of a revolutionary situation erupting in Greece, you'd know. It wouldn't go unnoticed.


These protests are indeed very large (though they are basically weekly now, few people join the ones on weekdays). They are also dominated by people who for the most part weren't organized or didn't even care about much before. By people who were the ones giving power to the major bourgeois parties and by extension to capitalists. So that's a good thing.


But, these protests were neither spontaneous nor organized via sites like Facebook. They were promoted shamelessly by all the media, even the libertarian ones, even the far-right ones. Their main slogan at least in its first days were "No parties, no unions, no ideologies" and its main aim was shouting "Thieves" at those "nasty politicians who brought us here".


People are very angry, almost desperate. So they're protesting. But they're also at an almost embryonic level of understanding. To quite a few of them, being a communist or an anarchist is the same to being a member of the governing party. There is no systemic capitalist crisis, just corruption that got out of hand. People who put politics at the center are "enemies that seek to divide" and we are all together, poor and not-so-poor, workers and businessmen against corrupted MPs.

This isn't all a spontaneous sentiment. It is exactly the sentiment the media promote. And it is the sentiment the organized conservatives who are there promote, even by booing leftist parties and organizations that seek to intervene. Some people from a small maoist party (that of course had nothing to do with the parliament, let alone governing) were kicked out by these sort of people.
And these people who claim they have no other allegiance but to the flag and the country, can often draw the youngest or the most "naive" of a crowd with them.


The rulling class might want this so that people let some steam off. It might also want this in preparation for the next day. If hundreds or thousands of people yelling "traitors" isn't a good start for fascism, I don't know what is.
But this is a situation that does exist and we must work within it.
The last few days there is a more intense intervention by unions in these demonstrations, more discussions etc, in an effort to overcome this closet conservatism. There are people who attempt to start fights and kick you out but they are now in the minority and with more work they might be the ones kicked out in the end.



So, in fewer words, the government is facing a ton of trouble. I can't see it lasting another month. It's lost half the support it had a year ago and its strength is quickly eroding. People are to the brink of desperation for very real reasons, their money are not enough and to them this memorandum we've agreed on with the EU and the IMF is like the devil himself.
But still the capitalists are quite comfortable, the gravity of the situation considered.

[robbo203]

Half a million protesters in Athens - Uprising across the country!

Excellent ... Excellent ... Excellent!!!!

http://www.marxist.com/greece-on-the-brink-of-revolutionary-situation.htm


Here we go again. Starry-eyed idealism. I really wish people would not do this sort of thing - pretend that we are at the very point at which the overthrow of capitalism is imminent. Becuase that is what is meant by "being on the brink of a revolutionary situation". What else could it mean or we have so debased the meaning of the word revolution that it could mean anything we choose?

Greece is definitely not on the brink of a revolutionary situiation. Nor is Spain. Ive been on the marches and an attended the encampments here in my local city in Spain and I can assure you that, overwhelmingly, this is not a revolutionary movement intent on overthrowing capitalism. It is fundamentally a reform movement. It has some good things about it - like its bottom-up mode of organisation, its democratic values, its willingness to consider new ideas but the Movement for Real Democracy is not some sort of proto-communist movement intent upon abolishing capitalism, wage labour, money , profits and the rest. The same goes for Greece.

All that you do with this loose and sloppy talk of revolutionary situations is foster illusions and false hopes which are bound to be dashed whenever capitalism resumes normal service - as it will. It takes a lot more to overthrow capitalism than a visceral dislike of the banking fraternity or the political con artists that govern us.

So please lets try to be realistic here. We do ourselves no favours at all by being carried with such talk of revolutionary situations. The most we can say is that it is a potentially fruitful development and leave it at that

[Wanted Man]

This kind of "revolutionary situation" is absolutely the wet dream of the ruling class. They couldn't have imagined or wished for a more loyal opposition. It's perfection for them when you have anonymous, self-proclaimed "leaders" who write deliberately vague manifestos against "corrupt politicians" while asking all forms of organised labour, and all those groups who try to inject some form of that nasty, complicated class consciousness stuff, to fuck off.

After all, they're all the same corrupt politicians and trade unions, who should just stop trying to hijack the spontaneous non-violent, non-partisan and anti-political real democracy movement. We, the people, from workers to students to "non-corrupt" businessmen, are all patriotic Greeks. We only want a few more democratic reforms and we want the crooked bankers and politicians to resign. Then we'll leave the squares and obligingly vote the right back into power. Organised workers who try to bring their consciousness to our neat non-political protests, calling for nonsensical stuff like communism or anarchism and all that, need to fuck off, because this is our square.

The above is, in essence, the line that seems to direct these particular protests, from what I can tell from the posts by FSL, AttackGr and other Greek users. Even if most people demonstrating probably don't care about it that much, it is enough that they turn up for this message and nothing else. Keeping that in mind, I don't see how one can possibly consider that this has anything to do with a revolution, a "leftist" one no less (whatever a "leftist revolution" may be).

The article linked to in the OP is one of the dumbest that has appeared on the IMT site in some time, and that's quite an achievement. I don't know whether the left is reacting perfectly (I suppose they never can do that when you are under the illusion that there is a "revolutionary situation" and the left isn't seizing it), but what exactly are they doing wrong? What would be criminal for the left would be to water down our views and simply come to the square without any demands besides "the current government should resign".

Why should the left not openly present its views in this situation, why should it not offer a way out, and why should it not openly tell the workers that they can do it themselves, and challenge them to organise and take matters into their own hands? How else can you ever get a "revolutionary situation"? Later on in the IMT article, it seems they recognise that as well, which only makes it more confusing. Typically, they are constantly shifting back and forth between left-sounding rhetoric, but with utterly opportunist consequences in practice, all within the space of one article. Brilliant.

Oh by the way, the IMT has predicted a revolution on an almost yearly basis everywhere, in Greece, Iran, etc. I wouldn't take that too seriously. Two years ago, they thought (http://www.marxist.com/greece-historical-defeat-of-bourgeois-party.htm) that the election of PASOK was an expression of class struggle...

[Rainsborough]

In a way I understand what people are trying to say here, and please forgive my obvious stupidity.

But are we now to indulge in armchair criticism - "Its not a revolution, because it doesn't say so on the posters".

Has the Left become nothing more than accademics, and the struggle for socialism no more than an exercise in intellectual discussion?

I always believed that we had to 'make' the revolution, that it wouldn't be handed to us on a plate. But some of the 'intellectual' arguments I'm starting to hear make me wonder if we are now involved in some on-line computer game.

If the words of 'Wanted Man' are true (and I have no reason to doubt him), then we might as well pack it in, accept that there is no future other than that presented to us by the capiltalists and their right-wing subordinates and simply move on. But who wants to right the grave marker;
'Here lies Socialism abandoned through pessimism'

[Wanted Man]

Umm, no, I don't see how you can conclude that at all, and it's certainly not a conclusion that I would subscribe to. It is actually a reason for optimism when you consider that the working class has the ability to break through these distractions, when the union and communist movements can still engage themselves in these protests.

The situation in Greece is of a kind that has loads of obvious potential, and that should be recognised. And it's an obvious instinctive tendency to root for the masses of people on the squares against cops, the government, bankers, etc. But it would be criminally dishonest to sit back and watch the footage on TV in satisfaction, pretending that the revolution is already in progress, that the demands and the level of consciousness are fine as they are, and that the left need only drop what they're doing and tail any massive assembly on a square. That would be much more similar to being engaged in a "computer game".

I'm actually quite optimistic that the working class has the ability to consciously strive for power. That would be a very deliberate political decision, and therefore the negation of the idea that mass forces on the streets and squares are, or should be, "a-political". But this needs to be openly propagated, not suppressed out of fear that people won't like your message. When people feel "betrayed" by the bourgeois parties and bankers (as if they were ever on our side...), that is a unique opportunity to put the "system question" (what kind of system are we living in, where do we want to go?) up for discussion, to put capitalism up for discussion, rather than keeping your mouth shut about it.

Recognition of the fact that the current situation is not a "revolution" unfolding can be a bit disheartening to lefts who really thought that this was going to be it (as they did in every other occasion when it came to Greece), but that only serves to get us talking about what should be happening on those squares, and how we're going to get closer to that next time. And of course we're mostly condemned to talking over here, but for the Greeks it's their daily practice.

[Delenda Carthago]

http://photos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/246810_10150219238973578_692448577_7310135_5578308 _s.jpg

Hellas- Orthodoxy. The biggest fear of the system.


Biba la revolucion companeros!

[Delenda Carthago]

The opportunistic scums of the Left and anarchy in Greece that support that stupid fuckin thing that happens in Syntagma are diggin their own fuckin graves(ours too) and they should be held responsible.

[Delenda Carthago]

I'm not trying to be snide or anything, but I do find it interesting that (to my knowledge) our only greek member that posts regularly seems to be growing more and more pessimistic. Is that a fair thing to say, AttackGr?

Yes.

[Rainsborough]

The opportunistic scums of the Left and anarchy in Greece that support that stupid fuckin thing that happens in Syntagma are diggin their own fuckin graves(ours too) and they should be held responsible.

So by supporting what we see as the possibility of revolution arising from the situation, we are "scum" who should be held responsible for what? Disturbing your rest.:ohmy:

[Delenda Carthago]

So by supporting what we see as the possibility of revolution arising from the situation, we are "scum" who should be held responsible for what? Disturbing your rest.:ohmy:

http://athens.indymedia.org/local/webcast/uploads/fascist_salute_2.jpg

Venceremos!

[Pretty Flaco]

is that man doing a nazi salute?...

[Delenda Carthago]

is that man doing a nazi salute?...

No way! Aint this the "#greekrevolution"? He is probably saluting a friend of his from far away!

[Rainsborough]

No way! Aint this the "#greekrevolution"? He is probably saluting a friend of his from far away!

Haha, very amusing, one photo of a person who may be doing a nazi salute (I thought an open palm gesture was an insult in Greece?), and 'hey presto' the whole crowd are obviously nazis. And here was me thinking it was the nazis who had a thing about seeing reds everywhere. :laugh:

[Delenda Carthago]

Lets see...

You have greek flags, orthodox priests, nazi salutes, banning of communist parties and anarchist groups, aggresive stance towards the unions, anti-politics stance, small tolerance to migrants, no clear agenda, no clear class orientation, populism, the shameless support of the same media that promote the IMF agenda.

But you still see hope. From the other side of Europe. You must have either a pretty damn sharp looking or a pretty big amount of stupidity. Or your definition of revolution looks something like this

http://germanhistorydocs.ghi-dc.org/images/highres_30024511%20copy.jpg

[Rusty Shackleford]

So, would be kind of like late 20s Germany then? i mean, its obvious greece wasnt pummeled in a war but it is being pummeled by loans and a very shitty national government.

but i mean, populism, from what FSL and AttachGr are saying, is on the rise.

the good news is that people are on the street, and from what FSL said, communists and labor unions are intervening more.

if things go on like this, would there be a likelihood of fascist sentiment exploding in the near future? that is, if communists and anarchists dont intervene enough and work hard enough to promote class consciousness and revolutionary sentiment?

if this just turns into another egypt, im going to be disappointed. Not to say the egyptian struggle has produced great things, but it has produced a junta that is barely different than the NDP dictatorship. Greece already has a living bourgeois democracy that actually was kind of democratic. Greece is a page ahead of egypt in that regard. If it winds up just kicking out PASOK and whatever coalition in power it probably could just kill the movement.

thoughts? does this have any relevance to greece or am i talking out of my ass?

[FSL]

Populism is on the rise if by populism we mean some vague "pro-little man" sentiment that has no class orientation and offers no real way out.
Fascism is not on the rise but I can't exclude anything from the table right now.

There is a group of capitalists that wants... I guess UKIP or Lepen-like policies. A national currency, defiance to foreign oppression (but acceptance of local oppression of course). It mixes that with a mildly leftist agenda of helping the weak etc.

Some segments of what is generally considered "left" do seem rather carried away even as they see the strange support all this gets from the media (you have live streaming of the protests, reports, radio shows done from there etc). They focus on the spontaneity of most of the protesters which they consider the most important thing of all.

It's wrong to completely abandon all these people as that could lead to a pretty nasty situation and it's wrong to just clap at them when they yell "thieves". Don't get the impression they're all nationalists, racists or far-right, devout christians. These people are in the minority but they do exist exactly because this has no real direction. Most are just your normal, average people who honestly believe they are doing something very nice by "waking up".
These are the same people who for ages were giving their surplus labor to their bosses without any complaint.
We knew it wouldn't all just suddenly make sense to them. Of course we can make this tilt our way but it's not easy or a given.


As to the Egypt question. The main aim of many workers or self-employed people is to see the government fly away on a helicopter. So our model is Argentina, not Egypt. Most of them are too angry to consider what will come next. But if this government fails (it seems more like a zombie right now) and another one is formed doing the same things, it will follow the same path sooner or later. The thing is that,where we are now, any bourgeois government will take measures that will hurt deeply all of the workers. Things are not simple for them either.

[Hebrew Hammer]

After reading the thread title, remembering that the situation in Greece and conditions there haven't been good for quite sometime and then reading AttackGr's posts I can say this thread is a pretty big let down if not concerning/worrying.

[tachosomoza]

People underestimated the protests of Arab Spring as well. I'm staying tuned. This could be the straw that breaks the bourgeois camel's back. Spain? Greece? These are major players in their neck of the woods. I'm not going to say that the collapse of capitalism is imminent, but still...it's interesting how far stuff has come since this time last year.

[bcbm]

its too early to call this a revolutionary situation but i also don't think it makes sense to say there is no potential there, if even half of what i have been reading is true. i am sure reactionary elements are there as well as people who are not "fully conscious" or whatever... but i wonder what people here think a "revolutionary situation" will look like in the real world? it won't be just brave leftists or workers fighting cops in the streets and taking power, it will be a big fucking mess and things will be chaotic and uncertain. fsl says that "In the event of a revolutionary situation erupting in Greece, you'd know," but i am unsure if this is the case. i don't think anyone here knows the formula for revolution or what the "steps" leading to it look like (if there are any). maybe these demonstrations are the start, maybe not, but we won't know until much later.

[Lacrimi de Chiciură]

Less than a year before the US Declaration of Independence, Jefferson wrote that he was "looking with fondness toward a reconciliation with Great Britain." History would indicate that the masses will go through this reformist movement before realizing the material imperative of revolution. Of course shouting at parliament won't bring down the government, and bringing down the government in itself won't bring socialism.

A lot of people are being politicized for the first time. Protesting shows they are looking for answers. That's why revolutionaries need to intervene politically and patiently explain and convince people that social revolution is the only real possible solution to the crisis.

[Rainsborough]

Lets see...

You have greek flags, orthodox priests, nazi salutes, banning of communist parties and anarchist groups, aggresive stance towards the unions, anti-politics stance, small tolerance to migrants, no clear agenda, no clear class orientation, populism, the shameless support of the same media that promote the IMF agenda.

But you still see hope. From the other side of Europe. You must have either a pretty damn sharp looking or a pretty big amount of stupidity. Or your definition of revolution looks something like this

http://germanhistorydocs.ghi-dc.org/images/highres_30024511%20copy.jpg

Firstly that picture gives an intimation of what will come if some sit on their asses and do nothing.
Secondly, you seem quick to pour scorn on others, but as a Greek on the ground, may I ask in all due respect what you and other Greek leftists are doing to take advantage of the situation?

[Delenda Carthago]

I dont think that I can do many things in this "movement". I m not used to have to hide my identity in order to not be bullyed. Its something that I m not putting up as a person. Opportunism is not my cup of tea.

But even if I was ok with this, somewhere that they are opposed to unions but are fine with orthodox priests, where is my position? What space is there for me to do anything? If there were a neonazi movement, should I join it in order to spread the "influence"?Cmon dog...

And its no coincidence that the most serious communists and anarchists are keeping a distance from it all. I even am surprised that FSL, who is a KKE member says that there should be a presence, since KKE was the first one to stay away. Papariga spoke on NET tv half an hour ago, and insisted on that position.

A big gathering of people are not always a movement. Never EVER a revolution came when ideologies are hiden under the carpet, never a revolution happened when lack of knowledge of history of struggles was the ideal.Never a revolution happened when people gathered and demanded...pretty much nothing. There are people in there that want the minimize of the public sector next to public sector workers. Bosses next to workers. Right wingers next to left wingers. Migrants next to nationalists. In the best occasion, nothing will happen out of it.In the worst...

[bcbm]

Never EVER a revolution came when ideologies are hiden under the carpet, never a revolution happened when lack of knowledge of history of struggles was the ideal.Never a revolution happened when people gathered and demanded...pretty much nothing.

and never have they succeeded, so the field is still pretty much wide open as to how things can go down

[Rainsborough]

I dont think that I can do many things in this "movement". I m not used to have to hide my identity in order to not be bullyed. Its something that I m not putting up as a person. Opportunism is not my cup of tea.

But even if I was ok with this, somewhere that they are opposed to unions but are fine with orthodox priests, where is my position? What space is there for me to do anything? If there were a neonazi movement, should I join it in order to spread the "influence"?Cmon dog...

And its no coincidence that the most serious communists and anarchists are keeping a distance from it all. I even am surprised that FSL, who is a KKE member says that there should be a presence, since KKE was the first one to stay away. Papariga spoke on NET tv half an hour ago, and insisted on that position.

A big gathering of people are not always a movement. Never EVER a revolution came when ideologies are hiden under the carpet, never a revolution happened when lack of knowledge of history of struggles was the ideal.Never a revolution happened when people gathered and demanded...pretty much nothing. There are people in there that want the minimize of the public sector next to public sector workers. Bosses next to workers. Right wingers next to left wingers. Migrants next to nationalists. In the best occasion, nothing will happen out of it.In the worst...

Fair enough, but all across Europe, let alone the rest of the world, the workers are milling around in leaderless confusion. Traditionally it is the left that they have looked to for that leadership, but where are those 'leaders' to be found? Not on the streets amongst the protesters. No now we seem to want only recognisable left wing revolutionaries in a recognisable revolution. What was it Lenin said about using the tools available?

[Tim Finnegan]

Fair enough, but all across Europe, let alone the rest of the world, the workers are milling around in leaderless confusion. Traditionally it is the left that they have looked to for that leadership, but where are those 'leaders' to be found? Not on the streets amongst the protesters. No now we seem to want only recognisable left wing revolutionaries in a recognisable revolution. What was it Lenin said about using the tools available?
The problem isn't a lack of leadership, it's the very perception that some external leadership is necessary, which you insist on perpetuating. Proletarian revolution is a process of self-emancipation, of the working class become its own "leadership", and not the lifting of an intellectual messiah-clique to the heights of political power; that is a coup, not a revolution.

[Delenda Carthago]

Fair enough, but all across Europe, let alone the rest of the world, the workers are milling around in leaderless confusion. Traditionally it is the left that they have looked to for that leadership, but where are those 'leaders' to be found? Not on the streets amongst the protesters. No now we seem to want only recognisable left wing revolutionaries in a recognisable revolution. What was it Lenin said about using the tools available?

December 08 was leaderless too. Matter of fact, as far as I know, it was the first big scale uprise of that kind in the western world. Were there ideologies on Decemeber? Yes and no. Were the ideologies banned? Fuckin NO!

[Rainsborough]

The problem isn't a lack of leadership, it's the very perception that some external leadership is necessary, which you insist on perpetuating. Proletarian revolution is a process of self-emancipation, of the working class become its own "leadership", and not the lifting of an intellectual messiah-clique to the heights of political power; that is a coup, not a revolution.

Spoken like a true Anarchist.

[Tim Finnegan]

Spoken like a true Anarchist.
Flattery will get you nowhere, young man.

[Rusty Shackleford]

The problem isn't a lack of leadership, it's the very perception that some external leadership is necessary, which you insist on perpetuating. Proletarian revolution is a process of self-emancipation, of the working class become its own "leadership", and not the lifting of an intellectual messiah-clique to the heights of political power; that is a coup, not a revolution.

The leadership is of the working class. They are organizers to help make the working class a more powerful force. there may be numbers, but there must be an edge or it is like putty. The very concept of the union is base on this! collective organized action!

say the working class rises up spontaneously. That is the point many people first politicize themselves. what if they take a reactionary stance? what if some workers end up trying to fight for the past while others fight for the future.


December 08 was leaderless too. Matter of fact, as far as I know, it was the first big scale uprise of that kind in the western world. Were there ideologies on Decemeber? Yes and no. Were the ideologies banned? Fuckin NO!

May 68, France?

December 08 was fucking intense from what i read about it. and a damn good job. but it didnt make a revolution. And a single event doesnt make a revolution. class war isnt just one thing, it isnt just insurrection or beating the bourgeoisie bloody. it is all of that and more. a demonstration or all out insurrection are just different faces of class struggle. and it must be continued on. there must be follow up.

And having a recognized leadership is a way to assist in that process. To keep people in the "loop" so they dont forget about what is going on.

Am i just talking about Parties? no. Im talking about any organization be it anarchist or leninist or marxist that eventually grows into becoming the largest sector of the politically active and fighting working class.

[Le Socialiste]

From what I've been gathering, there is clearly a sense of anger over the consequences of the financial crisis being all but forced on the Greek people (in the European theater), while all the while their national government has proven itself to be the subservient lapdog of the EU (more specifically, Germany). This discontent, while present, lacks focus. The political scene is so utterly bankrupt that all previous trust in the parties have been long cast away. It really seems like a full-blown free-for-all, with organizations/parties scratching their heads about how far to go in support of the masses. What's more, if what we've been hearing is true, the left has little to no real presence/influence in this particular movement "wave". I would be the last person to ever advocate a party/individual-led uprising. The people need to organize themselves into a collective body, through which their demands can be heard and decided upon democratically. As far as I'm concerned, if such a mass grouping were to take root, they should go for the government itself and forcibly dismantle it. But this isn't what's happening. The movement lacks such vision, such focus, that it leaves these people open and vulnerable to just about any ideological spin. I fear these demonstrations can very well be taken over by rightist groups - if the people allow them to. It all comes down to where the people's favor lies, and if they're more inclined to listen to some right-wingers/fascists spew nationalistic lies, they'll (unfortunately) follow them. But I don't know what the political/idealogical makeup is of the demonstrators. Can our comrades in Greece tell us? Or has this already been touched on?

[Tim Finnegan]

The leadership is of the working class. They are organizers to help make the working class a more powerful force. there may be numbers, but there must be an edge or it is like putty. The very concept of the union is base on this! collective organized action!

say the working class rises up spontaneously. That is the point many people first politicize themselves. what if they take a reactionary stance? what if some workers end up trying to fight for the past while others fight for the future.
But what does "of the working class" actually mean? I would argue that any "leadership" would have to emerge organically from within the working class, both its constituent members and its attributed role being generated by the experience of class struggle. What Rainsborough suggests, on the other hand, is some pre-formed "left" existing apart from the working class, which the working class, emerging from its witless confusion, will raise above its head as the realisation of the proletarian revolutionary subject. That is a messianic approach to the practice of working class revolution, not an emancipatory one.

[tachosomoza]

But what does "of the working class" actually mean? I would argue that any "leadership" would have to emerge organically from within the working class, both its constituent members and its attributed role being generated by the experience of class struggle. What Rainsborough suggests, on the other hand, is some pre-formed "left" existing apart from the working class, which the working class, emerging from its witless confusion, will raise above its head as the realisation of the proletarian revolutionary subject. That is a messianic approach to the practice of working class revolution, not an emancipatory one.

They should be sufficiently educated before the revolution to ensure that they don't repeat history. Also, we'd have to ensure that they dump the old social constructs that have destroyed many a revolutionary movement.

[Rusty Shackleford]

But what does "of the working class" actually mean? I would argue that any "leadership" would have to emerge organically from within the working class, both its constituent members and its attributed role being generated by the experience of class struggle. What Rainsborough suggests, on the other hand, is some pre-formed "left" existing apart from the working class, which the working class, emerging from its witless confusion, will raise above its head as the realisation of the proletarian revolutionary subject. That is a messianic approach to the practice of working class revolution, not an emancipatory one.
Im going to take this discussion out of here. I wasnt thinking before i posted it and it could derail the thread pretty quickly. so, ill pm ya.

[Os Cangaceiros]

May 68, France?


Hell, you don't even have to go back that far... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_civil_unrest_in_France)

[Rusty Shackleford]

Hell, you don't even have to go back that far... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_civil_unrest_in_France)
thank you for proving my point :lol:

Hell, even argentina early last decade could be seen as more dramatic than france, with all the factory takeovers and what not.

[Delenda Carthago]

May 68, France?

December 08 was fucking intense from what i read about it. and a damn good job. but it didnt make a revolution. And a single event doesnt make a revolution. class war isnt just one thing, it isnt just insurrection or beating the bourgeoisie bloody. it is all of that and more. a demonstration or all out insurrection are just different faces of class struggle. and it must be continued on. there must be follow up.

And having a recognized leadership is a way to assist in that process. To keep people in the "loop" so they dont forget about what is going on.

Am i just talking about Parties? no. Im talking about any organization be it anarchist or leninist or marxist that eventually grows into becoming the largest sector of the politically active and fighting working class.
I never said December was a revolution. And yeah fuckin May 68 was one, but it wasnt leaderless. Now, believing that it might work or not, its a different conversation...

[Coach Trotsky]

Yes, but do we sit around and wait while the workers spontaneously evolve to understand the need for self-emancipation (or don't, because no one provided leadeship by asserting such an idea)? Do the most politically advanced working people have no duty to provide leadership to the masses of working people...or should we leave them high and dry so they have to learn everything for themselves the hard way and almost certainly fail in their struggles?
What happens when no one is providing revolutionary leadership is that the only options for the masses to follow is enemy leadership!
Do you think our enemies hesitate to provide leadership? Of course not. They seek to win. So should we.

[Rainsborough]

Proletarian revolution is a process of self-emancipation, of the working class become its own "leadership", and not the lifting of an intellectual messiah-clique to the heights of political power; that is a coup, not a revolution.

I agree in the most part. Socialism has to come from below, not be imposed from above, but how will it begin if there is no leadership to spark it? The current situation in Greece seems to be more of a reactionary revolt, capitalists protesting about other capitalists, more ‘nazi’ in flavour than leftist. But whether left or right surely what we are seeing there supports the anarchist theory of spontaneous, leaderless revolution? Now we of the left may not like the direction that it appears to be taking, but what right have we to complain when we refuse to lead? Do we honestly think that true socialism will drop from the skies, or rise from the ground, unbidden? You, personally, may have read all the socialist writers; maybe you can quote from them at will (as quite a few on this forum can do), but how many of the rank and file working class can claim the same? And how many will, without some form of leadership to point them towards the right authors and ideas?

[tachosomoza]

I agree in the most part. Socialism has to come from below, not be imposed from above, but how will it begin if there is no leadership to spark it? The current situation in Greece seems to be more of a reactionary revolt, capitalists protesting about other capitalists, more ‘nazi’ in flavour than leftist. But whether left or right surely what we are seeing there supports the anarchist theory of spontaneous, leaderless revolution? Now we of the left may not like the direction that it appears to be taking, but what right have we to complain when we refuse to lead? Do we honestly think that true socialism will drop from the skies, or rise from the ground, unbidden? You, personally, may have read all the socialist writers; maybe you can quote from them at will (as quite a few on this forum can do), but how many of the rank and file working class can claim the same? And how many will, without some form of leadership to point them towards the right authors and ideas?

Reading the socialist writers doesn't necessarily make a good revolutionary leader.

[Rainsborough]

Reading the socialist writers doesn't necessarily make a good revolutionary leader.

No, but it's a start, or have you a better idea?

[Tim Finnegan]

I agree in the most part. Socialism has to come from below, not be imposed from above, but how will it begin if there is no leadership to spark it? The current situation in Greece seems to be more of a reactionary revolt, capitalists protesting about other capitalists, more ‘nazi’ in flavour than leftist. But whether left or right surely what we are seeing there supports the anarchist theory of spontaneous, leaderless revolution? Now we of the left may not like the direction that it appears to be taking, but what right have we to complain when we refuse to lead? Do we honestly think that true socialism will drop from the skies, or rise from the ground, unbidden? You, personally, may have read all the socialist writers; maybe you can quote from them at will (as quite a few on this forum can do), but how many of the rank and file working class can claim the same? And how many will, without some form of leadership to point them towards the right authors and ideas?
I'm not suggesting that the working class will spontaenously become revolutionary communists, I'm saying that it isn't the role of revolutionary communists to take control of working class power. If there is leaders, it should be people who are good at leading, that is, of organising and coordinating collective, democratic action- chairpeople, not presidents, as it were- rather than militant intellectuals (organic or otherwise) whose primary claim to significance is simply that they are intellectuals. The role of that group, rather, is to educate and to agitate, to provide options, programs, and so forth which the working class may democratically act upon, if they so chose. The Greek left should not be trying to take control of the movement, but, rather, to encourage the Greek proletariat to take control of the movement themselves, and to channel the energy of the movement into a mass movement of the working class-as-a-class, rather than into the buttressing the local gaggle of revolutionary sects.

[Rainsborough]

If the working class were homogeneous ideologically, there would be no need for leadership. But the objective possibility of revolution will not wait until all reach a class-conscious intellectual level. Only the revolutionary party can utilise the revolutionary opportunity, given a class only partially aware of its revolutionary task. (Tony Cliff: ‘Lenin and the Revolutionary Party’ May 1973)
http://www.marxists.org/archive/cliff/works/1973/05/lenin.htm

[bcbm]

how can the revolution develop if we are not there to lead it:crying:

[Tim Finnegan]

If the working class were homogeneous ideologically, there would be no need for leadership. But the objective possibility of revolution will not wait until all reach a class-conscious intellectual level. Only the revolutionary party can utilise the revolutionary opportunity, given a class only partially aware of its revolutionary task.
(Tony Cliff: ‘Lenin and the Revolutionary Party’ May 1973)
http://www.marxists.org/archive/cliff/works/1973/05/lenin.htm
But in the Soviet Union, the Bolsheviks actively contained and even suppressed the concious mass-movement of the working class- manifested through the resistance of the soviets and other workers' organisations to the centralisation of political and economic power- to defend the political primacy of the Leninist party; how then can you argue that the Leninist party is the necessary precursor of such a mass-movement? It simply does not match up with Leninist practice.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Have there been a lot of workplace occupations in Greece recently? I would think that tactic would be widely utilized, but I haven't heard much about it. I guess there's a new strike coming up soon...occupations & just generally trying to shut down any semblance of an economy that Greece has left would seem like a priority.

[AmericanSocialist]

How strong is the socialist movement in Greece?

[Delenda Carthago]

Have there been a lot of workplace occupations in Greece recently? I would think that tactic would be widely utilized, but I haven't heard much about it. I guess there's a new strike coming up soon...occupations & just generally trying to shut down any semblance of an economy that Greece has left would seem like a priority.

You mean workers taking over and run the workplaces?

[Os Cangaceiros]

You mean workers taking over and run the workplaces?

Ultimately that would probably be the end game, yeah. In the meantime though I think that school and workplace occupations that provoke confrontations between labor and the authorities would be something to consider. Take a page out of the 1930's factory occupation movement in the midwestern USA! (when the police were greeted w/ chunks of metal shot from firehoses when they tried to evict workers from a factory).

[Delenda Carthago]

well, there are no factories left in Greece anyway so... Cafeterias and calling centers are not very prosperous for that...

[Devrim]

Am i just talking about Parties? no. Im talking about any organization be it anarchist or leninist or marxist that eventually grows into becoming the largest sector of the politically active and fighting working class.

There used to be a time when people who called themselves marxist understood that the term 'party' meant something like the 'the largest sector of the politically active and fighting working class', and wasn't a term used by tiny groups who plainly weren't parties.

The term party once referred to communist organisations during a specific period of class struggle. It seems to have been forgotten now.

Devrim

[Os Cangaceiros]

well, there are no factories left in Greece anyway so... Cafeterias and calling centers are not very prosperous for that...

Take over the call centers and cafeterias! And the bowling allies! And the Greek McDonalds!

I'm positive that there are still shipyards in Greece. Those would be good targets.

I don't know man. I'm not in Greece. I don't know much about Greece, just what I read in the leftie press. My opinion has no bearing on the situation. But I do think that as long as the economic motor still runs in Greece (whatever that motor is...a lot of times people in the USA get this defeatist attitude of "well we're all service industry workers now, we don't produce anything", but the diffusion of capital/finance capital, labor and technology just obscures a situation in which the majority of people are working class, and CAN control their own destinies if they really wanted to IMO) things will continue perpetually onward, despite large protests, or urban guerillas, or the KKE, or whatever.

[Rusty Shackleford]

There used to be a time when people who called themselves marxist understood that the term 'party' meant something like the 'the largest sector of the politically active and fighting working class', and wasn't a term used by tiny groups who plainly weren't parties.

The term party once referred to communist organisations during a specific period of class struggle. It seems to have been forgotten now.

Devrim
i was referring to the KKE

the PSL isnt a party yet. it is simply a tendency.

[Devrim]

the PSL isnt a party yet. it is simply a tendency.

I don't mean to quibble, but what exactly does the 'P' stand for? Your website sees it somewhat differently:


About the Party for Socialism and Liberation
The Party for Socialism and Liberation is a working-class party of leaders and activists from many different struggles, founded to promote the movement for revolutionary change.

Devrim

[Rusty Shackleford]

I don't mean to quibble, but what exactly does the 'P' stand for? Your website sees it somewhat differently:



Devrim
Was the Communist Workers Party of america a party when it called itself a party? What about the Communist Party of America?

it is a name. Almost every leninist organization has "party" in its name. even the American Party of Labor has "Party" in its name. But neither the APL or PSL are actual "parties" yet only because they do not have support of a large portion of the working class. they are not a "party in the affair of class warfare"

so, just because we have "Party" in our name does not make us one. We are building to become one, and also, modern american lexicon makes things different. It helps to distinguish ourselves as a political organization.

[pastradamus]

According to the capitalist economist Constantine Gregoriev, Greece is going to need another EU "Bailout". Out of the pan, into the fire.

[FSL]

According to the capitalist economist Constantine Gregoriev, Greece is going to need another EU "Bailout". Out of the pan, into the fire.
Yes, this is a given.


Something quite important I think as it could offer a real glimpse of a side of the events here to everyone outside.


Here we have what might look like a couple of ordinary citizens swearing and yelling at some people from PAME who were there to give out leaflets and talk to the people. One of them is even taping the event.
But later on he uploads it to a youtube account belonging to a fascist organization called Greek Fist whose main aim is according to its identity (and believe me I'm quoting) "preventing mixtures in our race's blood".

nragKC80f5Y

Can you see how these people act, what they' re trying to get at?
To everyone else they are a couple of independent-minded people. They are free of party-affiliaton, prejudice etc. They' re exactly how they should be. If someone raised their tone, if there was a quarrel, then people there would instictively side with those who seem "independent", not with the guys who are there for propaganda purposes.

No one there knows them as fascists so they can pose as "indignant citizens" and try to provoke anyone whom they don't really like to an argument he will have lost before it even begins, given the circumstances and the general attitude.

And all this is helped by the stance other "leftists" adopt which is to hide any affiliation they might have and go along with the media propaganda that demands non-partisanship. The "people's assembly", especially on weekdays when few people show up, is dominated by people from Syriza or Antarsya who even when they're alone, refuse to admit the truth, that they're not that independent after all. This assembly -with their votes- just reproduces the "all parties, all unions are the same" nonsense, bans "party propaganda" and people who are fascists have no real trouble in putting these "democratic" decisions in effect by booing and hoping to provoke you in a fight against simple people.

[pastradamus]

Have there been a lot of workplace occupations in Greece recently? I would think that tactic would be widely utilized, but I haven't heard much about it. I guess there's a new strike coming up soon...occupations & just generally trying to shut down any semblance of an economy that Greece has left would seem like a priority.

No, unfortunetly Greece, like Ireland and Portugal seem to be at the behest of the EU and its citizens demoralised from cut after cut and bailout after bailout. I like seeing the people on the street and the protests but its just not enough. I dont think you should be expecting to see workers takeovers on the scale of IMF-Devastated Argentina anytime soon.

[Rainsborough]

Yes, this is a given.


Something quite important I think as it could offer a real glimpse of a side of the events here to everyone outside.


Here we have what might look like a couple of ordinary citizens swearing and yelling at some people from PAME who were there to give out leaflets and talk to the people. One of them is even taping the event.
But later on he uploads it to a youtube account belonging to a fascist organization called Greek Fist whose main aim is according to its identity (and believe me I'm quoting) "preventing mixtures in our race's blood".

nragKC80f5Y

Can you see how these people act, what they' re trying to get at?
To everyone else they are a couple of independent-minded people. They are free of party-affiliaton, prejudice etc. They' re exactly how they should be. If someone raised their tone, if there was a quarrel, then people there would instictively side with those who seem "independent", not with the guys who are there for propaganda purposes.

No one there knows them as fascists so they can pose as "indignant citizens" and try to provoke anyone whom they don't really like to an argument he will have lost before it even begins, given the circumstances and the general attitude.

And all this is helped by the stance other "leftists" adopt which is to hide any affiliation they might have and go along with the media propaganda that demands non-partisanship. The "people's assembly", especially on weekdays when few people show up, is dominated by people from Syriza or Antarsya who even when they're alone, refuse to admit the truth, that they're not that independent after all. This assembly -with their votes- just reproduces the "all parties, all unions are the same" nonsense, bans "party propaganda" and people who are fascists have no real trouble in putting these "democratic" decisions in effect by booing and hoping to provoke you in a fight against simple people.

Interesting. So how do we counter this problem, for to simply withdraw from the protests, gives the facsists a clear path, since thy excel at this kind of masquerade?

[FSL]

Interesting. So how do we counter this problem, for to simply withdraw from the protests, gives the facsists a clear path, since thy excel at this kind of masquerade?
You shouldn't withdraw. What people like them are trying to do is either get you kicked out by deceiving the crowd or have you give up.
One thing that must be done is tell people about things like this. It will make them more hesitant to just accept the spontaneity of someone who's yelling at unions if they know it might be someone "in disguise".
And you just need to keep calm and carry on doing what you did as best as you can. If you don't fall in their trap, there isn't much more they can do. At least that's what seems to be our only choise to me.


Generally on the protests now. Along with the people in Spain who removed their tents from the squares, our indignados aren't doing much better. A few hundred people showed up on Friday's protest from what I heard. Many of them affiliated despite what they would say.
This has lost quite some steam since its first days, as it was probable, but will probably draw a much larger crowd on Sunday.

A big day coming up is Wednesday I think with a general strike. I'd like to see how the whole "no parties, no unions" thing goes then. This could help in fighting any conservative misconceptions.


Lastly, our second bailout for 2012-4 is all but ready. In exchange a new law was brought to the parliament with billions more in cuts so that we won't miss our deficit target. PAME has proposed a 2-day strike when discussion begins, I'm guessing sometime this or the next week.

[chegitz guevara]

Okay, my understanding is that the Parliament is preparing a tunnel to escape in case the masses storm the Parliament.

You have talk of setting up a parallel national government.

How is this not a revolutionary situation? It may not become a revolution, but the situation is ripe.

Of course, if you refuse to have your own organization to fight against those who conquered the world through superior organization, even if you have a revolution, you won't keep it.

[Os Cangaceiros]

There certainly appears to be a very deep resentment in Greece. There was some poll posted on Occupied London that was conducted in Greece, and concluded that somewhere in the neighborhood of 50% of Greeks approve of violence towards those in power! That's crazy.

From a comment on OL:



Giorgos Lianis has just tendered his resignation as a member of PASOK’s central committee, is keeping his parliament seat and will continue to serve as an independent, leaving the ruling PASOK party with 155 MPs. Athens News reports: “Commenting on the public anger over the austerity measures on the Alter television channel late last year, Lianis had declared his intention to leave politics in order to be able to safely “walk the streets.”


A lot of times what's happening in Greece seems to be obscured by people both on the right (fascists, non-leftist liberals, etc.) and left (urban guerilla types), but I definitely think there's a lot of potential, at least judging from half-way around the world.

[Delenda Carthago]

Today,after a long day of riots and of course a strike, the prime minister is exprected to anounce elections.Now Greeece is on the bring of a revoliutionary situation.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Live stream from the main square (im assuming) in Athens.

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/livestreaming-greek-general-strike-and-parliament-blockade

[Tim Cornelis]

Question for those living in Greece. what is the "ratio" between communists, anarchists and fascists (nationalists, xenophobes) and 'average Greeks'?

How prominent is the far left? They certainly seem to be much bigger in Greece than in any Western European country.

[Delenda Carthago]

Question for those living in Greece. what is the "ratio" between communists, anarchists and fascists (nationalists, xenophobes) and 'average Greeks'?

How prominent is the far left? They certainly seem to be much bigger in Greece than in any Western European country.
big enough

[Sentinel]

AttackGr, what did Papandreou say in his speech to the nation? Is he going to form a new goverment, or will there be new elections? I'm trying to search online but it's a pain in the ass.

[Delenda Carthago]

AttackGr, what did Papandeou say in his speech to the nation? Is he going to form a new goverment, or will there be new elections? I'm trying to search online but it's a pain in the ass.
actually it was a fuckin fail.we are not going to elections(despite what they let us believe the whole afternoon). its only going to be a goverment reform.

[Sentinel]

I hope that will mean continued protests until the asshole resigns. Why am I getting a dejavu of Mubarak and all those guys.

[PhoenixAsh]

he said he would do everything to push through austerity measures. He is going for a government of national unity but his position is growing weaker. Even in his own party there is increased opposition to his plans...though whetever the hell these guys from Pasok really want is not known to me but it can't be much better.

[El Rojo]

seems like a near sure that the government is fucked, and the economy is in freefall.

however, is there enough organisation / willingness in the working class for a proletarian take-over? that is the important question, i think.

anyway, solidarity to the greek conrades!

[The_Outernationalist]

If an ACTUAL revolution is underway...Let's hope the anarchists who'd most certainly seize power can make this last longer than the Paris Commune this time. every time they've even been close to power in the past or possessed power, they've collapsed into a heap of failure.

[antisys]

Hi everyone. I am not very optimistic at all that there is any ray of light indicating there is a revolution underway in Greece. Some things may change (Yorgaki could go away, but other stooges of the transnational elite and the system will take his place, bearing a more left or right mask).

The majority of Greek people may be indignant at what is going on against their lives everyday, but they usually don' t have a clue about the reasons for it and what is at stake maybe for generations to come, mainly because of the vast brainwashing of the mainstream media, but of the "alternative" media as well, (leftist and libertarian). The (mostly miserable) Left in Greece promote the view that the problem today is the "odious debt" (that is a symptom of the crisis in european South and not the cause of it!), or -once more!- they are generally speaking about "hierarchy", "capitalism", "power", "revolution" etc., without trying to explain what specific institutions, structures and relations have led to the crisis, (e.g. the catalytic role of the integration of Greece and the "PIIGS" in the European Union in dramatically accelerating the crisis rarely is mentioned as a cause of it) so that a solution which unites the people around the demand for the exit from the current crisis, and towards a TRUE revolution in the future is discussed and chosen democratically.

So, what we need today, to my mind, is a way to truly inform people, not just with buzzwords and action for action, about the system and the way we are integrated into it, and to radicalize them by creating now along with them, step-by-step, from below, the institutional and cultural foundations for a revolutionary change in the future, in which the majority of people know what they fight about, without "avant-guards" that may lead to new elites as has happened with the classic revolutions of the past.

[FSL]

Okay, my understanding is that the Parliament is preparing a tunnel to escape in case the masses storm the Parliament.

You have talk of setting up a parallel national government.

How is this not a revolutionary situation? It may not become a revolution, but the situation is ripe.
You should change your sources.


The government is indeed collapsing. The prime minister wanted a reshuffle with many "technocrats" and a new vote of confidence on Sunday but his plans seem to be canceled by resignations from his MPs.
Pasok MPs have organized a meeting this afternoon and other people in the party seem eager to claim the top spot.

This is still not a revolutionary situation (if we're talking about a class revolution and I want to think we are). But at this point the most likely outcome seems to be calling early elections. There is no way I could see this government voting and applying cuts and taxes. They'd risk getting lynched every single day.
These elections will most likely mean a national unity -representing all of the bourgeois- government. They can be used as a stepping stone to a truly revolutionary situation.



Yesterday's strike was impressive, especially regarding people's morale.
There is a demonstration called by the CP this afternoon to stress the importance of more strikes if these cuts do ever get discussed in the parliament but also to ask the government to quit and set an election date.

And to add regarding yesterday's strike: PAME's demostration ended in Syntagma, the main square, where it met a few thousands of the "Indignados" who were there trying to block MPs from entering. I think the whole thing went very well, most people were very happy we came in large numbers and for a few hours the only thing you could hear were our shouts against capitalists (in which some people joined) and guerilla songs (yeah, really). For the first time, CP's MPs had their own little block in the demo with a sign that read "We are fighting along PAME, side by side with the people" or something to that effect. No "thieves" chant. Points for us.

[chegitz guevara]

What can we do to help?

[chegitz guevara]

Also, I think we may be conceiving the term, "revolutionary situation" differently. I don't mean it to mean that it is imminent, but rather, the factors for it to become possible now exist. The government has lost legitimacy and the people have lost fear. Indeed, it now seems the government fears the people. All that needs to happen now is a spark.

Of course, as has happened all too often in the past, the movement could be betrayed, it could burn out, or could be crushed.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

I think living in the nearly baron wasteland that has been the United States for the last 3 decades can make nearly any kind of activity on a mass scale seem revolutionary.

[Rainsborough]

I think living in the nearly baron wasteland that has been the United States for the last 3 decades can make nearly any kind of activity on a mass scale seem revolutionary.

:confused:

[scarletghoul]

Also, I think we may be conceiving the term, "revolutionary situation" differently. I don't mean it to mean that it is imminent, but rather, the factors for it to become possible now exist.
Yes. Badiou would class as an "event" what is happening currently in Greece.

[Rakhmetov]

Today,after a long day of riots and of course a strike, the prime minister is exprected to anounce elections.Now Greeece is on the bring of a revoliutionary situation.


I posted the OP on June 6. You wrote this yesterday June 15-- that is 9 days after I posted the OP. What is 9 days, man? Greece was on the brink of a revolutionary situation for a while now. :tt2:

[FSL]

Remember what I said about the government collapsing?
Well, it kinda was back then. But then it stopped.


The things that happened in just the past 36 hours seem more like a joke:
Yesterday evening the Prime Minister proposed a national unity government with the conservatives.
Negotiations broke down last night after about 5 hours and three phonecalls.
This morning he was ready for a government reshuffle that would include technocrats like the greek former vice president of the European Central Bank.
Then that was cancelled as, by noon, a bunch of MPs resigned and others started criticizing him on last night's failure. By 4 pm an extraordinary meeting of the party's MPs was called.
Then, he offered his main party opponent the No2 position in the government and went on with the whole "redistributing assignments" fiasco but apparently without any technocrats as not one would dare -or care- join.

Keep in mind that this is what we know *as of now*.
Things might be radically different in a few hours. Or minutes even.



What I make out of all these is that they truly are lost.
They have no idea who will vote what, who will implement it, how will he do that. They might want elections but they have no time for them. And they know that the day after these elections they will keep on having the exact same problems.

Markets all around the world were down today and analysts largely attributed that to fears of default in Greece.That's probably why the EU and the IMF went out today and said our next few billions will be on their way, as scheduled. They're trying to prevent a market meltdown.
Our numbers are looking pretty bad. We missed last year's deficit target by not much, 10.5% instead of 9.5%. But this year we're missing it by a ton, with a target of 7.5% we're doing worse than we did last year and some economists claim the deficit will reach 13% if we carry on like this.
To give you a clue of the recession, industrial production was down 11% on April compared to the same month last year. They'll need to start pogroms in the public sector to reduce the deficit and -if they do that- we would plunge to the levels of recession seen in Latvia a couple years ago (-17% annual growth rate).
The chance of banks "extending" our loans (but still getting all their money just at a later date) and thus giving us some "breathing space" is slim as markets, rating agencies, the European Central Bank, all would consider that a default.

This is pretty interesting as a situation. But it's quite scary living it.


When it comes to the conditions Lenin argued defined a "revolutionary situation" we probably do match one of them so far. The people don't want to be governed the way they were and the capitalists can't govern them the way they did.
I'm sticking to my earlier guesses that these people will soon call it a day and quit, setting a date for elections.
They do seem desperate enough to just keep on going but it would leave me and millions of others speechless.
And them in intensive care units, I'd think.

[Olentzero]

I thought this article (http://leninology.blogspot.com/2011/06/athens-working-class-resistance-breaks.html) over at Lenin's Tomb was rather insightful - basically, 'Lenin' is saying that has the potential to become a revolutionary situation if the response of the left is equal to the task. The neo-Nazis and fascists are taking action, of course, but he's not throwing his hands up in despair like AttackGr because of it; on the contrary, he argues it should be seen as part of the "rising tide of class struggles globally" in which the revolutionary left has an obligation to involve itself.

I think FSL has nailed it - it's pretty clear the government can't govern in the old way, and the Greek people don't want them to govern in the old way. Classic definition of a revolutionary situation. The question now is: Is the Greek left equal to the task? To put it crudely, I certainly fucking hope so.

[Delenda Carthago]

The neo-Nazis and fascists are taking action, of course, but he's not throwing his hands up in despair like AttackGr because of it
Do me a favor please and dont put words into my mouth, especially of this kind. Thank you.

[Delenda Carthago]

I posted the OP on June 6. You wrote this yesterday June 15-- that is 9 days after I posted the OP. What is 9 days, man? Greece was on the brink of a revolutionary situation for a while now. :tt2:
Α. 9 days can change the world if its the right time. The past 9 days for you maybe were quite boring, but here it was insane.

B. The whole "govermemnt falls" was not because of the stupid Syntagma sq. thing, but despite of it actually.

[Olentzero]

But you still see hope. From the other side of Europe. You must have either a pretty damn sharp looking or a pretty big amount of stupidity. Or your definition of revolution looks something like this [picture of Nazis on the march]How, then, am I supposed to interpret this? Because it sure as hell sounds like you've already written off the whole protest movement.

[Thirsty Crow]

What are the reactions from, nominally, revolutionary organizations? Does KKE and folks from the unions put forward a revolutionary programme or do they stop at mere rhetoric?
Also, do these orgs actively connect their struggles with international orgs?

[Zav]

I look at Athens and see a bunch of angry wage-slaves who merely want to reform the system. I see no actual revolutionary movement. If and when there are 200,000 people marching around with red and/or black flags shouting "Workers of the world unite!", then you can call it a revolution.

[Delenda Carthago]

How, then, am I supposed to interpret this? Because it sure as hell sounds like you've already written off the whole protest movement.
Clearly you havent understood the basic nature of Greece right now. The revolutionary movement did not started 3 weeks ago in Greece. There are forces that been struggling for decades around here. The thing that happens in Syntagma sq. the "Real Democracy Now!" movement, is something completly different. Its something that works against the revolution. In that post I was reffering to that.

[Rusty Shackleford]

What are the reactions from, nominally, revolutionary organizations? Does KKE and folks from the unions put forward a revolutionary programme or do they stop at mere rhetoric?
Also, do these orgs actively connect their struggles with international orgs?


http://inter.kke.gr/News/news2011/2011-06-16-info

[thälmann]

i think it is the beginning of a revolutionary situation right now. missing it would be not a good idea. but on the other hand there is no organisation or movement, strong enough to lead a revolution. the whole antiautorian space isnt big enough, the little communist parties and groups are also too weak. i think the kke would be big and powerful enough, but it seems not that they are willing to lead a revolution, with all what that would mean.

[Olentzero]

Clearly you havent understood the basic nature of Greece right now. The revolutionary movement did not started 3 weeks ago in Greece. There are forces that been struggling for decades around here.I am well aware of that, actually, since the ISO has a sister group (ΔΕΑ) in Greece, and the CWI has an organization (Ξεκίνημα). I do my best with my limited Greek to keep up with what they're saying.
The thing that happens in Syntagma sq. the "Real Democracy Now!" movement, is something completly different. Its something that works against the revolution. In that post I was reffering to that.But are the Syntagma protests the only thing that are happening? My impression is that this is not the only thing, and it is therefore a mistake to judge the entire situation in Greece on the basis of the Syntagma protests. I've read your posts over again and you really do not make a clear differentiation between Syntagma and whatever else may be happening in Athens, or the rest of Greece. I have no intention of putting words in anyone's mouth, but your lack of clarity is not my fault.

[Rainsborough]

If an ACTUAL revolution is underway...Let's hope the anarchists who'd most certainly seize power can make this last longer than the Paris Commune this time. every time they've even been close to power in the past or possessed power, they've collapsed into a heap of failure.

Siezing power is one thing, holding on to it is another. And historically the anarchists have not been to good at that.

[Delenda Carthago]

I am well aware of that, actually, since the ISO has a sister group (ΔΕΑ) in Greece, and the CWI has an organization (Ξεκίνημα). I do my best with my limited Greek to keep up with what they're saying.But are the Syntagma protests the only thing that are happening? My impression is that this is not the only thing, and it is therefore a mistake to judge the entire situation in Greece on the basis of the Syntagma protests. I've read your posts over again and you really do not make a clear differentiation between Syntagma and whatever else may be happening in Athens, or the rest of Greece. I have no intention of putting words in anyone's mouth, but your lack of clarity is not my fault.
Jesus dude! The post you posted was a comment of mine about the SYNTAGMA thing. Not the whole situation in Greece. I am NOT despered about Greece, I am very pessimist about what happens in SYNTAGMA. Of course, many things are happening in Greece. Ok?

[Olentzero]

ΟΚ.

[Iraultzaile Ezkerreko]

I look at Athens and see a bunch of angry wage-slaves who merely want to reform the system. I see no actual revolutionary movement. If and when there are 200,000 people marching around with red and/or black flags shouting "Workers of the world unite!", then you can call it a revolution.

...You'll probably never see a revolution then, because the working class is so varied in its opinions and constantly shifting in it's consciousness. By the time you see what you are describing, the vanguard will already have accomplished it's role as the leading edge of revolutionary consciousness in the working class. The point, however, is for us to be able to recognize a revolutionary situation which might result in the images you're talking about but might not if the left is not up to their historic role.

[Olentzero]

Hey, so I'm hearing that the aganaktismenoi (the outraged) in Syntagma Square have begun holding Tahrir-style popular assemblies and reaching out to the organized working class. Any of our Greek folks able to confirm and/or expand on this?

[Black Sheep]

:lol::lol::lol:

By the time you see what you are describing, the vanguard will already have accomplished it's role as the leading edge of revolutionary consciousness in the working class. Same will happen with 99% of the working class then, i imagine.One day they will wake up, and the vanguard will have made their revolution.

A true revolution of the working people. :P

[Tim Cornelis]

If the revolution breaks out in Greece, which is not very likely, the rest of Europe and the US is not ready. In the Netherlands there are maybe 2 to 4,000 revolutionary leftists. It will fail anyways.

[bricolage]

If and when there are 200,000 people marching around with red and/or black flags shouting "Workers of the world unite!", then you can call it a revolution.
if we're honest here social revolution probably won't look like a hyped up mayday march.

[RedMarxist]

I already made a thread for this but I found this on the ICC's website and its concerns both Spain/Greece.

http://en.internationalism.org/icconline/2011/special-report-15M-spain/real-democracy-now

apparently the assemblies are being manipulated from within. Quotes:

"in the first few days, faced with the avalanche of assemblies, ¡Democracia Real Ya! (DRY) had no option but to keep a low profile, but this did not mean that it did not try to gain positions in the key commissions of the camps and to spread its positions about citizens reforming the system, such as its famous “Ten Commandments” and similar things; of course, without openly showing its face and defending apoliticism in order to prevent those with other political opinions spreading their ideas, while DRY were left free to spread theirs (unsigned)."

"At the Puerta Del Sol they (DRY) accepted the complaints of the shopkeepers and hastened the dismantling of the camp in order to leave an “information point”. They filtered the interventions at the assemblies, which were already only discussing the proposals of the commissions, which they controlled. They openly presented their positions as the expression of the movement, rather than having them discussed in the assemblies"

"However it has been in Seville where the DRY has exposed itself most clearly. It shamelessly asked for a blank cheque from the assemblies, to do with what it wants according to its whim. It has even dared to call upon the participants to hold their assemblies under its initials."

etc.


I'd like to here from people who've participated in the Greek or Spanish assemblies. How do the assemblies work? Are they being manipulated in anyway? Are you really planning to replace the state with a national assembly? am I just delusional?

I've got OCD about this movement, so live with it! :lol:

[Zav]

if we're honest here social revolution probably won't look like a hyped up mayday march.
It probably won't.
My point was that the Greek "revolution" doesn't have a radical direction.

[IndependentCitizen]

And if there was a genuine revolutionary situation, i think we all know there would be immediate intervention to "stabilize" the country. :closedeyes:

The European Union already has a military unit trained to counter major rioting situations which the native country has issues controlling. And from what I've seen, they look more like Darth Vader than the U.S riot cops.

[Os Cangaceiros]

The European Union already has a military unit trained to counter major rioting situations which the native country has issues controlling. And from what I've seen, they look more like Darth Vader than the U.S riot cops.

hard to believe that they look more militarized than cops here

http://assets.theagitator.com/wp-content/uploads/CM-Capture-11.png

[RedMarxist]

I could've sworn those guys are army, not police. Why would police need olive green camouflage uniforms? armored Humvee vehicles?


The Police logo's everywhere are just a cover. they are army sent to suppress the people.'bout time the popular assemblies also form a popular militia to fight 'em off.

[ColonelCossack]

there were half a million protesters in London on the 26th of march. But we're not, sadly, on the brink of revolution.

[Olentzero]

My point was that the Greek "revolution" doesn't have a radical direction.It has the potential for a radical direction, and that potential is steadily - and rapidly - increasing. There's an article (http://socialistworker.org/2011/06/21/whats-stake-greece) today at Socialist Worker by Antonis Davanellos of the International Workers' Left (DEA) in Greece on what's going on - but here are some of the highlihts.

Trade unions are breaking with PASOK. The movement in the squares is helping to isolate the bourgeois parties from popular support. Electric utility workers are moving to rolling 48-hour strikes, and the two main union federations have called a 48-hour general strike for June 27 and 28.

More importantly for the Greek left, the Communist Party of Greece (KKE) has begun to open up to a policy of common action with the other radical left formations Syriza and Antarsya, starting with the daily struggles that are happening now and including a common intervention in the next elections - which could happen sooner than anticipated if Papandreou loses the confidence vote that's happening either today or tomorrow.

This is big. Personally I think it's fucking fantastic. And moreover, I think this is no time for pessimism. The left has a huge job to do in Greece and it would be a mistake to ignore what's going on simply because the direction isn't as completely radical as some of us would like it to be... just yet.

[RedScare]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-13832164

I think this is pretty important. The people are already extremely enraged over the cuts that have been made, and now it looks like a second round of serious cuts is coming, which will probably only inflame the situation.

[Os Cangaceiros]

http://www.athensnews.gr/sites/athensnews/files/articles/portal_articles/2011/06/papandr_rompuy_10079901%20%28600x400%29.jpg

what a couple of stooges! :lol:

Man. It really is farcical. So what, two is the lucky number here? One bailout wasn't enough, so the problem is one of scale? Is this really going to stop Greece's economy from crashing? No, I don't think so. At best it's life support. And who's going to pay for it? Spain and Portugal? How about Ireland? The Eurozone is so fucked.

The interesting thing is that normally I would just write this off as another IMF "remedy" that they've been "curing" impoverished nations in the global south with (i.e. loans for restructuring favorably to capital), which is certainly happening with Greek public assets, but in this case I think they do have a real vested interest in making sure Greece doesn't go down. That would be no bueno for Europe.

[Astral_Disaster]

Revolutionary situation, but who's revolution? What party will assume command, and who will be their leadership? Will there be a program in place to revolutionize other countries, or are we going to get more of this communism in one country BS?

[Rainsborough]

I could've sworn those guys are army, not police. Why would police need olive green camouflage uniforms? armored Humvee vehicles?


The Police logo's everywhere are just a cover. they are army sent to suppress the people.'bout time the popular assemblies also form a popular militia to fight 'em off.

During the 1984-85 Miners Strike in the UK, it is well known that on leave soldiers were recruited as police to help against the Miners. Putting a rat in a different uniform doesn't hide the fact that he's still a rat.

[Black Sheep]

It has the potential for a radical direction, and that potential is steadily - and rapidly - increasing. There's an article (http://www.anonym.to/?http://socialistworker.org/2011/06/21/whats-stake-greece) today at Socialist Worker by Antonis Davanellos of the International Workers' Left (DEA) in Greece on what's going on - but here are some of the highlihts.DEA is a split of a split from the greek SWP,and a member of SYRIZA.
Their optimism borders foolishness.


More importantly for the Greek left, the Communist Party of Greece (KKE) has begun to open up to a policy of common action with the other radical left formations Syriza and Antarsya, starting with the daily struggles that are happening now and including a common intervention in the next electionsWhat?!Any source?

You have to understand that the main sentiment of all of these protests,is
1)Save greece, our country from the bad imf
2)Punish the politicians, those thieves.

That's it.Methinks that the only positive,if any, outcome will be the radicalization of a portion of the apolitical protesters and an increase on the left wing parties' members and the anarchist self-organized councils.

[Olentzero]

DEA is a split of a split from the greek SWP,and a member of SYRIZA.
Their optimism borders foolishness.How does the one follow from the other? Furthermore, what excessive optimism is there in the article? Are there not rolling 48-hour strikes in the electricity sector? Have the two main unions not called a 48-hour strike for next week?

I do admit having misread one part of the article - the KKE is opening up towards common action with SYRIZA and ANTARSYA, but has not stated it will work in a common effort in the elections. The article states that the DEA - as part of SYRIZA -
supports a united front of the left involving the KKE, SYRIZA and ANTARSYA, starting from daily struggles and extending to a common intervention in the next electionsMy apologies for the error.

[chegitz guevara]

You have to understand that the main sentiment of all of these protests,is
1)Save greece, our country from the bad imf
2)Punish the politicians, those thieves.

That's hardly a bad place to be. The next step is:

only socialist workers revolution can save us.

The Bolsheviks won on a program of Land, Peace, Bread.

[human strike]

I was personally rather unsatisfied by the analysis offered by comrades in this thread - no offense, I couldn't myself explain what was happening in Greece and Spain any better. Talking about imminent revolution, far-right reaction and/or populism all seems kind of lazy and not really at all satisfactory. The insights offered in these talks I found pretty useful though: http://eagainst.com/articles/the-rise-of-the-indignant-spain-greece-europe/